A Bridge Too Far?: Towards Bridging the Gap Between Those Who Use Bridges and Those Who Do Not
Posted by Rastis in Baptist Life, Bible & Theology, Church & Missions
Not long after I received word that we were approved and would be heading to the Middle East, I was eating lunch with a bunch of students and professors at my favorite Vietnamese restaurant when someone popped the question: what do you think of the Camel? This professor and I chatted about what we liked and didn’t like about it. When I was securing partner churches prior to going to field orientation, one of the pastors I met with asked the same question. I gave my typical response but this time I sensed some tension. His reply was “well, we [his church]don’t call God Allah because we don’t worship the same God.” It was then that I realized that there was much confusion surrounding the Camel. In all fairness to the pastor, David Hesselgrave makes a similar statement in his Paradigms in Conflict. After the mixed response from that pastor, I started searching. I read a LOT of reviews. Some were so conflicting with what I had read in the Camel, I assumed that there must be more than one version of the Camel and I had merely read the tame one. Unfortunately, that was not the case. I spent the next several months pouring over books, reading journal articles, listening to sermons and lectures, haunting blogs, countless hours chatting around the “fireside”, and interviewing quite a few field personnel. I was asking the same questions every time [What do you think of the Camel? Does it work? Is it right? Can we call God Allah? Is quranic bridging biblically permissible? Etc.]. This post will contain the synthesis of those questions.
I in no way claim to be an expert on Islam or the Camel. By nature, I am very analytical and am approaching all of the interviews and reading from that standpoint. I see many common misunderstandings in most of the discussions I have read. Let me say at the outset that I do not have an ax to grind here. I neither use the Camel nor do I hate it. Additionally, I am not after any one individually or personally. You can pretty much take any misconception I address here and find more than one source who argues for it.[If you take anything personally, I am going to point you right back here.]
I hope that the distinctions made in this post will help people better define their terms, questions, and accusations when talking about this topic. The problem is that there is a growing conversation wherein some many controversial issues are being lumped together and either accepted or rejected uncritically. If we continue on this trajectory, I can see some missionary serving in western Europe getting “court marshaled” because he used the word “contextualize.” With all of the conflation, the well is poisoned. In the mistaken belief that calling God Allah is synonymous with “we all worship the same God” is synonymous with contextualization is synonymous with syncretism, we are ousting all of both the missions community and even the pastoral community and calling their work invalid, unbiblical, and even as some have said, heretical. Brothers, contextualization and bridging are not the problem. Furthermore, we ALL use both! It is bad contextualization (ie. syncretism) that is the problem. We contextualize poorly when we compromise the gospel by either confusing some essential truth and blending it with paganism (any false belief be it cultural or religious), or when we do not accurately present the gospel in their context (ie. We present our provincial understanding of Christian faith and practice which people reject not because of Jesus but because it just all appears foreign—read: American.). Not to be clique, but we are throwing the baby out with the bath water. In a zeal to fight pluralism, many have painted themselves into the equally unbiblical and nonsensical corner of denying that contextualization is biblical or that Paul, Jesus and others used it. We can, and should, always have the discussion of how far is too far and how far is not far enough, but simply denying that it happens is both biblically untenable and operationally impossible.
There is a great need for clarity and charity as we move forward as a convention and a mission board on these issues.
Let us first look at that which is problematic.
- It is not relational. The Camel looks for interested parties only. It is very presentation driven (though arguably, one could use this model relationally. It is not, however, presented as such). Muslim peoples are relational. If you come in with a “short sell” presentation, you will only talk to those who are interested—these people tend to be marginalized in their culture. If you come in relationally, you will quickly be passed through their social connections. IMO, being introduced to the entire network has more gospel potential. Even if one is set on using the Camel, if they are first relational and passed through a social network, then it seems that they would have even more starting point for using the Camel.
- It is a bait and switch. A practitioner goes into the mosque because he just happened to be studying the Quran, just happened to be reading Surah Al-Imran, and just happened to have “questions,” but when the floor is opened to them for discussion, it is now presentation time. This reminds me of the Mormons who come to my door to “talk about Jesus,” and then in the first sentence start talking about Joseph Smith.
- It is “silver bullet” mentality. I used to love silver bullets, until I realized they were only silver bullets in my mind. Most of the time the “lostie” was unimpressed. It is like the emperor’s new clothes; telling the emperor that he is naked might be true, but it can be harmful to your health. As westerners who value truth and exposure—or at least we say we do—we often assume that if we can just expose the darkness that they will be ready to come “walk the isle.” In reality, when most people are confronted with silver bullet truth, their response is either anger or denial.
- It doesn’t strike me as convincing. The first time I read it, I laughed when I read the acronym. As SBCers, we are addicted to acronyms in our evangelism [F.A.I.T.H. anyone?]. It is not that an acronym is bad. It definitely helps people to learn the method. I guess I have just been moving away from the gospel as syllogism to the gospel as story in my evangelism encounters. C.A.M.E.L is an acronym for the various points of reinterpreting Surah Al-Imran. It is based on a folk tale about the names for God, where the final name is a secret that only the camel knows. I just don’t see Muslims sitting around puzzling about the secret name of God which the camel knows. It also doesn’t strike me as a real moment of enlightenment for them when they see that we have acronized and spelled out camel in Al-Imran. Probably much in the same way I was not very moved by the Bible Code. I didn’t come to faith because someone had a well put together presentation. I came to faith because people were involved in my life, who I trusted, and over time told me the gospel story starting from the beginning.
- It doesn’t seem to be as effective on Muslims who speak Arabic. The Camel was developed in the east Asia where they do not speak Arabic. Hearing/reading the content of Al-Imran for the first time in their local tongue is probably way more earth shattering for someone in Bangladesh or Indonesia who has probably never read the Quran than it is for someone from Saudi, Oman, or Yemen. Recently we had a church group in my city go through Camel training. They proceeded to go to a mosque and try it. After facing a lack of interest and complete rejection, they came to us and asked, “now what?” The Camel seems to be good for what it is designed to do, but it doesn’t have any “now what?” options. In a Muslim majority country, one can simply move to the next mosque. In the west, however, there are a limited number of mosques to try. Not to mention that when church groups get too overt, the Imam blocks them from having access to his people.
The misconceptions….
- The Camel is an evangelism plan. This is the most common misconception I hear. I would personally be concerned if I thought we had someone saying that Al-Imran was a sufficient enough depiction of Jesus to bring people to salvation. The problem is that Greeson never says that. In fact, The Camel is not even an evangelism plan at all; it is a plan to find a person of peace. It is impossible to understand the Camel without understanding the concept of CPM as laid out by Garrison [you can find the short book here; it is the 1999 book in the bottom right]. The use of the Quran in the Camel is primarily to oust the person of peace. He goes in, talks about Al-Imran, see who looks interested or follows him out the door, and then he moves on to the Bible and presenting the gospel sans the Quran. He is explicitly clear about this in his book. When he does talk about salvation he presents the “Korbani plan of salvation” [If you don’t have access to the book, you can find the basics here]. Detractors will point out that a full Nicene orthodoxy is not present. I would say in return that most Gospel tracts and presentations I have heard do not contain it either. Not containing the full embodiment of theology is not the same as erring from the same doctrine. Most people don’t know or understand everything even in our context when they come to Christ—so we need to be careful with that one. Beyond, this criticism, the Korbani plan is a simple and contextual chronological storying presentation. Whether you like the Korbani plan or not isn’t the point. Most people who do not like the Camel as an evangelism plan are referring to what he does in the mosque. But they have misread [or some have never read] what the book says. In the mosque he is simply trying to find a person of peace. If you don’t like person of peace and CPM methodology, then Garrison is a better one to talk to.
- The Camel puts the Quran on par with the Bible. The Camel does not advocate that the Quran is from God (ie. Inspired, infallible, etc). The book is replete with examples and statements to that end. He does use it to find a person of peace, but when he goes to evangelism he leaves the Quran behind. Quoting from the Quran is not a carte blanche affirmation of all that it says. For the record, selective quoting is exactly what Paul did at the areopagus. He definitely would not affirm all that those poets said, and the reaction of the crowd demonstrates that they did not take him to make such a claim.
- The Camel teaches that people can get saved from the Quran. Again, it is not an evangelism plan. The Camel does not advocate that Muslims can be saved via the Quran. The Camel uses the Quran for a bridge. The concept of bridging is both useful and biblical. Most missionaries from other parts of the world would “kill” to have an embedded culturally accepted instruction handed down from their “grand-pumbalah,” recorded and preserved authoritatively which would tell adherents to go read the Bible! So why wouldn’t someone use a surah which told Muslims to read the Gospels? After all, It’s not where you start, it is where you end. It doesn’t really bother me if someone starts in the mosque with some sly questions and quotes about the Quran so long as they end up presenting the whole story.
- The Camel is part of the “insider” movement. IMB does not endorse the insider movement. To my knowledge, advocates for the insider movement do not use the Camel. It appears the two groups and two methods are counter exclusive. In addition to the IMB’s position, I know that Garrison has written against the insider movement. Not only are these kind of incendiary statements not accurate, they are simply the cheap tactics of building straw men and poisoning the well. The implication is that obviously since the insider movement is bad and the Camel is part of it, then the Camel is also bad. The problem is that the two are not synonymous. Each must be critically evaluated on its own merits, not the merits or vices of the other..
- The Camel is not synonymous with the “c” scale. This is the same fallacy and misconception as the previous one only with new ingredients. Practitioners on almost all levels of the C-scale can use the Camel with integrity to their position. Conversely, there are practitioners on all levels who do not use the Camel. [If you want to know more, you can google “John Travis” and “Christ Centered Community.” The scale, IMO, isn’t the best way of talking about contextualization and even mentioning the scale can open up a floor fight.] The Camel is not “c5” or “c4” and technically speaking, it is not even on the c-scale at all. The C-scale only refers to churches, not to missionaries or contextualization approaches. The method of finding a person of peace can be done by anyone at any point on the c-scale. The IMB does not affirm any ministry or methods beyond C-4. As public and controversial as this topic is, The Camel would not traverse beyond that.
- The Camel affirms the prophet-hood of Muhammad. This one is just plain ridiculous. Some people have a three prong approach: 1 attack Muhammad, 2 attack Islam, 3 present Jesus [4. Go call a lawyer]. Assaulting Muhammad, as Jerry Vines did back at the convention after 9-11, is considered defaming Muhammad and defaming Islam. This will get one kicked out of pretty much any Muslim country. In many countries, it can mean jail time or worse. Saying “peace be upon him” is simply being respectful. It is important to have a respectful but honest answer to the endless stream of “What do you think of Muhammad?” There are many indirect ways to communicate that one does not affirm his prophet-hood. Walk a mile in their shoes: what would you think if someone came to your house to tell you about a religion but started by saying your mom was fat, dumb, and ugly? Your mom might be fat, dumb, and ugly, but pointing out the obvious isn’t the way to gain a hearing. The problem with defamation in Islamic countries, is that they have laws on the books. Where insulting someone’s mother might just get you punched, going after Muhammad will only end badly.
- The Camel was invented by Americans and outsiders. I think only people who have never read the book make this claim. Greeson pilfered, (ahem, I mean researched) this methodology after interviewing local successful evangelists. This is an indigenous methodology. Extractionists methodology, however, does tend to stem from westerners [even if an MBB is the one talking about extraction, rarely did they reach that conclusion in a void. They have probably been extracted themselves]. Extractionism is the brainchild of the colonial period.
- The Camel is required training by the IMB, or all IMB missionaries working with Muslims are using The Camel. I cannot speak for all IMB folks. However, when I went through field orientation, no one even mentioned the Camel. I have talked with my team about it, and none of them use it. Perhaps with other teams it is required, but I don’t personally know of any.
The way forward…
As the discussion in your circle [blog, church, school, team, etc] progresses, rather than simply asking the question “is the camel right?” or “is contextualization right?” and the painting a target on it and rejecting everything, how about breaking the question into parts which can be evaluated individually.
Consider the following scenario: I used to answer the “what do you think of the camel?” with a simple yes or no, or a short explanation. The problem is that there are a lot of questions rolled up into that one question. To give a simple yes was to affirm many misconceptions [you call God Allah so you think that religions worship the same God!]. Now when I am asked about my views, I start asking a series of “do you mean…” questions. Rather than asking for a simple yes or no, we need to look at the following questions individually:
1) Can we call God Allah? [more importantly can we call Jesus `Isa?]
2) Are they the same God?
3) Is calling God Allah the same as saying that they are the same God?
4) Does saying that God and Allah are the same being mean we are saying that both religions are equally valid and salvation is found in both?
5) Can we use quranic bridging?
6) Is mentioning the Quran or appealing to the Quran the same as affirming it is inspired and inerrant?
Breaking it into its parts will hopefully foster better communication between parties, greater understanding, and less branding people as heretics. Calling out IMB personnel, and even Jerry Rankin as heretics is presumptuous, incendiary, and, when done for shock and personal notoriety, is carnal. There is a plethora of theologians and missionaries who support the work in whole or in part–not the least of whom are Jerry Rankin, Daniel Akin, David Nelson, and Bruce Ashford–perhaps we should find out why they think what they do before we go to lighting torches.
Perhaps we need to come up with some basic statement on basic truths and parameters we affirm in contextualized missions since most of these discussions do not contradict the BFM, but only because they are beyond the scope of the BFM.
And now back to my bombshelter!



Brother Rastis,
Hmmm, this should be fun!
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
Brother Rastis,
“Your mom might be fat, dumb, and ugly, but pointing out the obvious isn’t the way to gain a hearing.”
How we love our neighbor is important…. so I think the chunk of wisdom above is probably a good start.
It does take a little common sense doesn’t it….
Blessings,
Chris
Surah Al-Imran = 3rd Chapter of the Quran
MBB = Muslim Background Believer
Those of us with a limited exposure to Islam need some of the terminology explained
.
Rastis,
Very thought-provoking. It will be interesting to see what reactions this elicits. You have potentially opened yourself up to “bombs” from both sides on this one. Yet, IMHO, what you say here is well thought out, objective, and sound.
As I read through this, I can see a lot of parallels with questions of appropriate contextualization in a traditionally Catholic culture like Spain (where I served 18 years). The question “What do you think of Muhammad?” is very similar to the question “Is it true that you Protestants don’t believe in the Blessed Virgin?” And, there are various levels of completeness and full disclosure (or lack thereof) in the way we might answer both questions.
A gauge I try to use in my own mind, when faced with questions like this is, “If the person I am talking to were to actually get saved, and, a few months (or years) down the road come to fully understand everything about who I am, what I believe, and what I am doing here, would they have reason to think I was somehow trying to deceive them?”
That same question applies in the issue of platforms as well. While we don’t have to always give full disclosure to everyone about our real motives, we need to be careful that we are not leaving ourselves open to the accusation of being less than honest.
Paul had something very interesting to say about this in 2 Cor. 4:2:
“Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.”
As far as names for God or Allah are concerned, I found reading the following articles on “El” and “Ba’al” very eye-opening. The issue is actually quite complex, and not nearly as black and white as some people (on either side) like to make it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba%27al
(especially section 2: “Ba’al as a divine title in Israel and Judah”
Thanks for helping us think through these issues.
Ok, can some PLEASE link to an explanation of what the Camel is? It’s awesome to be discussing it and whether it’s a good thing or not but I haven’t the foggiest idea what you’re talking about other than what I can infer from what you’ve discussed in the article.
Joe,
If you haven’t followed the on-going dialogue in SBC circles, it’s going to be hard to get you “up to speed” in one blog comment. Actually, a big part of the problem, as I understand Rastis to be saying here, is cursory sound-bite explanations of The Camel, that lead to false assumptions and vague generalities.
My suggestion is to order the book and read for yourself, at:
http://www.camelmethod.com/index.html
Someone else might want to provide some other links to significant articles, blogposts, etc. where this discussion has been going on, for those who are “uninitiated.”
Joe, my apologies, here is a link for the book
http://www.camelmethod.com/
I will try to find a website which objectively describes the method.
David,
Thanks, I would love to hear more about your answer to the Mary question. I think with any evangelism context it is easy to find people to tell us why something is wrong and how to shout it down. Few, however, are the people who actually lead us into true communication.
In terms of affirming or denying the prophet-hood of Muhammad, it is not that we need to hide anything, it is just that we need to do it politely. In the west, we are used to direct communication (vs indirect communication). We use straight yes and no answers, or short blunt responses. There are ways of indirectly letting them know that there is a disagreement without using defamation. It just requires a paradigm shift. Step one requires leaving the politics at the door…
Platform honesty, or dishonesty as the case may be, is such a sticky issue. As I indicated, I don’t like bait and switch tactic, and some platforms definitely fall under this.
Thanks for this introduction to the issue. I’ve heard it talked about but now I feel like I have a basic grasp of the issues involved. Short of reading the book itself (which I may do if this controversy continues to grow) I just want to say thanks for the blog post. It seems to me a pretty fair look at the strengths and weaknesses of the method.
Rastis, in your post you say, “It is a bait and switch. A practitioner goes into the mosque because he just happened to be studying the Quran, just happened to be reading Surah Al-Imran, and just happened to have “questions,” but when the floor is opened to them for discussion, it is now presentation time. This reminds me of the Mormons who come to my door to “talk about Jesus,” and then in the first sentence start talking about Joseph Smith.
When Paul was invited to speak at the Aereopagus his audience was expecting him to present a new god to be added to their pantheon. Yet Paul rejected their idols and proclaimed the One true God and Jesus Christ as the only way to salvation. I don’t think that you or I would consider Paul’s actions a “bait and switch.” What’s the difference that makes the Camel method a bait and switch when Paul’s method is not?
I appreciate the balanced view here, Rastis. It is fascinating to me the array of views on the Camel method – from supportive to somewhat shrill (referring to things I have read in other places).
I think I agree with Joe Blackmon (don’t tell anyone!). I probably need to read something on my own to figure it out. I’ve heard lots of opinions about the CAMEL – I should probably read more about it for myself.
Again, thanks for a balanced and reasoned review.
Rastis,
On the Mary question, for me, it really depends on discerning the true interests and intentions of the person asking the question.
One typical answer, on one extreme, is: “Oh no, we do believe that the Virgin Mary was the mother of our Lord Jesus. We believe she was the most blessed woman to be born on this earth.”
An answer on the opposite extreme is: “We don’t worship Mary like you do. The Bible teaches us we should never worship anyone except God Himself. The Bible also teaches us there is only One Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus. So, we should not pray to Mary, either. And, the Bible also tells us Jesus had brothers and sisters. So, although she was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, she did not remain so forever. So, the Catholic Church is wrong about Mary. And, if you want to follow the truth, and quit worshiping idols, you need to quit being a Catholic and become an Evangelical.”
Both answers are true. But with differing degrees of full disclosure, and tact used in giving them.
Depending on the individual, and how I interpret their attitude, I would seek for an answer somewhere in between these two extremes, hoping to have the opportunity, as God continued to open doors, to work through, little by little, with an open Bible, the various issues treated in the second response.
Dave
Great minds think….like me.
8^)
Andrew,
Part of the difference I would say is that Paul was in the synagogue and the market place proclaiming Christ. When they drug him to the areopagus, it was under the pretense of telling them what he was talking about.
There is an interesting division in the chapter. Initially Paul was proclaiming Jesus and the resurrection. The natives reaction was that he was talking about a foreign God. Then the passage shifts. They drug him to the areopagus. From that point forward, he does not directly talk about Jesus [he does refer to him euphemistically as "that one"]. He takes a more “cosmic” approach to the story. He both identified the God he was talking about as a God they already worshiped (the unknown God) and at the same time, redefined him so that he would not be mistaken with a simple idol (not made with hands, does not dwell in temple, lawgiver, Judge, creator and the proof of all of that was “that one” who was raised from the dead). So I don’t view what Paul did as trying to change the debate. Rather, he took his view of God and tried to show how it was already compatible with their culture. He didn’t want Jesus to be rejected as foreign. Some still rejected him because they could not buy the concept of the resurrection, but Jesus at least received a fair hearing.
Excellent article. When I lived and worked in North Africa I never used Camel. I always thought of it as another method developed by Westerners…used in Asia and then packaged to be used around the world….and I never saw it to be very effective for many of the reasons you mentioned above.
Looking forward to seeing further dialogue from others.
I’ve got some more thoughts about all this that also tie in with my post on The Seduction of Political Idolatry. I’m going to post them over there, in an effort to not hijack this comment stream, and try to let it stay on topic, more specifically about The Camel Method.
Rastis,
I guess I’m just wondering if people who use the Camel method must be intentionally using the “bait and switch” technique.
What if a Messianic Jew purposely went into a synagogue to preach the gospel and was given the opportunity to speak? He starts off reviewing the history of the Israelites and the promise of the Messiah and then goes right into the core of the gospel message. Is that deceitful? I don’t see it as being that different from what you described as being a “bait and switch” technique of the Camel method.
Good article Rastis. I do not work with Muslims but I did read The Camel Method when it first came out and thought it was probably a helpful book. I am a little surprised at the continuing controversy it has caused. However, I think the reason is related to Dave Miller’s recent blog on Baptist Identity and the tendency he mentions to take issues such as tithing and connecting that to support for homosexuality and abortion. It has been a common practice among some Southern Baptists for the last 30 years to take any disagreement and try to paint those with different view as heretics.
I appreciate your listing of your criticisms of the Camel Method without resorting to using the words heresy or liberal theology. This is the way a discussion should be done. I also appreciate you showing the absurdity of some of the criticisms by others. You mentioned David Hesselgrave. I have studied contextualization under him and have a couple of his books on contextualization. When did contextualization become a bad word? I can’t believe some of comments I have read recently by those who I can only assume have never tried to minister in a cross cultural setting. Again, this relates to Dave Miller’s post and the trend in the SBC over the last 30 years to look for things to attack others on even when you are uninformed on the subject. You hit the nail on the head when you said, “Brothers, contextualization and bridging are not the problem. Furthermore, we ALL use both! It is bad contextualization (i.e. syncretism) that is the problem.”
I have lived and ministered in the Chinese culture for the last 30 years. There has been an attempt to use Confucian thought and the origin of certain Chinese written characters as a bridge to reach Chinese intellectuals. It hasn’t been especially successful but it has been interesting to read and think about. In some ways it reminds me of what the Camel Method proponents are trying to do.
As far as the use of the word Allah for God, I am not an expert on Arabic or Islam but it seems there is little choice. The Christians in Malaysia are fighting a legal battle right now for the right to use that term. Is seems strange that Craner and others seem to be supporting the Muslims and opposing the Christians on this issue.
In Chinese there are basically two terms that are used for God, Shen or Shang Di. The meaning for Shen can be interpreted as spirit, god, or any supernatural being. Shang Di is associated with a supreme god or sometimes heaven or sky. When we use Shen we often preface it by the term Jen as in True God. These were terms with meanings to the Chinese very different than our concept of God but when Christians began translating the Bible into Chinese these were basically the only two possible terms to use. At least one of these terms was used by Lottie Moon, Hudson Taylor, Bertha Smith and all the other missionaries and Chinese believers you may have studied in your missions courses. I wonder why there has been no outcry on these terms the way there has been over Allah.
Ron West
Well, for one thing, the Camel method seems deceptive. It’s almost like a try to trick you type of thing.
Secondly, I dont remember Paul and the Apostles using Zeus and Jupiter when speaking to the Romans and the Greeks about God. They didnt see the need to try to equate the holy, Father God with some false notion of who God is….i.e., the Allah of the Quran is not the same God as the Bible. It doesnt take much reading of the Quran to see that.
There are many, many more problems…some very serious problems…with using something like the Camel method. I hope that others will bring these problems up in this discussion.
David
The difference I would say, is that in the scenario you talk about regarding the synagogue, or more specifically Paul, they are going in as a teacher. That is the equivalent to getting an invitation from Al-Azhar or the local mosque to teach on “Did Jesus die on the Cross?” “Is Jesus God?” etc. That is different than going in to “learn.”
Put the shoe on the other foot, how would you feel about a Mormon, Catholic, JW, or “metaphysical Christian” (a new ager who uses the Bible) who came into the middle of the service to “learn” and then started reading the text through their filter in order to draw out the unlearned? That would be highly inappropriate in our contexts. Why would we think that it would be appropriate overseas? I try to use that as a loose baseline: how would I perceive “x” if it was tried on me? Is it convincing? Is it intellectually honest? Is it appropriate in the given context?
If the agenda is to learn, then learn. If the agenda is to teach, then teach. If the agenda is to take a survey…
couldn’t resist.
Ron,
thanks for the comment.
In the book by Hesselgrave that I mentioned, he has a very good chapter retelling the history of contextualization and why it was controversial. All of his examples predate the whole camel bruhaha. He, Heibert, and others have done a good job, IMO, redeeming the word and making it useful. However, the trajectory of the camel debates is such that it will be a tainted word before long, if it is not already.
“I wonder why there has been no outcry on these terms the way there has been over Allah.”
Politics… Those other groups aren’t our enemies. Contextualization is something that missionaries do around the world and no one seems to care. The goal is to have indigenous churches not western transplanted churches. But the difference is politics.
Volfan,
You say: “I dont remember Paul and the Apostles using Zeus and Jupiter when speaking to the Romans and the Greeks about God.”
Have you, by any chance, read through the articles I link to above about “El” and “Ba’al”? I think they might correct some preconceived notions you seem to have about using the names of pagan gods to refer to the One True God.
Volfan
Are you saying that the camel teaches that Allah and God are the same?
Rastis,
You say to Ron:
“‘I wonder why there has been no outcry on these terms the way there has been over Allah.’
Politics… Those other groups aren’t our enemies. Contextualization is something that missionaries do around the world and no one seems to care. The goal is to have indigenous churches not western transplanted churches. But the difference is politics.”
Yes, indeed. There really does seem to be a lot of cross-over between my post of the other day and your post here.
Rastis,
After reading Acts 13:13-41 I don’t see Paul and Barnabas as entering the synogogue with their religious convictions known, and when the speaker says, “1Brothers, if you have a message of encouragement for the people, please speak,” I don’t think he had any clue that Paul and Barnabas were going to proclaim Christ as the Messiah.
If the Camel method tells people to go to mosques and lie to the people pretending they have “questions,” then use the floor present the gospel, that’s problematic, but if they go in with the hope of an opportunity to speak, I don’t see that as being “bait and switch.” I haven’t read the book, so I’m trusting you to clearly articulate if the approach calls for a true “bait and switch” or if people have just used it that way in contrast to it’s intention.
BTW, a couple gutsy LDS missionaries came to one of our church services years ago and spoke out during the testimony time. They didn’t say anything about their beliefs, but it sure got the pastor’s attention.
“Yes, indeed. There really does seem to be a lot of cross-over between my post of the other day and your post here.”
Absolutely! With out a doubt, there is a connection between politics and missions strategy/approaches. And that is where it gets messy…
Conversion language in this context is not viewed as religious and spiritual, but political. Those who “convert” are often viewed as traitors who are disloyal to family and clan. We really need more finesse.
I guess we should use the Book of Mormon to try to win Mormons? Should we use the Watchtower to try to win JW’s? Or, maybe we should use the Shack to try to reach heretics?
Paul and the Apostles went into synagogues and preached Jesus as the Messiah….using the OT(God’s Word) to show that Jesus is the Messiah of the OT. Mohammed was a false prophet. The Quran teaches a false religion. I really see nothing in the Bible that shows Christians using false teachings, and blessing false prophets, in order to win people involved in a false religion.
I do see the Apostles going into places, and when given the opportunity to speak, they preach the Gospel. They did try to preach it in a way that the crowd could relate to, yes. Peter preached to the Jews using the OT. Paul spoke on Mars Hill in a philosophical way. But, to use a false book about a false religion, or giving any kind of credence to a false prophet; naaaaa.
I didnt see Paul quoting Socrates and Aristotle on Mars Hill. I didnt hear him calling God “Zeus,” so that it would fit into the language they could understand. He preached Jesus to them.
David
My reference to Paul in the synagogue as a teacher was in A17. Jews also have a very convenient category to serve as a bridge–the messiah. That is very Jewish. He was simply arguing for a specific candidate. Muslims, on the other hand, do not really have a category for “Jesus is God” or “Al-Masih is God.” So there is no real clear parallel between the two groups and approaches.
It is interesting to me that the farther into acts one goes, the better Paul handles the synagogue. It is not long from 17 till they start asking him to stay.
Part of the difference with Paul is that he was an insider at the synagogue. It is a little different for us to do the same as a westerner. He also had the proper credentials. I doubt any practitioners of the camel have a degree from Al-Azhar university.
Camel practitioners are not going in to lie. They do have questions. But the meeting is a bit contrived. It is not a “full” bait and switch since they really don’t talk about the gospel at the mosque. In other words, they are not going in to talk about the Quran and then they whip out their Bibles. They are going in there with a hidden agenda [that of interpreting the Quran in an unorthodox fashion in order to see who is open minded enough and spiritually away enough to want to talk more about the new interpretation. That is their person of peace].
Again, if someone came to Sunday school to learn, but then started reinterpreting the Bible in order to find those who are on the fence, then we would probably view that with great animosity.
I am not wanting you to hear me say that Greeson is teaching people to lie, or that practitioners are lying. They are simply doing the same thing that most evangelicals do. My problem with that is the other person probably feels like they have just been hit with an amway pitch.
David W
Can you answer the question I asked? Do you think that the camel teaches that the “Muslim God” and “Christian God” are one?
Your response to the post serves as a good test case as to the problems inherent in most discussions. You are interjecting all kinds of disagreements, the problem is that Greeson never claims any of those…
Forgive me, but I am forced to ask at this juncture, have you ever read the Camel?
Are you aware that Paul selectively quoted pagan philosophers at the areopagus and that he started his discourse with an idol? It is not about where you start, it is about where you end up.
For the record, there are many Socratic euphemisms in Paul’s writings.
I am going to post this comment here, and not on the comment stream on my post, since it doesn’t really relate to politics, per se.
Another parallel between mission work in Muslim contexts and Catholic contexts, is between working with and through the “insider” movement, and those who say we ought to work with Catholic groups, such as the Charismatic Renewal, to try to infiltrate the Catholic Church itself with the gospel.
As I see it, Paul started out an “insider” at the synagogue. But, as he continued to proclaim clearly what he really believed, he continually found himself getting kicked out of synagogues, and, many times, stoned by synagogue people. There is a time and a place for using these platforms. But, once the truth comes out, people will see a difference. And, if they don’t, we probably need to ask ourselves how faithful we are being to the gospel we are supposedly proclaiming.
Rastis:
You are finding real quickly that you can not dialogue with 007. It just will not work. Good luck to you.
Rastis,
Would you say then that your primary issue with the Camel’s approach of going into mosques is their intention to reinterpret the Quran to fit Christian beliefs?
In other words, would you find it acceptable for a Christian to enter a mosque with the full intention of speaking clearly and truthfully about Jesus if given the platform to do so?
Do you agree with Volfan that Christians ought not use the Quran to teach people about Jesus? Do you think that there are levels of “Quranic bridging” that are acceptable?
I always thought monologuing with 007 got you killed
Andrew,
I don’t know that the mosque is the most effective place for dialogue. It seems that in going there, you are coming into a place with very distinctly defined social roles. I think it is better in general simply to have a legitimate platform which keeps you connected to people [I will certainly yield to any brothers working in those countries who disagree with that]. In cities outside Muslim majority countries, it might be more difficult to locate places to meet Muslims (it can be done), but it is not like if you are living in Iran and don’t go to mosque that you won’t meet muslims.
Where I tend to disagree with the camel really is a practical disagreement. I do agree with the camel in principle: contextualized language, quranic bridging, etc. Like Greeson, I do not affirm that the Quran is inspired, infallible, etc.
One of the benefits of Greeson’s approach is that it gives young “converts” a way to approach their family and community. In some cases a young man will go home and declare that he has become a Christian, changed his name to a Christian name, will no longer be going to mosque, reading the Quran, and then proceeds to defame Muhammad and Islam. How will his father respond? The real problem is that the father doesn’t understand any of those terms and reacts based on his perceptions [Kinda like a fight at the SBC...].
On the other hand, the young man can go to his father and start talking about Surah Al-Imran in the course of a normal conversation. He can see how his father reacts and discern the best way to explain his new faith. This doesn’t mean that he won’t end up being persecuted by his father. But he will at least be able to explain the gospel first-hopefully.
Rastis,
Has anyone created a scale or tool to describe different levels of “Quranic bridging?”
Not to my knowledge.
Well, get working on it!
nope… political climate has to change in the SBC before I would put my name on anything like that…. Be the next whipping boy?
we seriously need more open discussions, and there are a lot of good people who have unpublished works which would shed light on all of this and open up some good discussion, but they all see how Greeson and others have been treated–Rankin was just called a heretic–so there is a reticence over getting dragged into the spotlight. That is physically, emotionally, and spiritually exhausting and they want to stay focused on the task.
Frankly some of the objections to the Camel method that I had heard before today struck me as a little misguided. But I really, really object to bait and switch methods.
If the mosque technique is as Rastis describes it, it is deception, pure and simple.
Unfortunately Christians have become proficient at this. How many people are sent door to door doing “surveys” that are simply a smoke screen for a Gospel pitch?
I’ve heard people with my own ears talk about retail store evangelism. Basically walking around a store, accosting shoppers. One of them said, “if you put something in your cart, they can’t kick you out”
I don’t have a problem with a Christian knowing what the Koran, Book of Mormon, or Watchtower says. Such knowledge could be useful in interactions with these groups. But be up front with them. Don’t pretend to be interested in what they can teach you.
I should point out that one can use the Camel outside of the context of the Mosque. http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/4883/53/ Greeson points out that he uses it in daily interactions. I don’t think those would fall under the “bait and switch” comment. It is common place to be asked ones beliefs about the Quran, Muhammad, Jesus as God, did God have sex with Mary, etc. In my limited dealings with Muslims to date, I have been asked most of those questions. Those do open the door to conversation, but it must be done wisely.
Vol, I think you are missing the point, perhaps willfully. The Zeus analogy is not well taken.
Zeus is the name of a particular god – a false god. But Greeks would have used the name theos to refer to their gods, just as we would. It is the Greek Word. Hebrews were not the only people who used the name “El” or “Elohim” – the name is similar among all semitic languages.
If you speak Arabic, as I understand it, you use “Allah” to refer to God.
I’ve seen in comment streams that you have fallen in love with this analogy, but it is not a good one.
Kevin Greeson said the following in The Camel:
“Muslims take great offense at those who would profane their prophet. The best bridge to overcome the barrier of Mohammed is to simply say, ‘I agree with what the Qur’an says about Mohammed.’ The Qur’an does not say that Mohammed was the greatest prophet. It does say that he was the ‘seal of the prophets’ in surah al-Ahzab 33:40; seal only means the last, not the greatest. (Please note: We are not saying that Mohammed is a true prophet or the seal of the prophets; we are only making you aware of what you might face from the Qur’an).”
Kevin Greeson, The Camel: How Muslims Are Coming to Faith in Christ (Arkadelphia, AR: WIGTake Resources, 2007), 144.
Surah 33:40 says, “Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is Cognizant of all things.”
The Qur’an, trans. M.H. Shakir, 6th edition (Elmhurst, NY: Tahrike Tarsile Qur’an, Inc., 1990), 279.
The Qur’an clearly says that Muhammed is a true prophet of God. We don’t believe that Muhammed is a true prophet of God. How can we say that we “agree with what the Qur’an says about Mohammed”?
Brother David (Volfan),
Paul didn’t use Zeus, but he felt Theos and Kyrios to be appropriate. Don’t both of these seem equally questionable? Despite his aggression toward CM proponents, I think Ergun Caner is helpful on this point by contending Allah is appropriate for speakers of Arabic (2/11/2010 ABP interview). The Arabs that my family worships with each week typically use Al Rub, but Allah is often used as well. Anecdotal I know, but helpful to demonstrate that some Arabic speakers are comfortable with Allah in the same way that Maasai believers are comfortable with Engai and Jesus was comfortable with Theos. Hope you receive this in the spirit I intend.
Enjoy your weekend!
Volfan,
Woops. Didn’t see Dave Miller’s comment. Maybe that makes it a question you might want to answer:)
Blessings,
Baptist theologue,
If you read past the end of your quote [in the camel], Greeson clarifies which part of the Quran he is referencing: “I am but a plain warner”-46:9.
He is not affirming the totality of quranic claims concerning Muhammad. Nevertheless, he should probably reword it so that people cannot take it out of context and then apply it ubiquitously to the whole Quran.
Brother Rastis,
I believe you will find that the Camel Method asks; ‘Do you serve Allah? I serve Allah also’, or something to that nature. At the very outset of the conversation one has interjected a deceptive question and answer. When a Christian uses “Allah” in reference to a Muslim it needs to be expressed up front we are not speaking about the same God.
From The Camel website;
Q: Is it okay for Christians to use the name “Allah” for God?
A: In speaking with many Muslims, “Allah” is the only name that most of them know. Christian Arabs have been using the name “Allah” for God for centuries before the birth of Muhammad and the Muslim religion. It remains the name used by Bible translators in many predominantly Muslim countries around the world today. Allah simply means ‘God’, and so has no meaning apart from the meaning that we give it. This is why it is important for Christians to clarify that the God we worship is defined by the only Word of God, the Bible.
No one disagrees with the arabic term for God. In the OT you will find that Baal was a term for God. However, and I am preaching on this tomorrow
, Elijah did not employ that term. He identified specifically who(m)it was he was referencing. If we are speaking of Creator God then that includes God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For a Muslim that is absurd.
Q: Does the Camel Method believe the Quran is revealed by God?
A: By no means! But we do recognize that it is the worldview defining authority for more than a billion Muslims. This is why the Camel Method reaches into the Quranic worldview of Muslims to draw them out of their book and into the Bible where, alone, they can find salvation.
In the advertisement for the tract one will find; Ruhullah, or “Spirit of God,” is one of the three titles used for Jesus in the Quran (along with “Messiah” and “Word of God”). For anyone to use the Quran to point to the titles of Jesus and then point to Scripture to find Jesus, one has placed the Quran on the same level of authority as Scripture. Also, the “Isa” in the Quran is not the same Jesus of the Scripture. The “Isa” of the Quran, is taught to be a created being, as I understand it.
Thus, no one is saying we should throw this entire matter out and never use it. What has been advocated all along, even when it was introduced at SEBTS in 1999 (?)was that it needed some changes to be an acceptable presentation.
Also, the tract on the Camel Method website ends;
“Today you, too, can become a Pakka Muslim. All you have to do is to believe that Allah gave the korban for you, substituting Isa for you. Stop now, hold your hands up before you, and humbly tell Allah that you receive His korban and thank Him for placing on Isa the punishment for your guilt and sins. In this way, Allah will forgive you of your sin and remove its curse from you. When you are cleansed of your sins, then you can go to be with Allah after you die. You can now live your life in peace knowing that after death you can go directly to be with Allah.”
I believe that “Pakka” means “complete”. And like one commenter said over at SBC Today, “My analysis is that they are advocating a superstitious belief that the Prophet Isa can give you a free ticket to paradise.” Please note that no place in the summary paragraph does this method dileneate between Allah of the Arabic translated Scripture and the Allah of the Quran.
Even if you advocate this being a bridge there are still serious issues that cannot be reconciled.
Blessings,
Tim
Great post. It is good to read a non biased article that highlights many important points in dealing with the Camel. i
Raise your Hand if you have actually read the Book.
Brother Jeremiah,
If a book says; “This method is not intended to place the Quoran on the same authority as Scripture”, but then distributes tracts stating what the above tract mentions, then it makes the statement of the book null and void.
Blessings,
Tim
At risk of seeming self-promoting, I recommend my review of the Camel published in the 9Marks July/August2009 eJournal. The review there is distilled from a much more extensive paper I wrote on the Camel. You can read the review here: http://www.9marks.org/CC/article/0,,PTID314526_CHID598014_CIID2482670,00.html
Hi Doug,
Thanks for posting your review, and I appreciate your careful approach. Do you have the full paper available in some way?
Hi Tim,
Thanks for commenting. I definitely hear your objections. Evangelism in this context is messy. On the one hand, there are clear differences between the Islamic concept of God and the Biblical concept of God. The same is true of Jesus. To me, the main differences would be that our view of God is that He is triune and our view of Jesus is that he is divine. On the other hand, Muslims in general,and Arabs particularly, put a high priority on relationships. Thus, they use indirect communication. This cultural difference affects how we are received as straight talking, goal focused, truth oriented westerners. I am not advocating that we hide our theology in the slightest. But we must present it in a way that it will be heard and believed/rejected on its merits not on the propriety or impropriety of our presentation.
I have friends who start with all of the differences. Jesus is God; he is the son of God; God is triune. They rarely get to the second conversation. Most Muslims are well aware that we think differently than they do. They are surprised, however, to find out that we are like them in some ways. They are often pleasantly surprised to find that we Christians believe in God, believe in just one God, pray, read the scriptures, don’t drink alcohol, don’t think that God had sex with Mary, and don’t fornicate. IMO, starting with common ground is a good way to build trust.
After all, Jesus didn’t just show up and declare himself to be divine and demand worship. He called the disciples to a relationship long before they understood who he was. It took them some time watching him and hearing him before they realize who he was. The same is true with Muslims. Starting with “Jesus is God” is a good way to make sure that they don’t hear anything else [aside from the fact that they are hearing you affirm either tri-theism or modalism...]. They do need to understand that Jesus is not simply a prophet. This revelation happens for them the same way it happens for all of us, through the story.
I agree that they need to see the “differences,” but it must be done in a way that they can actually hear it clearly.
Peace
This whole issue seems to deal with a “head” approach to belief as opposed to a “heart” approach. As an insurance salesman, I learned a track by rote to sell insurance. Personally, I found it more successful to stay away from the basic training track and join my heart to that of the customer and find out what he was wanting, then provide it as much as possible!
I liked the Evangelism Explosion “track” but, again, it was a sales technique approach to religion. It’s whole attempt was to logically lead someone to say “yes” to the “right” questions which must be answered.
Finally, I started reading the Bible seriously, and particularly, the words of Paul in Romans 10:9–”believe in your heart / confess with your mouth / you will be saved.” Isn’t that simple!!!
Traditionally, the most effective missionaries have been those who bonded with the foreigners they met on the mission field and, through personal empathy, finally were able to share the Gospel message in terms the foreign person could understand because the missionary had reached the point of empathy (to feel into) which bonds humans who have the same needs spiritually together!
Depending on the difference in cultures, some results may be more quick than others. Remember, the IMB expects results in numbers as all good Baptists do. Well, results in spiritual real terms are not always just a matter of numbers of people who “walk the aisle.”
When it comes to Muslims and Christians we are in a battle which has raged since biblical times. They come from the same Abrahamic line, but they have “eternal reasons” to hate one another. If we can ever get past the stupidity of a constant hatred, we have a chance to communicate. Jesus got cricified for daring to advocate forgiveness to one’s enemies!!!
The prime question is: “Just because a Muslim does not sign onto Christianity, is he bound for Hell?”
I think the answer is contained in the famous poem, “Abu ben Adam.” Since space is limited you can Google it and come back with a response, if you wish. It contains worlds of wisdom about respect and having a common faith dispite using a different word for God/Allah. Regardless of the term used, both refer to a diety who created and loves us.
The Christian believes that Prophet is Jesus / the Muslim believes that Prophet is Mohamud. I, personally, think Jesus is more a real prophet, but I was raised in the South by a Baptist Preacher. Were I raised in Bagdad, it would likely be a different story.
Is religion more a matter of how we were reared than anything else????
What if the way to Heaven was not just being a Baptist Christian????
I’ll be nice and eliminate your search time:
Abou ben Adam
Abou ben Adam (may his tribe increase!)
awoke one night from a deep dream of peace,
And saw, within the moonlight of his room,
Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom,
an angel, writing in a book of of gold.
Exceeding peace had made Ben Adam bold,
And to the Prescence in the room he said:
“What writest thou?” The vision raised its head,
And, with a look made of all sweet accord,
Answered, “The names of those who love the Lord.”
“And is mine one?”said Abou, “Nay, not so,”
Replied the angel. Abou spoke more low,
But cheerily still, and said, “I pray thee, then,
Write me as one who loves his fellow men.”
The angel wrote, and vanished. The next night
It came again, with a great awakening light,
And showed the names whom love of God had blest,
And lo! Ben adam’s name led all the rest.
- Leigh Hunt
Brother Rastis,
You cultural differences argument is one worthy of consideration. Certianly one desires not to take culture for granted when presenting the gospel. However, here is another way of the confusion that exists with this method. A title in the tract “The Journey to Becoming a Pakka Muslim (One Who Is Truly Submitted to Allah)Surah Al-Imran 3:42-55″. The very term “Pakka Muslim” as one being truly submitted to Allah is deceptive as we have not gotten into the differences of Allah but we desire for the subject to think we are speaking about the deepest devotion of a Muslim. That is deceptive.
Blessings,
Tim
Brother Rastis,
One other thing. Our Brother Doug has written an excellent review of the book we are discussing. He gives great encouragement for the Method, but he clearly defines the weaknesses of the method. I am not against developing a method I am just against the deception used and the clear movement into a C5 context with the presentation.
Blessings,
Tim
Gene Scarborough,
You have two problems with what you have just advocated in comment #52. First, it denies Acts 4:12. Second it is heresy to say that Jesus is a prophet the same as Mohommad. If what you say is true then our Missionaries are the worst people in the world for trying to present the gospel into an Islamic culture.
Blessings,
Tim
Acts 4:12 (TEV)–
“Salvation is to be found through him alone; in all the world there is no one else whom God has given who can save us.”
This is Peter’s testimony based on his willingness to believe Jesus is the Christ. I, too, share that “belief,” but not to the point I am convinced one can find God/Allah by another route. I “believe” that what Peter says is accurate and reliable and, as a “believer” I would want to share my “faith” through my actions that we have the way of truth. Ultimately faith and belief cannot be proven to the point of absolute certainty! If it were, by definition, it would be sealed in certainty rather than faith.
Another quality essential to my belief is the “joy of salvation” as well as a “peace that passes understanding” which should accompany it. That joy and peace allows me to give room to an equally believing Muslim who finds the same joy and peace to follow his heart into Eternal Life. I think we are in for some surprises as to who enters Heaven per the poem above. Otherwise we join the Mormons as believers that we will be the only ones in heaven.
I’ll just leave that ultimate judgement to God rather than the IMB or any fellow Baptist!
I didn’t say Jesus was a Prophet equal to Mohommad as you add to what I wrote. He is my Prophet by my faith and trust in what our Bible says. If a joyful and peaceful Muslim trusts more in the prophetic role of Mohommad, I won’t have a fist fight with him nor judge him. I will just share my faith and declare it to be sufficient for me–just as I did to a leading Mormon in north Metro Atlanta who thought he could win me to his faith. He dusted off his feet as he left me–and that was OK with me!
I don’t see it as heresy which is a strong derogatory word to use.
Now, can you give answer to my last 2 questions?
That is the heart of what I tried to communicate.
Gene Scarborough,
Is religion more a matter of how we were reared than anything else????
I am not promoting religion. I am promoting Biblical Christianity. You seem to have mixed up the two.
What if the way to Heaven was not just being a Baptist Christian???? Heaven is the final resting place for those who place their faith in Jesus Christ. There is no other name under Heaven where one can be saved. Your very response denies the integrity and veracity of the Scripture, which you say you believe. According to your response you have stated that Peter was merely speaking what his cultural perspective was from the previous 3 years of being with Jesus.
Also, your perspective that Jesus is your Prophet is removing the divinity from Jesus. I really am not believing I am seeing this heretical statements coming from one educated in an SBC Seminary. God help us.
Blessings on you,
Tim
Tim–
You deserve a reasoned answer. I don’t know you, but your blog seems to indicate you pastor a church around Charlotte and have a good sense of humor. How is the guy who crashed his truck in your front yard doing?
What is happening is you are confusing some well-rounded and reasoned discourse for heretical doctrine. Again, you are using a harsh word and missing the fact I am totally committed to Jesus as my Lord of life and faith.
If you will take a moment to walk in the shoes of a Muslim who never heard the Gospel account, you might realize where I am coming from. If that person never had a chance to hear the Gospel because we are drying up in giving to the point we can’t send 600+ this year, is God going to condemn him to Eternity in Hell just because he never heard? I am not omnicient enough to give an answer and gladly leave that up to God/Allah.
On the practical side and real history, us Southern Baptists were in the middle of Bold Mission Thrust in 1979. As I attended the Houston meeting with its Sky Box full of Patterson and Pressler calling shots, I had gone past the BMT display with the Baptist TelNet satellite showing how we were about to begin broadcasting the Gospel so that every person on this earth with a dish antenna could, at least, hear it!! What a wonderful technology and what an opportunity never before seen in the history of Christianity! My small children were fascinated at what they saw!
Now the satellite has been sold to Pat Robertson. My children prefer NOT attending a Southern Baptist church.
Then I went to the Registration area about 30 minutes before the Presidential Election with Adrian Rogers as the CR candidate. Suddenly, church buses rolled up to the door disgourging hundreds of people. I watched as they rushed through the trusting registration lines picking up ballots only. They went in, voted for Adrian as they were told in their Texas churches, and left in the same droves dropping ballot packets and trashing the entrance area!
Every rule about the limited number of messengers from a given church was violated. Rogers was elected. Patterson and Pressler were rejoicing because “they had won.” There was only an “end justifies the means” mantra. All ethics and rules were violated. CR began.
Bold Mission Thrust immediately fell off the scope and was never heard of again. We were pumping an Inerrant Scripture which, just this year, has been admitted does not exist. The “original autographs” excuse is empty because we have non of them! It was all a “Bold Mission Lie and Fantasy!” I can’t believe it has lasted this long, but now it is dying fast.
40 years later we have a distorted approach to sharing the Gospel with Muslims. We have 3 major positions in the Executive Committee / IMB / NAMB vacant with allegations of mis-spent CP funds and massive waste on programs that never came to be. We are having to back up on finances. We can’t send new missionaries. Many churches are taking “Baptist” off their signs because the public does not have a good image of Baptists anymore. We have a special committee called to sort out the mess and try to present a workable approach. Bold Mission Thrust didn’t fail–it was abandoned. Conservative Resurgence has destroyed the good theological education each of our Seminaries used to provide. Many alternative schools have been formed at Duke / Emory / Richmond / Campbell / Mercer Atlanta / etc.
Small churches can no longer trust the student pastors at SEBTS because so much destruction and splitting has taken place all over Eastern NC. Many will not go to SEBTS again, but to the schools above. The SEBTS students have lied their way into formerly trusting small churches to create this attitude of mistrust. Small churches don’t want “king pastors.”
CB will probably call me a liar again, especially if he took his morning dose of Mean Pills. I don’t care because I have a stump to grind tomorrow and I know whose name to put on it!
I hope you sense the spirit of prophetic love I put in these words. It is true. It is accurate. It is meant to call us back to the words of Jesus in Matthew 28:19-20 which I memorized in Sunday School and Royal Ambassadors.
What the heck is an Awana Club anyway????
Do they teach missions and require knowing the names and agencies of all involved in our mission enterprise?
Do we really care about missions anymore?
MODERATOR NOTE:
Though we generally try to allow freedom of expression regarding differing opinions, several recent comments, written by CB Scott and directed at Gene Scarborough, went beyond our stated commenting standard:
“Please do not attack, slander, or malign any individual. If you step outside the bounds of Christian honor and dignity, you will be warned.”
Several other comments, including a reply by Gene Scarborough, made reference to these comments by CB Scott.
Since this is a group blog, once I noticed these comments I tried to get in contact with the other contributors to get their input regarding this situation. At this point, I have only heard back from Rastis, agreeing with my position on this. The rest of the guys have apparently not yet checked their e-mail, or this comment stream, since that time.
In the meantime, I have decided the best thing to do is go ahead and delete all the comments related to this particular incident, and ask that everyone please stick to our stated commenting standards, and try to keep to the topic of the post, and not refer back to the deleted comments.
Thanks,
David Rogers
Gene Scarborough,
Though I certainly do not agree with your view in regard to religious pluralism, and the possibility of eternal salvation for someone who does not actually confess Jesus as Lord (if I am understanding you correctly), nor with your perspective on the Conservative Resurgence, and the events surrounding it, since your comments do not directly violate our commenting standards, I will let them stand as is. However, I would ask you to please do your best to keep your comments on topic and in line with the rest of our commenting standards–which can be seen here:
http://www.sbcimpact.net/standards/
David–
I am in total agreement with the “over the top” way CB addressed me. I am sorry he chose to make me such a target.
I am trying to be honest and prophetic in my observations. Although your Dad was the one elected as the first CR candidate, I see him as an honest and sincere pastor who spoke clearly about his conservative beliefs. Prior to all the politics, his view and that of my father and pastors like him could gladly exist side by side with Autonomy as their reason for agreeing to disagree, yet support Missions together.
Just as your father was a pioneer in mega-church and the first changer of things through appointment on the Commmittee on Committees, my father was the pioneer in Juvenile Rehabilitation ministry. The HMB asked him to become the first missionary to the Juvenile Court in Fulton County (Atlant metro), GA. My father created something very positive out of nothing before it.
Where your father had a consistent Conservative approach to theology, mine had a consistent Moderate approach. He suffered for going to Andover-Newton which was labeled “liberal,” as opposed to Southern which was labeled “conservative.” Despite severe prejudice focused on his coming back South as a single pastor of great intellect, he put it aside and became a “Pioneer” in an area which had no precedent.
Dr. Claude E. Scarborough, my father, taught my by example that you don’t have to put your brains away to be a committeed Christian. I am trying to follow his example. Where I don’t know the mind of God and defer to Him for ultimate judgement on Moslims, I personally believe that our belief in Christ is the basis of true salvation.
Sometimes I play “devil’s advocate” as did my fathe–asking questions to which there is no slick and simple answer. In his days of educaton at Mercer University the big theological issue was Millinialism. He made it less than simple for those who argued for pre/post/a-mallinial theories. He asked question after question to the point his nickname became “Socrates.” That was an honor bestowed to a person who grew up in a super-conservative rural SBC church whose women warned him, “Claude, don’t go to Mercer because they will ruin you!”
He did / they didn’t! They just launched that deep-believing large-minded country boy on a road to be my model of a minister. He ultimately became the Associate Director of Missions for the Atlanta Baptist Association alongside his duties as Director of Juvenile Rehabilitation. Through his witness and listening ear many churches and ministers in Atlanta from 1958-1978 came to seek his counsel whether they were “conservative” or “moderate” or anywhere in between. Daddy didn’t like labels because he suffered from them, and always looked beneath the surface of fellow ministers for points of agreement rather than points of eternal debate and division.
What really matters is the Lamb’s Book of Life–where I am sure your dad and mine are both recorded. They would have had interesting debates with my dad asking similar questions as mine to come up with a reasoned religion and room for Autonomy. Somehow, when your Dad arrived in Heaven, I bet he and my father began discussing those things they could not know on this earth–and now have their arms around one another awaiting our arrive in our “Home Above.”
Thanks for what you are contributing in this discussion. You don’t always take the SBC line, and you also ask good questions–always trying to be fair. Refereeing a bunch of Baptists can be tough!!!
I just pray we will find Autonomy again. What could we be doing today if those of the SBC and CBF could, once more, get together again???
Gene, I have no idea what went on between you and CB, because the comments were deleted before I got home from my travels to read them.
But I would say one thing to you – I think that ultimately, there is a problem in your approach.
You said, “The prime question is: “Just because a Muslim does not sign onto Christianity, is he bound for Hell?” I think the answer is contained in the famous poem, ‘Abu ben Adam.’”
I believe the answers are found in God’s Word, not in poems, and this is an issue on which the Bible speaks clearly. We believe that Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life – no one comes to the Father except through him.”
The answer is found in scripture, not in a poem. You seem like a nice person, but that is outside the boundaries of Christian teaching. We believe that Jesus is the ONLY way for ALL men – regardless of their heritage.
I did not say, “the Baptist Way” is the only way. But Jesus is!
The postmodern way is to assume that all truth is personal. “Jesus is my way, my truth, my life.” That is not the testimony of scripture. Jesus is THE way, THE truth, and THE life.
I’m pretty passionate about the one.
Gene,
Though we certainly have different perspectives, I appreciate the amiable tone of your last comment to me. I prefer to stay out of any particular disagreements CB may have with you (or you with him). There are more appropriate forums for handling that. It is indeed a comforting thought to think of both of our fathers in the presence of the Lord, with their differences reconciled, benefitting from the full knowledge that comes with seeing Him in His glory. In the meantime, it seems to me that the exclusivity of the Christian gospel is the type of point over which it would be very difficult to cooperate in missions if we are not in essential agreement with one another. In any case, I agree that asking questions can be a good thing, provided it is done in a spirit of submission to the Lordship of Christ and His Word, as well as a desire for unity among those who truly know Him.
I’m glad we are on a more amicable track now. Thanks David!
Dave–you might check with David since this is his blog for details. CB and I have tangled before. He was bringing together all our tangles and adding to it some highly derrogatory personal comments. I totally agree they were out of line with the rules of civility by which this blog operates.
I share my part of the blame for giving back, in a little more civil fashion to me, as much as I got, but without personal derision–just reminding him I deal with things in a very concrete way as a Tree Surgeon capable of erasing a large and dangerous tree with unbelievably powerful and destructive machinery.
I know I am not going on the “road most traveled” in my view of the Moslem witnessing problems. I am broadening our outlook that Jesus is the only way by saying–I am comfortable with God doing the ultimate judgement knowing the hearts of each person he has created.
As I was growing up I had a more simple take on this without regard to world history / philosophy / other religions. My problem is with those who have never had a witness about Christ being our Saviour and the central importance of proclaiming, through faith, that Jesus is the Christ. No matter how you make it, the act of trusting Jesus as our Saviour is a faith statement and act.
I would like to think God has provided mankind with more than one approach to salvation and eternal life. The Abou ben Adem poem expresses such a hope.
It is just hard for me to conceive a loving Creator God sentencing his creation of mankind to eternal damnation without our understanding of Him through Christ having been delivered.
What happens, in your opinions, to those who have never heard?
Is it the hard and fast belief we have traditionally espoused, or is there room for our Creator to intervene and give the uninformed multitudes a way to Him without all the elements of Western World theology?
To not allow that opportunity, seems to me, to make us the gatekeepers to Heaven rather than leaving that duty to God, Himself.
I have not been able to come up with a satisfying answer since my college days. The simple answer is just not enough for me. I am confident we have the true way to God and are given a great duty to share it. The “Camel” presentation seems to have more problems than answers as well.
My simple take is that people are won to Christ as they see him in us. Nietche said, “I will believe in your Redeemeer when you show me you are redeemed.” Adolph Hitler and Thomas J.J. Altizer cited this. I was President of the Emory University BSU as a Senior when Altizer did his thing and got the cover of Time Magazine. In Altizer’s case, it was not a simple as the title implied!
The most telling comment in Time was a box which said:
“God is Dead” — signed Nietche
“Nietche is Dead” — signed God
Interestingly enough, regarding the conversion of Muslims, Ravi Zacharias has told some interesting examples and illustrations of Moslems being converted due to dreams in which Jesus appeared and spoke to them, letting them know that He is the true Savior. Also with reference to those who have never heard, I tink it was A.H. Strong who tells of a Hindu or Buddhist being converted by a process of reasoning and when the missionaries came he told them about it. Strong also told of an African tribe at sea on a fishing venture and how a storm moved the chief to call on the unknown God for deliverance, how they received it, and how they amended their lives and a generation or so later, when the missionaries arrived, they said that that was what they believed as they glady embraced the Gospel message. Again, an American Indian in the wilds of the old Northwest territory had a visit from the Great Spirit and was converted. When the early Baptist pioneers arrived in the area, and he volunteered that he had already been converted. He glady submitted to baptism, and he became a baptist ministr and pastored the First Baptist Church of Wabash Indiana for a long period of time. Cf. Stanley Phillips, History of Primitive Baptists in Indiana, Master’s thesis, Ball State University.(date,1960s?).
Civil discourse, or courtesy, is implied by I cors.13:5, “Love does not behave itself unseemly,” the positive spin being that love is courteous. Playing the devil’s advocate does not mean that we have to be abrasive like him. I am always suggesting to Gene to tone it down. He can be down right civil and compassionate, when he forgets that abrasive stuff. I think we are getting ready of a Third Great Awakening for which I have been praying these 37 years. Three of the greatest evnts in World History and Christian History occurred in America, namely, the First and Second Great Awakenings and the launching of the Great Century of Missions. God grant the Third Great Awakening.
abulydia,
If you (or any others) would like a copy of the full paper, send me an email at dcoleman17@gmail.com and I will email you a copy. It may take me a while to get back to you because I will need to make a few minor edits to the paper before I distribute it widely, and I’m very busy for the next few weeks.
Blessings,
Doug
Gene said: “Dave–you might check with David since this is his blog for details.”
Actually, sbcIMPACT “belongs” jointly to all of the contributors. Since I was the first to catch the apparent violation of our commenting standards, though, I went ahead and made an executive decision in representation of the rest. I have directed Dave and the other contributors to a site where they can access the deleted comments.
Very gracious of you David.
We don’t need to hide anything with an “Executive Session”–just keep the public stuff clean for the many who have no idea how deep SBC animosity can run when left un-monitored.
I wonder if the Disciples ever had such heated discussions with the “Sons of Thunder” involved??
Gene,
re:52-53
When you talk about Muslims not coming to Christianity, there are a number of ways to understand that. Are you saying that they do not have to become part of christendom [call them selves Christians] or are you saying that they can find salvation apart from Christ?
Also, are you affirming a kind of dualism: that Jesus is for us and is true and Muhammad is for them and is true?
Gene, Romans 1 tells us that all are guilty, even if they have not heard Christ. Its pretty clear. I am afraid that your statement is telling. “I would like to think God…” I’m not trying to be mean, just direct. We do not get to make God what we would like to think he is. He is revealed and we must deal with the God of revelation. Again, you said, “It is just hard for me to conceive a loving Creator God sentencing his creation…” God is not just hard for us to conceive – he is impossible. His ways are higher than ours and his thoughts beyond ours.
Our job is not to understand all about him or to mold him to be what we would like. Our job is to deal with the God revealed in Scripture – the one true God of Creation. That God claims to be “Most High” – and says that “there is no other.”
One more thought: If those who have never heard of Christ escape condemnation, then isn’t it a horrible act of hatred for us to share at all. If we never tell them, God will accept them. If we tell them about Christ, then we condemn them to hell.
If it is true that those who have not heard about JEsus get to go to heaven, then we should immediately suspend all evangelism and missions, right?
Tim
Re 54-55
I think what would separate Greeson from a C5 position is that I don’t think those who advocate C5 would be comfortable with modifiers “completed” “messianic” “isahi,” etc. added to the word “Muslims.” Since the IMB trustees are officially against C5, and since Greeson is now a very public character these days, I think there has to be some kind of distinction for them–and one that is beyond mere semantics.
Just for kicks and giggles….
Do you consider the terms “completed Jew” and “Messianic Jew” to be legitimate terms in that context to describe a new believer?
Gene,
re:69
I heard someone talk about Jesus’ recipe for disciple making which included a tax collector and a zealot was a good recipe to have 11 disciples…
Thanks for the good and deep questions / observations. I’m not into writing a systematic theology, but I will try to share honestly my thinking. By the way, I am still struggling with how God can be righteous and at the same time merciful to those innocent people who simply have not heard or read out Christian view of Salvation.
I’m sure any answer could not be simple because life and faith are not simple. Those who want to make is simply “believe Jesus is the Christ or burn in Hell” have a far too judgmental approach–and often put themselves in the place of God when it comes to final judgment.
First, remember, Peter and Paul were dealing with professing their faith to unbelievers. They were totally committed and gave little room for doubt. They do not address the issue of Muslim belief vs. Christian belief in a detailed way.
When Dave cites the “all are guilty” phrase, it could also apply to those who believe, yet have little love for their fellowman nor other believers who take a different view of theology than they do. The “joy of salvation” is used far more in the NT than “salvation” by itself! Also Jesus and many believers in the biblical writings speak of a “peace that passes understanding” in conjunction with a commitment to Christ.
Is it possible that someone who walked the aisle, but has no love, forgiveness, nor peace to be just a bound for Hell as some want to believe an un-repentant Moslim is?
Is it also possible that a satisfied Moslim like Abou ben Adam who loves his fellow man could enter Heaven alongside one who believes Jesus is the Prophet rather than Mohammud?
The above questions come from my “God is impossible to conceive” take like Dave says. I don’t know of any theocratic system which has a God who accepts anything and everything. I think that is a consistent aspect of any culture’s concept of God–judgement. No culture believes its member having no concept of God is a whole and complete member of society.
It is my personal belief that we have the priviledge of knowing the most about God through our belief that Jesus is his Son and Messiah. In other words, we have the most accurate picture of God above and beyond any other religion. It is our job not to distort it by looking down our noses in arrogance. We should be compassionate toward those who have never heard and make room for God to be any human’s ultimate judge rather than us.
Now, here is another side of the issue: What about the person who chooses not to participate in organized religion due to what he has observed about people claiming Christianity, but living with constant arrogance / hatred / lack of forgiveness toward those who wrong them?
Have we, ourselves, by our actions kept people from committing to Christ? As Nietche said, “I will believe in your Redeemer when you show me you are redeemed.” Could we condemn ourselves to eternal punishment for driving people away from God? Is there such a thing as “religionless Christianity?” It is another way of saying people who become involved in organized religion sometimes let religious practices get between them and Christ. This is my concern as churches take the name Baptist off the church sign due to our recent public perception of killing one another in the name of Conservative Resurgence.
I don’t believe anyone can find true Salvation apart from the belief that Jesus is our earthly picture of God and is his Son. I can conceive of a person finding God and being Saved from the evil aspects of humanity. Take Ghandi, for example. He was a godly man who was a Hindu by faith. He knew of Jesus and used his peace and forgiveness approach to model a way to freedom from Imperial England. Our British ancestors were arrogantly Christian believers, but the way they treated their subjects was often inhumane.
Would Ghandi meet us in Heaven when we get there?
I do not like a dualism because that implies equal rank for Mohammud who did not claim to be God Incarnate, to the best of my knowledge. I am rather ignorant of the details of mystical eastern religions. It would seem many in America who are turned off by organized religion Christianity have turned to eastern mysticism, but I do not find it necessary or attractive to me. I just try to live as close to God as did my father. He practiced EVERYTHING he preached as he lived during the week. He was not perfect, but, as I witnessed his life as his son, he came as close as anyone I have ever known. If more people were like him in church, he would not have gotten fired nor would I.
The problems we both had with organized Southern Baptist churches had to do with too many in leadership positions doing it more for business and social reasons than a lived faith in Christ. This is the main problem I have with Conservative Resurgence–too much meaness has been done under its banner. This is also true of pre-CR folks as well. Sometimes we have been more political than religious. My dad suffered insults to his character and faith because he graduated from Andover-Newton and was labeled “liberal” by those who didn’t even know him! They were pumping their Southern graduates as the only reliable ministers available to a large Sourthern FBC.
Some good inspiration as we start the week and continue good discussion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5ddoyfn6g4
Well, if I had to choose between two, I must say:
Give me the Camel Method any day over the Scarborough Method.
Thanks for being nice, C.B. We can always agree to disagree without the hostility or evil words.
Welcome back. I still love and forgive you!
Just please don’t provoke me or others to wrath anytime in the near future. I pray you will find peace and joy in your approach to being a forgiven sinner just like me.
Gene,
I think the questions you ask in comment #74 and other similar comments are answered in the “solas” of the Protestant Reformation. We are saved (justified) by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. And, we know this through Scripture alone. That is, our beliefs on the exclusivity of the gospel are not based on religious traditions, personal speculation, or cultural preferences, but rather our understanding of divine revelation, which we believe to be clear enough (perspicuity) to not be misled or mistaken on these issues if we approach them with an open heart and submissive mind to the will of God.
Thank you so much Gene. I do not think I could bear it if I did not know you forgave me for my propensity toward provoking people of your persuasion.
It is just in my pitifully, mean nature to be provoked toward provoking to wrath folks who write things of the “specific substance” of which you have such a masterful proclivity.
Gene,
One more thing. If we could be saved by our good works and ethical values, folks like Abou ben Adam and Gandhi would make it a long time before I would. But that’s not what God, through Jesus, in His Word, has revealed to us.
I enjoyed the post. I have had a lot of the same thoughts of the years as well. As per your question should we refer to God as Allah when speaking to Muslims, I would argue absolutely yes. Allah is simply a rephrasing of Ellah or “the God.” Every major translation of the Bible in arabic refers to the god as Allah. In the arab christian community, it is extremely rare to meet an evangelical, catholic or orthodox believer who calls god anything else other than Allah, and they usualy have some fruity theology to go along with it. Along side this arabic speaking muslims already know that Christians disagree with their view of Allah. The same goes for for arab Christians who affirm Allah does x not y. The english speaking community has mistakenly taken this as a contextualization discussion. When you use Allah in discussion, prayer and worship you are simply using what Arab believers did long before Muhammed was ever born.
All the best, – Andrew
Gene,
I am having trouble coming up with a reply as you are using some words and concepts interchangeably so I will just take a different approach.
I think it is important that we affirm that Christ is unique and exclusive. No redemption takes place without the cross.
Acts 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.” God’s mercy and justice can only be understood in light of the wrath of God demonstrated in the cross.
I don’t believer someone has to call themselves “christian” which is a C4 position [I think the C-scale is a bad way of talking about contextualization, but since it is somewhat common lingo....]. I also affirm that there are many people who are in the various traditions of Christendom [Catholic, Baptist, Etc.] who are unregenerate.
Concerning truth in other religions:
Claims from other faiths which are coherent with Christian teachings should not intimidate us. For instance, there are many religions which would affirm monotheism. All religions affirm most of the 10 commandments in some form. Most of them affirm something about Jesus which is true, but incomplete [Jesus was a prophet and a good teacher, so we have a point of agreement, however, we also know that he is much more than merely a prophet or teacher]. All truth is God’s truth. That is not to say that all religions are equally true or that all religions are valid. Simply we do have some points of agreement. This, IMO, is due to what Corduan calls “original monotheism.” If we follow the biblical narrative, then at certain points the entire world was privy to the one true God. Their cultures and religions still reflect certain elements of him [see Don Richardson "eternity in their hearts"] though these images have not been preserved well and lack true salvific content due to their corruption [they can serve as bridges, "redemptive analogies" as Richardson calls them].
That said, I do not think we can/should affirm other faith’s holy books as “God breathed” and I do not thing we can/should affirm their gurus, Buddhas, prophets, etc as revelatory prophets in the sense of 2 Peter 1:21 “For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.”
I tend to be open minded for the circles I run in [see my post on Lot
], but I think it is important to have a baseline for when I foray off the reservation.
Man–I had almost finished my post when, for some crazy reason the thing cut off and went back to the main article! Moral of my story: if you own and use a computer it will make you cuss!
Lets try again.
David–
I understand what you are saying about Sola Scriptorum. However Martin Luthur was directly responding to what he perceived as a corrupted Roman Catholicism with much Western thinking and church Sacriment holding people hostage to obedience to the Church.
Now we live in a jet propelled world where cluture clashes occur in our own country as immigrants bring their culture and religious traditions with them. In 24 hours we can travel quickly to the uttermost parts of the earth and we are exposed to many more cultural dilimmas than was Martin Luthur.
What I am asking is whether the God of Grace, Himself, might allow for wider ways to Him than we presuppose. Just like you, I was raised in a Preacher’s house next door to FBC Tryon, NC. As a child I preached to my teddy bears just like my daddy did next door.
As we moved to Atlanta a wider world became apparent. There we find whole areas where a sign in English does not exist. Around Doraville it is all in Korean on the businesses!
In this context, it came to me that God might be bigger and more inclusive than our presumptions in baptistland. I would appreciate some more inclusive thinking rather than making me stick with the traditional line. While I honor it, I cannot help but think God is not just kept in a traditional box.
I would refer you to the fascinating stories shared by Jim Willingham in comment 67. They reflect a longing God trying to reach out to mankind in other cultures and preceeding the direct witness of a Christian Missionary! This makes more sense to me.
C.B.–I note the alliteration associated with your comment. Is it genuine of a tongue-in-cheek rebuke implying I am not being genuine?
It has the same alliteration for which Leo Green was famous at SEBTS while I studied under him in 1967-70. Anyone claiming our school was “liberal” did not know him and some other fine professors. Many of his students rushed out the door to their student church ready to share great alliterated points Dr. Green had just provided them.
I am enough of a rebel that I refused to parrot them back in his tests. We were supposed to be at a graduate level of study rather than the “parrot it back” level of undergraduate education. I guess that’s why if made “C’s” under him rather than “A’s” under other professors.
I just want to make an “A” in apology with you and appreciate where you come from. Just let’s both try to remember Jesus’ admonition to “love one another as I have loved you.”
Rastis–
I’m not familiar with any of the “C” stuff. You will have to educate me.
I think I expressed my position pretty clearly in the above. If not, speak to that which does not address your thinking and I will try to respond appropriately.
What I am reading all around indicates as somewhat “Gnostic” approach in our SBC arena. By this I mean the requirement of “knowing” takes precedence over “having faith” in God and his ability to work beyond the concepts of man as well as “in spite of them.”
In addition “faith” is used as a verb in the NT. “To faith it” means to me that when knowledge is short or inadequate we move one step at a time actively pursuing God and others almost without words. If you read the account of the day of Pentecost, it says people “understood in their own language.” It does not say they spoke in each person’t language!
That is the sense of communication of which I speak. We understand one another despite verbal and definition barriers.
Too much of Baptist dialogue which has turned to monologue since the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship formed, has focused more on theology than missions. For this reason we are at a plateau and in need of sending 600+ missionaries out with no funds to do it. When there was more faith and trust and less debate of theological minutia, we succeeded and grew.
You can debate words and concept ad nauseum, but it is more important to me to walk together in love and faith than to submit to someone’s “understanding” which must be repeated with exactly the same words or “we cannot walk together.”
I hope you understand what I am trying to say: Give God room to be God.
Not even Martin Luthur, Paul, Peter, Church Fathers, or the writers of BF&M 2000 will ever capture or control God with words. I’m willing to trust him to take care of ultimate judgement on anyone from any religious or social place where they grew. At the same time, there is no substitute for Faith that Jesus is God’s Son and a full revelation of Him to us. The major part of that revelation, to me, is to have faith / walk together in love / share our secret for living through word and deed to those who notice we are different and want some of what we have.
Gene,
If you abandon Sola Scriptura, you leave yourself open to practically any line of thinking. You also leave yourself, as a professed Christian, with a very shaky epistemological underpinning. As a matter of fact, as I understand it, at that point, you have “sold the company store.”
Now, if you want to talk about how to interpret correctly specific passages of Scripture, and the reasons in favor of one interpretation over another one, I am all for that. I have never pretended to be infallible in my interpretation, and certainly am open to being taught by the observations of others.
But, if not, we are continually going to get stuck in our dialogue at the point of Sola Scriptura.
Gene Scarborough,
I do not doubt you being “genuine” in what you are saying here. I wholly believe you to be expressing your “heart felt” convictions here. And frankly, I am more than glad you are free to do so on IMPACT!. Because, in you being able to do so, you more firmly convince me of the correctness of my “primary” biblical convictions expressed earlier relating to your past and present heart felt convictions. Therefore, please continue. Let no petty response I might make here impede you in any way.
Gene Scarborough,
You have proven that you have bought into the culture in which we all live. We live in a culture where “feelings” drive our belief. However, as Christians we are not driven by “feelings” but by “faith”. Jesus is the source, course, and force of our faith. Our culture, because of “feelings” desire to redefine Jesus as a prophet, realign Jesus as a partner, confine Jesus to one people, or consign Jesus to the past. We are in a culture that is offended when one presents the absolute that Jesus is Lord alone. However, remember that some things are more important than the fear of offending. Eternity is in the balance.
Let’s say that you are right and I am wrong. All roads lead to Heaven and I am saying they do not. What is lost? Nothing! I am going to heaven, the Muslim is going to Heaven, Ghandi has already beat us there and everyone is in a state of bliss. When I get there God will show me that I was wrong and I should have been less dogmatic about his Son Jesus.
However, let’s say that you are wrong and I am right. Then that means the very people you claim to love, which I do not doubt your claim, end up burning in a literal Hell. They are there because you, and people that believe like you, would not be dogmatic that Jesus is the only way. This entire debate is not about a belief system it is about heaven and hell.
Blessings,
Tim
If there was one cure for cancer, do you think we would hear people complain that there ought to be more than one cure? Isn’t one cure enough?
Instead of complaining that there is only one way to the Father, we should be rejoicing that God has provided a way back to Him, when we neither wanted it nor deserved it.
Bill, that comment goes in my “Hall of Fame” – on my best comments ever list.
Bill,
Your comment shows the GOD revealed himself in JESUS CHRIST and the HOLY SPIRIT and NONE OTHER.
Wayne
Maybe Gene could arrange to meet some of you fellows for a weekend in Nashville. Get Rooms at some agreed on hotel there and have Robert Parham find a church in the area where yall could have a group viewing and discussion of
http://www.differentbookscommonword.com
All of you need to get a copy of the DVD; it will advance this discussion by light years as well as a reading of Charles Kimball’s When Religion Becomes Evil.
As it stands now you aren’t much further along than Day 3 of the Conference on Biblical Inerrancy in 1987 at Ridgecrest.
Google up the latest story on Anne Graham Lotz, Saturday, in fact in the greenvillenews where Anne says her theology there isn’t much more than a hairs difference in her theology and that of her Dad.
Does that mean that Billy when all is said and done really does not agree with BFM 2000 on women called to preach?
This Inerrancy stuff, even a time honored construct like Sola Scriptura, is bogus, was lowered to a flim flam operation as it was used in the conservative resurgence, what Gene and I would also call the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention.
I’m sorry but the witness of too many virtuous folks who let their intelligence, conviction and Baptist roots flower; folks with the Highest regard for Scripture shout out what I just asserted in the above paragraph.
In the meantime, it is interesting to watch Gene engage you fellows.
Hope things otherwise are well with you all.
Sfox
Anne Graham Lotz on BFM 2000; here is the latest.
Quoting the Sat Feb 27 Greenville News lengthy feature on her upcoming weekend in Greenville, home of Bob Jones and Cliff Barrows.
quoteLotz laughs when asked if she faces resistance from some fundamentalist Christians who believe women shouldn’t be preachers. She once had a group of men turn their backs to her when she began to preach.
“Oh sure,” she said. “But I don’t pay any attention to it. It doesn’t keep me from doing a thing.”
“People can disagree about that issue and I just agree to disagree with them,” she said. “And I know when I stand before God I’m going to give an account to him for what I believe he’s called me to do, not for what somebody else said he was calling me to do or not calling me to do.”
One of Graham’s three daughters, Lotz has held Just Give Me Jesus revivals around the world. She is the author of 10 books, including her latest release, “The Magnificent Obsession.”
She says “there wouldn’t be a hair’s worth of difference” between her theological perspective and that of her famous father.
She spent several days snowed in with him at the mountaintop house where she grew up in Montreat, N.C., recently, sharing a time she said was “so special.”
“He has a hard time hearing and seeing and walking,” she said, “but his heart is strong, his mind is clear, he’s a total blessing to be with.”
Of her upcoming visit to Greenville, Lotz said, “I’m so looking forward to coming because it’s like coming home.”
][/quote]
http://www.greenvilleonline.com/article … -Lo-Center
Stephen,
You say: “This Inerrancy stuff, even a time honored construct like Sola Scriptura, is bogus.”
If that’s where you come down, there really is a continental divide between you and me. We can talk about stuff like women preachers till we’re blue in the face. But, if we can’t agree that the Bible is the bottom-line source of authority, we are not going to have a basis to discuss anything else.
I pray God blesses you, and leads you into His truth. But, if we can’t agree on this fundamental question, I don’t see what is the value of discussing all the other side issues.
I’m sorry but the witness of too many virtuous folks who let their intelligence, conviction and Baptist roots flower; folks with the Highest regard for Scripture shout out what I just asserted in the above paragraph.
If they claim, as you do, that inerrancy was a crock then they most certainly do NOT have the highest regards for scripture but are in fact worthy of whatever happened to them in the CR.
In Christianity truth flows from the foundation of God’s word. Cascading down from this are arguments such as: (a) Do we have texts now which are “adequate” in preserving the original autographs — given that those original texts are lost? (b) Are translations sufficiently accurate to allow have texts in our language (which for many of us is English) which communicates what God intends for us to know? (c) Is it possible to interpret this text so that an open minded person can come up with at least the essence of God’s plan?
This is the chain: “accuracy” [I won't use the term inerrancy], Inspiration, Interpretation.
I’m a Christian because:
[1] I hold that the Bible is the source of knowledge and it is possible, in principle, for me to have some clue about God’s program.
AND
[2] I accept God’s plan as described in the Bible.
To me this is “epistomologically” [spelling?] robust. At least is is as robust as it is going to get so I’m going to do the best I can given my current situation.
My view of God is not contingent upon cultural trappings, the belief or non-belief of non-Christians, or whatever is or is not going on with the Southern Baptist Convention, or whatever some preacher says or doesn’t say.
Whether God is or is not “fair” by implementing his program is up to him. God is not adjusting his program based upon feedback from me.
My walk with God and my salvation is not conditioned upon what anyone else does or what God has in mind for them.
I’m thankful that God has a robust program. I thankful that even though the conduit of information flow between Him and me has only limited bandwidth at least it is adequate for its purpose.
Roger Simpson Oklahoma City
And Roger, that works on a (C)itizens (B)and radio also.
Goodness gracious, guys! Can we not disagree with someone, without having to treat them like this?
What if someone who was beginning to seek Christ saw this? Would it help them along on their path to repentance, or be a stumbling block?
Joe,
I, with full knowledge of the fact that I would be censored, posted what I did earlier on this blog post just as I was censored by Tim Rogers two days earlier for what I posted on SBC TODAY. LET IT BE KNOWN THAT TIM ROGERS WILL CENSOR FRIEND AND FOE ALIKE WITH EQUAL AND FAST JUDGMENT ACCORDING TO THE RULES OF POSTING HE AND THE REST OF THE TEM HAVE ESTABLISHED.
With that in mind, let me admonish you as a comrade not to call people “ingrown toe nails” as it garners compassion toward the one you identify as a toe nail and can condemn you to Blog Town Jail. But if you wind up there tonight, see if you can count the times I have carved my name in the walls over the last four years and let me know. I have lost count myself.
David
Here’s the thing–Gene has gone on more than one blog comment thread and claimed Mormons are real Christians–hence his comment about many ways to God. I’m not sure how to answer someone who makes such an outlandish claim like that in a manner that doesn’t end up sounding like “Shut up til you know how dumb you sound”. Or maybe it’s that I don’t try. 8^)
David:
I agree we should not be disagreeable. The validity of God’s message stands independent of us.
I see no reason to fight because this is not going to help me or anyone else as they seek God’s will.
Putting person “A” down is not going to benefit person “B”.
David,
I do not contest your censor of my comments last night, but what is wrong with the Camel comment?
Joe,
I am not saying you can’t disagree publicly with what he is saying. I most certainly do. But, as Christians, we should show respect for people, even if the ideas they are advocating are “off the wall” from our point of view.
Please take into consideration what I said above:
“What if someone who was beginning to seek Christ saw this? Would it help them along on their path to repentance, or be a stumbling block?”
CB,
What is wrong with the camel comment?
It was indeed humorous, and likely made in a spirit of good-natured jesting. But, in the dynamic we have entered into, it came across to me as “piling on.”
I love the general spirit here at sbcIMPACT, and the freedom we have to disagree with each other with respect.
Please, let’s not let this get out of hand.
Well Vol, do you want the top bunk or the bottom?
David has sent us both off to jail tonight. I can understand it with me being from Alabama, but he from Tennessee as are you. Seems like he would have given you a little break.
OK David. I understand. I though you might just be some Old Hippie, Hard Rocker who hated songs by Ray Stevens.
Another night in jail won’t hurt me I guess. Vol and I can talk about SEC football and hatch up new posts for him on SBC TODAY.
Thought I would add a little bit about the depth and clarity of the word of God. I do solemnly affirm that I hold to verbal inspiration, inerrancy, and infallibility. I almost got flunked out of the D.Min program due to a paper I wrote on the Lausanne Covenant (Billy Graham’s conference in ’74 on the article on inspiration due to the professor being so upset that he gave me a c- without any ciriticism). In any case, that still does not mean you folks are recognizing the depth of the word of God with which you are dealing. REMEMBER, IF THE BOOK IS INSPIRED BY OMNISCIENCE, THEN IT MUST REFLECT THE INTELLIGENCE COMMESNURATE WITHTHAT FACT WHICH, INDEED, IT DOES. A friend fishing in a mountain stream in Va. thought the stream was 2-3 feet deep as he could see the grains of sand rolling along the bottom. He almost drowned as it was 18-20′ deep. So with the word of God, even when you think you understand it. I did 6 years of research in church history, looking especially to the issue of biblial beliefs and wrote an M.A. thesis in American Social & Intellectual History tracing the history of the doctrine of ministerial qualifications from 1750-1850. What I learned is that the nature of the mental constructs is that they are two-sided and apparently contradictory in order to set up a tension in the human mind in order for believer to be balanced, flexible, creative, and magnetic. Now how could they in the 1700s, when they believed in verbal inspiration, inerrancy and infallibility, have eldresses in Sandy Creek BAptist Church – which they did? And these elderesses got up and exhorted men without the slightest usurping of authority? And why did Morgan Edwards after reporting on this phenomenon in 1771 write an article 2-3 yrs. later justifying the idea of women in ministy? Could there be a depth to the word of God that the believers in verbal inspiration, inerrancy, and infallibility have yet to discern? I went to the SBC and voted for the Bible long before most of you all writing on this blog were even born. I have been sneered at and called ignorant for believing in the virgin birth. All of which is kind of funny as I was once an atheist and doubted the whole 9 yards,no God, etc.
I study subjects for years and read everyting I can get my hands on that bears on the issue. My library is about 12-20,000 volumes. One of the things I have learned is that some who claim to believe the Bible is the word of God prove they don’t by later events, while some who don’t seem to believe really do and prove italso by later events. We are Baptists who believe in reigious liberty. We argue and fuss, but we treat one another with respect evenwhen we don’t like the other fellow’s views. I might despise your view, but I will fight for you to hold it…that’s what Rhode Island and the American Revolution were all about.
James the Ancient,
You said:
” I went to the SBC and voted for the Bible long before most of you all writing on this blog were even born.”
Are you actually over 100 years old. If so, were present when Alabama won the Rose Bowl. I didn’t see that one and I would certainly like to hear about it first hand. Now as to the votes on the Bible, I was there the first time David’s Papa was voted in as president.
CB,
You will notice that, as is right now, neither you, Vol, or Joe are “in jail” yourselves, just the comments that I considered out of line.
If we all could just mend our ways, there would be no need to send anyone to “jail.” We really don’t like having to do that.
Also, behind the scenes, the rest of the contributors and I are talking over how to best handle this.
Brothers,
This is an excellent post and the conversation relevant to it has been delightful. The contributors at sbcIMPACT! would like to ask you to keep comments relevant to the topic of the post so that we can avoid closing the comment section to those who have questions or comments related to the post.
Peace to you all,
From the Middle East
FTME,
Is it you or Strider who is no longer working under the auspices of the IMB?
FTME,
The reason I asked is because if you are the one who is no longer with the IMB and you still or did you ever employ the CM in your ministry?
A second question is: Why does the CM often draw debate and the FAITH method of evangelism seems to draw no criticism whatsoever?
FTME, don’t worry. I am not going to debate war with your or rag on you in any way.
So you can answer without fear.
I guess I must be James the Ancient one, so I will try to reply. My first SBC was either in ’59 or ’61 (I forget which), and I was present at the SBC in ’63, when the conservatives went, thinking they were voting for the Bible. I remember sharing a room with an elderly brother from New Mexico whose church as he said had sent him to the convention to save the convention for the Bible. I attended several times in the ’70s and in the eighties. In several instances in the ’80s and in ’90 I paid my own expenses to go and vote.
While I did not always approve of all the views of the representatives for whom I voted,I did vote for the Book and why not? I had seen its power in a miserable shrecropper’s home in Arkansas, a power that could transform a hellish situation into one of peace and tranquility. I also lived to see people who supposedly believed the Bible use it as an excuse to dislay the most malignant hatred for others – not realizing that their very attitude was often a betrayal of what they supposedly advocated.
The preachers who turned their backs on Anne Graham Lotz surely did not realize how sadly their conduct cast a poor shadow upon I Cors.13:5, “love does not behave itself unseemly,” the positive spin of which is, “love is courteous,” to say the least.
I know of a Southern Baptist woman (one of her sons was a personal friend of mine) who knocked on 10,000 doors in the St. Louis area, a zealous soul winner who was an avid student of the Bible. Later she felt the call to minister and founded a church in another city and turned it over to Southern Baptists, when she retired due to age and ill-health. She was a Cherokee as were her husband and children. I never got to hear her preach, but I wish I could have, knowing her godly character as I did.
I call attention to the issue to remind conservtives that though we believe the Bible that does not mean our interpretatiosn are necessarily infallible. Mr. Scarborough’s approach is colored by his education in a more skeptical approach, but he has confidence in the Bible and in the Christ of the Bible enough that it is a mistake to let his abrasive remarks divert one’s attention from his more Christ-like comments. His response to Mr. Rogers and that gentleman’s return regarding their fathers being in Heaven should remind all of us to honor our Lord by the way we deal with one another. And I believe we will.
I have a very high regard for Scripture, its truths and time tested authority.
What is “Bogus” is the way Inerrancy was used as a wedge issue poltically to take over the SBC. I think Harold Bloom was spot on when he said in the American Religion and I paraphraseA: The Tragedy in the Southern Baptist convention was a purely politically driven agenda masquerading as religious conviction.
That is my truth for what happened in the 1980′s in the SBC.
As for inerrancy, in addition to the 1987 conference on Inerrancy where by Day three Clark Pinnock had proven for all except the most stubborn it was a bogus issue; in addition to that how do you get Inerrancy from a Committee meeting.
Exhibit A:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/18/books/review/18HITCHET.html?pagewanted=all&position=
With the name of God, Peace be unto you. I think some of the people commenting here would do well to learn about Pastor Rick Warren’s recent speech at the Islamic Society of North America.
You could also learn allot from John Gilchrist, who is a top Christian apologist and he was debating Muslims like Deedat and Yusuf Buccas when allot of these self styled “Muslim debators” were going through puberty.
The man has recently done a very excellent series of debates in South Africa recently with Shabir Ally. He has a very excellent article I would challenge anyone to read and comment on.
http://thegrandverbalizer19.blogspot.com/2009/05/christian-evangelist-admits-allah-is.html By the way if my post gets moderated I can understand that a Christian may not wish to link to my blog as I am a Muslim and write many articles and blogs entries critical of both Christian and Muslim methods.
So if this gets moderated you can simply take the article (or what you see that is beneficial) and than delete my link so as not to give “support to the enemy.”
Here is just an interesting snippet from Dr. Gilchrist article: ‘Charity or Militancy’.
“We need to return to Paul’s sermon on the Areopagus for a final assessment of this question. (All Christians intending to evangelize Muslims should read through this sermon very carefully – it is a model of a correct Christian approach in a cross-cultural context).
Twice in his message Paul appealed to pagan writings to support his contention that the “unknown god” whom the Athenians worshiped was the same God he was now proclaiming to them. The relevant passage reads as follows:
“Yet he is not far from each one of us, for ‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your poets have said, ‘For we are indeed his offspring’. Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, a representation by the art and imagination of man”.Acts 17:27-29.
“In him we live” and we are “his offspring”, the Greek poets said, and Paul unreservedly applied these references to the God whom he was proclaiming, the God who raised Jesus from the dead(Acts 17.31). Yet they were originally both applied to Zeus, the supreme god of the pagan Greeks and known to the Romans as Jupiter.
I would also caution those of you going into the mission field to preach to us Muslims that the pendulum swings both ways. I have also written in my blog about Muslim hypocricy and inconsistency in not allowing the Christians in Malaysia to use the word ‘Allah’ in the Bible which they have been doing for quite some time.
This is just the warning Dr. Gilchrist gave back in the early 90s! He warned militant Christians that if you make distance between God and Allah you may make it difficult for Christians to identify with Allah true; but at the same time you will make it difficult for Muslims to identify with the God you are preaching, and thus conversion will continue to be a struggle.
This last part will seem shrill to many of you but here is my thoughts to you as a Muslim. You might get some kind of high off converting people to Islam who come from war torn nations and suffer from poverty, but isn’t it more gratifying to win people for Christ who actually thought about Christian theology and doctrine and found the Christian argument to be superior and Islam to be wanting?
You would think so, but only God knows whats is in the breast of man.
Peace be unto you.
CB you surprise me- You are an optimist after all! No, I am still with the IMB and not looking to do anything else for a long time to come.
Dr. James, that is a very gracious comment. Thank you for that.
Concerning the CAMEL- was someone talking about the CAMEL?- I have only this to add. In the end, we are only discussing objections to how the CAMEL is presented in a book and online. The actual practitioners of Muslim Evangelism are not guilty of any of the supposed heresy recorded in the blogs. In a conference I was at last year I met with 160 IMB workers who were reaching Muslims. Most in the Arab speaking world did not use CAMEL but most in Asia did. But when I say they used it I should qualify that they used some part of it. Even Kevin G who was there rarely if ever uses the whole ‘formula’. All consider the CAMEL as a bridge and as one guy working in South East Asia said, ‘It is a rickety bamboo bridge that you want to use but get off of as fast as possible!’ As is pointed out in the post the CAMEL is not an evangelistic presentation. It is used simply to get those who are deceived and trapped in darkness a chance to look to the light. As Paul says in 2 Corinthians, “We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God.” Islam and the Koran are a ‘lofty opinion’ keeping people in darkness. Salvation will come to those trapped by it when we man up and are courageous enough to go into that darkness and rescue them. That is what the CAMEL is an attempt to do. That is what Jesus did for us.
I just read Jonathon who posted before me. Greetings friend. No, you are not the enemy, but never fear even if you were, as is apparent in this comment stream, we don’t treat our enemies as badly as our friends! Your comment has much grace and will not be deleted. The debate over the use of ‘Allah’ for God in Arabic speaking regions only happens in the US. On the field there is no debate- just a bunch of language students thankful to learn the word their host culture uses. I hope you would not find many ‘militant’ Muslim evangelist among my colleagues. We long to show the love of God in all that we do and say and demonstrate by our lives the freedom found in Christ Jesus.
Mr. Dupree,
I am not up on every method of presentation. And I am sure I am not much good at formal debate like many. But I have lived or worked in a lot of places before and after becoming a follower of Christ.
Maybe we could get together someday and I would be most glad to hear your life story and share with you mine. My life story and what I have learned from the Bible gives me every confidence to affirm the Good Story of Jesus Christ as the Son of the Living God who lived, on this earth, as the God-man, died for my sin according to the eternal plan of God the Father and by the power of the Holy Spirit He (Jesus) rose again giving absolute evidence that His atonement for my sin was completely sufficient to save sinful men such as I.
I have been given opportunity to share my story and how it intersected with the Good Story of Jesus Christ with more than one follower of Islam through the years. Some found it interesting and interacted in various ways. Of course some had no desire to hear my story and I completely understand that.
So, I am here in Birmingham, Al. If you find yourself down this way, give the Birmingham Baptist Associational Office a call and they can put you in touch with me in short order. And lunch is on me.
cb
In the Name of God, Peace be unto you.
That was very gracious of you at cb scott. An Alabama lunch! Well I have never been one to turn down southern cooking or hospitality so when I’m down that way count me in. I am also not going to detract from your story or being unjust to you atleast intentionally in the least.
I have read McDowell, C.S. Lewis, watch the presentations done by William Lane Craig, Licona, among the plethora of others. Have watched and listened to testimony of Muslims who have become Christians and vice versa. I am aware of the various hotly contested theological issues among Christians as well. I will say that I am convinced of my position.
Which brings me to an issue I have among fellow Muslims. I have seen Muslims treat each other in a very horrible fashion just because they are not convinced of the other person’s view. I think that we do presentations and share the best we can and ultimatley we leave everything in the hands of God.
But when I hear you talk to me cb scott I feel something good. I genuinely do. My heart is not made hard but what you offer and the way you ‘walk in Christ’ as you may put it.
But if one looks at the blogs and comments and some of the things being said like ‘bomb mecca’, ‘kill their kids’, ‘dirty …..< insert fav curse word. I mean my goodness this is just as bad if not worse than radical Muslims. Why I would say worse is because if you proclaim to be truly upon the truth than act upon it.
He who lives by the sword dies by the sword. We as Muslims are currently undergoing a huge theological and cultural battle among ourselves (keep in mind about 1.2 billion people). We are fighting an uphill battle against radicals (who though small in number are vocal and well funded).
I will tell you this, so far the people I have seen among Christians who are most loving and sharing of the Gospel are those who are Arminian or lean Arminian that Jesus died for 'all'.
The people I see as war like and aggressive and have this air of spiritual superiority because they are 'the saints of God pre eternally saved' are those who are hyper calvinist.
I hope for the sake of sincerity and truth to tell you this, if traditional Islam cannot stand it's ground against the evil that is Wahabbism and (Salali Islam)than God help us all!
Likewise if you let hypercalvinist take over the SBC, your mission field and the politics of your government I likewise say may God help us all!
Mr. Dupree,
Thank you for your kind response. Your comment gives me an idea you are a fellow who has made an effort grasp the issues of life with an understanding heart and mind. Obviously you have seen and deeply questioned some serious issues in your lifetime.
Some of the issues you address here, are issues I too have had to deal with in my life. I have seen all too well the evil that men do to each other and I know war is hell no matter the reason for it or the number of people involved. I am also of the opinion that politicians of many nations, including mine, seem to have forgotten their purpose and have yielded to the temptation of fulfillment of their own personal interests above the betterment of their people. Whether any of this will ever change I do not know.
But I do know that if we ever meet, I will be more than glad to buy you a good meal and hear your story and share with you mine.
Until then,
cb
Mr.Dupree:
I do hope you will order a copy of http://www.differentbookscommonword.com soon.
Will be a great resource for your blog discussions as it is a great leap forward for interfaith dialogue between Muslims and Christians.
To Mr. Dupree:
My ordaining pastor was a supralapsarian, a hyper- calvinist, his words from the pulpit and person to person, so I suppose one might classify me in that category. Without saying much one way or the other for the position, I will assume it for the present and point out that it was the calvinists who established the colonies and the United States. The two calvinists who established Rhode Island were Roger Williams & Dr. John Clarke. Williams is quite specific in his writings mentioning the Moslem (I think he used the term Mohammedan without perjorative connotations) as those who would in so many words be invited to the freedom of that colony. The term used by the early American Historian, Dr. George Bancroft, for America was “Calvinistic Republic,” a term also used to describe the governments in Switzerland, the Netherlands, Scotland, and England, the governments which by way of the covenantly ideas of the Old and New Testaments established the idea of God-given rights guaranteed in law by a written constitution which takes precedence over all other views and thus guarantees protection to the individual.
As to the Arminian being more compassionate than the Calvinist that depends upon the Arminian just as it does on the Calvinist. While I am wanting in my acquaintance with Islam in many respects, I have done some study in the field. I even wrote a term paper at Columbia University on the subject, “Intellectuals of the Western Sudan.” The main focus of my study was a Black scholar of the University mosque of Timbuktu, Ahmed Baba, “The Rare Jewel of Learning,” whom I compared with the great Arab scholar of Spain in the Middle Ages, Ibn Khaldun, and found him to compare quite favorably with the latter scholar. Religious liberty, for the Calvinists, who are really the people more than any others to establish the practice by written law, means the freedom to inquire, examine, investigate, weigh, question, criticize, and assess for acceptance or rejection all views that come before us. This, I believe, with some justification, comes from the Holy Writ of the Old and New Testaments. The God of the Bible invites us to examine, test, try, and prove Him. The only limitation we put on any one is that their freedom to do so stops at the freedom of the next person to do the same. Any time our freedom proves inimical to the other person, it is restrained. Like it or not my children, if they should choose to become Moslem can do so and I can do nothing to physically restrain or punish them (not that I would. On the contrary I would be broken-hearted and would cry to God only). We understand that such is not the case in Moslem countries where a Moslem who converts to the Christian Faith can be put to death.
Having been an Atheist before my conversion, I can testify that the best place for an Atheist to grow up is in a home of Baptists. All they do is pray for you and try to bear witness to you, and they usually win the day as love is truly the irresistible reality that conquers the cruel heart as life overcomes the dead heart when God speaks, saying, “Live.” Remember, my dear sir, the freedoms you enjoy here come from the Book, the Bible, which is the source in double digits above all else (the political philosophers, Montesquieu and Locke, are all in the single digits for their influence)according to a couple of Professors at Houston who did the research. God grant you the grace to see that all of us, to the best of our ability, desie to win you to a freely made decision for the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God and our Lord and Savior who died on Calvary for our sins, paying the price to set us free from the Just claims of the Law of God.
Brother CB,
You asked:
I am not employed by the IMB. I do not employ the CAMEL.
Ultimately, I think it comes down to politics. Baptists are typically good, patriotic Americans. Due to this we tend to have a hard time moving past viewing “them” as our national enemies… much like the Prophet Jonah.
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
FTME,
I asked that question because there seems to be a few problems with the FAITH Evangelism Plan relating to the “survey card” not actually being used for a real survey. Yet, I never hear anyone challenging the integrity issue of saying you are doing a survey, when in fact, no real survey is taking place.
And, although I really know nothing much of the CM, there seems to be great criticism relating to integrity issues from many people.
Picture this: I came in late and tired. I had left Rocky Mount and my daughter’s house in a blizzard which went from a little snow on the road to a mushy mess in 10 minutes so bad cars were slipping and sliding just past the house. Fortunately they hadn’s yet cut off our lights because the economy is so bad and work is so slow. I turn on the puter to find interesting comments, some even from the Middle East and actual “godless Moslims.” C.B. has been somewhat nice!
I eat some left over pizza and sit down to write my thoughts after some really good input from the Impact gang. I was finally pleased after doing all the strange Gravatars to really make it look good. I hit the “submit” button without saving the intellectual stuff–and the darn thing tells me “website cannot be found.” I tried to say, “Hallilujah,” but a cuss word came out!!!! Heck, go to bed before I chew my internet cable in two! Let’s try again.
Actually, the comments have been more intelligent than perjorative. This is good! Old C.B. is still being C.B., but nice enough not to get booted for flaming me. What concerns me is more focus on “sola scriptorum” than the far more serious one of “whether we have a unique God who might think enough of his creation to allow for alternate ways to him involving mysterious ways beyond BF&M guidelines.”
I still don’t see very satisfactory answers. I have a growing appreciation of Dr. Jim Willingham. He offered marvelous stories of how God found people of other cultures before they found Him. (67)
Again in (107) he uses the image of the crystal clear mountain stream which appeared to be 2′ deep, but was really 20′! That makes sense to me.
We have taken on Anne Graham Lotz and Billy for daring to declare God, in his Infinite Wisdom, has allowed women to preach dispite BF&M 2000! It still concerns me how we have shown our monkey tails to the world with so many declarations about God not hearing the prayers of Jews or calling a female to be ordained. We have kicked out Decatur First for such. I and numerous HMB executives have been members and I was called to preach and ordained there! Don’t forget our “open-minded” approach to Broadway Baptist for its ministry to homosexuals! Now we sentence Abou ben Adam to Hell dispite “loving his fellow man.”
There is nothing we won’t judge these days, it seems!
Now, rather than do more debate for the moment, let me tell you what I was doing in Rocky Mount. Last Saturday I took down 2 large oaks for a man who had gotten his back crushed cutting a tree for himself. He has little money, but could come up with $600 to employ me, my heavy Bobcat, and Stump Cutter to do the serious stuff. His relatives were coming to cut up the tree for firewood–a 3 day task without anything more than homeowner grade saws.
Dispite still owing almost $1200 on the last repair of the Bobcat, I looked at the danger involved with limbs under tremdous pressure and trunk wood so large only my $700 4′bar commercial grade saw could cut and made an executive decision to stay with them for 8 hours and drag the tree parts to safe places where they could take care of it rather than have the wife’s front yard so cluttered you could not even see the house.
Normally, the Bobcat works for $150 an hour, but this man needed help he could not afford. $1200 could not be found, no matter what he did. They fed all of us wonderful pizza that evening, we had great fellowship, my customer knows more real theology than most preachers dispite having grown up in the W. Virginia mountains. His approach is common sense plus serious individual study of the Bible itself. He doesn’t buy into much Baptist BS these days, nor anyone else’s stuff in government or corporate robbery.
I felt no need to “witness” to him. He already has a great relationship to God without going to church and being entertained. He has helped people before he got injured. He is in his second marriage and his wife ran out yesterday to do “Meals on Wheels.” She doesn’t like flamboyant religion either. I would have treated him like we someetimes do Moslems by judging him on a divorce and non-church-attendance. I tried to get him to stay in his electric wheel chair, but he hobbled off to fork chips into my Bobcat bucket. Yesterday when I did the final large wood removal at no charge, he was bed ridden over extending himself too much cutting up the firewood while kneeling beside it to avoid ungodly back pain.
Question: will any of you take up an offering to pay for my expenses so I can pay Bobcat of Wilson the money I owe them?
I just hope this gets to the website without angering me with an error message!
Gene Scarborough,
The next time you have trouble submitting a post and you are trying to determine which of the options you listed as to what to do; I vote for you to go ahead and:
“….chew” your “internet cable in two!”
Gottcha C.B.!!!
This time I saved my post to my wordpad–it got the error message–is it a “time limit” thing which causes this David?
Now the real question C.B.–Will you contribute to my ministry and mission or not?
If you will send me your phone number, I’ll just ask you to cuss for me next time!
No Gene, on both counts. I will not contribute to your ministry.
After working hard in various positions long years with many other fine theologically true and historically correct Southern Baptists during the CR and finally defeating those of your theological persuasion and driving most of you into the hinterlands where you belong, I have no desire to contribute to that of which was without historical, theological and biblical merit in the first place.
Secondly, cussin’ is usually best accomplished by the one who has determined the need for it and I will leave you to yours.
But I will be more than glad to do all I can to bring you to the desire, plan and execution of “chewing your internet cable in two!”
Gene,
There are no other ways to heaven. God only has one way. Period. All Christians recognize that.
Hello Joe,
Good to see you this fine morning.
Oh, and at the risk of having a comment deleted let me add—
No Christian would suggest there are more ways to God or that Mormons are real Christians. How does this relate to the topic of the post, one might ask. I would suggest that there may be some who promote or use the Camel method because they believe the message of the gospel is not sufficient and another way has to be used to lead people to Christ. I’m not saying that’s the purpose of the method or that all people who use that method are motivated by that but it seems there are some who are.
Sorry boys–
I may be only one, but I would like to believe our God is BIGGER than BF&M 2000 OR our Canon which was put together by men raising their hands to say what was included and what should be cut out!!!
Mr. CB
Roll Tide, sir. We’re thinking about going down that way for the A Day game this year.
Brothers,
Please stick to the topic.
Peace to you all,
From the Middle East
Well, that is great Joe, Maybe I will see you there. Look for the guy with the T-Shirt on that says:
“DON’T BLAME ME. I DID ALL I COULD TO GET GENE SCARBOROUGH TO CHEW HIS INTERNET CABLE IN TWO”
FTME
Who died and made you blog police? JUST KIDDING!!!
I appreciate the admonition. However, I think my point about the fact that no Christian would suggest there are more ways to God that what God has in fact ordained is on topic. While the Camel method may not make that assertion, I suggest there are those who would use it because they felt the gospel itself was not sufficient which is similar to Gene’s diatribe about there being more than one way to God.
Brother Joe,
You said:
Two questions:
1. Have you read the Camel Training Manual?
2. While your statement above is only a “suggestion,” I was wondering if this suggestion was more than an untested hypothesis… if so, would you be so kind as to provide some examples of Southern Baptists who are motivated to use the Camel Method “because they believe the message of the gospel is not sufficient?”
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
1- I haven’t although I’d be interested in reading it.
2- I don’t have any specific examples. It’s more of a general impression that I’ve gotten having read some comments on various blogs. I may be wrong since, well let’s face it, it’s not like blogs or blog comment threads are exhaustive treatises of what people think or feel.
Gene,
You are correct the BF&M of all editions is ours and it is fallible for sure.
But the ” our Canon” you speak of is not “ours” in the least. That is God’s Word. And God’s Word is perfect for it stands on the foundation of the integrity of God, therefore infallible, perfect in every way. Inerrant.
The bases of all your theological drift to the left can be traced to your denial of that one thing. Reexamine you theology as to the inspiration of the Word of God. Therein you will find your error.
Joe,
Have you examined the FAITH Evangelism Plan? if so, do you have an opinion of it you would not mind sharing?
Brother Joe,
I kind of thought that might be the case… my immediate reaction after reading your suggestion was that you must not have read the book itself. I cannot fathom someone who believes there is more than one way to God ever using the Camel as it is quite exclusive in that regard.
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
CB
I am a wee bit familiar with FAITH. If I remember right, it is very similar to a sales pitch. When they did it at one church where I was a bi-vo minister of music, I remember thinking “This looks like something a Jehovah’s Witness would use”–the whole canned presentation thing. I mean, using acronyms to remember verses is probably a good thing but the whole approach felt more like a used car salesman than anything else. Of course, others may have different opinions.
Brother CB,
Apologies, I forgot to follow up with your questions about FAITH. I do not know anything about it… my “formal” training would be with Evangelism Explosion and Way of the Master. However, any “method” that presents someone as taking a survey, but is not actually doing that seems a little shady to me.
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
Gene,
Your comment #131 might be more apropos to the comment stream on Rob Ayers’ post today on Scripture, Rationalism, and Epistemology.
David:
I just emailed Gene before I saw your note above. I think he will be engaging Ayers and Sola Scriptura soon
No kidding, would be interesting indeed–framed by my comment 5 on Ayers post today–if Barry Hankins would have you out to Ken Starr’s Baylor this fall to discuss some of these matters with Charles Marsh.
I do hope you can make time soon for his Wayward Christian Soldiers especially his prescient thoughts on the Lausanne Conference of circa 1974 and how Billy Graham tacked different from Francis Schaeffer.
The Schaeffer influence on Mohler and Richard Land has been palpable in our common history of the last 40 years.
To have you and Charles, sons of two contemporaries at NOBTS look back in a Barry Hankins chaired panel with Ken Starr in the audience; could be quite a show, with a strong dose of virtue obtaining.
Joe and FTME,
I have had no involvement with or reading of the CM. All I know of it is what I have read others say about it, both pro and con.
I have had extensive involvement with FAITH even so much as serving as a class instructor three semesters at one of our seminaries.
My problem was with the use of the survey card. Every time I used that survey card at a person’s home, instructing students in the use of the plan, I felt terribly guilty because I knew good and well we were not there for a religious survey. The survey card was used only as a vehicle to get the opportunity to share the gospel according to the FAITH Plan.
Finally, I could not deal with the deception (I felt it was deceptive anyway) so I stopped allowing the students to use the survey card.
Now, here is my issue here: I have read more than one blog post as to the ills of the CM. I have read several defenses of the CM.
But, as of yet, I have never read a blog post dedicated to the (my personal opinion) integrity issue of the FAITH Evangelism Plan.
(BTW, I have memorized 11 different “witnessing plans” over the years. But, I never use them other than during the time when we “were going out to use them” during the seminar.)
For years, my evangelism “strategy” has been just to ask a person if I can tell him or her my story (the testimony of my life journey and how it intersected with the Good Story of Jesus Christ). Some desire to listen and some don’t. Some who listen become Followers of Christ at the time of the telling of my story. Some become Followers of Christ later. Many (most) do not become Followers of Christ at the time of me telling them my story. And more than that have not become Followers of Christ at anytime afterward as far as I know.
I am not sure, but I believe that the best way to share the gospel is to tell another person how the gospel changed your personal life and then leave the results up to the Spirit of God in that person’s life.
Maybe I am just too much of a “free-booter” to feel comfortable using a “plan” developed for the purpose of evangelism.
Nonetheless, I believe we all, who claim the Name of Jesus are to share the gospel. Therefore, if a plan developed for such helps other people and can be used with integrity and is not structurally contrary to the Scripture; I say, Go for it.
Brother CB,
AMEN!
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
Our brother from the Middle East has NO INTEREST in American football rivalries. On the other hand he has shown some of this bravado to be from people like those in Mobile: All Saturday work ended by 10:00 / adequate time given to get beer cold & steaks grilled / sitting like an idiot in front of the tube with other fools all dressed in ‘Bama red / LSU yellow / waving towels / screaming to the top of their lungs / etc.!!!!
What you don’t realize is that over here in ACC country, we actually educate people and know something about “life beyond football.” We are rejoicing that UNC is down this year, giving others a chance to shine. Even my GT Yellow Jackets have been winning of late–so much for academic standards which used to keep the monsters without knowledge of anything other than “where be our goal dis quarter.” “Dis be da one,” is the best they can do with the network interviewer!
I do enjoy watching brawn without brains!!!
Now which one does C.B. fit into?
He has memorized 11 different “witnessing plans,” but can’t give room or acknowledgement that when Paul wrote Timothy that “all scripture is inspired by God,” he was referring to “graphe / writings,” many of which were excluded from our Canon–put together by the Council of Nicea. That’s just basic scripture history!
One of the hurdles was that anything included must agree with the Apostles Creed. Now that was the BF&M of their day–so history clearly teaches us that “scriptures” Paul cited as “inspired” were subjugated to a Creed made by the Early Church!
You all should be watching the History Channel seriously this morning. It is exploring the early church’s relationship to Judaism. Whereas, those who followed Peter were required to adopt all Jewish practices / use Jewish words & meanings which Gentiles did not know in full. In other words, the belief in Christ was tempered with “Judaism first” requirements. They even required that he be viewed as the Messiah rather than the Son of God!
Now, this gives some food for thought:
Peter “required” his followers to become Jews first so they could get into Heaven!
Paul said it was OK to be non-Jewish and still get into heaven!
What if both kinds of Christians (followers of Christ) got into heaven dispite their BF&M requirements of their day!!!!
Maybe C.B., et al, should study the Bible more than Witness Plans–along with some Early Church History!!!
C.B. said:
I am not sure, but I believe that the best way to share the gospel is to tell another person how the gospel changed your personal life and then leave the results up to the Spirit of God in that person’s life.
Gene says:
Congratulations to us both–we have total agreement on this one!!!
However, I know of a great number of questioning Christians who listened to my approaches, and finally found enough intelligent faith with which they could commit their lives!
I wish to say here that I hold to the fact that Christ is the only way of salvation. He made exclusive claims on the issue, and I, for one, intend to hold with Him, in submission to Him. Having said that, I also know that He is far more liberal than many conservatives think, and He is also far more conservative than many liberals think. I wrote one blog on this and the computer and the net ate it. So I try again, Our compassion and commitment are matters of balance. Our compassion is bound by our commitment, and our commitment is bound by our compassion. Both, however come from Christ, who intends to bring the whole earth into subjection by the old fashioned means of persuasion – not physical force. And His persuason is irresistible, the irresistibleness of being so wonderful and so marvelous that no one would, could or even dream of resisting it.
Gene,
The formation of the canon is a big issue all of itself. Back several posts ago, someone made a comment about this, I think it may have been FTME, in relation to a post at Internet Monk.
Maybe one day, we can get full force into that question here. But, I suggest we leave it for another time.
No problem, David.
At the least you are willing to admit there is a problem with how we define “sola scriptorum” and Inerrancy–alongside those “scriptures” not included in the Canon–and the way by which it was composed as “our Bible.”
The “Inerrant Bible” was a big conroversy when new translations began to appear with the Revised Standard Version / Today’s English Version / etc. It gets far more complex when you examine Church History on the original composition of the Canon!
Again–professors have been fired for just admitting in in a Seminary Classroom! Then really got chastised by naive students thinking they professor was “liberal.” The truth is the truth and must fit in with an informed faith. Part of the Pressler / Patterson assault dealt with Inerrancy. It was solidly faced and discussed at the Ridgecrest Conference on Biblical Inerrancy–which did NOTHING to offset the takeover. Perhaps a large part of our problems today is pure “IGNERUNCE!”
While I hold with the biblical orthodoxy of the 1700s as well as that, I trust, of the first century, I do want to say bro. Gene gets zealous and over states his case, but he is still a compassionate and caring individual. You folks need to remember that Jesus chose a Publican to be the fellow who got his prayers answered instead of the Pharisee. And I say that not to sell any teaching of our Lord short. Let us remmber in our zeal to be right we might over state our case, and those from outside are observing our give and take. Bro. Gene needs to watch his overstatements, too. Let brotherly love continue, as the Bible says.
James,
I don’t have to remember the Publican. I am the Publican’s Publican and we are Legion.
BTW, why do you identify yourself as Dr. on a comment thread of a blog post? Would not James Willy suffice? Or just Jimmy Willingham serve you just as well?
With the name of God, Peace be unto you.
I know this may not be the place to publish such comments and with that I apologise. However, in light of the recent tensions between self professed ‘Dr’ James White and Dr. Ergun Caner I needed to make the following clear.
Because the world is indeed watching. Watching the SBC, watching the Calvinist Arminian rivalry.
Although I am of the strong opinion and view that Ergun Caner has made many fallicious claims and simply is not being dishonest to the people of SBC in a token of fairness James White has not been up to snuff so to speak about being consistent and transparent.
Recently after Dr. Caner had issued a public apology, James White felt it prudent to kick more dirt in the face of Ergun Caner by publishing another post on his site stating that it is not permissible for Muslims to pray in the bathroom.
He is relying upon Second hand information from Muslim sources attacking a fellow Christian without verification. He does not know who mokhan247 is nor does he know what his qualifications are as a Muslim.
Instead it serves his (James White’s) cause in his continued war against the SBC.
I have published a blog post that shows James White is not as scholastic as one thinks when it comes to matters on Islam. Those of you have traveled in Muslim countries will note differences from region to region. Of course James being the elect of God doesn’t have to go out and win souls for Christ; and thus would know nothing of what Muslims actually believe.
http://thegrandverbalizer19.blogspot.com/2010/03/james-white-kicks-more-dirt-in-face-of.html
“James White kicks more dirt in the face of fellow Christian Ergun Caner”
James White is ignorant of the fact that in the Hanafi school of Islamic legal jurisprudence a person is allowed to pray in the bathroom. Please note also that Ergun Caner in the video they try to “expose” him on admits to bringing a “prayer rug” which would not allow for his hands, face and head to touch the floor.
Many of us have been in bathrooms in American highschools. Though we would not want to eat of the floors I am sure many can testify that the janitors do a pretty good job of keeping the place neat and tidy.
I have also exposed James in a debate he had with Shabir Ally about his ‘sources’ and I have posted his video response where he does a song and dance and still never gives us the sources he used. One wonders if he ever will.
So my intention in all of this is simple. The people who are calling Ergun Caner out on inconsistency need to use the same standard with James White.
Because as the good “DR” says, “Inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument”
A challenge to all good Gnostic minds—what does this mean:
Y Y U R Y Y U B I C U R Y Y 4 M E
TWO WISE YOU ARE
TWO WISE YOU BE
I SEE YOU ARE TWO WISE FOR ME
Jonathan–congratulations!!
This little exercise separates linear thinkers from depth thinkers!
Now, here is a place for all of us to do some thinking:
http://www.bibleandkoran.net/index.php
Yesterday I had a 2nd fascinating conversation with a man from the Middle East who is quite knowledgeable about the Koran. We got into it because he had his television on an Arab station not normally seen in America and I asked him about it.
I have never before had any information about the direct relationship between our Bible and the Koran. Jonathan is doing a good job of trying to correct our confusion–and I thank him for it.
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I thank David and this blog for allowing some new ideas to be laid on the table of understanding. This is a giant step for CR and gives evidence there is more openess than many imagined.
As long as we try to live with isolated “Southern Thinking” we get in trouble when we set foot on foreign soil. I think we can see more clearly the things our Missionaries face sharing the Gospel with the Arab world which is no longer confined to the Middle East.
Joe & C.B.–
My father happened to be one of the most wise and compassionate men to ever grace a pulpit / hospital room / juvenile detention cell. His counsel was sought by a multitude of pastors and laymen in the Atlanta Baptist Association.
Were he alive today, he would be apalled at the attack of CR on Autonomy. He would also advise you to get a life outside your narrow approach to God. To find “joy” and “peace” and a real relationship to our loving Heavenly Father, you must first get along with brothers in the faith rather than to instantly denounce them!
CB and Gene
The time has come for the two of you to swap emails or phone numbers. I cant speak for everyone on here, but I come to sbcimpact and other blogs for fellowship and interaction with peers in my field of study. If I wanted to listen to this low brow “I know you are but what am I” argumentation, I would instigate a fight between my three kids and sit back and watch.
Available topics for discussion: the camel, the debate surrounding the camel, contextualization, missions in the Islamic context, bridging, God’s ontology.
Topics off the table: CB, Gene, Liars, Liberals, Caner Bros, stump grinders, folksy insults, what someone said way back when on some other blog [we are three times removed from caring!]
It appears the two of you have much to discuss. Please pick a more appropriate venue.
Rastis–
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I just found the web site I cited and have busied myself in reading the fascinating material. In the past I have relied on people telling me about the Koran, but never reading it myself. With the research capacity of the Internet, that excuse is gone and you don’t have to go to an Arab bookstore to read their Holy Text, itself.
The similarities are astounding! In the past I just thought the Koran was primarily the story of Mohammud, but it contains material with which us Bible readers are quite familiar! The differences as to account are not that great.
VERY INTERESTING
CB, I have no desire to ban anyone. This is not in an effort to be PC. But you two have been way outside the guidelines for a while. The individual threads of this blog are not “open mic” for people to just talk about whatever they want. I want [and I believe all of the other contributors are with me] free speech for people to be able to discuss pretty much any viewpoint relating to a given topic at hand. But that is a far cry difference from just opening it up for folks to air personal grievances.
Anyone who was at SEBTS during the Patterson years knows what his office looked liked. 2″ carpet is just so funny why does it even warrant a response? No one is fooled, particularly those of us who were there.
Gene,
it takes two…
yes, there are many points of contact which is why bridging can be an effective tool. Muhammad was in contact with various strains of Judaism and Christianity. It has led some to oversimplify the religion as Judaism + Christianity + Zoroastrianism + Arab tribalism = Islam. Again, it is an oversimplification, but there are some interesting parallels.
Rastis–
After 3 years at SEBTS, I began in 1970 a 16 year career as Associate Pastor becoming Senior Minister. I was in SC / NC / GA for this.
In 1986 I was invited to start representing Ministers Life Insurance Company in Eastern NC. It now belongs to Minnesota Mutual. To the present, I continue to help churches who cannot afford a person with my skills and training.
That sales training had a “track,” but many other important things when it comes to closing a sale.
The first was to anticipate objections–some of them critical of you or insurance. Step 1 is: “get on his side.” In other words, say, “I hear what you are saying, but . . .” Step 2 is to remind the client why he sought your services in the first place. A question like, “Tell me how much you love your family,” is a great starting point. If he doesn’t love his wife and children, then close your book and move on to someone who does! You are wasting both your time and his if there is no basis of love.
Perhaps, part of the problem you are trying to bring under control is a lack of love within our SBC circles which used to advocate Autonomy and “agree to disagree.” Until we return to that kind of love, we will remain an object of derision causing churches to take “Baptist” off the church sign!
With the name of God
Peace be unto you.
“If the Prophet had so wished supposing Islam were the product of his mind, he could also have declared himself the son of God; he could have declared the Arabs a people elect; he could have founded a dispersed and dispersing cult which would have included his own personality, the Archangels some pagan divinities and, possibly, one or more of his wives, along with God; and he would certainly have done so if he had the character still all to readily attributed to him in the West, That he did not do so proves in any case two things, namely a character of absolute integrity, and an authentic message from God.
Source: (Christianity/Islam Essays on Esoteric Ecumenicism by Frithjof Schuon pg. 174)
There obviously will be something common especially if Muhammed(pbuh) is written about in the Bible.
http://thegrandverbalizer19.blogspot.com/2009/11/muhammad-written-about-in-bible.html
Do you see where it leads? Do you see why soo many want to burn bridges and widen the gap? “Allah is the Moon-god”
Muhammed was possessed! The Qur’an gets the trinity wrong! 400 years my brothers and sisters, 400 years. For 400 years the armies of Europe , Africa and Asia spilled more blood over truth than all the other wars in history combined! The United States is just past her 250 years. So just imagine my children and my children’s children going to war.
Just imagine your children, and your children’s children’s children waging war for 400 years. That’s allot of hate! That’s allot of time to build up polemic and a huge barrier against a people.
All I ever say to people is read the Qur’an, and if you are not moved by it than fine. But atleast read it.
Johnathon
Galatians 1:8
“God could be in all religions in some fashion.”
During “the days of Elijah” would God have been in Baal worship also?
With the name of God, Peace be unto you.
First off to Gene even as a Muslim I wonder your intentions. You spell the word Muslim as Moslums (short for) Mohammed’s slums (ghetto).
I just thought it was a bit strange for someone who otherwise has very excellent spelling and grammar.
You spell Muhammed (pbuh) as Mohammud at least this has come a long way from Christian polemic in European history where they used to spell our prophet’s name as Mohound (which is actually a dog).
As far as people who have not heard of Jesus dying and going to hell. This does not seem to bother the Calvinist too much. I just wonder if they thought about the theological implications if they were that poor fellow who was not chosen by the soverignty of God to be part of the elect how would they feel about it.
Infact Calvinism is replete with inconsistency. If you are already saved in Christ before the foundation of the world there is no need to even send Jesus as a reedemer. For what end? Think about it! It pleases God to save the few and damn the lot. However, God must appease his justice by having a sacrifice. Who is God sacrificing Jesus (who only died for the elect too)? If these people (the elect) were already chosen before the foundation of the world seems that the whole sacrifice of Jesus is a bit redundant doesn’t it? Please understand that I am not poking fun of the sacrifice in Christianity. I am pointing out why we as Muslims would find allot of Calvinist teachings as really odd.
I even find the idea that a Calvinist would not baptize an infant to be very inconsistent with the idea of regeneration before faith.
Now to Joe Blackman
Galatians 1:8 “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”
1) Here there is an admission that an angel from heaven could preach something contra Christ. And that even “we” someone from the flock could preach something contra Christ.
Let us look at another passage.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15 KJV
13 “For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.”
14″ And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.”
Christians assert that Muhammed (pbuh) was decieved by a false angel or Satan in the cave of hira.
However, remember that in Acts 9,22 and 26 Paul claims to have seen an a great light that he claims is Christ Jesus. When a person reads all three accounts and juxtaposed them something seems strange.
So I guess I would ask the same question how do we know that Paul was not decieved?
2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
Do we have any independent record or witness that these other companions of Paul wrote anything independent of Paul? Or do we only have Paul’s testimony that seems to be inconsistent that two others beside him witnessed the events?
Some Muslims are curious about these points.
Jonathan–
I apologize profusely for any mispelling. It confirms my confession that I am not as conversant with your religion or culture as I would like to be.
It also confirms how easy it is for anyone to disgust, without meaning to, someone in another culture. Even among us English speaking people, to call a child a “cute little bugger” in Britian is an insult when that is a term of endearment in the South where I live.
The world of language is crazy and not to be taken too seriously. Just call me “Southern Stupid” when I mess up!
Now, good old C.B. and Joe add to what I say so they have a case against me.
Gentlemen, I’m just here to try and say an honest prophetic word. The criticism from both sides proves to me (1) I am being paid attention to, (2) I am saying things which cause you to think, (3) I am human and am not purposely trying to gripe anyone off, (4) many times when you are truth telling, people would rather find insignificant things to criticize so they don’t have to deal with the real truth!
In a way, I am honored, BUT the constant criticism hurts. I am not perfect, just forgiven! At least, I am making this blog interesting for those who wonder what will be said next.
Jonathan said:
Infact (in fact) Calvinism is replete with inconsistency. If you are already saved in Christ before the foundation of the world there is no need to even send Jesus as a reedemer (Redeemer). For what end? Think about it! It pleases God to save the few and damn the lot. However, God must appease his justice by having a sacrifice. Who is God sacrificing Jesus (who only died for the elect too)? If these people (the elect) were already chosen before the foundation of the world seems that the whole sacrifice of Jesus is a bit redundant doesn’t it? Please understand that I am not poking fun of the sacrifice in Christianity. I am pointing out why we as Muslims would find allot of Calvinist teachings as really odd.
In my opinion, you have hit on the important weaknesses of a Calvinist approach to Christianity which was earlier rejected by most Baptists. Calvin’s thinking was the heart of the Presbyterian faith rather than Baptist.
Also in that debate era (1800′s) of Baptist-Methodist-Presbyterian us Baptists were convinced anyone other than us and our language were bound for Hell! It’s not too different from the “moderate vs. conservative” era of Conservative Resurgence before, and immediately after, 1979.
NOTE FROM MODERATOR:
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With the name of God, Peace be unto you. Gene I am the one who needs to apologise to you. Muslims are told by Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) make 40 excuses for your brother or sister. I didn’t do that I just assumed. You are also correct we are not perfect anything that is dependent upon something else is not perfect. The creator is independent of everyting (including space and time). Gene I do feel that you are a sincere and humble person.
I hope to continue dialouge and discussion with you. To David Rogers my apologies for going off topic and please do give me a warning before I get banned. I wish to engage, contribute and learn.
Thanks to all and peace be with you.
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