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Assorted Thoughts on Missions, Unity, Blogging, and Vitriol
Posted by David Rogers in Church & Missions
On various occasions, I have had the opportunity of hearing missiologist and house church guru Wolfgang Simson in person and on tape, and have also read several of his writings. He has some very interesting things to say that have spurred my imagination and helped me to think more deeply on a variety of subjects. However, I do not subscribe completely to everything he teaches. Frankly, there are a few things he says which strike me as rather extreme. However, there is one thing he said once, in a seminar on church planting, that really rang true for me, and which I believe is a key concept all those interested in cross-cultural missions would do well to heed. Upon being asked by a North American missionary, “What is the most strategic thing we, as North Americans, can do to facilitate a church planting movement in a cross-cultural context?” he replied, “Find a local believer who is on fire for God, and pour gasoline on their fire.”
Over the last two weekends, in the countries of Nicaragua and Ecuador, I have had the privilege of spending some quality time with some choice servants of God, presenting the Adrian Rogers Pastor Training Institute “What Every Pastor Ought to Know” materials on DVD, and attempting to pour a bit of gasoline on their fire. It is encouraging to see those God is raising up in many places of the world, and the vision they have for the advance of God’s kingdom, both in their home countries and around the world.
Several of the men with whom I have been able to spend time are key leaders in their respective countries. I am constantly impressed by the spiritual maturity and unusual insight manifested by the ideas many of these men share in our times together. For example, as we were talking over the difference between viewing pastoral ministry as a calling and viewing it as a profession, during an open discussion time with the group of 37 pastors who went through the training in Ecuador, one pastor made a very insightful observation. He said that one aspect of the call to pastoral ministry that is often forgotten and neglected is the corporate aspect. That is, that, in addition to being called as individuals to provide leadership to individual local congregations, all the various elders/pastors/overseers in a particular city or locality are also called jointly to exercise pastoral leadership among the entire population of that particular city or locality. They are all pastors together over the city in which they serve.
Though we could potentially dedicate pages and pages to discussing the nuts and bolts of how to put this idea into practice in terms of our everyday ecclesiology, I think one of the most important things is the basic attitude reflected in our general approach to ministry. Do we view the task we are called to do in terms of our personal contribution toward the meeting of needs and the resolution of problems within our own congregation, or do we see that we are “in this thing together,” sharing the burden of caring for the flock among us with those of our fellow servants whom God has also called to the same task in the same place?
One of our big goals, as we go over the pastor training materials together, is, at some time in the process, to break into small groups, sharing thoughts, concerns, and burdens one with another, encouraging each other, praying together, and holding each other accountable in the carrying out of our joint ministry. It is my hope that many will follow through with my recommendation to continue to meet with a group of their fellow ministers in their own locality, on a regular basis, seeking to carry out the same objectives.
Since, in most of my years of ministry, I have served in contexts outside of the United States, I am not totally up to date on the extent to which this type of thing goes on in Southern Baptist life in the States. I know that some Baptist associations facilitate regular pastors meetings. But, I am curious to hear from some of you who are elders/pastors/overseers if you have a group of men with whom you share openly and who are able to provide some accountability and support in the joint task of pastoring the city or locality in which you each minister. How do you think viewing the call to ministry from a corporate perspective, as pointed out by this brother from Ecuador, might change, in some practical ways, your approach to ministry?
In my travels and conversations with Christian leaders in other places, I am also impressed in more of a negative way by the ubiquitous temptation to division, and the way the devil uses some of the same tired old issues we deal with here in the States to weaken the Body of Christ and to hold back the advance of the kingdom of God.
The following illustration first came to mind years ago as my wife and I were visiting a young adult Sunday School class in a well-established Baptist church in Spain. On our first visit to this particular congregation, after getting lost on the way, we arrived about 30 minutes late, and, upon entering the class, discovered they were right in the middle of a full-blown heated discussion over whether or not it is possible to lose your salvation. Voices were raised, menacing gestures made, and insults hurled, as each side passionately argued their case. Once the class was over, though, it was as if nothing had even happened. All of the sudden, those who, just five minutes earlier, were practically grabbing each other by the throat, were shaking hands, patting each other on the back, and saying, “See you next week, brother.” That was an interesting lesson in Spanish culture, and the love of the Spanish people for a good fight, just for the sake of fighting. It brought to mind the following cartoon vignette, which I imagine many of you remember from your childhood, just like me.
Lately, as I have been thinking over blogging and vitriol, I’ve been thinking there may be some interesting parallels here for us as bloggers as well.
Go ahead. Spend the 6 minutes and 16 seconds it takes to watch the video, paying special attention to the last minute or so. What insights do you see for us, as we “blog it out,” here, there, and everywhere, in this wild, wacky, and wonderful place we call Baptist blogtown?
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I have always loved those cartoons.
I was a part of a City-Church in Cedar Rapids. You said, “They are all pastors together over the city in which they serve.” I experienced that. With all our differences we met together – Baptists, Assembly, Foursquare, Bible church, even a Methodist or two – and prayed for our city. We saw ourselves as individual representations of “the church in Cedar Rapids.” We were part of something bigger than ourselves.
I miss that. I think that is one of the downsides of sectarianism. We miss out of the concept that we are laboring together for One Lord.
January last year I fellowshipped in a Sunday Evening service in a church whose pastor is one of the leading fundamentalists in Alabama. He is also my friend.
At same time, though the subject hasn’t come up, I don’t think he would lead his congregation away from some sort of ecumenical work like Habitat for Humanity.
The Larry Nelson Singers from Arkansas were the visitting group. Great service; I was moved.
Here is a similar unvarnished testimony. I may come back to all this later.
http://forums.baptistlife.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8217#p110133
David Rogers,
I think we can fight and still get along. Take you and I for instance. I love to fight with you because you are street wise and can handle yourself and I don’t feel like I am picking on a child when I grind you into the sand and beat you like a yard dog.
But I still respect you . And if you were stranded in the desert and I came by in a convoy; I promise you I would give your a quarter so you could call home and let your folks know where to pick you up before I left you.
CB,
I was kind of hoping we might just walk off into the sunset with our arms around each other, just like Sam Sheepdog and Ralph Wolf, after a good day’s worth of unloading our best arsenal upon each other. Now, I will leave it to others to decide just who is the sheepdog, trying to protect the innocent sheep, and who is the wolf, trying to devour them.
Kumbaya, my Lord, Kumbaya.
Something that I experience in nearly every town that I’ve lived in, is that the Pastors of other denominations get mad and upset with me for not being willing to do things that I dont feel comfortable doing. I mean, I try to be friendly with them. I try to participate in all that I think I can. And then, when I dont do one thing that they want me to do with them, then they get upset.
So, I just keep loving them, and I keep being friendly to them. And, they eventually get over it. But, they are the one’s, who seem to get very upset and angry when I tell them that I just dont feel comfortable joining with another Church to do (you fill in the blank).
So, why dont they respect my convictions? Why do they get upset, and even mad at me, for not joining with them to do….whatever it is at that moment that they want to do? As if I should drop everything that’s on my plate, in order to join with them?
David
David,
Some days you eat the wolf and some days the wolf eats you. And some days you get to be the wolf.
But David if you want to walk away arm-in-arm lets not be a wolf and a dog. That has no class at all.
Let’s be Humphrey Bogart and Claude Rains in the very last line of Casablanca, just after they capped the Nazi:
“Louis, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.”
David W.,
Just curious. What are some of the things these pastors keep trying to get you to do that you don’t want to do, or that would make you go against your convictions?
David R.,
What does that really matter? If I have convictions about not joining those OTHER churches in some matter, why should they get all mad about it? It makes me not want to be around them. I mean, if they’re constantly asking you to do things, that you’d rather not do; and they get upset with you and mad at you for not agreeing to do them; it kind of makes you not want to be around them.
I’m not asking them to do things that they’d feel uncomfortable with. And, if they told me that they just couldnt join with us on this, or that; then, I’d be fine with it. I’d say, “I understand, Brother. It’s ok.” But, from THEM, a lot of the times, I get grief.
Well, examples….let me see if I can remember all of them…well, there was the time that the Arminian,charismatic, independent church wanted me and my church to have a joint revival meeting. Of course, they would have their counselors down front to counsel with people. And, of course, they were gonna have their music guy lead the worship…to get their style in the services. Well, I told them that we werent gonna be able to do that. They got mad. They not only got mad, but they also stirred up some family members that were members of my church. I had them to deal with for a while…they were upset and mad at me. That was not a fun time….all due to the Arminian, charismatic, independent church wanting us to all “join together” and have harmony! Ha! Yea right, as long as I did what they wanted to do.
Let’s see, I had a Methodist church that wanted to have a lunch type meeting. We’d take turns preaching…I believe he said. Their church wasnt doing much, so he had all the time in the world. I was extremely busy with all that was going on with my church. So, I not only felt uncomfortable with this arrangement, but we had all we could handle, and I had all that I could handle, going on at that time. Well, the preacher got mad at me. He treated me bad for about 3 months. I kept being nice and friendly towards him….trying to show the love of Jesus…you know, David….real harmony and unity between Christians, who dont agree on doctrine. And, he finally got over it.
Well, there’s a couple of them….but I have more.
David
David, good post. I wonder if you would compare Simpson’s suggestion to finding a local believer and pouring fire on him to our idea of finding a man of peace. Regardless, I agree with Simpson. If possible it is always advisable to have a national to work with or train and encourage him to take the lead as soon as possible. That is what I was taught by my missionary mentors at the IMB.
In our country, our missionaries and national Baptist pastors met in each city where I lived either once a week or once a month. We also had good fellowship with other denominations. Don’t worry we did not compromise our theological beliefs but we did pray for each other and often cooperate on projects. For example the entire evangelical community supported Billy Graham and Franklin Graham Crusades. Of course we are an open country without the security concerns some have. I have also found that when you are in a country where the Christians are a small minority you have much more need for fellowship and encouragement with other believers.
I am also not experienced in church planting in the US. At the IMB we are encouraged to not buy property or build buildings, to use lay pastors and to be open to churches starting other churches instead of trying to grow as large as possible. I am not sure how that works here. I have friends in the CPM movement in the US but I have not had a chance to observe first hand their success. I think church planting may also be different in countries where Christians are looked down on as not part of the national culture than in the US where we are more accepted.
David W.,
I agree there is no excuse for getting angry with fellow pastors for not wanting to participate in certain joint activities. Nor for “stirring up” members of other congregations. I am glad you were able to continue to be nice and friendly, and show the love of Jesus to those who have not been so nice to you.
I also agree there may well be joint activities in which others try to impose their own preferences in ministry style and methodology. In such cases, I would recommend attempting to patiently negotiate a win-win solution.
It is interesting to me that other churches and pastors have come to you on so many different occasions seeking to do joint activities. What do you think their main motivation has been in this?
Personally, I would be thrilled that others were seeking to do things together. I place a high value on cooperation with other Christians in the community. I believe this is biblical and Christ-honoring. That doesn’t mean I would agree to compromise on key convictions, though, in order to do it. It does mean I would work hard to try to come to an acceptable agreement, in which the convictions of all parties involved would be respected, and the unity of the Body of Christ honored, all at the same time.
Ron,
As I understand it, the “man of peace” strategy involves going in to a totally unevangelized community, and seeking to share Christ with a particular individual and/or family who shows themselves to be receptive, and then, building the subsequent church planting strategy to a large degree on discipleship efforts concentrated on that same individual and/or family. In totally unreached communities, I think this is a great strategy.
However, it concerns me that, in places where there is already an established evangelical community we, as IMB workers, have sometimes advocated working with our backs toward our fellow believers, as it were, using the rationale that new believers may be “contaminated” by the “traditional DNA” of the existing churches. I recognize there are sometimes national churches, believers, and pastors who do not have a vision for evangelism and church planting, and it is sometimes a waste of time to try to get them to come on board. But, I also think that, in places where there are already churches, God usually has His choice men and women who are already “on fire for Him,” and we would do well to do our best to seek them out, try to work with them, serve them, and even submit to their leadership, rather than do our own thing just because they may not follow CPM principles exactly “according to the textbook.”
It also concerns me that, in many places around the world, since the implementation of New Directions, IMB missionaries have been encouraged to back off of long-standing relationships of cooperation with national Baptist unions. I am hopeful that, in many cases, the pendulum has begun to swing back towards the middle, as far as this is concerned, though. At the same time, I am happy with the New Directions emphasis on cooperating more broadly with the entire Body of Christ in a given community, and not just our traditional Baptist partners of the past, especially when these are really and truly Great Commission Christians with solid biblical and evangelical convictions.
In places where God is laying a burden for the unity of the Body of Christ on the hearts of believers and churches of various denominations and backgrounds, I believe it is shameful that we as Baptists might choose to remain aloof, disinterested, and even antagonistic toward such a move of the Holy Spirit, just because we are more concerned with promoting our denominational distinctives, or simply more interested in doing our own thing.
You are right David. I witnessed it in our part of the world. Part of my responsibility was to liaison with the national church. I had to work hard to maintain relationships in the face of what was happening. Thankfully our leaderhship is trying to correct those mistakes. It will take time for trust to be restored however.
David R.,
The ecumenical, break down denominational walls thing has been going on for many years now. It’s the “new thing” going in Christendom. It all started with the liberal crowd, and the big ecumenical movement of the 70′s where many of the liberal Churches just kind of joined together, and meshed and melted into the same thing, just with different labels and slightly different church govt. You know, the whole World Council of Churches thing.
I have had many of these Pastors from OTHER churches approach me about joint things. Most of them are in smaller churches that dont have the finances nor the manpower to do some of the things they are wanting to do. Thus, they want the Baptist Church…the bigger church usually….to pitch in and help them out…to do the things that they’re wanting to do.
I’m just not very interested in that kind of stuff. Besides, as I said, my plate is full enough with my own church…without adding to it with someone elses projects.
David
David W.,
You said: “The ecumenical, break down denominational walls thing has been going on for many years now.”
I think it has been going on ever since Jesus prayed that His disciples may be one, way back in John 17.
I also think it is important to clearly distinguish between true and false believers, and true and false churches. A big part of the problem with the WCC is they don’t really do that.
However, once we have the really and truly false churches out of the picture, I don’t think the Bible leaves room for thinking of our relationships with other churches, pastors, and believers, in terms of “us” and “them.” We are all in this together. When one part of the body hurts, the rest hurts with it. When one part rejoices, the rest rejoices with it. I seem to remember someone named Paul saying something like that somewhere around 1 Cor. 12:25-26.
I do care about Christians from OTHER churches. I try to love them and be nice to them, in spite of our doctrinal differences. I’m not willing to compromise clear teaching of Scripture, so that all the Churches can join together into one Church in the town. That sounds nice. I wish it would happen. But, in the real world, it aint happening, and it aint gonna happen, unless the Lord really does an unusual work in THOSE churches about their errors in doctrine.
Real unity and harmony between Christians can be seen in how we treat each other around town, and in how we get along, in spite of our differences. I’ve found that many of the “let’s all get together” crowd want Churches to all join together, if you’ll become like them. lol.
David
Wade Burleson and DAvid Rogers both signed the Memphis Declaration. Today Wade is blogging on Matthew 23 in re current SBC leadership.
Would be interesting if the two above signers of the MemDec would dialogue here at SBCImpact in re Burleson’s thoughts on Matthew 23 and Rogers call for Straightforward and civil dialogue in this current discussion.
David W.,
When I talk and write about the City Church, I am not so much talking about an actual structure where all of the members would vote on church discipline, for instance, or where members of one congregation would have a say-so regarding the building plans of another congregation, for instance. I am talking more about a general attitude, a general recognition, that, at the core, we are all part of the same Body of Christ. I am talking about really trying to get to know each other, spending quality time in fellowship one with another, especially among the different pastors. I am talking about praying together. I am talking about feeling free to share our burdens one with another, and having the sensation that our fellow pastor, though he may be in another congregation, or even another denomination, has “got our back,” so to speak. And, I am talking about, from time to time, as it makes sense, doing some joint activities, such as evangelistic campaigns, or maybe a March for Jesus, or something like that. I am talking about, when someone from another congregation visits ours, or comes for transfer of membership, being open with the pastor of the church they are coming from, and not viewing them in a competitive fashion. I am talking about, whenever we hear gossip or slander in relation to another church or pastor, refusing to be part and parcel to it, and having a general commitment to defending the honor of our fellow brothers and sisters, even though we may not dot every “i” and cross every “t” the same. I am talking about, whenever there is a special need, or burden, or problem in another congregation, being there to lend a helping hand, or be a shoulder to cry on, etc., etc. That is the type of thing I am talking about.
Stephen,
I just went back and read over the Memphis Declaration again. It had been awhile. I still agree with what it says, and would not refrain from signing it again. That does not mean I necessarily agree with everything everyone else who signed it thinks or says, though. Just ask C. B. Scott, for example. I also went and read Wade’s post on Matthew 23. I suppose he is pointing out some legitimate issues and dangers. I think we must be careful to not broad-brush everyone, though. Not saying he is necessarily doing that. Just a thought that came to mind, as I read it. It was also interesting to see that Wade has disabled comments. It had been several weeks since I had read anything over there.
David,
Are you up for the Bogart- Rains thing or not?
CB,
Here’s a little tribute:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-QdrUHJbo4&feature=related
Do you think we should let Villa Rica in on the secret?
Who knows? I may even make it to Orlando.
David,
If you make it to Orlando, we’ll eat at Rick’s Place. I here the piano man there is great.
And time goes by…