They Will Know You Are My Disciples by Your Vitriol?
Posted by Dave Miller in Baptist Life
In recent weeks, we have seen some wild things happen in blogs.
1) Dr. Jerry Rankin wrote a blog he called “Convoluted Priorities.” In it, he delivered a rather scathing review of a speech given by Dr. Morris Chapman to state executive directors. He called his dealings with the Executive Committee “It is just a meaningless exercise of denominational bureaucracy.” He also made this statement about the resistance to change in the SBC. “It is better to let the lost multitudes never hear the gospel and go to hell, than change the way our denomination functions.”
I need to reveal my bias here. I am a huge fan of Dr. Rankin. I got into blogging because I felt that those IMB policies that stirred things up a few years ago were part of a movement to try to push him out. I love his passion for missions and his willingness to work beyond the narrow borders of the Baptist world. I am also a big fan of Dr. Chapman, though I wondered at the wisdom of his comments at the last SBC. I find Dr. Rankin’s perspective intriguing, even though some of his rhetoric might have been inflated.
I cannot remember, in my decades of SBC involvement, hearing two agency heads engage in an exchange such as this. Dr. Rankin clarified his comments later and apologized for the perceptions he created. But it was a unique moment.
2) The exchanges between supporters of Dr. James White and Dr. Ergun Caner have been particularly harsh – on both sides. Hard to pick a winner in this sad (and remarkably petty, even shameful) exchange. Equally hard to calculate the damage to the cause of Christ done by this brouhaha.
3) Perhaps the nadir was reached in an article on March 20 by Peter Lumpkins at SBC Tomorrow bemoaning the response of current leaders to the nomination to the nomination of Troy Gramling to be SBC Pastor’s Conference president. In the article, Lumpkins called out by name the current crop of leaders in the SBC conservative movement. He names “Al Mohler, Danny Akin, Ed Stetzer, Ronnie Floyd, J. D. Greear, Ted Traylor, Johnny Hunt, Jerry Rankin, and others who are the public persona of Southern Baptists.” Here are some of the things he said about them:
“(N)o courage. None. Courage is out to lunch.”
“Here’s what I think. Girly men. Yes, Girly men.”
He said that these “wannabe warriors are gutless.”
I plan to be at the Pastor’s conference and I will not be voting for Troy Gramling. I don’t know what the minimum is, but if someone leads a church that gives 0.18% to the CP, he does not get my vote for any SBC office.
But here’s my question. When did this kind of vitriol and name-calling become styled as a virtue in SBC debate? Peter claims to be upholding truth in his article, willing to say what needs to be said when others are behaving like cowards and “girly men”. I think Peter had a point about the nomination. But why did he have to call denominational leaders names to make his point? Why could he not state his case plainly, clearly and cordially?
My Thesis
Folks, we are only getting started. Orlando will be a decisive moment in SBC history. And it seems that the months leading up to in will be anything but boring for those of us who care about the future of the SBC. But is there no way we can discuss the issues without the vitriol? Can we not maintain civility while we disagree?
Let me make an admission here. I am going to advocate a position today that I have often failed to uphold myself. I am going to say that our debate needs to be “seasoned with grace” and I have often failed to do so. I am going to advocate for civility and kindness. It won’t take too much searching to find places where I have been uncivil and unkind. But the fact that we fail does not abrogate our responsibility to aspire to godly rhetoric.
In John 13:34-35, Jesus said, “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
It would be good for us to remember that this is a command of Christ. Not a suggestion or request. It is a command of our Savior. We are to love one another. And it is through the love we display to one another that the world will see that we are disciples of Jesus. Love is to be the primary marker of Christians.
At the risk of offering simplistic answers, could it be that one of the reasons that our evangelism statistics have flattened out is because we are so quick to disobey the command of Jesus and treat one another with disdain instead of love. The world does not see genuine love and is therefore unimpressed with our message.
Paul also issued a command in Colossians 4:6. “Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.” Our speech is to always be gracious, “seasoned with salt.” Salt stops the spread of decay. Our mouths are supposed to spread grace and hinder death and decay.
Peter talked about defending the faith in 1 Peter 3:15-16. “Always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect.” When you defend the truth, do it with “gentleness and respect.”
I would make the following points for your consideration.
1) Please don’t try to tell me your harsh, demeaning words are really an expression of love!
I have an IQ well over 80. I can tell the difference between vitriol and love. But I am amazed at the creativity exercised by those who define their harsh words as an expression of the love of God.
Yes, I understand that sin destroys and that it is an act of love to face down sin and its effects. But Paul told us, in Galatians 6:1, to confront sin with a “spirit of gentleness.” Love seeks the good of the other person, it acts in the other’s interest, not one’s own. It is not real love for me to excuse a homosexual’s sin – allowing him to continue in the lifestyle that will eventually destroy him. But while I confront his sin I can treat him with respect, as one for whom Christ shed his blood.
Please don’t tell me that name-calling and harsh, unkind words; that vitriol is actually love.
2) There is a difference between belligerence and conviction.
Frankly, there is a tendency among some bloggers to equate civility with liberalism, with a lack of conviction about truth. That is not the case.
Again, I would say two things. First, I try to do what I am advocating here. Second, I fail miserably and often.
I try to engage those who disagree with me in discussion and talk about our differences. I have been chided for lacking conviction. I think I am a man of strong conviction. I believe the Bible is the perfect Word of God. I refuse to compromise on the fundamentals of the faith. I have engaged in television debates with a rabbi, an imam, an adoptive lesbian mother and a member of the Jesus Seminar. All of these debates were civil, but I do not think that if you watched them (I’ve got the video if you want to challenge me) you would accuse me of compromise.
It is possible to make a point with conviction and still not belittle the person who disagrees with you. It is possible to show respect for a point of view that differs from your own. We do not have to be unkind to demonstrate godly conviction.
3) The other guy’s behavior never justifies mine!
This should not need to be said, but it does. Ever found a couple of kids in a squabble and when confronted, they both shouted, “He started it!” How many times have you heard a variation of that in a blogging debate?
If you say something unkind to me, it does not justify me to say something unkind to you. If you insult me, it does not open the door for me to insult you back.
“Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them.” “Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.”
The measure of man comes when he is insulted or demeaned by another. How do you respond then? Do you show respect for those who are unkind to you? Do you respond in kind, or in kindness, when someone provokes you?
Let’s face it (why do I keep saying this?) – every one of us who blogs has failed in this at times. But we need to keep trying.
4) Only those who have the omniscient insight of Christ can use his harsh words to the Pharisees to justify their harsh words.
Jesus knew the hearts of those he addressed. You do not. Yes, Jesus called them vipers and blind guides. He knew their hearts perfectly and so could give perfect judgment. I do not have that level of insight into the human heart, so I should be very careful of giving judgment and condemnation. Until I can imitate Jesus’ sovereignty I should not imitate his judgment.
The fact that Jesus issued judgment against others does not mean that our judgment is justified.
We are heading into a turbulent time in the life of the SBC. We are going to be debating a lot of important, even volatile issues. Who will be the next president of the SBC? The Pastor’s Conference? What are the real problems in the SBC? How big are our problems? What about the GCR task force report? For or against? I’m guessing the Calvinism debate isn’t going away any time soon. The Baptist Identity movement is probably sticking around and those who oppose it will probably continue to do so.
We cannot change the fact that we are going to disagree and we are going to debate the issues on which we disagree.
But, my friends, we can change the WAY we discuss those issues. We can let our speech be gracious, seasoned with salt. We can bless those who persecute us. We can return good for evil. We can debate passionately but also with a spirit of love.
This is the mark of the true disciples of Christ – our love. May the world see Christ in us because it sees the love of Christ in us.



I agree with you for the most part however the comment about the White/Caner issue seems a little misplaced to me. I agree the tone hasn’t been the best, but there seems to be some substance to the charges White made.
Brent,
White is chasing his white whale. He’s obsessed with all things Caner. Why? We know why. Because Caner has been outspoken about Founders type Calvinism, or which White is the poster boy. That’s why White is totally obsessed with Caner.
Dave, Peter, Paul, and Jude…and others…also had some pretty strong words for people, who opposed the Gospel, and who were trying to pervert the Gospel. They also had some pretty stiff words for the apostates and legalizers out there. Did they not? And, they weren’t Jesus. So, I agree with you that our speech should be seasoned with grace. I agree with you that our talk should glorify Christ. But, would you not agree that we should talk plain and clear about those people, who are trying to take us off into errors in doctrine, and even into heresy? Sometimes we have to speak strongly to those people, who are trying to lead others down a wrong path. Correct?
Dave, I also will not vote for Gramling at the SBC Pastors Conf. Not only does his Church give a tiny percentage to the SBC; but he also has female Pastors/Elders on staff. This clearly goes against the BFM2K. This is clearly against the Scripture. Thus, why in the world would this man even be nominated, and nominated by a man on the Great Commission Task Force?????? This concerns me greatly about the future of the SBC. And, it’s not being mean, nasty, vitriolic, or ugly to say this. It’s just the truth.
David
Brother Dave,
Thank you for writing this article. The Saints of Christ have a choice to make. They can either be ministers of Christ …that is, understanding the Holy Spirit’s leading to be members one of another,….or they can be ministers of Satan. Vitriol is being a minister of Satan. There is not one ounce of room for that in the Kingdom of God.
Ephesians 4:15-24 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, (16) from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love. (17) So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, (18) being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; (19) and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. (20) But you did not learn Christ in this way, (21) if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, (22) that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, (23) and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, (24) and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
The tendency to tear down our brothers and sisters in Christ will be with us until we are glorified. In the meantime, we obey as ministers of Satan or ministers of Christ. Overseers remained qualified by understanding their captivity to Christ and obeying his commandment to love. If they cannot, they are disqualified from serving as Overseers in Christ’s church. Vitriol is a disqualifier….. if only the congregations were taught the truth ….so that they would hold their servants faithful to obey Christ and His commands.
Blessings,
Chris
I’m not sure my thoughts on this topic will be welcome here, but Charles Kell is the name of the author I think, who has a book on SBC leadership that may be some background for this topic.
Would be interesting to see how this call for civility may extend to the discussion over the Tea Party rhetoric. Jim Wall openned the door for Richard Land and others to sign a civility in discourse resolution but to my knowledge, Charles Colson, Land and some leaders of Focus on the Family took a pass.
You had several interesting links in the setup piece for this discussion.
Here are two more:
Carl Kell was the author’s name.
Here is a Review:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/In+the+Name+of+the+Father%3a+The+Rhetoric+of+the+New+Southern+Baptist…-a071250021
hmmm… speaking truth in love? That’s a radical concept! Man, I don’t know where you came up with this concept, Dave Miller, but it’s genius. Some might even say “inspired.”
One of the things I often try to (though not always successfully) practice in my commenting and blogging and Facebooking is “if the person I am writing to was sitting across the table from me in the flesh, how would that change what I am writing currently?” Usually I find myself taking extra time to soften and clarify what I am saying.
For some, though, they’ll get into a fight face-to-face just as easily, so that might not help.
I fear such things will only get worse heading into June unless some of the key voices out there really work twice as hard on their “love” as they do on their “truth.”
Awesome post. I think my favorite line is: “Frankly, there is a tendency among some bloggers to equate civility with liberalism, with a lack of conviction about truth. That is not the case.”
I think the reverse is also true. There are many bloggers who cannot theologically tie their shoe, but because they can insult they other side they get a free pass as being “one of the guys.”
Again, great post. You should probably repost this the week before the convention.
Rastis,
or once a week up til the convention!
Dave,
The late Dr. Rogers was wont to say, “If you want to see what is inside a man, jostle him a little and see what spills out.”
I’m not surprised at what is spilling out of men in this age. Even the very best of us are less than completely focused on Christ’s plan and purpose for us. We, contemporary Believers, seem more conformed to the things of this world than transformers of it. Such lack of a singular focus on God’s will creates unseemly ambition, undeserving heroes, and undisciplined lifestyles.
In our study of James chapter three last night we dealt extensively with verse one. He who would be a spiritual leader, must live a life of exemplary deportment, and should he stumble, he must immediately claim 1 John 1:9. However, the carnality so readily apparent in us prevents us from humbling ourselves and being restored. The result is justification of our actions.
Should God not send such a spirit of need for revival in our midst, I fear for the future usefulness of our denomination. I fear Ichabod could be written across the entire denomination. Individually, we must fall on our faces at the feet of Jesus, and cry out for God to raise up leaders whose focus is Jesus Christ and His plan.
Good word Dave. It amazes me to see such venom under the guise of love, or in many cases, humor (what, you can’t take a joke? Lighten up, you humorless sap).
David:
“Thus, why in the world would this man even be nominated, and nominated by a man on the Great Commission Task Force?????? This concerns me greatly about the future of the SBC. And, it’s not being mean, nasty, vitriolic, or ugly to say this. It’s just the truth.”
You’re correct. But the responses to this situation have been mean, nasty, and vitriolic.
By the way, James White is not the poster boy for “Founders type Calvinism”. Founders is an SBC organization and James White is not SBC. The only association that I know of between White and Founders was the ill-fated debate between Ascol/White and the Caners. If anyone, Tom Ascol is the face of the Founders Organization, but few people are willing to jump on him because he’s one of the nicest guys in the SBC. (I say few people are willing to jump on him. There are some.)
I would also suggest that the term “Founders type Calvinism” does not add civility to the debate. First, it doesn’t really have a definition that anyone recognizes. Second, it is a pejorative.
One thing just seems abundantly, and painfully, clear. These things you mention .. the vitriol, the recriminations, all of it .. are not the problem They are symptoms of the problem.
As to all this stuff damaging “the cause of Christ”, that can only happen (in my opinion) if WE are the ones building the church. But we are not. Jesus is doing that, and while He does want our involvement, He does not want our competition (with Him).
From where I sit, Jeremiah 7:16 applies to the SBC and I’m not going to Orlando. Not if I believe what I’ve said and taught.
One man famously said something to the effect that the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to remain silent. I think that would also include participation.
David Miller as SBC President; his name has been broached as a possible candidate by Blake in the WRight Thread in SBC Trends at http://www.baptistlife.com; an interesting scenario for sure.
I lurked through the comment stream at Peter Lump’s blog a few moments ago; lot of yearning for what many called the “Greatest Generation.”
Again most likely not a popular view here but I think the CR bad DNA is showing here; not surprisingly I am inclined to agree with Bill Leonard from the Carl Kell Review:
This is a fascinating study less because it offers any new insights into an old controversy than because it takes seriously the depths of SBC rhetoric. Speeches are not simply symbols of orthodoxy; they perpetuate an approach to orthodoxy that has implications for theological and political agendas. It will be particularly helpful to students of rhetoric and speech. It offers students of the SBC another way of understanding how changes in denominational identity influence denominational positions on ethics, politics, and family. Since the publication of this book, the rhetoric of exclusion has continued with Southern Baptists making declarations regarding Jews, Hindus, and evangelism. If Kell and Camp are correct and the Southern Baptists are on a rhetorical crusade, there is no end in sight.
End WFU’s Div Dean Quote
I think the secular press for the most part will be justified in couching rhetoric of the Orlando SBC in the framework of the reservations raised about the Tea Party Movement rhetoric linked in the tinyurl below.
In that framework it will not help the SBC in my opinion to have Ronnie Floyd front and Center; the first destination of Richard Land’s values bus in 04; the Springdale Pastor who took Bill Clinton’s hand for rededication in Revival Service the Summer of 92; only to take the microphone at Houston SBC in 93 and roundly excoriate the President.
Again, and Iknow this willnot add to my popularity on this board,Kell points to an SBC CR DNA matter of the so called “greatest generation” you fellows will have to come to grips with.
Even so, thanks for hearing me out if indeed you do. To that degree my respect for you holds as I have attempted here to be as straightforward while civil as I can.
Brent, I am not really addressing the substance of the debate (interesting word choice, eh?) but the tone of the debate. Note also that I mentioned (and did so intentionally) the “supporters” of both men. I am not criticizing Caner or White, but the way their followers have argued their points in blogs.
David, I do not have a problem with confronting false doctrine. It is an essential act in this world. My problem is with the way it is done, so often.
Stephen Fox’s comment #4 brought something to light. He lays the charge of incivility against conservative leaders both politically and theologically. He says nothing about the harsh words directed by moderates/liberals against conservatives over the years.
Has only one side been intemperate in words? Of course not.
Our tendency is to bemoan the harsh words on the other side and get “deeply offended” over them. But when someone says something harsh on my side, something I agree with, I consider it a courageous expression of truth.
As godly people, we need to be as offended over the sin committed in our own cause as that which is committed against us.
Partisans condemn the other side while excusing their own. But for us, the end never justifies the means and sin in support of our cause is just as heinous as sin that is done in opposition to it.
Bob Cleveland, I struggled some over the wording of that phrase, “the cause of Christ.” Perhaps I should have said, “the reputation of Christ in the lost world” or something like that. My point was that we need to be careful that we do not demonstrate vitriol and harshness to the world instead of the love of Christ.
Bob, if you swing back by, I am interested in your last statement. Are you saying that the SBC is irredeemably barren? I do not agree, but would be interested in hearing you expand on that.
To Chris, Rastis, Josh, Bill, Mike, et al. Thanks for agreeing with me. That is always a sign of high intelligence!
Dave,
I really appreciate and agree with the emphasis of your post. I just have a few reservations, and I hope they don’t throw the focus off, since the minutiae so often does.
First, you quoted Colossians 4:6: “Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.” Then you go on to say that our conversation needs to be “seasoned with grace.” I think that unfortunately, the problem is our conversations have been “always salty, seasoned with grace” instead of “always gracious, seasoned with salt.” Grace needs to be the substance of our speech, not just an extra seasoning added for flavor.
Second, and this is the point I don’t want to distract the focus, is that we are called to make judgments within the church. The point is not to judge using different standards. I recognize that Jesus was perfect and we are not. But I also believe he lived his life in the power of the Spirit. So when Paul harshly criticized his opponents views and encourages young missionaries and pastors (Timothy and Titus) to rebuke, there is a calling for us to rebuke as well.
Having said that, I agree that we get too giddy about rebuking when we don’t have all the facts or we have a poor attitude. I think we need to have a humble and loving attitude when doing so, as you encourage us to do in your post.
In a book I’ve been listening to, the author points to Paul’s attitude in 1 Corinthians. Here we have a man who has to deliver some harsh rebuke to a group of Christians who are behaving worse than the pagans around them. Yet he starts his letter off by pointing to the grace of God he has witnessed and has heard about in their lives (1:4-9). Grace. I need more of it. Chances are, so do the people we disagree with. Thanks for your gracious article, Dave.
In Re DMiller’s reference to my #4 comment I think his reservations about my sentiment would have more virtue if he would allow my #12 offering to see the light of day. It is still in moderation.
Bill Leonard makes a strong point that surpasses the he said she said back and forth, goes much deeper.
From Leonard’s review of Carl Kell’s book I linked in #4
This is a fascinating study less because it offers any new insights into an old controversy than because it takes seriously the depths of SBC rhetoric. Speeches are not simply symbols of orthodoxy; they perpetuate an approach to orthodoxy that has implications for theological and political agendas. It will be particularly helpful to students of rhetoric and speech. It offers students of the SBC another way of understanding how changes in denominational identity influence denominational positions on ethics, politics, and family. Since the publication of this book, the rhetoric of exclusion has continued with Southern Baptists making declarations regarding Jews, Hindus, and evangelism. If Kell and Camp are correct and the Southern Baptists are on a rhetorical crusade, there is no end in sight.
End WFU’s Div Dean Quote
Andrew, I don’t think we have much in the way of disagreement. I agree that confronting evil, false doctrine or ungodly practice is essential. However, it must not be done with either glee or disdain, but with grace, as you said.
My concern, primarily, is how we do what we do.
Stephen, I know nothing about your #12 comment. However, sometimes a comment with a whole bunch of links will go into the moderation folder.
Stephen, I looked in the moderation folder and actually, you had several comments in there.
It seems that if you put more than 1 link on a post, it is likely to end up in moderation. I didn’t set that up.
As to my being nominated for SBC president, that is about as likely to happen as Ergun Caner and James White vacationing together.
REv Miller: If I have any success with this link I may come back and reference its import later; most likely with a quote where you were suggested as a nominee; one quote, one link seems to be the new parameter, the new paradigm.
If the discussion goes long enough maybe I can string enough thoughts together to approach sensibility.
The Suggested nomination sees merit in you being outside the South.
In the meantime here is a link I think of substance in regard SBC CR rhetoric and Bill Leonard’s insight quoted above.
I hope you can listen to it in chapters, maybe 20 minutes at a time, as it starts slow and you may want to fast forward into the 11th minute.
Here’s a try for a link.
Even so, thanks for hearing me out if indeed you do. To that degree my respect for you holds as I have attempted here to be as straightforward while civil as I can.
http://tinyurl.com/yg5o9v5
# March 29th 2010 at 9:36 am
My apologies to this discussion. I was gonna take a break, but I do thinkmany of you will be interested in the conversation developing between what I understand to be a staffer for SBC Presidential nominee Bryant Wright and a person who thinks David Miller may be a sensiblenominee for SBC President:
http://forums.baptistlife.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8159&p=110014#p110006
Just to clarify for anyone who might be reading this comment stream: I left a comment on the Facebook of a good friend of mine that I was going to nominate him as SBC president. He said he was going to nominate me instead. One of our state staffers got on and said he would second the nomination.
It was a facebook exchange with all the gravity of a 9-year-old’s birthday party. Evidently, someone read that and thought it was a serious discussion.
I have as much of a shot at being the SBC president and the SEC does in this year’s Final Four. (Sorry, CB).
Huggy Bear Dave, aka. BUZZARD EYE,
2 out of 3 ain’t bad. LSU will surely win in baseball.
I think you hold a Most Meanest Baptist Blogger election.
That’s what I am – a big ol’ huggy bear.
Miami is back this year in baseball, but honestly, who really cares? In baseball, the Yankees are all that matters.
I believe the vitriol stems from one of two primary factors. Some of it is a result of fear, mainly the fear that something precious is slipping out of hand. People who believe the denomination is being taken over by liberals, Emergents or whatever will often speak with the strongest words. If we can beat those groups down strongly enough then maybe we won’t lose control after all. Of course, that begs the question that we are somehow in control to begin with. It is fundamentally a lack of faith in God.
On the other hand, much of it comes from our own psychoses (and I use that in a rather technical sense, not a demeaning sense). We’re simply not very healthy, on the whole. Our churches are a mess and our denomination tends to be a mess because we are a mess. Studies indicate that pastors tend to be insecure. Who could blame us. I mean, when your life is spent under the magnifying glass and churches tend to be hypercritical we do much damage to those who serve us in pastoral leadership. But that lack of health results in a lot of unhealthy coping skills and messy ways of responding to one another. Sometimes I think we talk to one another like we do because we’re just letting the other guy have what we’d really like to give that overbearing deacon’s wife or that Sunday School teacher who’s had it in for us. We can’t lash out at them without some serious consequence but we can lash out at a fellow pastor we disagree with because there really are no repercussions. Again, we’re just not very healthy, and there are a lot of reasons for that.
I might add a third and that is that we are largely a spiritually immature denomination (or convention of churches if you prefer).
Rich,
I’m not sure I agree with all that you say. It is not just fear that leads us to protect ourselves from false doctrine and heterodox practice in the church. I think it is necessary that we do so.
My point is that we can take our stands with grace and even kindness.
There are two dangers I think we need to avoid:
1) The danger of being so “kind” and “open” that we refuse to stand against false doctrine (which I think is rampant) and practices in the church. We can become wishy-washy.
It is interesting that Jesus called both the churches of Pergamum and Thyatira to repent because they were tolerant of evil in the church.
It is no virtue to ignore false doctrine and practice.
2) The danger of being obnoxious and harsh as we take our stands, of being ungodly in our demeanor, of failing to love one another as we should, of making mountains out of molehills.
We cannot afford to embrace either of these mistakes.
Huggy Bear Dave,
The comment Rich makes is similar (but not exactly alike) to those made by people who say preachers who preach against alcohol are closet drunks or those who preach against sexual immorality are filled with unbridled lust or those who preach against living a Sodomite life-style are either homophobic or have unrequited homosexual desires.
It is true that there are a few who do such things for the reasons listed. But in general, those who preach against sin of any kind are simply being obedient to the mandate of Scripture.
I have often wondered how Amos would be received today were he a blogger?
Dave (and CB),
I did not say that fear keeps people from standing against sin and error. I said that fear contributes to the vitriolic posture in taking those stands. Note that I wrote, “I believe the vitriol stems from one of two primary factors.” Certainly one can have valid objections. One simply doesn’t have to look or act like a horse’s behind while doing so. I realize that some don’t quite understand that distinction, CB. I also understand that God’s spokesmen sometimes sounded harsh. Just not all the time. Now if we could just help you to understand that it’s ok not to sound harsh in every conversation that isn’t about Alabama football or Nick Saban then we might make some progress.
Rich, I think I see what you are saying now, and if I understand you, I would agree that perhaps fear, loss of control, etc, may be issues that cause certain people to resort to vitriol.
CB, here’s my basic quarrel with the use of Jesus, the biblical prophets and the NT apostles to justify harsh and condemning words. They had an insight and authority we do not have. The OT prophets spoke under the direct word of the Lord. Jesus was Jesus. The apostles had apostolic authority. If we do not have their authority, we should no try to claim their insight, nor should we imitate their words.
We ought to follow the commands of scripture given to us, to rebuke one another gently and with grace and humility.
I do not think one can claim the mantle of Amos, Jesus or Paul when calling men of God “girly-men” or questioning the commitment of another to the Great Commission (as per my examples above).
Rich, I appreciate the spirit of our dialog. But, now, you have poked the Bama Bear and I would suggest you run (don’t walk) to the hills for safety.
Dave,
I appreciate the dialog as well. I’m probably going to show my colors here just a little, but when I mention fear I think that fear often stems from a basic misunderstanding regarding Providence and God’s sovereign work in the world. If I don’t yell as loudly as I can then things may well spin out of control. I think deep down that is how some feel. I know there have been times in the past that has been true for me. I shouted down homosexuals because I was in fear of the “homosexual agenda.” Well, while I certainly don’t want that sort of agenda becoming the norm I also realize that even if it does God will still sit on his throne. The Roman Empire was much more corrupt and immoral than ours (if that can be imagined) yet the church prevailed and God did some great work through his people in those days. He did it, by and large, apart from the church yelling either at Roman culture or at one another. I hate to put it this way, but I think a weak view of God that has come as our heritage largely through Revivalism and Arminianism has contributed to this problem, though I understand many would disagree. But, if it’s “up to us” in the end, then there is much to fear.
As to my fear of CB, I think I can safely say that I am safely out of range even of his long rifle.
Blogging would lose much of its joy if I didn’t have CB harrassing me, and me attempting to harass him back. It is one of my great joys.
CB (I hope he’s not listening) barks loudly and bites at times. But the great thing about him is you can go toe to toe with him (as I have several times) and still walk away friends.
Rich, let me broach what I believe is a fundamental problem with modern evangelicalism and even Baptist life.
I do not think we have an adequate doctrine of the Holy Spirit. He is the one who works inside us to make us holy, to convince us of truth and to convict us of sin.
Many Christians I run into do not really understand the Spirit’s role. He is real and active. My job is to proclaim truth as clearly as I can. It is the Spirit’s job to convince and convict. I’m not sure we always trust him to do that work.
I believe that a lot of trouble comes when we try to BE the Holy Spirit in the lives of others. We try to convince them (sometimes through manipulation, or bullying or badgering or nagging or whatever) of the truth and convict them of sin.
I try to do my job as I see it. I need to be direct, uncompromising and biblical as I hold forward the truth of God. On the other hand, I need to trust that the Spirit of God will use the Word of God to do God’s work among God’s people.
Dave,
Good word. I agree. It seems to me that we are called primarily to be proclaimers, not convincers. The Spirit of God is the convincer. There have been, and will be, many times when our proclamation goes unheeded. If I am convinced that it is up to me than I will probably yell louder, work on my technique and put it in four color. If I am convinced it is up to God to change a heart then I can proclaim the truth in love and walk away knowing that even if my proclamation was unpolished, weak and feeble, God’s power to save is still great because his Spirit still moves.
I struggle with this, and I’ll admit it. I struggle with the word “idiot”. That word is never constructive, but I find myself using it too often. I find myself asking things like “does that God know there is a New Testament” when I perceive legalism, or I ask “has he read Romans” when dealing with many of the common theological issues that face us. I have done it on this blog, and for those of you who I have insulted or slandered (except for Dave Miller), I am sorry and I humble ask you to forgive me. I joke with Dave because I think (hope) he knows that I look up to him and respect him a great deal. Yankees and all.
I love Jesus and I cherish His word and teachings above all, but I love the SBC. I have been shown much grace and mercy by leaders in the SBC. When I was ready to throw in the towel and join my non-denom friends because of the frustration of being trampled, I heard a message from Jimmy Draper that made me stick it out. I have had great friends and pastors who have invested so much in me, and for that I love our Denomination, and I don’t want to see it die. If we don’t learn to act a little more like Christians and a little less like Baptists, it just might. Yes, that is a loaded statement, you can do with it what you will.
Do you struggle with being an hour and a half late for lunch?
No, it wasn’t a struggle at all.
The way I remember it Jerry accused Morris of saying that cooperation was more important that the Great Commission. Others at the meeting said Morris never made that statement and Jerry apologized. Of course Jerry has been on the receiving end of the same kind of vitriol. Ergun Caner accused Jerry of lying and supporting heresy. Caner also had to back down and apologize. Even that was not as vitriolic as the attack entity head Paige Patterson of SEBTS and now SWBTS made against Jerry. He worked though his pal Keith Eitel to send material to the IMB trustees attacking Rankin’s leadership, theology and integrity. I do not know of any time in my life time when one entity head has attacked another with such vitriol.
Of course the general method of using harsh language to attack those that disagree with you has been an accepted tactic in SBC life for some time. Just a few years ago a prominent SBC leader described those that opposed his political organization as skunks. His remarks were greeted by thunderous applause. You asked, “When did this kind of vitriol and name-calling become styled as a virtue in SBC debate?” I believe it started about 30 years ago. I know I never noticed it to such an extent before.
The worst name you can call a Southern Baptist is liberal. I was at the SBC in 1979 when the word was used over and over to attack SBC leaders. The most common term was ultra liberal. Then it changed to liberal and then moderate. The most important thing was make sure you had a label for your opponents. When you don’t want to defend you position and you have no facts to back up your charges or you main purpose is to denigrate your opponent then using labels is the best strategy.
How about at SBC Impact? Do we use harsh demeaning words or labels in our discussions? I will give my thoughts in another post.
Are we at SBC Impact any different that Caner or Lumpkins when it comes to vitriol? I have been called a liberal, moderate, ignorant, bitter, slanderous, consumed by hatred, accused of hating the SBC and much more at SBC Impact. But that is okay. What really concerns me is when attacks are made on the SBC or its entities or its missionaries. Let me give you two examples.
Mike Rasberry stated the following in David Miller’s post on inerrancy. “I simply cannot understand anyone not accepting the liberal leanings of a great many appointees under the old Parks and earlier regime and must assume such people as either : (1) Ignorant, or (2) Willfully deceptive.”
There were thousands of missionary appointees under the Keith Parks regime. Mike has placed them all under suspicion of being liberal. I served through Parks regime and served with those appointees. I do not accept his accusation so therefore I must be ignorant. The charge of ignorance would include all the WMU ladies I know and almost all the missionaries I know. If David Rogers reads this, I think you probably served with many of those appointees. Would you classify yourself as accepting Mike’s charge, ignorant or willfully deceptive? Evidently we must be one of those 3 options.
Mike also charged that at one time the Baptist Sunday School Board was led by drunks when he said in #279 on inerrancy, “BSSB leaders were arrested for public drunkeness on the parking lot of the BSSB building in Nashville.” I only know of one incident occurring in the parking lot of the BSSB. It involved one person who some in leadership though was having a mental breakdown or was in danger of harming himself. They arranged for the police to meet him in the parking lot to take him for an evaluation. I think it just turned out he was only an angry man and he ended up suing the leaders who made that charge. Notice it was one employee and not leaders. He was not drunk. He was not arrested. Mike if you are talking about a different time please tell us when this occurred and how many leaders were arrested. Five, Ten, Twenty?? Were they having a beer party in the BSSB or possibly a wine tasting party. Inquiring minds want to know. CB was a BSSB trustee. Maybe he can shed light on the truth.
I am picking on Mike here but using vitriol, name-calling and harsh language is not an uncommon occurrence at SBC Impact. Is SBC Impact part of the problem or part of the solution? I admit I am not without guilt.
Does everything have to be about the perceived evils of the CR?
Actually, Ron – one of the things I like best about IMPACT is that it is a place where disagreement and discussion can take place in a respectful way.
Pretty much all of us are CR supporters here. But you have posted hundreds of comments (I would guess) almost all of them focused on the evils of the CR. You have been given a forum to disagree with us at some length. Not all sites would give you that.
Dave and Rich,
First, let me say that we can agree that the Church will prevail no matter what happens on this planet including the complete fall of the American Flag and the Republic for which it stands.
Second, Rich please notice I said “The comment Rich makes is similar (but not exactly alike)….” meaning there are some similarities only.
Third: Dave you are right. We are not apostles or OT prophets. But we do have the authority of the Word of God and to a degree we are NT prophets. Sometimes truth is just plain and harsh. We must not shy away from that. I referred to Amos. The prophecies of Amos are at times harsh, but not all the time. I am sure that Amos was not always harsh and we should not be constantly harsh either. Actually the opposite should be true. Harshness should be reserved for time of necessity. And I believe there are times of necessity to be harsh.
Fourth: Dave, I did not call any one a girly-man if you are in reference to Peter’s post. The truth is that I probably know most of those guys better than Peter. I would not consider any of them girly-men. That was not my post. That was Peter’s.
Fifth: Sorry guys, but if you have the idea that I stand and scream, yell and jump up and down in situations of disagreement, you are wrong. If a situation gets to the point even wherein I must call a person a liar, I do so rather calmly and coldly with little or no concern as to the consequences. I have the scars to prove it. My job is to be obedient to the mandates of the Word of God. The consequences of my obedience are in the hands of God.
Lastly: Rich, what goes around, comes around. And everything eventually comes around to Alabama football and the SEC while everything goes away from Iowa football and all other Conferences. Of such is the nature of life. I am of the SABANATION. You and Dave are not. You both have my pity. Yet the truth is often harsh. We win, everybody else looses. Harsh? Yes. But reality nonetheless.
CB, let me clarify – I did not direct this post at or against you. As you well know, if I wanted to say something to you by way of rebuke, I would call, text, email or something else.
I wasn’t even really focusing on Peter, though I thought his words were shameful. I was looking at the general tendency toward overblown language in blogging and in general communication.
Huggy Bear Dave,
I know what you were saying. I just wanted to make sure I was on record as not calling those particular guys girly-men. My response to you regarding that was basically to your comment #31. I had made reference to Amos. And then you referenced Amos also.
At this present time the only guys I know of whom I have called girly-men play football for a little cow college in Iowa.
CB, one more thing.
I have no trouble calling those who are “false” by name and identifying them. I called out Joel Osteen from the pulpit Sunday. I have confronted Emergent Church, etc often. My sermons are online and you can listen to them. I am not shy about being direct.
But I think there is a big difference between the way we treat false brethren and the way we treat errant brothers. If I disagree with a brother, I do so with tact, within a spirit of love (well, that’s what I’m supposed to do).
The question really is what things define someone as “false” and what issues are just among brothers.
I think, from our long history of blogging together, that I would often classify as “disagreements among brothers” what you would classify as “false brothers” issues.
Does that make sense?
CB, comment 45 has deeply offended me.
I still want to have lunch with you in Orlando. However, I will not eat dessert with you and you must pay the entire tip!
Ron West: Dwight McKissic has challenged Peter Lumpkins to debate. Please see comment #4 in this thread as it frames nicely my thoughts here:
David Miller as SBC President; his name has been broached as a possible candidate by Blake in the WRight Thread in SBC Trends at http://www.baptistlife.com; an interesting scenario for sure.
I lurked through the comment stream at Peter Lump’s blog a few moments ago; lot of yearning for what many called the “Greatest Generation.”
Again most likely not a popular view here but I think the CR bad DNA is showing here; not surprisingly I am inclined to agree with Bill Leonard from the Carl Kell Review:
This is a fascinating study less because it offers any new insights into an old controversy than because it takes seriously the depths of SBC rhetoric. Speeches are not simply symbols of orthodoxy; they perpetuate an approach to orthodoxy that has implications for theological and political agendas. It will be particularly helpful to students of rhetoric and speech. It offers students of the SBC another way of understanding how changes in denominational identity influence denominational positions on ethics, politics, and family. Since the publication of this book, the rhetoric of exclusion has continued with Southern Baptists making declarations regarding Jews, Hindus, and evangelism. If Kell and Camp are correct and the Southern Baptists are on a rhetorical crusade, there is no end in sight.
End WFU’s Div Dean Quote
I think the secular press for the most part will be justified in couching rhetoric of the Orlando SBC in the framework of the reservations raised about the Tea Party Movement rhetoric linked in the tinyurl below.
In that framework it will not help the SBC in my opinion to have Ronnie Floyd front and Center; the first destination of Richard Land’s values bus in 04; the Springdale Pastor who took Bill Clinton’s hand for rededication in Revival Service the Summer of 92; only to take the microphone at Houston SBC in 93 and roundly excoriate the President.
Again, and Iknow this willnot add to my popularity on this board,Kell points to an SBC CR DNA matter of the so called “greatest generation” you fellows will have to come to grips with.
Even so, thanks for hearing me out if indeed you do. To that degree my respect for you holds as I have attempted here to be as straightforward while civil as I can.
(link removed)
The latest is Dwight McKissic is nominating Fred Luter for Pres of the SBC and Gramling as head of the Pastor’s Conference.
Dwight has blogged a challenge to debate Peter Lumpkins anytime, anywhsre
CB, I caught your distinction. However, I think we both know that there is generally an underlying message when someone starts making those kinds of comparisons. It would be like me saying that the comment CB makes is similar, but not exactly like something James Carville might say. Why not just take my comment for what it is rather than compare it to those danged moderates/liberals from the past?
At any rate, on this we can likely agree: whatever it is they’re doing in Iowa can only loosely be called “football.”
Et tu, Rich?
Dave, I’m sure Iowa is good for a great number of things like wrestling, but when it comes to football it is like…like…Nevada or Kentucky or Minnesota or Illinois. Maybe slightly better than New Hampshire, Rhode Island and Delaware. I’m not trying to be vitriolic here, but as they say: “Facts is facts.”
1 Unknown???
2 Texas 13-1 1399
3 Florida 13-1 1370
4 Boise State 14-0 1366
5 Ohio State 11-2 1224
6 TCU 12-1 1163
7 Iowa 11-2 1126
8 Cincinnati 12-1 1060
9 Penn State 11-2 1016
10 Virginia Tech 10-3 953
Facts is facts!! If our QB hadn’t gotten hurt we’d have gone 12-0 and played that Unknown school for the BCS championship. Righteousness, I’m sure, would have prevailed!
Well, Dave, I’m thinking more in terms of a body of work, not one year. ESPN ranks Iowa the 30th football program overall since 1936. If you throw in that other school from Iowa that plays “football” (Iowa State at 114), it just gets worse.
I think Iowa State disbanded football about a decade ago. Of course, they play in the Conference of the Sisters of Mercy (also known as the Big-12).
Ron West: See my comments 4 and 18 in this stream. The Carl Kell link in particular adds substance to your insight into CR DNA. I share similar thinking with you on this matter.
The latest is Dwight McKissic’s blogged intention to nominate Fred Luter as President of SBC, and his support of Gramling for Pastor’s Conference leadership.
Dwight challenges to debate Peter Lumpkins anytime, anywhere.
Ron West,
Let me say, First of all, that I never said, nor intend to imply that every missionary was liberal or liberal leaning, had they been, there would have been NO CR. That men and women who were conservative were appointed as missionaries is without question true.
I DID SAY “a great many” had liberal leanings. I stand by that, and it has borne itself out over the last fifteen years, and believe there can be only one reason for individuals to deny it.
You are correct when you say that “one person was detained” from the parking lot, and perhaps my statement was a bit strong. My point was to bring out the permissive attitude of those in leadership at the Board at that time. The statement I made should have been rewritten thusly, “The coverup of activities by some those employed by the BSSB came to a head when one such employee was arrested for public drunkenness on the parking lot of the BSSB, causing great consternation among SBC churches, and furthering the sense of distrust between denominational employees pastors of local churches.” I can also say that the media report of the account showed none of what you say, and that never received widespread dissemination. But the trust level was such that I’m doubtful any explanations would have been accepted as fact.
As to the WMU, I will let that stand on its own merits. WMU made its bed under Weatherford. The direction they chose is obviously not consistent with the majority of SBC churches.
MikeR: Don’t want to go around the corner; the bend (great movie, btw, with Christopher Walken) again, but very curious; the tract,short book of 04 or so, Stand With Christ, about the 80 or so IMB missionaries who resigned en masse from the IMB; did you have the opportunity to see it; and OR the video 93 or so when IMB trustees took Delanna Obrien and WMU staff to task. SC’s Don Purvis was key interrogator in that drama.
Either instructional aid, the book and or the video; did it cross your radar?
Just curious.
I deny a great many missionaries had liberal leanings. As David Miller often says about his beliefs, I was there, I saw it, I experienced it.
The following is a statement by Jerry Rankin a few years ago when trustees were making statements similar to Mike’s. I agree with Jerry and his statements are no different than could have been made at any time in the 30 years I served with the board. If you wish to call me ignorant you can. I am in good company.
————————————————————–
Rankin finished his report saying he felt compelled, on behalf of the missionaries, to say he was not aware of doctrinal problems among IMB missionaries. He said he knows the rumors and innuendoes and that they have been going on a long time.
“You screened them, you examined their denominational loyalty, their faith, their church background and commitment, their affirmation of the Baptist Faith and Message, and our regional leaders are in touch with them, monitoring them,” Rankin said. “If there were any problems of doctrinal aberrations, of charismatic influences or practices, or even tolerance, or anyone not practicing baptism, or contributing in any way to ecumenical-type practices, we would know about it and deal with it.
“It is disrespectful to missionaries –- those giving their lives and sacrifices and taking their families and laying their lives on the line -– that anyone, without identifying and verifying facts, would spread rumors and innuendoes about doctrinal issues on the field. I want to make a public comment and stand for our missionaries in defense of their faithfulness.”
—————————————————————-
I too want to stand for our missionaries. I am embarrassed that more at SBC Impact are not willing to do the same.
Ron West
Ron,
I think most pastors “stand with” the missionaries. However, I’m thankful for the CR and the recent movement toward clarifying what the BF&M means.
I’m also thankful that those who cannot sign the BF&M respectfully serve in another venue. If a local church, or group of local churches wants to send a missionary who cannot sign the document, I have no argument with that. I can even work with those who do not sign the document, I just can’t support them.
In years gone past, people signed documents even though they didn’t agree based upon their commitment to change the document. Now, people aren’t doing that. They demonstrate a much greater integrity, in my opinion.
I really don’t believe what I’ve stated is Vitriol. I have tried to speak with the constraint of a Christian Gentleman. Strong perhaps, but certainly not unreflective of Christ. I don’t think I’ve yet called anyone a bunch of snakes.
Ron,
You said: “I too want to stand for our missionaries. I am embarrassed that more at SBC Impact are not willing to do the same.”
Not sure who you have in mind here, or exactly how anyone at SBC Impact may not be willing to “stand for our missionaries.” Could you please explain yourself?
David Rogers, here is what I meant. Mike Rasberry has made the following statements either in Dave Miller’s post on inerrancy or in this post.
In speaking of our missionaries he stated, “most were moderate to liberal theologically, not just in methods, during the late 1950’s to late 1970’s, I believe.”
He also said our missionaries in Taejon did not oppose the belief that if you were dedicated to God while in the womb you had no need of making a personal commitment to Christ.
He then said, “The FMB under Parks was drug kicking and screaming into the second half of the twentieth Century.”
That was followed by, “the majority of SBC missionaries prior to the CR were either liberal, or sympathetic toward liberal causes.”
None of these statements are true but he then went on to divide us into the following categories by saying, “I simply cannot understand anyone not accepting the liberal leanings of a great many appointees under the old Parks and earlier regime and must assume such people as either : (1) Ignorant, or (2) Willfully deceptive.”
Mike also said LEADERS of the BSSB were arrested for public drunkenness in the parking lot of the BSSB. He admitted this statement was untrue but it would have been left on SBC Impact if I had not challenged him.
As usual, no one at SBC Impact challenged his statements about our missionaries but me. They are no more true than the statement about the BSSB. For challenging the statements about our missionaries and the BSSB I am described as being vitriolic. Mike however is given the title of Supreme Pontiff of all SBC affairs. This is personal to me. If I did not challenge these statements, I would be a traitor to those missionaries I have served with and unworthy of their respect.
David Rogers, you may not have read these statements by Mike since it was not on your post. I am wondering if you agree with Mike’s statements about our missionaries.
Stand with Christ; Absolutely no evidence MikeR has read the book. Ron West speaks Truth to Power here on this board about the DNA of the rhetoric of the CR that births it congenitally deformed.
Wade Burleson, a signer of the Memphis Declaration fellowshipped with the Baptist Covenant community in Oklahoma last summer and said they were good people.
Folks like this board’s DAvid Rogers shows signs of good will from his own testimony from Spain. Let’s be honest here.
Ron,
You are wrong. I stand by what I said concerning the FMB. I also stand by most of what I said about the BSSB. Now, I’m sure David wasn’t there during those days, you might have been. I don’t know your age, or the level of involvement you had. If you were in leadership, you might or might not have been part of the problem. I’ve never heard of you before SBCImpact. So I can’t say.
There were severe problems with theology, methods, and ethics. I’m not against any of our ministries, but I do know that should those areas have not been cleaned out, the SBC would be more like Methodism than Baptists because the Conservatives would have drifted away.
The FMB was probably our best institution during those years. The missionaries were dedicated, even if beginning to drift theologically. The seminary in Taejon definitely had some good people in it, but some in it also allowed such accommodation to culture that many graduates absolutely DID come out believing that they did not have to make a personal commitment to Christ. Now, I lived among those people for several years, and whether or not you want to accept it, it is true.
As to Parks being drug “kicking and screaming,” it is established fact. They tried to prevent SBC churches from having direct interaction with foreign churches. Emissaries were dispatched on multiple occasions to attempt to dissuade us from taking a team into an area where no SBC work was being done, but was then home to refugees from another country where we had worked with them. Those individuals started churches and asked for our help because they.
The organization the FMB purchased from “Dub” Jackson, former missionary to Japan, was the ONLY organization deemed acceptable to Parks’ FMB during those years.
Why do you think a group of Southern Baptists started an alternative sending agency in Tupelo, Mississippi during those years? It was because the perception was that the FMB was unresponsive.
Again, Most individual missionaries were dedicated and loved the Lord, but they had been indoctrinated by extremely liberal professors in Seminary and worked under a liberal leaning leadership. I have many, many friends who were missionaries from that era, we disagree about many things, and I would not want most to serve as denominational missionaries because of some of their views, BUT that doesn’t make them bad people. They just need another venue through which to exercise the gifts God has given them, not representing Southern Baptists to the World.
Ron,
If I spent all of my time debunking everything I disagree with on every post at sbcIMPACT, I wouldn’t have much time for anything else. As is, I probably spend far more time doing that, at times, than I ought to.
In any case, Mike is right. I am too young to have direct knowledge on the specific points you are arguing. At least, before my appointment with the IMB in 1994 (my first 4 years in Spain were with another organization), I did not have much direct contact with FMB/IMB missionaries. I can say I have met a few since 1994 that were a bit “liberal-leaning,” as Mike says, though they have been the exception to the rule.
As far as the accusation of public drunkenness on the BSSB parking lot is concerned, this is the first I have heard of it. If you knew this was untrue, you did well to refute it.
That is part of the reality of blog comment streams. People are free, for the most part, to write what they please. Others are free to refute them. My guess is none of the contributors at sbcIMPACT refuted the things you said needed refuting because they did not have direct knowledge one way or the other.
One caveat, I did not say that the public drunkenness DID NOT happen. It did. I did say that Ron offered insight which I had never heard before, therefore, based upon that information, I was probably a little overboard.
I DID NOT in anyway mean that the perception of an attitude of premissiveness in personal lifestyle did not prevail at BSSB. That perception DID exist. That doesn’t mean that everybody associated with the BSSB was so infected, but there was great distrust of those in leadership there by rank and file Southern Baptists and events like the one mentioned exacerbated that notion.
Bob Marsh, Dwight McKissic and Mike Rasberry; These three men seem to have witnessed the same thing and come to very different conclusions.
I have in the past sared Marsh’s 1990 witness of the heart of the SBC controversy in the 80′s; key segments of his statement to his Deacons. Maybe MikeR didn’t see it as his post above remembers a quite different world of challenges and remedies.
Dwight McKissic has this statement in the story up today at ABP:
McKissic said he does not believe Gramling’s views on women in ministry fall beyond parameters of the SBC’s 2000 revision of its doctrinal statement, the Baptist Faith and Message, but he contends that more is at stake than personalities.
“The SBC must repent of systemic, institutionalized and historic negative attitudes toward women, race and dissenters,” he wrote. “When we repent of our sins and turn from our wicked ways, then God will forgive our sins and heal our convention and anoint us to go forth with power in carrying out the Great Commission.”
Thank you David. However, I am certain you must have worked with those who were appointed during the time Mike refers to or those who would have been influenced by all those liberal leanings. I am sure you would have noticed that if it were true.
Mike, I believe you actually believe the things you are claiming about our missionaries from your perspective and your limited time with those missionaries. From my perspective and the fact that I lived and worked day to day with those missionaries for years, I disagree with you. I guess we can agree to disagree but I will also speak up when I hear people accuse our missionaries of theological liberalism and I will say as Jerry Rankin said, I want to make a public comment and stand for our missionaries in defense of their faithfulness. It seems there are few at SBC Impact with a similar commitment.
Ron,
Yes, I have known, and worked alongside, various missionaries who were appointed before we got to “the mission field.” I include them, as well as some appointed after us, when I say, “I can say I have met a few since 1994 that were a bit ‘liberal-leaning,’ as Mike says, though they have been the exception to the rule.”
It seems odd to me that you continue to want to make an issue, by saying, once again, “It seems there are few at SBC Impact with a similar commitment.” Was my response in comment #65 not an adequate reply to this? Is there someone in particular who you think knows enough about this, that ought to be speaking up, and who, for some reason or another, is not?
Stephen Fox,
I guess my theological education missed some important parts: Just how does an institution “repent?”
There is no such thing as “The SBC” except for two days in June. McKissic and I would disagree on many things.
All I can say, Stephen, is HA!! Ha!! HA!! Those are three deep belly laughs over your post. I know that you don’t really believe everything you post, you’re really some devilish fundamentalist trying to do a little pot stirring, right???
MikeR:
I stir a little.
All I’m sayin at this juncture is McKissic is sharing his heart and Wade Burleson is sharing his heart, just like I heard Big John Bisagno share his heart in his nomination of Morris Chapman in New Orleans in 1990 when Judge Pressler got on the microphone on the Platform to address a Resolution I had offerred about Jesse Helms and the award Richard Land and Albert Lee Smith had given him that year; an election year best I remember.
I think the SBC Repented in 1995; made national news, so maybe that is the way it Repents.
And here is what Adrian Rogers contemporary at NOBTS said to his Deacons at 2nd Ponce in June 1990; when he hears of it I think Dwight McKissic may want to add it to the list of the things the SBC could repent from when they meet in Orlando; speaking of which have you heard Jim Henry’s daughter Kate Campbell’s version of Kris Kristofferson’s song about Jesus, Martin, Mahatma Ghandi
Anyway here are Marsh’s concerns for the stirrin:
I want to say this as objectively as possible and simply give the facts as they have been given to me, not from reading the AJC or the Christian Index; but these items on the agenda have been given to me eye to eye conversation with dear friends with whom I may disagree very thoroughly but who have been clear enough to state the political agenda of the conservative movement.
1)Since 79 The Conservative Resurgence among SBC has tried to move us to a righ wing political philosophy and insisted that a conservative believer would be a political conservative….
2)I have had it stated to me very clearly eye to eye; “If you don’t vote for Ronald Reagan or George Bush there is no way you can claim to be a follower of Jesus Christ.
3) A strong military build up is a very important item on the political agenda….You are going to be supportive of what we did in Granda and Panama. If not, then there is something wrong with your commitment to the Word of God
4)If you favored giving away the Panama Canal, there is no way you can call yourself a Bible Believer
5) Capitalism is the only economic system to be found in the Word of God
6)If you believe the Bible, you will oppose the Equal rights Amendment
7)If you are a Bible believer, you will be Pro NRA…
Question is should these positions become a litmus test for participation in the Kingdom of God
More frightening, Should this agenda be the basis which determines whether a person can teach or serve on a board of trustees for one of our Baptist Institutions?
BTW: Have you had a chance to look at Burleson’s Matthew 23 blog?
Stephen,
Just curious. Do you think it is possible to be biblically fundamentalist and politically neutral? Do you think some who supported/support the Conservative Resurgence in the SBC might even answer to this description?
Not meaning to imply I consider myself to be totally politically neutral. I think I have described my own views on politics pretty well here.
I did, Stephen. I stopped commenting on Wade’s site long before he closed comments or I would probably have said something there.
I think his comment crossed a line we should not cross. I am guessing someone will accuse me of vitriol here, but I am giving a public review of a publicly written post.
I thought it bordered on blasphemous, frankly. Who granted Wade the authority to rewrite scripture and set himself up as the judge of the leaders and pastors of the SBC?
I can say, “this is what I think.” I can say that some of the leaders of the SBC have made some poor choices. I have done that regularly. I have strongly disagreed with Dr. Patterson’s actions and the attempt to force out Dr. Rankin. I opposed the IMB policies both publicly and privately.
I believe in the right to dissent.
But when I re-write scripture, I am elevating the authority of my comments. I am claiming divine authority, a “thus saith the Lord” weight. Wade Burleson is welcome to his opinion and to share them. He does not get to rewrite scripture to buttress his personal campaign against the leaders of the SBC. If he needs to repent for something, let him do so. But I do not need him repenting on my behalf, or on behalf of the other pastors of the SBC. To my knowledge, no one voted him as the Holy Spirit of the SBC.
I was amazed at the arrogance, the hubris of that post. I thought it violated the commandment against using the Lord’s name in vain. I thought it was a slander against countless SBC pastors and leaders who attempt to serve God. I thought that he came close to blasphemy in putting himself in the place of God.
I have no problem with making specific criticisms of the SBC’s leaders. But that kind of general condemnation is not, as I see it, in the Spirit of Christ.
FYI,
I posted comment 73 and then edited it. This post in on vitriol and anger in our words. I tried to state my objections to what Wade wrote, my strong feelings that it was sinful to write as he did. I tried to do it without anger or inflated rhetoric. I’m guessing Wade’s supporters might not agree.
I have emailed a copy of the comment to Wade as a courtesy. I figured if I said something about him, I should try to say it to him as well.
If you get the comments on an email feed, you will notice the edits in the previous comment. That is why I posted this.
David Rogers:; in re your comment 73 about CR and political neutrality. Yes that is possible; but so rare in the case of the leadership of the CR as not to be germane to the discussion.
The Dallas Roundtable of 1980 is case in point; and all kind of scholarship bears it out
Here is a short list mostly from the BX 6400′s that document my point
Ellen Rosenberg’s final Chapter in SB’s in Transition.
Oran Smith’s The Rise of Baptist Republicaniam.
Moyers interview with Judge Pressler on National PBS December 1987
Barry Hankins’Uneasy in Babylon.
David Morgan on the Baptist Crusaders
Joe Ferguson’s political biography on Jesse Helms, especially the final chapter The Red, White and Blue Bible.
Here on Maundy Thursday where I plead for as much Grace and Mercy as you, I sense in your heart a different bent that what I understood that of your Dad to be.
I think you are groping for a notion that is most perfected to me in the thought of Marilynne Robinson and Mark Noll.
On the other hand, it has been brought to my attention strongly in the last couple days the 30th Anniversary of the assassination of Oscar Romero of El Salvador. I include Romero in my pantheon of Saints; up there with Abraham Lincoln, ML King Jr. and Alabama’s Judge Frank Johnson.
The SBC CR was as disastrously silent on King as they are now either silent or ignorant about the legacy and witness of Romero.
I think it is safe to say Jim Henry’s daughter http://www.katecampbell.com would include Romero in her song My God they Killed Him.
So to that extend political neutrality is an evil.
Otoh in comparing Karl Rove to Emanuel Rahm, it’s a tougher call; but do take a look at religion dispatches piece on Al Mohler and Martin King’s predecessor Vernon Johns. In all sincerity that is the very significant needle I am trying to thread here.
Thank you for your civil indulgence with me on this matter.
And in re you and Wade and the MemDec; you may find the energized give and take between Bruce Gourley and an American Baptist on STandards at bl.com fascinating.
In that discussion I plead Delmar from Oh Brother, to wit: “I’m with you fellas.”
I hope this doesn’t come across as vitriolic on a post about vitriol, but am I the only one who thinks 1) Fox gives Henry David Therau a run for his money in the genre of stream-of-consciousness rambling and 2) We should create an award for the first person in each thread who completely derails the discussion. We could call it “The Foxy”.
I think Thoreau is spelled kinda like I just did; and Foxxy has two xxes
Stuart, I don’t know you but you may like the nationally celebrated Short Story writer George Singleton, one of whose collections is titled Half Mammals of Dixie.
As for derailing Ithought it was one of my better efforts to answer David Rogers in a thread where I have added significant fodder to the proposition.
Welcome to my life, Stuart!
Stuart,
The difference is that Steve did not sit in the woods by Walden Pond. He sits in the woods by the Coosa River and develops his thoughts before bringing them to Yankee Huggy Bear Dave’s place to drive his uncultured Yankee mind to the brink of insanity.
These People Are Us. I know links are often frowned on here at the Impact, but I think this one is most timely.
I do hope CB Scott will be present the next time John Killian hosts the Larry Nelson Singers at Maytown Baptist Church, though that has nothing to do with the link to follow.
I join a kidney doctor in Arkansas as big fans of the LN Family.
George Singleton on how to find a good wife and other metaphysic.
http://www.georgesingleton.com/2007/08/these-people-are-us.html
Steve,
John invited me to come and I wish I could have made it, but I had other responsibilities. Maybe next time. I am sure I would have had a good experience had I been in attendance as I assume you did.
Fox,
I caught the spelling error as soon as I hit send, but too late.
No, you don’t know me, but FWIW, I first became familiar with your writing via the Baptist Life forums quite some time before the “Baptist blogosphere” emerged c.2004. You are nothing if not consistent.
In hindisght, I should have chosen a different thread for my lame attempt at humor. You’ve managed to stay mostly on track here!
No offense intended, and I assume none taken.
Also, Fox, I’ll check out Singleton’s “half mammals” but must warn you that I may have to chase his condescension with jiggers of Grizzard just for god measure.
Also, Fox, I’ll check out Singleton’s “half mammals” but must warn you that I may have to chase his condescension with jiggers of Grizzard just for good measure.
Maybe, here on Good Friday, a poem for DMiller, MikeR, Stuart, et.al.
“The Younger Brother begins to sharpen his knife.”
In this case you can imagine who I think the younger brothers are.
But the poem speaks for itself, just like William Blake’s did on the Resurrection.
So the Resurrection and Jesus Walking on the Water; two different poems for those who have ears to Hear.
http://www.michaelppowers.com/wisdom/maybe.html
I was thinking Stephen’s writing style sort of favored that of Jack Kerouac.
David Rogers,
In regard to your question in #69. No I was not referring to you or to anyone else in particular. I have always appreciated you willingness to give your opinions in a gracious, non-condemning manner and your response in #65 was adequate. However, that was made only because I asked you to respond.
I guess I am an old school Baptist. I cannot understand why in a Blog called SBC Impact which should be concerned with theological integrity of the SBC, I was the only one to make a big deal about Mike’s comments. If it is true as he as repeated over and over that the largest and most visible entity in the SBC has for years employed missionaries, the majority of whom are not conservative theologically, has supported the teaching of heresy in Taejon and other areas, whose leaders were appointing liberal leaning missionaries and had to be drug kicking and screaming into the second half of the 20th century, and other statements, why were others were not either challenging those statements if they disagreed or demanding accountability if they agreed. Maybe no is reading SBC Impact but the 5 or 6 that make most of the comments. If I believed the statements he made I would not have been willing to serve as a missionary with the FMB/IMB. I would be screaming for those responsible to be held accountable and fired. It says a lot about the status of discussion in the blog world that comments like Mike’s are hardly noticed. His statement about the BSSB would also have been left out there with no comment if I hadn’t questioned it.
While I have been with the IMB, if missionaries are teaching heresy or promoting liberal agenda, we would not need the CR, the trustees or our Richmond staff to take care of it. We would have stopped it on our own. Nothing is more deadly to missions than liberal teaching on Christ, salvation or the authority of scripture. It would be foolish to sacrifice all we have to take the gospel to those who do not know and allow it to be subverted by false teaching. That is why I get sick of trustees and others making charges against us that I know personally to be untrue. I think that was the reason for Jerry Rankin’s quote I gave earlier. What I cannot understand is why those who say they support us and believe in what we are doing sit and say nothing when we are slandered in this way. If that makes me ignorant and vitriolic then so be it.
Ron, I am not in this discussion anymore, as per our discussion.
However, you misrepresented Mike’s comments above.
You said,
“If it is true as he as repeated over and over that the largest and most visible entity in the SBC has for years employed missionaries, the majority of whom are not conservative theologically, has supported the teaching of heresy in Taejon and other areas, whose leaders were appointing liberal leaning missionaries.”
You accused Mike of asserting that “the majority were not conservative theologically…”
Mike said,
“The FMB was probably our best institution during those years. The missionaries were dedicated, even if beginning to drift theologically. The seminary in Taejon definitely had some good people in it, but some in it also allowed such accommodation to culture that many graduates absolutely DID come out believing that they did not have to make a personal commitment to Christ. Now, I lived among those people for several years, and whether or not you want to accept it, it is true.”
He said, I believe, that theologically compromised missionaries did exist (which I know from my own experience) but did not assert that they were a majority.
I looked back, briefly, through the inerrancy comment stream and could find no place where he said that the majority of missionaries were liberal or liberal leaning.
He did say that Rushlikon and Taejon were rife with theological drift.
I do not think your accusation against Mike is fair, nor is it truthful. I cannot find where he said what you said he said.
Mike has been allowed to have his say, as have you. I have allowed comments on all sides. The only person I have consistently censored is Stephen – not because of his viewpoint but because of his reluctance to address the topic at hand.
Is it your expectation that I should censure Mike for disagreeing with you or having a viewpoint different from yours?
As I see it, a lot of our conflicted views in this discussion root in a lack of precision in our use of terms like “liberal” & “conservative” and “majority” & “many.” Also, a lack of precision regarding differences within the FMB/IMB before the CR, and after the CR.
I have broached this title before; but I see now where it may help in the precision call by DAvid Rogers.
This book is as clear as anything I have read on the matter. For me it puts things in proper perspective; some great essays by some Great Baptists
http://helwys.com/bookexcerpts/obrien_2_press_release.html
Keith Parks makes a strong endorsing statement for this work.
Stephen,
I don’t have time to read the book right now. But do you happen to know if the authors of “Stand with Christ” think there ought to be any set doctrinal standard at all as a requirement for missionary service with the IMB? I think we’ve gone here before, but, if not, why not appoint Mormons, or Unitarians?
Also, you may be interested to know, if you didn’t already, that my father, although in favor of using general agreement with the BF&M 2000 as a requirement for new missionary appointees, was opposed to using it retroactively for already appointed missionaries, and asking them to “sign on the dotted line.”
I’m late for lunch; but will be thinking about an appropriate answer.
Short answer is I am aware of nothing in the history of Keith Parks, Dellan Obrien, Carolyn Crumpler and Dan Vestal, to name a short list that would in anyway suggest they were so amorphous in doctrinal conviction to hint their concerns would open the door to SBC appointing Mormons and Unitarians.
As Bruce Prescott excellent essay in Stand With Christ drives home there is a difference between the wordagod as a shibboleth, and honest discussion about the authority of the Word of God.
To fast forward just a little, the discussion on Standards at bl.com that focusses on The Shurden wing of CBF as distinct from the Baptist Manifesto may shed some light; but on the whole is foreign to the question you raise.
More later.
David Miller,
In your post on inerrancy in #103 the last paragraph, Mike Rasberry made the following statement about our missionaries. “That is not to say that there were not conservatives there, but most were moderate to liberal theologically, not just in methods, during the late 1950’s to late 1970’s, I believe” David, If most are moderate to liberal theologically does that not mean the majority? If they are moderate to liberal does that not mean they are not conservative theologically?
David, you accused me of misrepresenting Mike’s comments when I accused Mike of asserting that the majority were not conservative theologically. Did I misrepresent them or not? Either show me exactly how the quote about is not exactly what I was saying or tell me you were mistaken. David, have you ever misrepresented my comments at SBC Impact?
David, you said you could find no place where he said that the majority of missionaries were liberal or liberal leaning. I did not say he said the majority. This is what he said, in #205 of the inerrancy post.
“I simply cannot understand anyone not accepting the liberal leanings of a great many appointees under the old Parks and earlier regime and must assume such people as either : (1) Ignorant, or (2) Willfully deceptive.” He said a “great many” had liberal leanings. I don’t think there is much difference between a great many and saying a majority. In either case it is not true. I gave his exact quote above. How am I misrepresenting him here if I give the exact quote??
David, you said, “I do not think your accusation against Mike is fair, nor is it truthful.” Where was I not truthful? When you accused me of misrepresenting Mike’s comments was that fair or truthful?
David, you said you know theologically compromised missionaries. What does “theologically compromised” mean. Does that mean they were liberal, teaching heresy, or what? Do you know tens, hundreds, thousands? Where are all these missionaries? Let’s put it in perspective. If you know someone teaching heresy or promoting aberrant theology, please let me know their names and the circumstances and I will contact the IMB to have your charges investigated. If what you say is true, they will be removed. That has always been true at the FBM/IMB. We take theology serious. We are willing to investigate legitimate problems but we don’t make claims unless we can prove them.
David, I didn’t ask you to censure Mike. That is up to you. If you think his accusations against the BSSB and the IMB are accurate, go ahead and allow them. You set the standards for SBC Impact.
David Rogers you are correct about definitions. As a mathematician, it drives me crazy to discuss these issues with some pastors. Liberal and conservative have been given so many definitions that the terms are almost meaningless. Mathematicians have to have precise definitions that everybody agrees to and that cannot be changed. In the SBC everyone makes up their own definitions to fit their accusations.
I would also like to comment on the word “leaning” as used by Mike and others. What does that mean? Either they are liberal or not? Have the courage to say it. People use the word leaning when they know they aren’t liberal but want to accuse them of it so bad they just say liberal leaning. Leaning is wimpy word used by those desperate to use labels.
As far as differences within the FMB/IMB before the CR and after the CR it makes no difference if you are discussing theology. We are no more theologically conservative or orthodox now than we were when I was appointed in 1978. The CR had no impact on that.
No, Ron, I did not see that comment and it seems in that comment that he is saying that the majority of missionaries were moderate or liberal. So, on that your comment was accurate. His later comments were more on the “some of them” instead of “most of them.” I looked back at his comments but did not find that one. Perhaps Mike could clarify whether he believes that most were moderate or liberal or whether he meant (as he said in the comment I read) that there was a drift.
So, your statement was correct, at least as to that one comment. My comments were observational, not accusational, but if you took offense at them, at apologize.
I will not give details about missionaries I knew, but yes, I know from personal experience that the FMB in the 80′s was not liberal-free. I was a pastor in Virginia during that time. That is all I will say.
So Dave Miller; what exactly is a liberal.
Was Mike Huckabee a Liberal in late 80′s cause he bucked the Ronnie Floyd, Joe Atchison satellite of Pressler’s machine in the state.
How about Wade Burleson; is he a liberal cause he spoke at the Baptist Covenant in Oklahoma last fall?
And or David Rogers; is he a liberal cause he endorses ordination of women for the diaconate.
How about Richard Land, was he a liberal when he called Curtis Caine on the carpet for calling ML King Jr. a Communist; when Caine was early trustee of Land’s ERLC.
Is Richard Jackson a Liberal?
How about Jim Lacy, treasurer in early days of Baptist Committed of Texas; Great friend and advocate of George Bush 43 from their shared experience in Midland Texas.
Or an IMB missionary who is proud of their son for his ecumenical work in the Mideast more in the vein of Martin Accad than the Caner Brothers.
Was STewart Newman a Liberal in 1956 for differing with WA Criawell.
Or Truett Cathy, head of Chic Fil A for standing by Kirby Godsey as a Trustee of Mercer when Godsey was under fire?
So who is a liberal and what gives you and Mike Rasberry the credentials to make public declarations.
How about Christianity Today; is It’s Easter issue Liberal? Is it a Liberal Publication
And or the Lausanne Covenant. Billy Graham went one way on the issue of Inerrancy for that document and Francis Schaeffer another. Who was the Liberal?
Is Charles Marsh a Liberal; what about Charles Pickering? What would be wrong with having DAvid Rogers contact Pickering to see if his mind has changed at all since Pickering was on the Peace Committee with Adrian Rogers and Jim Henry.
Is Jim Henry a Liberal?
What about the WMU’s leadership; and if WMU is Liberal, how can Rankin for one justify continuing to raise money from Liberal organizations.
What is the parable about the one who was justified, the man on the side of the road. Who was more likely to be that fellow; Jesse Helms or Oscar Romero??
For the record, who said anything about ordination?
Stephen,
In case you are confused by my last comment, and you didn’t catch it back then, here is the link to my views on ordination:
http://www.sbcimpact.net/2008/08/25/ministerial-ordination/
This vitriol discussion has conflated several recent streams of thought on discussion on this board,most notable the error of inerrancy.
To that end Miller and WEst were having an exchange on liberal drift of missionaries.
So where is the drift and how have the definitions changed since 1979 in the CR seems to me to be part of the discussion.
Your exercise on ordination, to me at least, seems to be a progression from CR thought from early days of the CR in 79.
So the question is by Miller’s allusions, are you part of the liberal drift?
And if not you, what about Anne Graham Lotz?
Miller and Rasberry take some wide shots at “liberals” and the scattershooting could hit a lot of targets and I am just wondering if you and Mike Huckabee may be in the line of fire if you ask them the right questions; and or the folks I listed about three comments back
Stephen,
Here is my personal understanding of the concept of liberalism, at least as it has to do with theology/doctrine:
I believe that God (Yahweh), as Sovereign Lord of the universe, has revealed His truth and His will to us by means of Scripture, more specifically, the 66 books of the biblical canon traditionally recognized by Christian Protestants. Any view that places human reason as a criterion on a par with or above divine revelation as a means of determining truth (in the areas of truth dealt with in divine revelation), or that calls into question the truthfulness of divine revelation, is, in essence, liberalism. The use of human reason as an aid to determine what Scripture actually teaches, and how to most accurately and effectively apply it in our lives, is not, in and of itself, liberalism.
Also, there are many who, in their approach and attitude to Scripture and divine revelation, are totally submissive to the sovereignty of God, as communicated therein. Such persons, although they may not agree with my particular interpretation and/or application of a particular passage of Scripture, are not technically “liberals.” They may well be mistaken in their interpretation. Their error in interpretation may even lead them to be heretical. But, they are not necessarily “liberals.”
David Rogers:
Would you consider the following statement “liberal”?
“The privilege of personal interpretation of the Bible is hard work. Some questions must be asked and answered. What did this biblical statement mean in it original setting? When was it written? Under what circumstances? What thought patterns dominated the world of the writer? To understand the Bible, one should know something about the history of the Bible. the history within the Bible and good principles for understanding the Bible today. Some Baptists want the privilege of personal interpretation of the Bible, but they do not want to go to the trouble of being good interpreters.
We must distinguish between the noble privilege of interpretting the Bible for ourselves and the responsibility of working hard at determining what its authors intended it to mean.”
Stephen.
No. In and of itself, I would not consider that statement to be liberal.
Thank you David. I could point out more inaccuracies with Mike Rasberry’s comments but I am tired of this and I don’t think there is much concern here whether they are accurate or not.
The problem, Ron, is that we mostly share opinions here. I have mine, you have yours. We have different experiences and backgrounds, so our perspectives may differ.
My point is that just because Mike Rasberry sees things differently than you do does not make him inaccurate, unless we assume that your opinions are incontrovertible and objective truth.
When we accurate present scripture, we represent truth. But when we share our recollections and opinions, we share perspectives – and they often differ.
Stephen,
While many, or perhaps most, are not liberal, they are moderates. Moderates in Southern Baptist Life are those who usually are theological conservatives, but DO NOT want to limit the influence of liberals in the denomination. Theirs is a life of accommodation for those who are liberal by not actually standing against them.
That has been the situation with Southern Baptist for at least the last forty years. Jimmy Allen was not liberal, but he didn’t think we ought to require our professors to agree to a theological standard.
Daniel Vestal started out as a conservative, but was seduced by the moderate/liberal wing and now supports liberal causes through the CBF. Cathy is the same thing. How he could support Kirby Godsey is beyond me.
Billy Graham started out with a three fold purpose, Preach against: Liberalism, communism, Catholicism. He wound up either accommodating or embracing all three.
Mike, that matches my experience as well (if I understand you correctly). There were a lot of conservatives (theologically and politically).
There were a small number of liberals.
There were many “moderates” (people whose theology was conservative but either did not see the threat of liberalism or did not think it important enough to fight over).
The disagreement I had with moderates was not over theology, but over whether the SBC had a theological problem that needed to be dealt with.
Mike and Miller:
I think I will let those last two responses gestate a little and may come back to them after Easter.
Would be sweet if either of you had any conversational knowledge with the BX 6400′s but I guess that is a little too much to ask from spokesmen for the “Conservative Resurgence.”
Stephen, if you have something to say to me or about the discussion, I have invited you 100 times to say it. However, I do not have time to chase every link you post, even if every once in a while you post one that may actually be relevant to the discussion. If you have something to say, say it. But if you want to communicate something to me, trust me when I say that posting link after link is not the way to do it.
I do have something to say. I’m just trying to give Jesus a little time to speak to me here on EAster Weekend; and I didn’t want to miss Our President taking Clark Kellogg at Halftime in POTUS.
As I said, I may pick it up next week.
I do want to stay civil as your guest here on this board. I don’t want this to devolve into a Taxi Driver like exchange of You talkin to me?
I do think you and MikeR may have to back off a little of your demarcations cause you are pretty close it seems to me of calling DAvid Rogers an accommodationist but you don’t quite have the guts to admit the logical conclusions of your slippery slope here.
I do wish You and Mike R would find a copy of Uneasy in Babylon and see what Carey Newman and DAvid Gushee said in 94. Just look up their names in the index and you can find it in about 7 minutes or less.
David,
I am not talking about differences of opinion. I am taking about factual inaccuracies. But let’s first talk about accurate opinions. Mike stated the majority of our missionaries were not theologically conservative. I think David Rogers and others who have actually served and worked with our missionaries have contradicted his opinion and believe it is inaccurate. In several instances Mike has impugned the integrity, veracity and character of our missionaries. That may be his opinion and perspective but that does not make it correct nor should it be allowed to be stated on SBC Impact without comment.
If you accept Mike’s accusation that the majority of our missionaries are not theologically conservative, then I could just as easily state the majority of the leaders of the CR are not theologically conservative. As a group, our missionaries are just as theologically conservative as the leaders of the CR. You said you know “theologically compromised” missionaries. I know theologically compromised CR leaders.
Perspectives can be inaccurate. Should we just allow any perspective no matter how ridiculous to be stated and never challenged? Opinions can also be inaccurate. We have to judge the reliability of the presenter.
Now let’s talk about the factual inaccuracies I was referring to. I will put one case in the next post so we can look at it by itself.
Mike Rasberry stated that the Leaders of the BSSB were arrested in the parking lot of the BSSB for public drunkenness. That statement failed the common sense test on many levels. It invokes an image of Grady Cothen or Loyd Elder leading a bunch of employees in a drunken party in the parking lot. If it had happened, it would have been a major story not only in Baptist press but in the national press. Mike came back and admitted the word “leaders” was factually wrong. He said it was one person. But he did not tell us when this took place. The following is his explanation of this factually inaccuracy.
————————————————–
“You are correct when you say that “one person was detained” from the parking lot, and perhaps my statement was a bit strong. My point was to bring out the permissive attitude of those in leadership at the Board at that time. The statement I made should have been rewritten thusly, “The coverup of activities by some those employed by the BSSB came to a head when one such employee was arrested for public drunkenness on the parking lot of the BSSB, causing great consternation among SBC churches, and furthering the sense of distrust between denominational employees pastors of local churches.” I can also say that the media report of the account showed none of what you say, and that never received widespread dissemination. But the trust level was such that I’m doubtful any explanations would have been accepted as fact.”
—————————————————
Notice he says the arrest for public drunkenness charge was true and uses that to claim the leaders were involved in a coverup, had a permissive attitude, and this had caused great consternation among SBC churches.
I only know of one instance involving something happening in the parking lot of the BSSB. As I said once before, in 1976 an employee was arrested in the parking lot of the BSSB because the leadership of the BSSB felt he was having psychiatric problems and was a danger to himself and others and had the police there to arrest him. This was widely reported in Baptist Press at the time.
I thought this might be the instance Mike was referring to because he mentioned Bill Powell. Powell wrote about this occurrence and embellished it in much the same way he did when he accused Duke McCall of being a drunk. That charge was so outrageous even CR leaders contacted McCall and apologized for it.
I admit that with the hundreds of employees that worked at the board during those years I cannot say that no employee was ever arrested for drunkenness. Even if it happened it does not necessarily mean the leadership had a permissive attitude. I am trying to understand how it happened. Did he have some beers for breakfast and show up at the BSSB drunk or did he have some beers at work and walk out drunk. How did the police happen to be at the parking lot?
Mike Rasberry, let me ask you one question. Has your church ever had a member or staff member arrested for drunkenness or some other immoral activity? If so, would it be fair to accuse you of a permissive attitude. The Bible says, Judge not lest ye be judged. You need to read Matthew 7:1-3 and consider whether or not it applies to you.
If the instance of drunkennessyou are talking about is different from the one I mentioned, tell us when it happened and what the details were. I know you would not make such a damaging accusation against the BSSB without having all the facts. I would like to confirm the facts about drunkenness and permissive attitudes you have described. It is a serious charge. I repeat. Mike Rasberry you have attacked the integrity and honesty of the leaders of the BSSB. Tell us when this public drunkenness took place and how it tells us the leaders were being permissive.
Framing Ron WEst and Mike Rasberry’s exchange in a larger context; here is the world that propelled the CR as incarnated in Judge Pressler, Criswell, Ed McAteer and Patterson I am convinced:
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/31/books/l-sidney-blumenthal-on-robert-caro-514091.html?pagewanted=all
Ron,
It doesn’t matter to you and Stephen what anyone says who isn’t anti-CR. I will say this one final statement on the matter. The 60′s & 70′s were rife with problems. Most of us in the CR attributed them to the permissive nature of leadership brought on by liberal leaning theology.
You can rant and rave and try to rewrite history all you want, but the CR was used by God to save the institution of the SBC and bring her back to her roots.
It was during those years that rank and file laity became involved in the political structure of the SBC, and it was the laity who drove the pastors to action because they didn’t like the literature, the leadership, or the perception of premissiveness. All across the country groups of laymen became involved. They asked pastors why they should support institutions which seemed so far askew. Pastors preached patience and promised that with God’s help things would change for the better.
I do believe the attitude at the BSSB contributed to the coverup of lifestyles which would not be ordinarily accepted. I’d like to see the text of an apology by CR leadership about Bill Powell. I’m not saying it didn’t happen, but I do doubt it.
Yes, there was probably some over zealousness.
You’ve offered nothing except your opinion, and the opinion of others to refute the liberal leanings of a large number of our missionaries and denominational leaders during those decades. Yet, you seem to think your opinions and those of people who think like you should carry more weight.
IF THERE HAD BEEN NO PROBLEM, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO CR.
Mike:
You said to Ron W.–”You can rant and rave and try to rewrite history all you want, but the CR was used by God to save the institution of the SBC and bring her back to her roots.
That is your opinion.
Others of us have our opinion.
Funny how things like that work isn’t it.
You think your opinion is the correct one. It may be or it may not be, but it is an opinion.
Who were all these LIBERALS that you and others that support the CR love to point to? How many liberals were there–1,2,3, 10,000. Who are these faceless people?
You also said to Ron shouting at him in all caps–”IF THERE HAD BEEN NO PROBLEM, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO CR.”
My response to you is:
ARE THERE NOT PROBLEMS IN THE SBC RIGHT NOW–DO WE NEED TO REVERSE THE CR BECAUSE WE STILL HAVE PROBLEMS?
Tom,
I have no problem with divergent opinions on the matter. I disagree with Stephen and Ron, and perhaps you that the CR was a necessary adjustment.
The “all caps” was NOT yelling. It was because that is the easiest way to emphasize something. I wanted to get the point across that the vast majority of Southern Baptists were in favor of the CR.
Now whether or not it needs to be reversed. I can only chuckle. If you really believe the vast majority of Southern Baptist want to return to the liberal-leaning past, go for it. Just realize what you’re doing when you do, and don’t be surprised when you lose.
Do Southern Baptists need corrections, of course. We are a loosely held together group of people who have different ministries, different, gifts, and different natural tendencies. We are not infallible. However, we needed the CR, or we would have disintegrated.
Just look at where the CBF is going. They are becoming a coalition of liberal leaning to liberal churches, both theologically and culturally. That is fine. I’m just glad they are not leading the SBC.
Grady Cothen stopped by my house in Alabama in the early 90′s. He spent about an hour with me in conversation in preparation for his book to be linked below.
There are opinions and then there opinions. I think I will take Cothen and the consensus of the BX 6400′s over those of Mike Raspberry and DMiller.
I do hope that a Marine, a man of honor and I do not say that sarcastically, like Mike Raspberry; a man with obviously so much of his gut all in on this matter, would do justice to this matter and read at least Ammerman and DAvid Morgan, and Hankins. All volumes should not be far away from Raspberry; Mississippi College I’m sure has them all.
Cothen page at Smyth and Helwys:
http://www.helwys.com/books/cothen2.html
Mike:
I asked you:”Who were all these LIBERALS that you and others that support the CR love to point to? How many liberals were there–1,2,3, 10,000. Who are these faceless people?”
I really hoped you wonder answer this question, so I ask you again.
You said:”They are becoming a coalition of liberal leaning to liberal churches, both theologically and culturally.”
I do not understand what you mean by the word liberal. What does it mean for you? My thanks in advance.
Tom, I’m shocked you are just now weighing in after a lengthy discussion of inerrancy on my last post, which you missed. Really, this comment stream is kind of a continuation of that one and is ignoring my whole point about vitriol and bitterness.
If you wanted to interrogate people, you might should have joined the discussion back then.
But nevertheless, I will try to give a couple of brief answers to this question.
As I have said repeatedly, there was a significant problem with liberalism focused primarily in 3 of our seminaries (MWBTS, SBTS, SEBTS) and Baptist-oriented colleges and universities.
Liberal is used in SBC circles differently than in other circles. Primarily, we use the term to describe those who do not hold to the absolute truthfulness of God’s word, but who believe that the Bible contains errors.
In the SBC, that is how the term has come to be used.
How many were there? One is too many on the payroll of the SBC, but I would put the number in the 100′s, though I never took a count. The problem is that they were in colleges and seminaries training (or compromising the training) of our next generation of church leaders.
So, while I may not state it quite as strongly as Mike, I will forever be glad that MWBTS, SEBTS and SBTS now honor God’s Word instead of undermining it.
DM:
Be nice now David Miller because believe it or not I’m trying to be nice to you CR guys these days.
Actually, I was shocked you didn’t join in on the last one. If you had, we might have made 600 comments.
If my previous comment was deemed in any way as not “being nice” then either I wrote something I didn’t intend or you read something I didn’t write.
I actually was trying to explain why your question might not have been answered. I’ve tried to kill this whole thing about 12 times, but it just keeps going and going and going.
Tom,
Since you brought it up, you may (or may not) have noticed I gave my take on the term “liberalism” in comment #100. I’m curious if you would agree with that definition. Why or why not? I am also curious if others, such as Mike R., and Dave M., would agree. I don’t claim that my definition is the cure-all answer. Just looking for some common ground upon which to base our discussions.
I guess, as this comment stream (hopefully) dies out, I am left wondering if ANYONE actually read the original post?
Shockingly, David (and this may really surprise you) I agree with your comment #100 and the way you defined liberalism.
You went to the root (elevating human reason) and I went to effects (believing the Bible has errors). But I think we are saying the same thing.
David and Dave,
I have no problem with your definitions from a philosophical position. In practical terms those philosophical positions work themselves out in ways which are detrimental to establishing scripture as the final authority because liberalism is incremental in its appropriation of its position.
Ex. A professor becomes enamored with a particular theory espoused by a liberal theologian. That leads him to study others who believe the same theory, before long the theory is inculcated in his psyche. [The old "throw enough mud on the wall and some of it is bound to stick" idea.] He then begins to introduce impressionable young preachers, whose youth naturally attracts them to the more radical on the edge types. These young men become professors espousing a theological position clearly in opposition to the preponderance of Bible Believing Church Members.
That we had liberals is not what brought about the CR. The CR was brought on by “moderates” who refused to deal with the very few liberals within our midsts. The moderates, overwhelmingly theological conservatives, felt that we should wait and perhaps move them out through attrition. However, conservatives felt that we had a theological responsibility to not have people representing Southern Baptists who held liberal views. We never advocated anything other than they not be employed by SBC entities.
In order to affect that change in our institutions, we were required to gain control of the political apparatus. We did that. The rest is history.
When I say, “liberal leaning” I’m not referring to the classical theological liberalism of our British Baptist Friends. Most Southern Baptists believed in the miracles, the resurrection, the one way through Jesus Christ. However their sympathetic support of the entrenched liberals meant they, too, must be in a position where they could not appoint,or employ liberals.
Mike:
I will ask you now a third time–”I asked you:”Who were all these LIBERALS that you and others that support the CR love to point to? How many liberals were there–1,2,3, 10,000. Who are these faceless people?”
Could they just be a figment of CR supporters imaginations?
I’m confident you guys will never grasp what you did to the SBC in the guise of getting rid of a handful of liberals.
No, Tom, they were not a figment of my imagination. I knew them. I could name them, but I won’t.
My college professors whom I have talked about who denied every major doctrine of scripture including the sacrificial atonement of Christ and told us that there are many paths to God.
The Southern Seminary professor who was our “Spiritual Emphasis” week speak and told us that the death of Jesus was a tragic mistake – that Jesus did not come for the purpose of dying, but it just happened through a series of mistakes that were made.
I saw them all during college. They were the products of Southern and Southeastern and one of them went on to teach at Midwestern.
I saw the spiritual damage they did to friends of mine and I was determined that they would not destroy my denomination. I worked in the Conservative Resurgence because I was committed to seeing that the men who taught at my college and their ilk in colleges and seminaries would not destroy the Southern Baptist Convention.
Tom,
I realized a long time ago that people like you don’t want to know the truth. I say what I think, and know; but I don’t try to convince you. I often think of the words of Jesus to the church at Pergamos which had accommodated those who believed error.
We’re fully convinced what we did. We fought the good fight and those mis-guided souls who stood with hands wringing over the supposed harm were akin to the British Loyalists who refused to see the necessity of making the break with England.
Those in charge before the CR were unwilling to cleanse the denomination of those who taught heresy in our seminaries and who sat on our boards, and who accommodated yea, even promoted error.
The Broadman Bible Commentary was to be the center piece of SBC scholarship. Rather volume one was a travesty which opened the eyes to the liberal leaning of the BSSB which was charged with the editing and production of it.
The support given the BSSB by the agency heads and their support for the heretical teachers in the Seminaries was proof enough that a return to Biblical truth was necessary.
Tom,
How about about someone like Professor John Durham. You see, in the Summer 1984 copy of The Review and Expositor (Vol. LXXXI, No. 3) published by the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville there was an article written by John I. Durham who was, at that time, Professor of Hebrew and Old Testament at the Southeastern Theological Seminary in Wake Forest, North Carolina titled “The King as ‘Messiah’ in the Psalms.”.
In the article, the oh so well educated Dr. Durham said “Few biblical concepts have fallen prey to this tendency [the tendency of ‘discrediting of an ancient idea by imputing to it a meaning it did not have in its own plane of existence any more frequently than has the Old Testament concept of messiah, particularly in its occurrences in the Psalms…To deal with the most frequent misunderstanding first, the one connected with the ‘width’ of the concept of messiah in the Psalms, we must first note that messiah in the Psalms refers always and only to the ruling king, the ‘Davidic’ king who was Yahweh’s appointed and so anointed messiah representative. These references are not intended as predictions of Jesus who is the Christ (Cristos, which also means anointed), though they have very often been taken as such, beginning as early as the New Testament period.” In other words, Mr. Durham says that when the New Testament writers say that the Psalms are referring to Jesus they are WRONG.
Further, he says that any such intepretations are based on “ignorance, prejudice, eisegesis, undisciplined piety, and over-used imagination, and so are wrong and unjustifiable reasons.” In other words, if you believe that the Psalms are talking about Jesus when they mention the Messiah, you’re stupid.
Would someone who wrote garbage like that be a liberal in your mind? I’m betting the answer to that is “No”.
Oh, and I’ll say it once more, Tom. Anyone who got hurt, lost a job, saw their family get hurt, whatever, in the CR got WAY better than they deserved. This includes the “innocents”.
Dave has educated me on other comment threads that there were conservatives who believed the Bible but were treated like they didn’t because they didn’t stand against the liberals or disagreed with the tactics used in the CR. In my book, those folks must not have believed the Bible too strongly because they were not willing to support the CR. Therefore, even if they were not liberal, they were willing to enable liberals which made them as much of a problem as the liberals to my way of thinking.
I am proud that there were people who had to move, find new jobs, or whatever due to the CR. If you don’t want to believe correctly then you should begone.
Here is part of the witness, the pilgrimage of Adrian Roger’s contemporary at NOBTS, Robert Marsh.
From Doug Weaver’s History of 2nd Ponce De Leon in Atlanta.
The SBC conflict reached a climactic point in 1985. As the key convention approached, Marsh wrote that Baptists were defined by cooperative action rather than signed creeds. The annual meeting in Dallas was attended by 45,000 messengers–the largest ever–and the “moderates” condemned the convention president, Charles Stanley of First Baptist Church, Atlanta, for grossly manipulative parliamentary leadership. Marsh, despite the fact that many of his own parishioners had exited First Baptist Church in protest of Charles Stanley’s authoritarian leadership in the 1970s, (18) still maintained his cautious approach. Attempting to be a reconciler, Marsh never publicly criticized Stanley and chose to continue expressions of optimism. To the deacons, he emphasized the convention’s adoption of a record budget and the annual reports from the Home and Foreign Mission Boards. In the Church News, Marsh acknowledged that the convention was struggling, but asserted that “our commitments and our objectives will keep us going strong and forward.” He encouraged the congregation to focus on building bridges and when that was done, “God will spare us.” (19) For Marsh, a passionate focus on increased mission giving, despite the conflict swirling around the convention, was the key to unity. Consequently, in 1986, the church increased its Cooperative Program gifts to $450,000, which was 17 percent of the church’s budget and a 42.8 percent increase in funds in two years. (20)
During the second half of the eighties, Marsh clearly articulated views that would resonate with the moderate faction of the convention. He never espoused biblical inerrancy; he argued that honest theological disagreement was permissible within the convention; and he criticized creedalism. After the 1986 convention, he declared that while Southern Baptists had always been theologically conservative, “Jesus did not establish any theological checklist.” (21) Marsh also warned against the SBC becoming a pawn of any secular political party, although he never explicitly acknowledged the moderate charge that aligned the new SBC leaders with the political Religious Right. In 1987, Marsh reiterated familiar themes: he avoided politicizing his church in order to focus on missions and he desired to be a reconciler in the denominational conflict. (22)
In the early years of “the controversy,” some fundamentalists had been harshly critical of the Cooperative Program because their money was supporting “liberalism.” In similar fashion, as moderates continued to lose elections, some began to question the logic of giving money to an agenda they opposed and from which they felt increasingly disenfranchised. But many Baptists, even if they had concerns with fundamentalist methods and victories, usually had decades of deeply rooted tradition and undying loyalty to the Baptist stewardship programs that produced, in their minds, the most effective missionary enterprise in Christian history. This sense of loyalty was clearly expressed in a deacons’ meeting in June 1988 after yet another moderate convention loss. In a subsequent Church News column, Jim Neyland, minister of church administration, cited the words of fellow church member James Griffith, the GBC executive director, to the deacons: “The bottom line is that if the moderates pull out or reduce their giving to the Cooperative Program, the missionaries will be the ones to suffer.” Neyland concurred and noted with strong approbation Griffith’s final word to the deacons: “I don’t let nobody blow smoke on my blue skies.” (23)
“Conservatives” proclaimed victory after the 1990 convention in New Orleans. They had achieved total control of all the SBC’s agencies and were employing only like-minded supporters. Moderates were resigned to defeat and disillusioned about the future. After the convention, Robert Marsh made his most definitive statement about the SBC to the deacons in an address that he entitled “The Tragic Controversy in the Southern Baptist Convention.” Marsh expressed some sympathy for the concerns of conservatives. A few professors, he thought, had refused to address “conservative-evangelical” viewpoints. On the other hand, no “conservative resurgence” was necessary since isolated problems could and would have been addressed.
Marsh argued that the basic problem was not fundamentalism versus liberalism, or conservative versus moderate. The issue was “a narrow-minded provincialism–a bucolic and narrow thinking–a mean spirit refusing to allow open discussion in search for truth.” He agreed with the moderate stance that “the conservative agenda has a “tragic litmus test”: “Who believes the Word of God the way I believe the Word of God?” And that question is answered by this observation: if you do not hold to this conservative agenda, you are not a Bible believer.” (24) Inerrancy was not the issue, Marsh added, but whether someone had to believe in inerrancy to be a Baptist.
Marsh’s address to the deacons was intensely personal. He lamented the toll the conflict had inflicted on his family, especially upon his brother-in-law, Fisher Humphreys, who had been criticized while teaching at New Orleans Seminary. (25) Marsh also noted that his son, Charles, would most likely never have the opportunity to teach in a Southern Baptist school because he received his theological education at schools that would not affirm the SBC’s conservative direction. (26)
Moderate=liberal
Moderate christians like Stephen Foz, Gene Scarborough, Don Quixote and his band of little trained minions in Enid are proof that the CR was not only needed but that it didn’t go NEARLY far enough.
Joe, while I agree with you that the CR was necessary, I do not join you in your opinion that they “got what they deserved.”
I do not understand why people who love the Word of God would want to allow those who undermine the Bible to continue training our next generation of pastors, but I wish CR leaders had worked a little harder to build bridges and widen the tent a little.
An “us against them” “if you aren’t for us you are against us” mentality had arisen.
I agree that the so-called moderates were unwise in denying the problem in the seminaries and colleges, and in acting to protect those who taught contrary to the BF&M. But I wish we could have found a way to convince more people.
It is clear that there are many out there who never got over the hurt they experienced (real or not) in the CR. I wish that could have been different (without changing the beneficial results of the CR).
Dave,
Your opinion and position are more right than mine as far as your compassion for those who got hurt. I certainly concede that. I would rather someone like you have been in charge than someone like me.
Joe:
While everybody is groping toward their raw assessments here, you don’t have to worry about your kind; your sentiment represented in the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention.
Here is a short list of folks elevated to high position in the SBC in the halcyon days of the Takeover, fundamentalists who shared your sentiments:
Paul Pressler
Paige Patterson
Joe Atchison
Ronnie Floyd–his bitter denouncement of Bill Clinton from the Podium of the Houston 93 SBC; only a year after accepting Clinton’s hand when Clinton walked the aisle for Rededication at a Revival in Springdale
Sam Currin; a Jesse Helms operative placed on the Board of the BJC
Albert Lee Smith: Shaped by the John Birch Society
Steve Pounds of West Virginia
Joe Knox, another Helms operative
Curtis Caine of Mississippi placed on the CLC
The IMB trustee women on video in the WMU Inquistion of Delanna Obrien and staff circa 93
Bill Powell and all the folks associated with the Southern Baptist Advocate
Jim DeLoach; placed on the SEBTS trustee board.
So Joe, you were well represented in the Takeover. Own it; embrace it and be proud; tell your grandchildren and all you come into contact with of the folks you replaced the likes of Dilday,Roy Honeycutt, Grady Cothen, the legacy of Stewart Newman, Parks, Obrien, Robert Marsh, JimLacy,John Baugh,the 85 plus missionaries who refused to sign BFM 2000; Jimmy Allen and Fisher Humphreys with.
Everytime you sing There’s a Sweet Sweet Spirit in This Place; own your heritage; lest you lose your olfactory capabilities and become incapable of smelling skunks like The Righteous WA Criswell exhorted you to do in San Antonio in 1988.
I guess I like how the Americans behaved after WWII. We won the war, then we did all we could to befriend those we defeated.
I agree with Mike that we had to “win the war” – and stop the spread of false doctrine which would undermine our denomination.
It seems to me, though, that some among the SBC Conservatives then let bitterness and distrust take over. If you were against us in the war, you are still our enemy.
I wish we had made it clear that those who hold to the teachings of the BF&M are welcome in the SBC, even if they did not support the CR.
On the other hand, I have no desire to revisit the CR or to undo its effects. It seems to me that there are bloggers who would do just that.
Insults do not help. That is directed to both Stephen and Joe. I would hope you would both consider talking to one another rather than insulting one another and the people of both sides of the CR. if you might read the original blog, the whole point is that I think God would rather us discuss issues than hurt insults.
SBC Impact Contributors,
Sorry I have not been able to get back and respond to Mike Rasberry’s reply to my two questions. For some reason I have been blocked from getting on SBC Impact from my home computer so I am at the local library.
First I don’t mean to pick on Mike. His responses are no different from what has become common place in the SBC today where vitriol has become the standard response instead of carrying on a discussion of the facts. There are many who respond similar to Mike.
I asked Mike two questions. First had he ever had a staff member or church member arrested and would that mean he had a permissive attitude as he has accused the BSSB leaders of having. Second I asked him to tell us when the BSSB empoyeed was arrested for drunkenness and supply some details or I would assume it was the instance I referred to.
He answered neither question but instead went off on a tangent about liberalism in the SBC. That had nothing to do with my questions. I am just as opposed to liberalism as he is but I feel we must be truthful when we fight it are we are no better than they are.
I suspect Mike has had a staff member arrested and was not willing to be judged by the same standard he was judging the BSSB leaders.
Mike’s original statement was that leaders of the BSSB had been arrested in the parking lot for public drunkenness. He admitted that the word leaders was inaccurate and it was neither a leader or was it plural. Since he could not give any details I am going to assume there was no public drunkenness invoved and it was the circumstances I said. This would also disprove his statement that it was a coverup by the leaders and an example of a permissive attitude. It was the president, Grady Cothen, who called the police so how was he being permissive.
Nothing of Mike’s statement was true and it would have been accepted and passed on by SBC Impact if I had not questioned it. As inaccurate as his statements about the BSSB are his staements about our missionaries are even more untrue.
I am beginning to think that there is no statement about our missionaries that is so rediculous, or vitriolic or condemning that would cause any SBC Impact contributor to question it, moderate it or challenge it. In fact in Mike’s case it seems like those statements would be encouraged, defended and protected. Mike is given all kinds of warm fuzzies, compimented and supported. However, if I question him and try to defend the SBC or our missionaries, I am accused of misrepresenting him, being untruthful, being vitriolic, slanderous, angry and bitter. Could it be that truth is in crisis here.
Ron, be assured that no one here is “blocking” you. One of our contributors has had the same problem. I imagine some wish my computer would block me as well.
I wish we had made it clear that those who hold to the teachings of the BF&M are welcome in the SBC, even if they did not support the CR.
I say this as sincerely as I can. I wish I felt this way. That’s at least one reason my family and I are no longer in an SBC church. Even though the Christians won the CR, there were/are still moderates in the SBC. We go to a church now that moderate christians would never go to or cooperate with.
DMiller:
Short note. The film White Ribbon about Germany before the First World War is winning international awards. An interesting inflection on your thought. It is very thought provoking, with an element of Calvinism on the table as part of the examination about the film.
Will be interesting to see if the current leadership of the SBC can speak with any virtue about the nature of some aspects of the Tea Party movement in Orlando this summer.
That is one reason I have had repeated references to the Kilgore and Posner piece at religion dispatches and Carl Kell on the Rhetoric of the Leadership of the CR at the height of controversy.
Other than a few conversations here and there I am not aware of anything like a Marshall Plan by the CR, a virtuous hand to those exiled by the CR; though I have had a few moments of grace here on this board in exchanges with David Rogers.
Joe B:
You said:”I say this as sincerely as I can. I wish I felt this way. That’s at least one reason my family and I are no longer in an SBC church. Even though the Christians won the CR, there were/are still moderates in the SBC. We go to a church now that moderate christians would never go to or cooperate with.”
How would you suggest the SBC get rid of all the moderates so you can have a home in the SBC?
Ron,
Yes. I have had a staff member arrested, and we took the necessary steps to make sure it didn’t happen again. I also offered to resign. I stayed another two years, worked through some very difficult issues, and effectively merged the church with another and changed the name and stepped down, even though I was asked to remain as Co-Pastor.
Oh, the irony of it all.
It seems that when it comes to the CR, we just cannot walk away from the vitriol, can we?
For anything I might have said or done that contributed to the problem, I apologize. But I think the best thing for the kingdom and glory of God is to shut down the comment stream here. I think we’ve said all we could say about the subject, haven’t we?
There is an excellent discussion on professionalism that Chris posted a couple of days ago. The inerrancy comment stream stays open if you simply have to post something, but I hope we will all examine our hearts and guard our words before we decide to carry this on.
No accusations against anyone in particular, but I am going to attempt to shut things down here. I think I have it figured out.