GCR: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly
Posted by Rastis in Baptist Life, Church & Missions
It is amateur hour in Baptist politics. Perhaps if I mess things up too badly David can fix it [I realize that in using that name it applies to half this blog—any David will do]. My friends assure me that until Orlando has come and gone that it is pointless to talk with Baptists about “other things.” If you can’t beat them, join them.
Terry Robinson, Executive Director for the Baptist Convention of New York, wrote a forward, if not bold, opinion piece concerning the GCR report.
He asserts that churches need to accept the report on the basis of what it does propose rather than on what is missing from it since he believes that “bold changes” and not “minor adjustments” are needed in order to impact ever growing lostness. His opinion is interesting and noteworthy as he is outside the south and in proximity to the largest urban center in the county. As one in five Americans live within 150 miles of NYC, it goes without saying that he affirms the necessity to target our urban centers. Rather than the traditional plant using a transplanted core, Robinson thinks that there is a need for indigenous leaders. These leaders are for the churches, whose focus should be making reproductive disciples, and for the convention, as they provide a diversity outside the usual brain trust. His article is quotable, and contains many productive suggestions. It is well worth reading. My personal views on the GCR can be classified as optimistically cynical.
Optimism
I am optimistic that the “bill” will pass. After all, what Southern Baptist wants to go on record as voting against the Great Commission? Now, had they called it “Restructuring the SBC Resurgence” it might not have fared so well. I am optimistic for two reasons. First, I think it will pass. Second, I like what is in the report. Here are a few summaries of various components:
Component #2 NAMB should be streamlined and “released” to plant churches and they should do so in major cities.
Component #3 The IMB can apply a people group strategy to work with similar people groups regardless of geography.
Component #4-5 The Cooperative program is here to stay, get on the bandwagon. 2.5% does not reflect true kingdom priority.
Component #6 We will boost CP giving to the IMB to 51%
What is not to love? The report indicated that there was interested in intentionally focusing our efforts and resources outside of the Bible-Belt with special emphasis on urban centers. Perhaps I am just naïve, but I fail to see what is so controversial about actually focusing monies dedicated to the great commission on the greatest areas of need.
Cynicism
Here are some reasons to hold off on confetti:
- The GCR appears to be the Baptist equivalent of TEA parties. Our structures have become bloated by too much money. This has been brought into sharp focus through the economic down turn. Perhaps the most visible case of this is in IMB downsizing. In a real sense the GCR is in fact about the Great Commission. In an equally real sense, the GCR is simply about money. Since there is not as much money, the bulkiness of denomination structures becomes more apparent and is scrutinized as a result. Perhaps the economic woes will help the SBC to become more strategic.
- Even though the report will probably pass, nothing [except the flow of cash] will really change. We can vote for the Great Commission till the cows come home, but if our churches continue to operate with myopic priorities, and if associations and state conventions skim off their piece of the ever shrinking pie before it ever reaches then end of the line, then the only thing that we have accomplished is to make the people at the end of the line more efficient with what is left over. If individuals, churches, associations, and state conventions don’t start operating from a kingdom focused mindset, our voting record will only condemn us. Furthermore, there exists a certain gap between those who fund and those who receive funds. In the process to go with the IMB, we had to find five partner churches. As I visited these churches, I had many people ask me what the IMB did, who they were, and who they were affiliated with [many might have similar questions about NAMB, see number 4]! These churches had always given to Lottie Moon, and many of their congregants had no clue of their connection with IMB! Even if we fix the current funding woes, if we remain on this trajectory where churches are completely disconnected from the institutions and individuals they support, the results will not be long lasting. My prediction is that the GCR report will pass but that the churches at the local level will remain unchanged for the most part and we will be revisiting this issue shortly.
- What have we been waiting for? Why have we ever been doing things this way (Give to state conventions, which give to NAMB which give to states to give to churches)? Why is the report viewed—by some—as earth shaking news (or any kind of news at all)? Anyone who has been paying attention for more than a minute can tell you that the least reach and most densely populated areas of the country lie outside the south. The very fact that we need to have a committee tell us what is evident is a bit depressing.
- Perhaps it is too little too late. The convention is currently suffering from a brain drain of young leaders [thought it may not realize it yet]. This is due in part to the nature of the institutions. Just consider church planting. Of all of the planters I have talked with who went through the Jeremiah Project, the vast majority of them had few positive things to say about it. In other news, the Acts 29 network is growing by leaps and bounds. You can like it or hate it, but its happening. While it may not appear to be all that problematic right now, how will that change things for Southern Baptists a generation or two from now? When I was postponed a year in departing to the field, I decided to be active in working cross culturally. Someone thought that what we were doing was simply reinventing NAMB’s wheel. One very disappointing call later, I realized that they were not doing this [I describe it in a disaffected post which should be read hyperbolically]. Our early movement suffered from a lack of funds. We had to re-strategize and structure ourselves so that we didn’t need the money. That turned out to be a blessing in disguise. One member of our organization contacted the state convention to request funding and the moment we sat down with the state folks, I regretted the decision. There were simply so many layers of strings, expectations, and reporting, that it was not worth the hassle. We started formulating our methodology in a way which they could understand and accept, but it was a step away from everything we were previously doing. The only payoff would be that they would support it financially. Thankfully, we do not have any of their money, and are freely operating according to methodology which makes better sense in our context. We are still working with some SBC churches as well as associations on the local level. The state and national levels, however, have not been effective partners. What I learned through that experience was how little I understood NAMB. I have two degrees in Jesus from Southern Baptist schools, and have been involved in various facets of convention life for 10 years and knew next to nothing about how NAMB operated and what all they did. All my life I assumed that they were simply the stateside counterpart to IMB and functioned in the same way.
- We are going to spend a TON of money to go to Orlando and discuss how much we need to be good stewards… Perhaps we should all stay home and put that money towards missions and local church planting. How much does it cost to put on the pastors conference and convention with personal expenses included? It is the age of technology, can we do it remotely?
What Needs to Happen (the world according to Rastis)
- We need a paradigm shift away from fulfilling great commission = our church is full and fulfilling the great commission = we have enough money, to fulfilling the great commission = impacting lostness regardless of geography, demographics, and “turf,” and even if they will not end up at our churches.
- We need to close the tithing to ourselves loop hole. Money that goes to NAMB needs to be for church planting off the southern grid. That means that there is not a circle between the state –> NAMB –> state. If the state wants to plant churches, they should set aside money for that. If we give to NAMB, we need to cut them loose from promptly returning it to our coffers.
- That said, NAMB needs to go through a “New Horizons” transitions. They need to be a church planting agency which targets lostness and unreached people groups. NAMB personnel should not be serving in churches or state and associational offices. They need to be able to work unilaterally if needed.
- We need to apply Geiger’s simple church “razor” in evaluating and planning future convention missions plans. We need to figure out what we are called to do and put everything behind it. If some facet of our work is not related to our goals and calling, then we need to get rid of it. Sentimentality is not a strategy.
- Get rid of state conventions. They are the middle man. They are too disconnected form local work to be of real service and they do not have enough of a bird’s eye view to provide strategy, guidance, and resources for reaching beyond the borders of their states to places they know little or nothing about [the north east, the west, etc]. Local mission and church planting work can be funded through local associations who can look out for their area. NAMB can serve as a national strategy partner to guide us beyond our church saturated borders into the pockets of lostness.
- Get rid of ERLC. Is an explanation warranted?
- We need the seminaries to decentralize so that training can be more effectively done on the “field” both for those who are sent and for those who are indigenous to those areas. This is the age of technology; you can’t tell me that the classroom is the primary form of training. The cooperative church planting efforts of the seminaries and NAMB need to not only be traditional plants [part time support, evangelism, gather core group, launch, planter becomes pastor], but catalytic as well [planter raises up leaders and doesn't pastor the planted church].
I will close with a quote uncovered by a friend of the blog: “if the Church concentrates its endeavors in saving itself it will lose itself, for it will break a law of the Kingdom: “He that saveth his life shall lose it and he that loseth his life shall find it.” (E. Stanley Jones “The Unshakable Kingdom and the Unchanging Person”)
So what of the current system? “It’s broken,” says Robinson, “and denominational employees should stop defending what is not working just to keep a paycheck. And I count myself among that number.” As I said, a bold article. Did I mention that he is the head of a state convention?



One word of advice: DUCK!!
Regarding 6: Yes, an explanation is needed. I, for one, really appreciate the work of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission. I believe it is important for Baptists to speak to the great moral and social issues of our day with a clear voice and a capable spokesman. It is both ministry and evangelism as the culture needs to know that we as Christians are not of this world but exist as salt and light within it.
One might ask, “Why cannot the churches do this on their own?” But that same question could be asked of any of our cooperative endeavors. The fact is, by specializing in this work, the ERLC can more effectively speak the Word of God in the arena of national policy issues which clearly affect our daily lives. I am happy to support it. In fact, one thing I have always appreciated about Southern Baptists is that we are unafraid to take a bold and principled stand concerning ethical issues. If this is where GCR is headed, count me out. I love the Great Commission too much to stop teaching society to observe all the things that Jesus commanded, and the ERLC is a great resource for doing exactly that.
Rick,
Hermeneutically, I disagree with the concept of linking the work of the ERLC to the Great Commission. In the grammatical structure of Matthew 28:19, the word “teaching” is on the same level as the word “baptizing,” which are both linked as fleshing out the concept behind the word “make disciples.” We do not baptize society in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. We baptize individuals. By the same token, I do not see any warrant for teaching society to observe all things Jesus commanded us. We teach individuals. Now, of course, we do this in the context of societies and cultures. But, nowhere do I find, in the NT, that our task, as the Church (or as churches), is to change culture or transform society. Yes, we are to be salt and light. But, I think this is much better accomplished by individuals in their daily interactions with those around them than by a central organization telling everyone else what they should believe on this or that ethical or political issue, or by lobbying in Washington. And, I would rather see my CP dollars go toward truly making disciples (of individuals).
I simply DO NOT think this thing will be adopted, at least not this year. I’ve long been an advocate of dissolving the state conventions, but most I’ve talked with in the Deep South are really quite happy with the status quo, and I do not believe there are enough outside the South to push the GCR through.
I’m opposed to making NAMB a church planting entity because I believe churches should be planted by other churches. An organization which had its worth evaluated by the number of churches planted is wont to have numbers to share at conventions.
I’m opposed to the IMB working in the States with foreign Nationals. That is a job NAMB can do quite well.
I’m opposed to any attempt to dismantle the ERLC.
Now, these comments are from a person generally in favor of restructuring. How do you think those invested in protecting the status quo are going to respond.
David M,
Thanks for the warning. I am packing heat today. I guess I do that every day… I am carrying the big ones today
Rick,
I could gripe about how hopeful I was when “we” had the white house senate and congress and how jaded I am with politics after eight years of nothing and the institution of economic socialism…
But lets just assume that political advocacy is a valid ministry for the sake of discussion. It comes down to money. The GCR wants to boost giving to IMB to 51% of CP funds. In return, they are asking people to get the ball rolling by cutting 1% of their institutional budget. I am neither a mathematician nor an economist, but barring letting some tele-evangelist into the tent to multiply our money, we are going to have to cut other stuff as well.
So here is the question: would you rather send more people to the darkest places on earth to spread the gospel or have the ERLC?
We have to figure out what we are here to do, and do that. Granted, we will–and should–keep many ministries which may not be directly connected church strengthening or church planting. Seminaries, for example, should stay. They supply pastors for existing churches and supply church planters and missionaries. So, they may not be directly and immediately connected (thought I would love to see that change), but they are in the process. I struggle to see how ERLC is part of fulfilling the great commission. Maybe it would be better for someone who believes in it as an institution to make that case.
Mike,
so if NAMB is not going to plant churches, what do you view their role to be?
All,
For the record, I use venues like these to push the envelope. If we never think outside the box, we will never act outside of it.
Perhaps this would be a good discussion question: If you were to design a system to link thousands of churches and focus their efforts, what would that system look like? Would it look like the convention? Towards what would you focus their efforts?
Mike,
Do you believe the IMB should be a church planting entity?
Mike said, I’m opposed to making NAMB a church planting entity because I believe churches should be planted by other churches. An organization which had its worth evaluated by the number of churches planted is wont to have numbers to share at conventions.
I’m opposed to the IMB working in the States with foreign Nationals. That is a job NAMB can do quite well.
I’m sad to hear these things within SBCdom. I think Rastis’ words from one of his blogs really hits at the heart of what you’re addressing here:
This is the mentality that I keep running into–Turf.
…
The problem, is that when you look at our city in terms of “red dots” (think of the IMB world evangelization map), that we have many red dots just waiting for the gospel, and most churches are only thinking about themselves, their Sunday event, and their bottom line. If reaching a red dot doesn’t help them, then they aren’t interested. We, the association, needed to change and become more proactive. When I went looking for partners, I looked to those organizations closest to us-state convention and NAMB-and realized that they were operating under our old paradigm. They wait on the initiative of the churches. The red dots can’t wait. This isn’t really anyone’s turf since most of these people are not candidates for the churches in our city, not to mention the fact that most of the churches are in the suburbs and most of the internationals are in town. What is true of the world (that all of the resources and the green dots are in the west) is also true of our city. The resources and believers are out of town and all of the major areas of lostness are in town.
It doesn’t matter to me whose name is on the check or who gets credit … but we need to get past respecting churches, associations, and states turf. We need to be proactive in our mission–unilateral if necessary.
…
The goal of a missionary is to take the name of Christ where it is not known. By definition, that is no one’s turf.
Even if we do not all agree on what should be dismantled and what should be kept, can we agree that there is a growing chasm between our churches and our institutions? Ask any church member what ERLC or NAMB does, and you will probably come up empty. For that matter, you could probably ask most seminary students and pastors and receive the same answers. Assuming everything gets “fixed” now, this distance will create funding problems down the road. How do we address these issues?
I don’t mean to bring down the party, especially with Rastis packing heat and all, but I have been told by a well-placed person within the denominational structure (who did not give me permission to use his name) that the report we have in our hands has been drastically revised.
When the final report comes out, those things that have been argued about most loudly will be completely changed.
If the current report we are looking at has served to do anything, it is to show where people are and what turf people are willing to defend.
I’m going to be gone for a while, so I thought I’d drop this bomb and walk away.
In todays world, with communication, networkings, etc, do we need both State Conventions and Associations?
I don’t claim to be an expert in SBC systems. But can anyone tell me why we need both?
Maybe Dave M can explain this: why is the report so controversial?
I guess I just view most change to be progress and I like it.
I realize that no sane person will ever go for my additions, but the GCR appeared to be rather tame to me.
You already answered your own question – turf. Do we stick with the status quo? Do we make a few minor tweeks? Or do we make major revisions.
The people who have been most upset have been those involved in state conventions – which is why the article you referenced by the NY Exec was so shocking.
The report ends the cooperative agreements between NAMB and the states. However, as I mentioned above, I am told that this section is greatly revised in the upcoming final report.
If I understand things correctly, the changes in the original report have been toned down considerably in the one that is to come.
Dave Miller on #11,
Way to kick the sleeping Rotweiller in the room and then take off! LOL… I think if we are going to be completely honest, then yes, it’s hard to see a successful future that maximizes kingdom impact that includes assocations, state and national convention. i can see the state/association level being eclipsed by affinity groups as technology/ideology makes it easy to work with these groups. So a church might do Willow Creek association (affinity) and then national SBC/IMB stuff. or Founders or some church planting network or perhaps a BI network in the future. And I wonder if that made GCR component #2 THE biggest issue. I don’t think state conventions (who aren’t doing “bad” work) like the idea of that future scenario, and keeping the NAMB agreements is their way to prevent that.
don’t forget that the backlash includes associational leaders as well. They woke up to a world where there roles weren’t even mentioned in the report, and that would be scary for me if I was an associational guy.
Rastis,
An interesting alternative was proposed by Tom Ascol (and I’m not a Founders guy by any means) regarding component #2. He said to drop everything from NAMB except disaster relief.
If that was the case, the states could come up with their own agreements with frontier states (like some may already have) to do church planting, etc. We wouldn’t have the duplication circle of churches-state-NAMB-state either.
I just wonder if something like that is more feasible based on the reaction of state convention leaders to component #2. (although I personally would go for component #2 as is myself.)
I think a lot of people who are resistant to component 2 need to go spend a weekend in Harlem, Miami, Las Vegas, Skid Row (LA), French Quarter (new Orleans), Greenwich Village, Detroit, and Chicago’s south side. If those are the kinds of places we are “releasing” NAMB to plant–unilaterally if necessary–then I think many of the opponents would change their tune after seeing what it looks like, how many people there are, and how much diversity there is. Those kind of efforts would not be in “competition” with many established churches.
It is probably a good thing for states to focus outside of their boundaries. I am just skeptical about that happening in a significant kind of way. In some instances we are simply battling myopia.
My problem with NAMB being a church planting entity is that the history of SBC Church Planting has not been good. We plant five to get 2-3 to stick, and when the emphasis is on “planting” there is zilch emphasis on sustaining, or re-starting.
If NAMB is charged with helping, training, & facilitating the work through long-term mother-church relationships, I’m much more open to the notion.
I can show you hundreds of struggling churches which could be successful if they had the resources currently alloted to new church starts. Every new start needs two staff members in this culture. Yet, hundreds of struggling churches in peopled areas cannot get a foot hold because they’ve been left to fend for themselves, with little or no support.
We work with stateside missions churches regularly, which need help. Making NAMB a church starting entity will completely cut those churches off, in my opinion.
Through the years, I’ve received considerable help by reaching people through “The Bridge.” In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, dozens of groups ministered with us which we contacted through “The Bridge.”
Now, I do understand that ministry could be sustained by others entities.
I ministered as a Language Missionary along the Rio Grande. The HMB sent teams which we exposed to missions by involving them in ministry in Mexico.
I agree that much of what NAMB does could be co-ordinated by Associations, but NAMB facilitates Disaster Relief as well as any institution in the world and does it over the entire North American Continent.
NAMB’s work with deaf ministry is very good. Troy Smith, in Portland, Oregon established an extraordinary inner city ministry there in conjunction with NAMB.
Our Seaman’s ministry is a vitally supported by NAMB. NAMB has some very good language missionaries, and I see no need to double up with the IMB.
David,
I have no problem with the IMB planting churches the same way Paul did, however, Paul left the development of those areas to the local churches. I have no problem with NAMB planting churches the same way Paul did. However, if fear that should the sole priority become new starts, then we’ll return to those days of two starts a week with little or no support.
I know the IMB is our instrument to take the message to the world, and I support that, but I fear a “Super Agency” whose “needs” become the sole focus of the SBC.
When we get past the responsibility of the local church, we’ve arrogantly gone too far I believe. If the institutions we establish are not church centered, and under the authority of the local church, then I believe we are outside the Biblical paradigm.
Ben Cole and Ellen Rosenberg; Rosenberg on the Underbelly of the CR
First Ben Cole has become Roman Catholic. It was news to me or had not registered; pretty interesting.
In a discussion at http://www.baptistlife.com/forums SBC trends I turned up this quote from Letter from Elle Rosenberg. Ellen wrote a great book Mike Rasberry among others most likely never read and probably never will; though he passes for an authority on the CR here on this board.
Maybe Rastis will examine some of this:
Nonetheless Great quote; and I had the honor to be on the receiving end of these thoughts. Please take a look at in context of 1989:
Quoting Ellen; letter of 8-29-89
by Stephen Fox » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:35 am
“…What I think now is this: The SBC is being mobilized to serve as the base for a New Right movement. Falwell’s throw away comment in Salt Lake to look to James Dobson for leadership after the demise of the Moral Majority was a red herring. When the SBC has been disciplined and intimidated and the necessary personnel substitution have been made, they will move All the other stuff is incidental Each successive outrage is outrageous, but not worth getting bothered about (except, of course, for the individuals involved)–it is the pattern that is important. What I see going now is an erosion of board-staff boundaries, this constant interference by trustees in personnel and program responsibilities.”
I’m pretty sure I used this quote by year’s end in a free lance artice that was published in Baps Today.
Quite remarkable statement. You and Dave Roberts should see her essay in Ammerman’s collection Southern Baptists observerved as well.
Sfox
” It is the age of technology, can we do it remotely?”
Absolutely. The ones that can make it happen stand ready to do so.
This the best view of this whole mess I have read.
Combine this with what Terry R. said and you have an chance at arriving at the right destination.
Good Stuff!
Leaving out Associations in the GCR report is nothing new. They were also left out of the original CP Plan in 1925.
In my opinion associations are the most overlooked resource in SBC life. Think of the 1000′s of feet already on the ground on the North American Mission Field in the Associations.
Now if we could just mobilize that vast army!
Yes Jim! The associations make a great platform for local work if they are done well. I have been in several associations which were glorified pastors clubs. The one I serve with now–and our neighboring one–both serve the churches well, and move people out strategically. I still think there has to be some group with a bird’s eye view on the country, but I think we can make it with a national strategy group and local implementation, and just skip the middle man.
Mile said, “My problem with NAMB being a church planting entity is that the history of SBC Church Planting has not been good. We plant five to get 2-3 to stick, and when the emphasis is on ‘planting’ there is zilch emphasis on sustaining, or re-starting.” I am in nearly complete agreement with yopu here. (I didn’t think our church plants did quite as well as three, or even two, out of five suriving.) And I have long advocated that “we” (whether as individual churches, associations, state conventions, NAMB, or whomever) should put more resources into fewer starts with more background work being done on where these starts shhould be placed. Helping a new or newer work church sustain itself should consist of more than a few (and I emphasise “few” here) thousand dollars and the requirement to fill out a short, monthly form. It should take the form of active mentoring and susbtantial financial assistance. Some might say, “Our churches are automonyous, it wouldn’t work because we can’t make them do so-and-so.” OK, fine, we cannot make them; but neither are we obligated to give financial assistance. Make the mentoring and possibly staff part of the deal, and if the church said no to that, they are declining the contingent offer of finances too. That way they remain completely autonomyous.
Are state conventions superfluous? I am not sure; one one had, almost undoubtedly they are, but on the other, I think folks I know personally in Columbia (Maryland) know better what is needed in Maryland than folks who are no more than names in Nashville. That notwithstanding, there will be pressure to maintain them as long as there is friction between the SBC leadership and churches/local leaders. And I will guarantee such friction exists. My proof? The fact that the CR leadership in the SBC regards some state conventions as too liberal, and the fact that some churches and in the states see the CR leadership in the SBC as a threat. As long as those exist in a substantial way, a significant number of churches will see any effort to do away with state conventions as a power play by the SBC. I am probably one of those myself.
John
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t believe the national convention has the power to dissolve state conventions. As far as I know, the only thing they could do would be pass a motion stating their desires. Ending state conventions has to be done at the local level. It is really just wishful thinking on my part to think they will go away. Unfortunately, it will probably take until the money dries up for most people to figure out a better strategy.
As I see it, there is nothing sacred about cooperating with other churches to do Great Commission ministry at either the associational, state convention, national convention, or worldwide level. Nor about doing it at a denominational, or interdenominational, or parachurch level. I do see that the biblical model, if we are looking at it from the perspective of description rather than prescription, is principally cooperation at a city-wide and worldwide interdenominational level. But, I do not see that the Bible rules out, or frowns on, any of these other levels of cooperation.
It is also true that many things that ought to be done, and need to be done, in worldwide Great Commission ministry, cannot be done very effectively by local churches working all by themselves, without cooperating with others.
If we agree on the above, the key is determining what particular combination of all of the above options ends up being the most effective and efficient way of directing the resources God places in our hands toward something that results in the advance of God’s kingdom, and moves us closer to the fulfillment of the Great Commission.
And when it comes to effectiveness and efficiency, it is hard for me to make a judgment without hearing testimonies from all those involved, and seeing some statistical evidence favoring one model of cooperation over against another. Evidently, all this is pretty complex. Also, it seems to me very easy to undervalue what you don’t understand or have any personal experience with.
Because of that, I am still all ears as I listen to the arguments and presentations various ones are giving on this. I haven’t yet made up my mind.
As it relates to state conventions: personally, my views are pragmatic rather than biblical/unbiblical. In other words, I agree that state conventions are neither biblically mandated nor condemned. If we have to trim to reach a goal, the most obvious place of duplication is the state convention. It appears that we have a system which is more patterned after the Federal, state and local governments than it is built on a particular strategy. Perhaps it was strategic 50 years ago. Right now, it just appears to be multiple layers of bureaucracy.
What would it look like if we just started over? Would we set up state conventions? Perhaps we would set up neither state conventions nor a national convention. Perhaps the answer would be to have five regional groupings[east coast, west coast, gulf coast, north border, central]. Rather than one national pastors conference and a bunch of follow state conferences, why not reduce the number to 5, one for each area. The five regional groups could electronically collaborate to keep a national unity and identity.
I don’t know what the ultimate answer is. I just fear for where we will be in 75 to 100 years on the current trajectory.
Here is something I have been wondering about:
Is the only possible justification for an IMBish entity expertise?
Here is what I mean.
Angle #1:
I once heard an elderly SB pastor explain that he heard someone say that the church he/she belonged to was supporting five missionaries to which he responded by saying [maybe just in his head] “well, I support 5,000 missionaries [through the IMB]“.
Now, that is one angle. However, I think there is another.
Angle #2:
We have 40,000 SB churches [something like that]. If only half of those churches supported “1″ missionary, then that’s 20,000 mssionaries on the ground.
20,000 > 5,000.
Now, at this point I could see everyone agreeing with the obvious, but the next statement I anticipate that will be said is something like this:
Yes, that’s true that 20,000 is greater than 5,000, but you have to take into consideration the expertise that the IMB is able to give the missionaries.
So,Is the only possible justification for an IMBish entity expertise?
Benji,
Not every church is financially able to take on the full-time support of even one missionary unit.
Also, there is a certain camaraderie on the mission field, with an organization like IMB, that provides an emotional and spiritual support base that missionaries sent directly from one local church often do not have. Related to this, the IMB is able to provide on-site pastoral care overseas for its missionaries in ways that a single local church, due to logistics, many times, cannot.
And, there is a history of relationships with national believers, other GCCs, local authorities, etc., upon which you can build, instead of having to re-invent the wheel all the time. This can be a positive thing, providing credibility, access to networking opportunities, etc. But, it can also be negative, if the relationships have not been all that good in the past.
Perhaps this is a sub-category of expertise, but I also think there is something to be said for being a team member in an organization with a worldwide Kingdom perspective, rather than a more narrow focus (i.e. avoidance of tunnel-vision).
There are probably other justifications as well. But these are some that come to mind right now.
Rastis,
The Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma funds children’s homes, retirement villages, crisis pregnancy centers, part of Oklahoma Baptist University, camps, funds to retired ministers, disaster relief, and on and on.
Are you aware of such functions at the state level, and do you see any value in them? How do you see them being done better, or should we just give them up, in your view?
David,
Thank you for your response. I think you have given something to chew on.
Karen,
There’s nothing you mentioned which could not be funded by the Associations or even local churches directly. And if the local churches don’t deem it worthy of funding, I wonder if it should be funded.
The problem is that state conventions embark on projects which sometimes don’t need to be continued, but they seem incapable of defunding such. Local churches usually don’t have that problem.
Those projects might all be worthy, or some might need to be re-evaluated. But the purpose of what we do should be to reach the lost, not provide sanctuary from the world. Rather we should be pushing our folks out into the world so that they may be salt and light.
Benji,
Most of those churches which support independent missionaries DO NOT support them completely. The typical monthly contribution to independent missionaries from individual churches is below $200.00 per month. Generally they must have income for several churches. It generally takes between 20 & 30 churches to give support for a family. Now those churches usually support between 5 & 12 missionary families. That means that if one church gave all its missions support to one family, they’d still usually need 4 to 5 churches giving faithfully to keep them on the field.
In the most unchurched state in the United States, Alaska Baptist Convention will receive 1.2 million dollars from NAMB, $38,000 for CP promotion and $60,000 from Lifeway. Yet there is not even a line item for Church Planting in our budget. When I came to plant a church, state executives told me that their hasn’t been a successful church plant in Anchorage (half the population of Alaska lives in ANC) for the past 10 years. We can argue back and forth about the recommendations, but please don’t tell me this doesn’t need to be fixed.
Brent Williams
I think a big reason why there are so many problems with home missions and “turf” is because we stress “autonomy,” that is, independence, to the point of excluding cooperation and unity. We want our churches to be independent of one another. We don’t want to have to support this mission agency or this evangelisitic effort. We want to do it ourselves, our way.
We do need change. We need some restructuring. But none of that will work if we don’t address the underlying heart issue of local-church-o-centrism. We need to be more willing to give up our “rights” for the sake of unity and cooperation, even if that means we don’t hold the reins on every single decision our church is a part of.
Brent,
What was the impetus for your going to Alaska? Were you sponsored by a church, assn, state convention, or NAMB?
Andrew,
I don’t know where you are, but that certainly is not the case in the areas I’ve been. I feel that in most cases the churches are “guided” by either the State Convention, or Association. Certainly there are more churches doing ministry than in years past, but most seem to jump on whatever is proposed by the denominational bishops.
When that happens, we’ll evolve into a clearly more hierarchal organization. If we want an organizational structure like the AOG or Methodists, then we’ll no longer be baptists. Local church autonomy is a key doctrine of Baptist identity.
I don’t believe we accomplish more for the Kingdom by becoming more organized, but rather by becoming holy individually and collectively.
I believe everything SHOULD flow out of the local church, and that the local church is the epicenter of Christ’s work. While not neglecting the uttermost, we must win Jerusalem. I contend that every problem we face is because we are NOT reaching Jerusalem and our base is becoming more and more pagan.
Mike,
What specifically do you take issue with that I wrote?
Andrew,
I simply think we are already less autonomous than we need to be, and I see a danger in becoming less so. I do not want to return to the place where professional denominational leaders make all the decisions for the local church and simply expect them to fall in line.
I sense a danger there.
Just for note,
The entire concept of a “structure” other than local churches, starting other churches, is contrary to the New Testament.
Maybe J.R. Graves was right.
Jeff,
Would you care to give chapter and verse for that one?
Mike,
Then you misunderstand me.
What I’m saying is that we mask our true intentions by proclaiming autonomy when in actuality we are proclaiming independence. The real message we’re not saying out loud is “If this agency/church/program/event doesn’t operate the way I want it to, then I’m not getting involved!”
Within churches you see it when the man is upset that the church approved the construction of a new wing, so he designates his offerings to a non-existant “parking lot fund” that the church has no intention of ever spending money on.
On a larger scale, churches don’t enlist the help of other churches in church-planting because they want the church plant to behave a certain way. “I’m not going to fund NAMB church planting efforts if the new works play contemporary Christian music, preach from the NIV, etc.” “I’m not going to help put on an evangelistic event with the church across town because their pastor is a Calvinist and I don’t want new converts pointed down that road.”
Of course, we don’t say this. We just say that we want to preserve our autonomy. “I don’t want to be dependent on another entity.” “I don’t want to have some mission board tell me how or where to plant churches.” In reality, we’re not arguing for autonomy, but against cooperation.
Mike,
We are supported by churches in the lower 48 – mainly one church in TX that has been coming to work here in Alaska for the past four years.
Brent
What is the one entity in Southern Baptist Life that is indispensable?
The Local Church.
All the others must function to enhance and strengthen the life, work and mission of the local church or they are excess baggage.
The problem is we all disagree on what baggage we absolutely need and what is excess.
This is a debate that will not be solved by a report!
Karen in OK,
Thanks for the comment. When money gets tight, it is always a difficult decision to decide what gets cut and what stays. I agree with Mike that those services can be provided for more locally. The real question SBCers need to be asking is not “how many programs/institutions do we have money for?” but “What are we going to be about in the future.” I completely affirm the legitimacy and necessity of orphanages and elderly homes to an extent. We are commanded to look out for the widows and fatherless. While we are having a hypothetical discussion about going back to the drawing board, let us also question how we have answered that biblical mandate. We have formed institutions [orphanages, etc] supported by institutions [associations, state conventions, NAMB? CP?]. Is this what the scriptures had in mind? I am not saying that there is necessarily anything wrong with institutions, and I do not for briefest second question the sacrifice and service of those serving therein. We set up institutions probably because that is how it has always been. We have inherited a system. Surveys of lost people in our culture indicate an attitude about the church that it only thinks of itself and it is about money. True or not, that is often how we are perceived. Is there a way then, where we retain our commitment to serving the orphans and widows in more visible ways–so as to demonstrate our concern for our fellow man before the world–without institutions? Just take orphanages as an example. Why do we just adopt? We have 16 million SBCers. Assume that they are all couples and then we have half that number. Why can’t our solution be adoption? It takes care of the “problem.” It doesn’t create an institution which needs funding. It demonstrates our commitment to “love our neighbor” to those who think we only want bigger buildings.
I am not advocating that we stop ministering, only that we do so in a way that is more strategically supporting the great commission.
Brent,
My question, is Why did you go to Alaska to plant a church? Was it the collective decision of several entities, or was it a unilateral decision based upon your sense of God’s leadership? Or, were you already living there?
Andrew,
I must disagree with your assessment. I’m not really sure where you acquired that perception, but I don’t think it is accurate. I also think you misunderstand autonomy.
While we can and should work together on those things on which we can in good conscience agree, the local church is ultimately accountable to God for what it participates in and supports. If we learn nothing else from the first three chapters of The Revelation, we can certainly learn that.
The pastor is ultimately accountable for the leadership he gives and must be careful to not do that which by faith He cannot affirm as God’s leadership.
God is not short of funds, and the work of Christ in the world is not dependent upon the flimsy efforts of men or churches. He simply has chosen to allow us to participate in His great work.
The modern missionary movement began before Southern Baptists organized to co-operatively approach the matter. That God led in the establishment of our efforts seems obvious, but that doesn’t mean that He is dependent upon us. But His plan, I believe, has always been through the local church, not through boards, agencies, or conventions. When the local church is sub-ordinated to a “greater” plan, then I believe something is very wrong with the plan.
We all tend to think that our particular ministry is the most important thing, and must above all else receive support. That is a natural feeling and one not unique Christendom.
Jim, I think you are absolutely right. I also think that we often forget that truism in Baptist life.
Jeff, while I agree with Jim that the local church is the foundation of our life as Baptists, to say that any structure beyond the local church is not “New Testament” is an assertion that needs some support. I think that way overstates the issue.
David,
While I can’t give you chapter and verse off the top of my head, I can affirm that everything in the New Testament seems to have flowed out of the church.
Those who were scattered after the stoning of Stephen seemed not to form many churches, but reached people for Christ. I don’t know how many churches did from but we can tell that the church at Antioch had a very close association with the church at Jerusalem, and God seems to have used that church to send out Paul and his company to establish churches in areas where the refugees had begun impacting the local communities. From those churches flowed the other NT churches of that era.
I believe the great commission was given to the body assembled to be communicated to the body not yet gathered. I do not believe it was given individually, and I don’t think that is what the “Priesthood of The Believer” implies.
I also have just a touch of “landmarkism” in me because I still believe that while the Roman Empire and Church were wed in an ungodly union, true believers did meet in assemblies. They were killed as heretics because they opposed the great whore Rome had become. I’m not “landmark” enough to believe that those were uniquely Baptist Assemblies, but that they were usually more baptistic than not in their practice. Therefore, I do believe there has been a consistent witness through the ages given to the church.
Mike,
I do not equate autonomy with independence. If the two have to be synonyms, then my understanding of autonomy does differ from yours.
When I read Paul urging the churches to give to other churches in their time of need, he makes so many pleas to mutual edification and dependence. It’s not as though the church in Corinth will cease to exist if they don’t support the church in Jerusalem, but they have a special relationship. Family.
We as believers in Christ are a church family. And yes, if there are theological and other issues involved, it may be unwise to cooperate with other believers in certain ventures. But the reasons I hear people give for not participating with the greater Body of Christ are often shallow and fake.
Can I support a new church plant if has contemporary music in the service? If someone feels called to reach a people group within my geographical area that my church isn’t trying to reach, does it matter if they are an “outsider” infringing on my turf? It shouldn’t. And if these efforts are seeking to enlist my support, ought I deny them because of my music preferences or my arrogant assertion of turf boundaries? No. Because we’re a family. We’re going to have some minor disagreements. That’s what I’m about with this.
Ignore the GCR. If my church sends ambassadors to the annual convention every year and we are not engaged in anything else, that isn’t cooperation. If my church gives thousands to the CP, LMCO, AAEO, etc, but doesn’t fellowship with believers from other churches, that isn’t cooperation. I’m not against autonomy, so long as autonomy doesn’t equal isolation. Do you see my heart in this?
Jimmy Jackson of will nominated for SBC Prez and Morris Chapman in interviewed by Bob Terry in April 22 Alabama Baptist.
Jackson story is online, and I imagine the Chapman interview will be soon.
Jackson allegedly wanted to dismiss FBC Huntsville, his sister church across town for their support of women’s ordination, but it did not hit the floor of the Bama SBC last fall.
Terry is most likely in favor of women’s ordination; for sure he is strong on the Baptist World Alliance, so his apparent support of Chapman and the SBC ExCom I imagine will be suspect in the most orthodox corners of SBC life currently, if Ronnie Floyd is now the definition of orthodox.
Most of you will want to be checking to see his interview online soon as it goes up.
Terry supports far as I can tell the work of Martin Accad, a key figure in Robert Parham’s recent Common Word documentary.
Till the Chapman interview goes up here is something you will want to explore, in re the Current state of the SBC and the GCR:
http://www.thealabamabaptist.org/print-edition-article-detail.php?id_art=15537&pricat_art=10
Mike,
It was first a clear passion to invest my life in an area that was in great need of a gospel community. As I was working through where that would be, God was at work in another Pastors heart to do the same thing. They begin to put back funds for church planting waiting on God to show them where the resources should go. God brought us together to plant a church in Anchorage, Alaska. It was churches planting churches. We visited Alaska twice on mission trips and the church funding us had been coming to Alaska for four years on mission trips. Our family sold everything in a garage sale and drove 4000 miles to Anchorage, Alaska. We are parachute planters. The church attempted to work through the Alaska Baptist Convention, but it just didn’t work out. I have a good relationship with them and they are supportive of our new church.
Unfortunately, the priority of the Alaska Baptist Convention is not to partner with other churches to plant new churches or even plant churches on their own. My city needs church planters. Our local association and our state convention needs to be a catalyst for church planting. It needs to be a burning passion within them to see healthy churches reproduce and begin new churches. Obviously, the churches in Anchorage do not believe they are healthy enough to plant churches. Therefore the convention and local association needs to be doing two things. Invest in the local church to see the need and equipping them or walk alongside to help them plant churches. That is not being done in my city.
There are over 300,000 people in Anchorage Alaska. Less than 1500 worship in a SBC church. We only baptized 300 people last year. Yet we spent $45,000 on travel and $12,000 on pastor/staff retreats. Yes, we can nitpick line items in budget all day long, but when you take a birds eye view of the priorities of our state convention, church planting is not its priority nor is seeing local churches reproduce.
I know I gave you a little more than you asked for. What was your reason for asking?
Brent Williams
http://www.truenorthanchorage.com
David,
Hermeneutically, I agree with your interpretation and wish to revise my earlier statement by inserting the parenthesis: “I love the Great Commission too much to stop teaching (individuals in our) society to observe all the things that Jesus commanded, and the ERLC is a great resource for doing exactly that.”
You raise an interesting question regarding discipleship that has never really crossed my mind: “Does all Great Commission teaching and discipleship take place within the structure of personal, individual relationships fostered through the local church, or can other cooperative structures composed of Christians from various like-minded churches engage in discipleship ministries together?”
I believe our seminaries would be an example of the latter. Do they not “teach” brothers and sisters “to observe all things whatsoever that Jesus commanded?” If so, my definition of Great Commission work is at least broad enough to include the seminaries. For that matter, I believe the printed resources at Lifeway are Great Commission endeavors as well. Taking this a step further, when Dr. Land teaches about the Sanctity of Human Life in one of his Christian Ethics courses, I believe he is fulfilling the Great Commission. He is teaching faithful men who will teach other faithful men the truths of our faith and how they apply to our world.
This is where it gets interesting. Now suppose Dr. Land delivers the very same lecture at a government forum or in response to the questions on Larry King Live. Is there any reason not to view the ERLC as an educational ministry among cooperating churches seeking to fulfill a Great Commission purpose?
As we think about a Great Commission Resurgence, perhaps we need to consider that one person’s “bloated bureaucracy” is another’s legitimate “Great Commission ministry.”
Rastis,
Thank you for your boldness in proposing new ways of doing things. However, I have a hard time characterizing the work of the ERLC as mere “political advocacy.” As they promote the biblical worldview among individuals in our society, their work necessarily overlaps with the political system. Still, they are ultimately talking about what is right and wrong as revealed in the Word of God.
Pastors who are busy with funerals, weddings, counseling, hospital visits, committee meetings and sermon prep cannot devote the kind of focus necessary to give voice to our concerns in the public square. With the ERLC specializing in this work, Southern Baptists are actually able to be salt and light more effectively.
As to the stewardship issue, as I understand the proposal, the move from 50% to 51% would essentially wipe out a third of the Executive Committee’s budget, which is separate from the ERLC entirely. While I’m sure this statement is not going to butter your bread, I even believe that the Executive Committee, as they exercise the spiritual gift of administration, is helping Southern Baptists to fulfill the Great Commission.
Finally, you asked an excellent question: “Would you rather send more people to the darkest places on earth to spread the gospel or have the ERLC?” My response is simply that this is a false dichotomy setting the “make disciples” portion of the Great Commission against the “teaching to obey” portion of the Great Commission. Although your question did not offer my preferred answer as an alternative, I do not see this as an “either/or” but as a “both/and.”
You may ask: “Wherever will we get the money to do both?” My answer: “A Cooperative Program Resurgence that lifts our currently weak 6.6% church average to the 10.2% church average we enjoyed twenty years ago would pay for everything, including the sending of those missionaries who are now grounded in Richmond!” A CPR is needed to finance a GCR.
Rick,
Interesting thoughts. We could go a number of directions with this.
I’m not sure if you are a long-time reader of SBC Impact. I have written several posts related to the basic issues at stake here. Not sure if you’ve seen them or not. Here are a few links. If you’d like to continue this dialogue, perhaps these would be some good jumping off points. I, for one, would be open to considering these issues from another perspective.
http://www.sbcimpact.net/2009/09/14/praying-for-americans/
http://www.sbcimpact.net/2010/02/24/the-seduction-of-political-idolatry/
http://www.sbcimpact.net/2010/03/15/christ-the-faithful-suffering-servant-in-the-midst-of-culture/
http://www.sbcimpact.net/2009/08/19/sarah-palin-the-new-apostolic-reformation-and-the-seven-mountains/
Brent,
I have several reasons for asking: (1)Foremost is that an out of state church sponsored us once, and we had HMB matching support. When that church encountered financial difficulties, the HMB could not continue their support unless we could come up with the matching funds and sponsorship. So, my first reason for asking was to ascertain if such is still occurring.
2. I was curious about whether or not local churches were involved. You indicated that the Assoc and State Conv are not that involved in the process.
3. I was interested in who you look to for authoritative counsel. If this was just a decision on your part to begin such a work outside the authority of a church, I would have little sympathy for you.
4. I’m interested in how you receive funds and account for those funds. Does funding come directly to you, to the church/mission, to a mother church, or what? With whom would one speak if he were interested in helping support the work there, or finding out more about it?
5. Do you have a support group which in intimately involved with you and your work?
Andrew,
I think you sell people short. I can be a co-operating Southern Baptists and not feel led to support your particular ministry. There is a vast difference between independence and autonomy. What I spoke of is far from independence. I am Southern Baptist because of a doctrinal position which connects me to untold numbers of missionaries who are interdependent. I need them, they need me. We are a part of each other.
Our church gives nearly 40% to missions and outreach. Some of that missions is the three classes we teach each week in the Regional Prison near us. Some of missions is the personal participation in medical and evangelistic missions overseas. Some of the missions is participating in disaster relief around the globe. Some of the missions is helping severely underfunded home missionaries. Some of the missions is putting a transmission in the vehicle of a lady who lives on an extremely low fixed income. I could go on… and on… and on… But I won’t.
Yes we give extensively to co-operative program efforts through a monthly regular gift and special offerings. However, there are some things, I just don’t think we should be a part of.
That, my brother, is autonomy.
I also think you trivialize the convictions of many with your seemingly flippant reasons for not supporting ministries. In my forty plus years of ministry I’ve met very few who allowed small issues with which they disagreed to prevent them from participating. Usually the reason people don’t participate is a lack of confidence in the ministry, a lack of confidence in the minister, and/or a lack of a sense of guidance at that time.
Now, I’m not saying there are none who act in the way you describe, however, I believe it to be an extremely small number.
Thanks for your response, Rastis.
Theoretically, it is a good thing to rethink what we need to be about.
However, details are very important.
For example, your idea that “orphanages” are not needed if Southern Baptists just get proactive and adopt.
See http://www.obhc.org. The homes in Oklahoma are not orphanages. By and large, they are for kids who have various situations in their biological homes. Take a look at the website.
People that want to protect specific projects and institutions find it difficult to progress to meaningful consensus if they get the idea that the general solutions being suggested have no basis in common with the actual situation. Their defense of the current institution is too often seen as only protecting individual turf.
Mike,
I think you sell people short.
I’m not trying to label anyone or to say that Southern Baptists as a whole are uncooperative. I’ve just seen lately in the blogworld and in the real world people who’ve been very isolationist in speech (blog) and action (real world). I’ve also seen others come out and encourage mutual edification and interdependence. I’ve been speaking generically and haven’t identified any specific individuals or groups. Who, specifically, am I selling short?
I can be a co-operating Southern Baptists and not feel led to support your particular ministry. There is a vast difference between independence and autonomy.
Assuming this is a generic “your,” I totally agree and said as much in my last comment. If you’re engaging me in this comment stream because you think I’m trying to chastise people for not giving money to the NAMB, IMB, etc., then my whole point has been lost.
What I spoke of is far from independence. I am Southern Baptist because of a doctrinal position which connects me to untold numbers of missionaries who are interdependent. I need them, they need me. We are a part of each other.
Our church gives nearly 40% to missions and outreach. Some of that missions is the three classes we teach each week in the Regional Prison near us. Some of missions is the personal participation in medical and evangelistic missions overseas. Some of the missions is participating in disaster relief around the globe. Some of the missions is helping severely underfunded home missionaries. Some of the missions is putting a transmission in the vehicle of a lady who lives on an extremely low fixed income. I could go on… and on… and on… But I won’t.
Yes we give extensively to co-operative program efforts through a monthly regular gift and special offerings. However, there are some things, I just don’t think we should be a part of.
That, my brother, is autonomy.
I haven’t accused you of being isolationist or uncooperative, so I’m not sure why you’re telling me this about your church. Also, it appears that you and I have a common definition of “autonomy.”
I also think you trivialize the convictions of many with your seemingly flippant reasons for not supporting ministries. In my forty plus years of ministry I’ve met very few who allowed small issues with which they disagreed to prevent them from participating. Usually the reason people don’t participate is a lack of confidence in the ministry, a lack of confidence in the minister, and/or a lack of a sense of guidance at that time.
I’m not trying to trivialize anyone’s convictions. I’m glad you’ve met few people who’ve let these issues prevent them from participating. But in my experience the lack of confidence sometimes comes from other than biblical reasons.
Now, I’m not saying there are none who act in the way you describe, however, I believe it to be an extremely small number.
We supposedly have over 40,000 churches in the SBC. If only an extremely small number are isolationist or turf-conscious, it is still a large number.
Again, I’m not trying to caricature anyone. There is no need to defend your ministry or cooperation to me. But I’m only complaining about an attitude I’ve seen popping up on blogs and in churches that promotes a spirit of isolation over community and cooperation.
Mike,
Thank you for the information.
Future of the SBC?
1. The younger generation will break away.
2. GCR will mean little in 10 yrs since it is now watered down.
3. When the main CR laborers all hit retirement, the CP will become a lot like our Social Security Program–underfunded and failing.
4. The Lord’s work will pass to other hands.
Bottom line: You can’t change money problems when everybody likes their job. Also, upper management is always the last place reform takes place.
Other stuff:
Associations are the best place for churches to pool their resources for missions. If all the churches are likeminded, much can be accomplished. Problem is that our associations today are based on regions that consist of opposing theologies in member churches.
Original purpose of Baptist Assns in 18th and 19th century: Doctrine, Fellowship, and Spreading the Gospel.
You guys have great ideas. Keep up the good blogging.
gabaptist
Dave M and Dave R
I fully recognize that there is to be a cooperation between and among N.T. churches much like an association. However with great respect for your both, I would say that an “organized structure” above and beyond the N.T. Church would need some Biblical explaining. I am saying that it’s not there, you guys are saying that it is. Where?
I realize that churches cooperating with each other is clearly seen. However what’s shown doesn’t rise past the level of associating with each other to help each other accomplish the carrying out of the great commission.
I’m not anti-cooperation at all. My assertion is merely that the local church is the highest and only N.T. organized structure.
Thanks for letting me in the conversation.
Jeff,
http://www.sbcimpact.net/2008/05/07/the-one-true-church/