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tagged: Bowden McElroy, Christian Counseling, Current Events, Ministry, Paige Patterson, SWBTS, worldviewSWBTS Eliminates Counseling Program
Posted by Bowden McElroy in Baptist Life, News & Culture
The press release from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary is worded in a positive manner. A committee consisting of “all professors who teach counseling on a regular basis” will “shape a distinctively Southwestern Program of Christian Counseling”.
The first paragraph of the press release is interesting, but not particularly news worthy. Every school that offers a counseling program strives for a unique approach: why start yet another program that merely duplicates something a few miles down the road? Christian colleges and seminaries are positioned to create programs that reflect a biblical view of the world. I applaud any counseling program that periodically reviews its mission statement in order to assure the best program for its students.
The real news is in the second paragraph:
For some years Southwestern has provided two different approaches to counseling. Financial realities now render this approach an impossible luxury, Patterson explained. Obligations to students in the program seeking state licensure will be honored, but the program leading specifically to licensure will not be available in the future.
SWBTS is eliminating the counseling program that leads to state licensure.
That IS news. It’s also short-sighted and a mistake.
When I was in college and looking for a Christian counseling program, there were very few options. In fact, there were very few Christian counselors. When I started my career I was lambasted both by the counseling profession and the church. The church world thought I must have been tainted by anti-biblical, humanistic, of-the-devil counseling theories simply by virtue of studying at a state university while the counseling profession accused me of substituting homilies and sermons for actual counseling. I had to do the work of integrating psychology and theology myself; I would have loved to take advantage of professors who would have guided me through the process, challenging me to be faithful to my biblical view of the world.
Things changed over the years. The church community saw that it is possible for a counselor to maintain a biblical world view, adding only those empirically validated counseling concepts that do not clash or invalidate that view; the counseling profession began to take seriously our desire to maintain professional standards and scholarship.
Now, it seems SWBTS is taking a giant step backward.
Dr. Patterson stated, “We want to develop a program of counseling that is distinctively for the churches. Like all graduate studies, such a program should introduce the student to all of the findings, history and theories of psychology and counseling. In addition, the program will emphasize biblical principles set in the context of developing a biblical worldview and perspective on life.”
The implication is that the pursuit of licensure is somehow anti-church and does not emphasize biblical principles. Neither is true.
The SWBTS program that leads to licensure does emphasize a biblical world view.
The counseling program leading to a state license also benefits the local churches. Aaron New, a professor of psychology at Central Baptist College put it more succinctly than I could:
“There is quite a large number of graduates that are working and serving in churches and in missions. And it certainly seems to me that when churches seek candidates to minister as a counselor, they are increasingly looking for counselors with a license. This reduces the church’s liability in an age of litigation and demonstrates to their congregation and potential members that they have a qualified minister/counselor. Licensed counselors also often carry their own insurance – a significant advantage over non-licensed counselors.
I would add to that such a program allows a Christian counselor to be a bi-vocational minister: working for an agency or in private practice to pay the bills and serving – in either a paid or unpaid position – the local church on the side.
I understand the need to cut costs in today’s economy. I just wish SWBTS could find a different way.
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“SWBTS is eliminating the counseling program that leads to state licensure.
That IS news. It’s also short-sighted and a mistake.”
Actually, seeking licensure is the mistake. Do we, as the church, want our counseling governed by the whims of secular legislature? Should we as a church out-source the care of our flock to people who are not a part of our local assembly? Is it right for the growth in sanctification (and sometimes even the initial step of regeneration) of those seeking counseling to be done isolated from their church fellowship and local pastors?
The answer to all of this is no. Yet, this is largeky (if not exclusively) how licensed Christian counseling operates. Dr. Patterson is right in that the seminary exists for the churches, and as such they should be focused on building true pastor-shepherds for them. Licensed counselors, though not in and of themselves bad, are subject to authority which is largely unsympathetic to the view of the healing community prescribed in Scripture. This move is a positive step for Southwestern and I am glad to hear it.
I would check out Dr. Russ Moore’s message on the counseling program at Southern if you haven’t already.
Let me see if I can keep track of the assumptions you are making.
1. The state legislature looks over the shoulders of counselors and dictates how they do counseling.
2. Christian counselors compete with the local church for the care of believers.
3. Christian counseling is done in isolation from local congregations and pastors.
4. Seminaries should exist only to train “pastor-shepherds” (I guess that would be news to the Music and Christian Education schools at SWBTS).
I would submit that none of these assumptions are accurate.
You’re right, none of your representations of my assumptions are accurate.
1. Licensing requirements force Christian counselors to abide by specific laws that may or may not (depending upon the state) be in line with Scripture and/or the best interest of the church.
2. Christian counselors exist because the local church fails at the care of believers. They compete with the local church in the sense that it allows pastors to be weak in pastoral care and shirk off portions of the responsibility that God has given them in caring for the flock that is among them (cf. 1 Peter 5.1-2, Ephesians 4.11ff).
3. Christian counseling always has the option of being done in isolation from the local congregation as well as from the Christian community altogether. This is definitely not in keeping with Scripture (cf. Galatians 6.2, Hebrews 10.24-25 among others)
4. Seminaries do not exist to train pastor-shepherds exclusively, but their interest should always be in the promotion and well-being of the local church, and in the realm of counseling the training of church-independent counseling does not fit this bill.
Don’t get me wrong. I think that strong, biblical counseling is something that is greatly needed by many people who are currently suffering silently in the pews. However, the Scriptures attest that this counseling should be done in the local church, by the local church, so that it results not only in a stronger individual but a stronger congregation who are living rightly as the body of Christ.
Todd,
Thanks for clarifying your positions.
Re: “Don’t get me wrong. I think that strong, biblical counseling is something that is greatly needed by many people who are currently suffering silently in the pews.” I agree; I have often said that if churches were doing all they were supposed to do, half my caseload would disappear.
Two thoughts:
First, the SWBTS press release indicated the seminary would continue to teach theories and history of psychology/counseling. If you’re already teaching those courses, why not create a program that will meet the requirements for state licensure? Then graduates would have the opportunity of choosing licensure or not. If it doesn’t take much more to give graduates that option, then why not?
Second – and related to the first – giving grads an opportunity to meet the requirements for licensure gives them the option of being bi-vocational ministers. I can earn my living working for the local psychiatric hospital during the day and spend my evenings and Saturdays as a bi-vocational minister in a local congregation. Why make the assumption that being eligible for licensure means working outside the church?
Tulsa has a very active network/association of Christian counselors. The vast majority are either working for a church as a staff member or volunteering their time at their church.
I have no problems with any argument that says pastors need to have more training in counseling, or that churches need more lay-counselor ministries built into the way they do discipleship, or that we (Christians in leadership in a local church) need to take back what has been given away to the mental health community. I just don’t think that a program that meets the criteria for state licensure is inherently anti-biblical and would like to see our seminaries provide training that gives grads that option.
Well, it isn’t surprising. This is the same school that offers a new Bachelors in Homemaking that is straight out of the 50s. I am not surprised that my Alma Mater consistently making great strides backwards.
SWBTS had 3 different counseling programs: a traditional counseling program from a Christian perspective, one in the Community Based Ministry program (Social Work) and pastoral counseling. I felt having three programs was a good because it allowed preparation for different types of ministry.
As for the state licensees for the most part they do not limit Christian professionals from sharing their faith. However, as Christians voluntarily our standards and level of compentancy should exceed what is required of by the state.
Todd,
I currently hold state licensure in the teaching profession. My daughter holds the same. Neither of us are prevented from teaching in Christian schools, nor are we regarded as “tainted” since most Christian school teachers are licensed. At the same time, we are eligible to teach in public schools. I don’t see how any of your arguments against licensure apply to other professions who hold state licenses. What makes counseling unique? I don’t think your arguments hold water.
1. What laws force Christians to violate their principles if they want to maintain a license?
2. Churches were also biblically charged with hospitality. I don’t see you making a case for pastors being doctors and maintaining unlicensed hospitals that compete with the commercial ones. “Healing the sick” was part of the admonition Christ gave his apostles and by extension us. How can you justify sending a trauma patient to a hospital but not sending a schizophrenic to one?
3. This is just a red herring. ANY Christian activity has the option of being done in isolation apart from the congregation. So what? I doubt that you would make a case for hospitality to come back under the aegis of the local church. Are you saying the churches should administer foster and orphan care or elder care in the place of the state? Or should Christians work to create a society where such impulses are institutionalized and then work in those institutions to achieve the work of God? Should we spread the Kingdom or keep it all to ourselves? Should we be a “yeast infection” in the three measures of dough that is the world and leaven the whole lump with Christian impulses or just cloister them off in our own Christian ghettos?
4. Wow. So seminary eduction is ONLY for local church-related efforts. Yeah, I’ll tell that to all my chaplain buddies in the service and all the business leaders I know who have seminary degrees. That way we can have the seminaries revoke their degrees because they aren’t serving in a local church. This is by far the most outlandish claim you have.
Sorry for not agreeing with you, but I cannot find a single one of your arguments that holds water. Christian education should be cast like seed to fall and germinate where it may, not kept in some form of holy huddle where it doesn’t engage the world.
rick
Bowden,
Good post. You’re on target.
I’m not a counselor and never went to seminary, but I am involved indirectly in it, as I’m Chairman of the Counseling Commission at FBC Pelham. That’s our “liaison” with, and provides whatever oversight is appropriate, for FBC’s Hope Center, our counseling office.
Rick, you’re right on.
Todd, you’re in left field. A bible education does not prepare pastors to do more than what my pastor, Dr. Mike Shaw, refers to as “band-aid counseling”. And licensure is highly appropriate for several reasons, not the least of which is that insurance for professional counselors may require it.
Bowden,
I appreciate your reply. I didn’t mean to come off as being against counseling in any way, and in fact I have debated myself very seriously over the last year as to whether or not I think Christian/biblical counselors should pursue licensing. Regardless of eventual positions, this is an issue (counseling) that I believe needs to have just as high an emphasis in the life of the church as exhortation, instruction and evangelism do already.
Rick,
I’m not sure what to do with the shotgun spray of proof-texts and “parallels” that you are using to argue here. I will say, though, I do not believe that we can draw an accurate comparison between a licensed Christian counselor and a licensed teacher. The professional commitments are not the same. Counseling in the world is almost entirely based upon atheistic principles and it is much easier for these influences to impinge upon a counselor than it is for them to do so on a school teacher. Moreover, I think there is also a question of whether we should be seeking worldly permission to do something which is rightly within the calling of the church. Here there is a parallel with Christian education since most schools run by churches do not require secular licensing of their teachers.
As far as the purpose of seminary, particularly in the SBC, yes, it is for the promotion and growth of the local church. The two examples you give, chaplaincy and secular professionals with seminary degrees are good examples of where we may go off course with this. Chaplaincy is a parachurch ministry, and as such it works to serve as an extension of the church. It goes out from the local church to do the care of the local church in its absence, but is in no means meant as a replacement for the local church (we see the same confusion in the various campus ministries). Similarly, why does the businessman have a seminary degree? One would hope it would be to educate and train them better to lead as a layperson within the local church. As Christians we are never called to seek knowledge for selfish reasons but are to always use in for the good of the community of believers we live among.
Bob,
What you are mention, this “band-aid counseling”, is the problem. This is the failure that I believe Dr. Patterson is seeking to remedy (as I know was the case when Southern went the same direction). The seminaries have failed the local church by not better equipping their ministers to deal with counseling matters. What a “bible education” does and what it should do are two different things, and simply placing an emphasis on specialized individuals who pursue a secular licensing is not the way to go in trying to put this back together.
Todd,
People are going to come to the pastor with problems. The pastor should be able to do the “band-aid counseling”, and should also realize that’s what he’s doing.
There should be licensed, trained Christian counselors out there, to refer those cases to. And we’re supposed to look to secularly-trained counselors for that? Not seminary-trained?
I still disagree, but it’s OK. It’s not bothersome for me, as my pastor and I happily disagree on some things (I’m Calvinist and he’s not, for instance), and it OK with both of us.
Bob,
My question is, why shouldn’t the pastor be trained to handle the counseling issues inside the church to the extent that you seem to believe the Christian counselor is trained to handle them outside the church, with or without the secular approval of a license? If they both have equal training, what would make the non-pastor licensed counselor more qualified than the non-licensed pastoral counselor?
Brother Todd,
Seminary degrees do not qualify an overseer in the local church. It is qualification of character and understanding of scriptures that keep the man of God on a daily basis,… qualified to lead the congregation. I am certain that counseling is not the main work of the overseer. It is preaching and teaching the Word of God. Of course edifying the congregation does invoke counseling at many different levels, yet that is not the primary role of the overseer.
So, Southwestern and other institutions may not choose to have counseling as a discipline for study some day…and along with that, no longer go down the licensure route any longer, but that decision will only deflect those men and women interested in being exposed to that type of information into other places or schools where they can seek a license if needed. Other schools may provide a much richer education in counseling when compared to a Seminary.
I’m interested to know if this is simply a budget crisis decision or if it is a philosophical direction. Licensure in the state is important for those adhering to the laws of the state, so licensure will in no way be erased, nor should it be. It is a discipline like any other professional work which requires certifications, etc.
Professional counseling is a much needed discipline in our world, even as the church engages in counseling at some level. Maybe this deflection by Southwestern will raise up a richer program with a biblical worldview elsewhere.
Just some thoughts….
Blessings,
Chris
Our church counselor is currently working on her doctorate in counseling. There’s a whole lot out there, that counselors need to know, beyond that which pastors need to know to lead a church. That’s the part folks just don’t seem to understand.
The thought that the simple application of biblical principles to any problem someone has should do the trick, simply isn’t the case.
By way of information, our counselor was previously a bank officer who had the desire to become a counselor, after her son was killed in a carjacking. She had a great desire to help people in similar situations of grief, to the extent the quit a highly-positioned job to go back to college to get her counseling credentials. And she’s pursuing the education, even 12 years later.
We became friends when I went to the hospital with our worship leader, the night her son was shot, so I’ve known her all through this entire process.
There simply is a need for counseling education and credentialing beyond that which most pastors could ever hope to attain.
Chris,
I agree with your first statement. I never said that a seminary degree qualifies an overseer. What it does is better equip them to serve within the local church through education in various areas of interest. In fact, I agree with Dr. Mohler who says that if the local church was doing it’s job then the seminaries would have no reason to exist. However, I do disagree with your statements about the work of the overseer. Yes, their primary concern is not counseling. Nor is it preaching and teaching (at least in the restricted sense in which you seem to mean it). It is all of these in balance. They have both an external ministry of preaching the gospel and an internal ministry of caring for the flock, which includes not just teaching but also care and counsel. The problem in our churches is that we have overemphasized the sermon at the expense of personal care. Yet if you look at places like Ephesians 4.11ff and 1 Peter 5.1ff (as well as the basis for the term ‘pastor’) you will see that a balance is what’s intended.
As for the remainder of your comment I direct you to my question to Bob: If they both have equal training, what would make the non-pastor licensed counselor more qualified than the non-licensed pastoral counselor? SWBTS is not moving away from the critical training; they’re moving away from the training demanded by a secular authority. Do you believe that this training is actually needed for the man to serve in God’s intended purpose. I pray that you don’t.
Bob,
You say, “There simply is a need for counseling education and credentialing beyond that which most pastors could ever hope to attain,” but still I ask you, is that the way it should be? Why credentialing? That is the church deferring to a secular authority which does not come under the guise of Scripture. Don’t you hold to sola Scriptura? Anyways, I think this is a perfect argument for the necessity of multiple elders within a congregation, if it so happens that one of the elders has not been fully equipped as “shepherd” then another elder can come alongside him inside the church to fulfill the intended balance (again, Ephesians 4.11ff)
Todd,
You said, “I’m not sure what to do with the shotgun spray of proof-texts and “parallels” that you are using to argue here. I will say, though, I do not believe that we can draw an accurate comparison between a licensed Christian counselor and a licensed teacher. The professional commitments are not the same.”
RP: I’m not sure what you mean here about the professional commitments not being the same. Is this covered in the remainder of this paragraph?
You said, “Counseling in the world is almost entirely based upon atheistic principles and it is much easier for these influences to impinge upon a counselor than it is for them to do so on a school teacher.”
RP: It is unclear from your reply if this statement comes from a lack of experience in the field of education or the field of counseling. Having received my teaching degree from a state university, I can assure you that the field is rife with secular influences. Ever heard of Dewey, Maslow, or Skinner? These men influenced not just the field of education, but counseling as well. You may not be aware, but there is a great deal of overlap between the two fields and a broad body of literature shared by both, most from secular scholars. I would say it is just as easy for a teacher as a counselor to have these influences impinge on them.
You also said: “Moreover, I think there is also a question of whether we should be seeking worldly permission to do something which is rightly within the calling of the church. Here there is a parallel with Christian education since most schools run by churches do not require secular licensing of their teachers.”
RP:In a world where pastors are already licensed by the state to solemnize marriages, I don’t see licensing of counselors as encroachment. It is not giving permission to counselors, but acknowledgment that standards have been met. When my wife sits for her NCLEX, and is licensed by the state as a Registered Nurse, it is not “permission” to be a nurse only, but also recognition that she has met minimum standards. Is this not an admirable purpose for counselors as well? Otherwise, just anyone can hang up a shingle and say they are a counselor. What’s to prevent this from happening?
You went on to say, “As far as the purpose of seminary, particularly in the SBC, yes, it is for the promotion and growth of the local church. The two examples you give, chaplaincy and secular professionals with seminary degrees are good examples of where we may go off course with this. Chaplaincy is a parachurch ministry, and as such it works to serve as an extension of the church. It goes out from the local church to do the care of the local church in its absence, but is in no means meant as a replacement for the local church (we see the same confusion in the various campus ministries). Similarly, why does the businessman have a seminary degree? One would hope it would be to educate and train them better to lead as a layperson within the local church. As Christians we are never called to seek knowledge for selfish reasons but are to always use in for the good of the community of believers we live among.”
RP: Your last sentence summarizes an incredibly xenophobic approach to Christianity that I find rather surprising in a climate where the word “missional” seems to be the biggest (ungrammatical) buzz going. I guess my reading of Matthew 13 is out of line then since the repeated phrase “the kingdom” must, in your reading, apply primarily to the church?
While I might agree that we are not to seek knowledge for selfish reasons, I think incredibly narrow to state that the only use a businessman should make of it is as a layperson within the local church. Without commenting on the unbiblical distinction between the professional clergy and laity and the call for “every member ministry,” I will suggest that such an approach does a serious, serious disservice to seminary degrees by relegating their usefulness solely to an ecclesiastical setting. What a tragedy. Once again, I’m not sure if such a sentiment stems from from your experience with what passes for seminary educations these days or your experience working with conscientious business owners who see God’s gifting and leading in life expressing itself in the realm of commerce, but I can assure you that in my field of business education and training, those with seminary degrees are not only surprisingly plentiful, but also outstanding and well-respected professionals in their field who place a great stock in their seminary training.
In my opinion, it is grievously short-sighted to suggest that a seminary degree’s only use should be found in a local church context. I am grateful that my friends who are professors at Boyce, Southern and Southeastern would also disagree with such a sentiment.
Brother Todd,
I think the local churches can do the job of seeing men aspire to overseer ….so I probably do agree with Al on that point….but, what a privilege to have the seminaries available for research and training.
The ministry of preaching and teaching is caring for the flock. At least according to Jesus. He instructed Peter to do just that…. “feed my sheep”.
A non-negotiable qualification of a man that oversees the flock is being able to teach….and those that work hard at preaching and teaching are worthy of double honor. So yes, there is no doubt that the primary edifying tool given to the pastors and teachers is the ability to explain the Word of God to the flock for its edification. That’s not to say that counseling is not part of the mix. But essentially it is only part and secondary. For instance, I will not conduct a marriage for a couple unless they have been through counseling with me (about a six month process)….but that is not so much that they get the counseling course and discount with the state, it is so that I can explain the scriptures to them and the gospel of God. Frankly, I could care less if I ever do a wedding. Edifying the church through explaining the Word of God is quite another matter.
So I agree with you to an extent, in that the Pastor does some counseling and nurturing, but that is not his primary work in the church by any stretch. In fact, much of the counseling work is servant oriented and can be something done very effectively through deacon ministry with both men and women.
There is also a segment of counseling that is well beyond the skill and work of the Pastor, such as working with schizophrenia and other mental disorders. That type of work is best handled by professionals trained to address the long term and ongoing counseling required to meet those needs. It would be best if those counselors were in the congregation. But, that is not always the case.
I’m still not sure if this is simply a financial problem keeping Southwestern from continuing the program to licensure….or if the intention is to lessen the counseling regiment and align it for the Pastor only. If that is the case,….then SWBTS will simply lose the students that will make this a professional choice….as other institutions will offer a more comprehensive and rigorous program leading to continued certification and licensure.
Blessings,
Chris
Chris,
It’s philosphical. I say that without comment. I’ll leave the merits of “integrationist” counseling vs. “nouthetic” counseling to people who enjoy talking past each other.
Chris,
I should clarify that by, “it’s philosophical”, I was referring to the question you asked back up in #11.
I recieved my MA in marriage and family counseling from SWBTS in 2006. I recieved by license for LPC in Texas in 2008. Since that time I have worked in severe mental health and as of now, I am working counseling for Texas Medicaid with children and adolescents who are in CPS custody, foster care, and/or kinship care. I have worked to pray Ephesians 1:18-19 to seek the filling for the Holy Spirit for guidance in sessions. I have lead adults and children both through the plan of salvation, been able to talk about God and their relationship with the Lord in numerous opportunities. As to date, I have never been denied the opportunity to share about Christ and teach biblical principles to clients. Do I always seize this opportunity? No, but that is my error. As most people, whatever field or ministry often miss opportunities that are provided. I feel that I was called to counsel those who are less fortunate and those who are suffering and hurting. However, without a state licensure, I would not be able to reach this population of people. I loved the education I recieved from SWBTS in the counseling program, the school of education, and the school of theology. My relationship with Christ and biblical principles complete shape the counselor that I am.
Todd,
Sorry I’m coming late to the conversation. You said, “Licensing requirements force Christian counselors to abide by specific laws that may or may not (depending upon the state) be in line with Scripture and/or the best interest of the church.”
Please help me understand, of the state laws regulating Counseling (depending on the state), specifically which of these regulations/rules/ethics violate Biblical Christianity?
If you need the the web address for Texas rules and regs, it’s http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/counselor/lpc_rules.shtm
Your input will be valuable in assisting with a practical critique of these laws you’re referring to.
Thanks.
Mike,
When you ask about rules there are a few that I can pull out in just a cursory glance at Texas’ statement. First, the issue of non-professional relationships seems to preclude the ability for a counselor to be a part of the local church to which their clients belong, which of course seems to fly in the face of the idea of Christian growth in community. The rules want to move towards a certain degree of sterility which is foreign to the communal nature of the Christian life as depicted in the New Testament.
Second, there is a great degree of ambiguity in the confidentiality laws which may keep a counselor from reporting sin to a church (who has the right to know) when that sin does not transgress any particular secular laws.
Third, there is a moral question as to whether Christians should bill for services rendered in counseling (a question I’ll just leave open for now).
Finally, we still have the issue of final authority, which seems to be vested in a body which does not adhere to Scripture as their guide. Instead of it being the church who recognizes and accredits their counselors it is a secular authority. This doesn’t mean that the authority is being abused, but it surely means that when push comes to shove they will not be looking to Scripture as their guide in solving problems. Various people have tried to attack this by referring to licensed teachers or clergy licensing, but the parallel fails. Counseling/discipling (which really is what counseling should be for believers) is an ecclesiatical function and as such the church has all the authority it needs to approve counselors for their people. This is not the same with roles like teacher or doctor which do not fall under the purview of the church. Moreover, if the state stood in the way of biblically sound clergy getting licensed (say by requiring them to marry homosexual couples if licensed) then I would argue against licensing clergy as well.
Now I know that many posts have drifted into practical theology and personal narrative instead of true biblical perspectives, so again I ask, is there any reason why we shouldn’t desire for our churches to be the place where counseling takes place? This may (and likely would) entail increasing the level of education in our leadership, but so what? Just keep in mind, there is no authority granted to the state that is greater than what we have already been given as the church.
I thoroughly enjoyed the article. Very poignant. I have thus far kept quiet, enjoying the responses left by all. These statements are not directed at anyone in particular, but may shed light on a few things that have been said.
First of all, the manner in which these changes have come about is less than appealing, dare I say appalling. The faculty were made aware only one day before the press release was delivered. Finances was sited as one reason for this shift. The next day SWBTS announced it has acquired several pieces of the dead sea scrolls. Coincidence? Also, there has been no mention of budget cuts. All faculty currently still have their jobs. Where is the money being saved? They are eliminating a program that houses five faculty and almost 300 students, only to replace it with a program that has two professors and a dozen students. This doesn’t seem like a financially savvy transition.
It is also somewhat degrading to the past and present students of this degree program to say, “Well, we’re creating a biblical program now.” What did we get? Heresy? And what about the five amazing professors who have worked tirelessly to make SWBTS counseling what it is? By the way, last year at the AACC World Conference SWBTS Counseling program cleaned house. Three students were recognized and awarded, the student chapter was recognized, and Dr. Ian Jones was given a lifetime achievement award! Must be doing something right. http://www.swbts.edu/campusnews/story.cfm?id=4EFC3F9E-15C5-E47C-F991412B392D107B
Consistently through the outreach ministry of The Baptist Marriage and Family Counseling Center people come to know Christ and receive healing in His presence. Undoubtedly, those doors will soon be closing.
If the licensing program had not been in place when I was looking at schools, SWBTS wouldn’t have attracted my attention. God called me to minister to the least of these. Many times, the least of these will not darken the doors of our churches. We must take the Gospel to them. I am not only training to be a counselor, I am preparing to be a missionary. By the discontinuation of this program, I feel Southwestern is saying that the people group God has laid on my heart is of little importance.
However, all that said, God is sovereign. Christ is King. And the power of the Spirit will not be trumped. People will still seek and acquire license. The Gospel will still be spread. And the Kingdom will be brought to those in need. Unfortunately for Southwestern they will no longer have a part in this vital aspect of the Kingdom.
Todd,
Your question is, “is there any reason why we shouldn’t desire for our churches to be the place where counseling takes place?”
I agree with you wholeheartedly. The church is where it should take place…for the body of Christ. With that in mind, let’s pretend you are a pastor (maybe you are, I dunno). I sit before you, along with another applicant. We desire to help you begin a counseling ministry at your church, but budget only allows for one part-time position. You’ve desired to start this ministry because with all of the many hats you wear, you need some help in this area.
So, Johnson (the guy sitting next to me) says, “Pastor Todd, I’m really good. I have a Master’s in Biblical Counseling from SWBTS.”
And I say, “I have a Master’s in Marriage and Family Counseling from SWBTS. I also have a state license which will allow me to work part-time at MHMR to supplement my income.”
Johnson: “I’m gonna work down the street at the H&R Block.”
I add, “Oh, by the way, I also carry one million dollars worth of liability insurance. (under my breath, with slight jest) In case anybody gets sue-happy.”
We both share a laugh as Johnson nervously straightens his Target suit jacket.
Johnson feeling the need to validate himself blurts out, “But what’s a license anyway, huh?!?! Psss…”
I return, “Well, it shows minimum competency. Only that I meet the state requirement.” I then turn to you and say, “Of course, as a representative of King Jesus I am held to a much higher standard than the state.”
“But I’m really good.” says Johnson sheepishly as we stroll out to lunch with the rest of the staff.
Now, back to your question. Yes, counseling should be done in the church. But what about all of those people down at MHMR, where Johnson will never be given the opportunity to work. I get to reach into those people’s lives as well. Sharing Christ’s love with the undesirables. And that’s what it’s all about.
Sorry for bringing in the Hokey Pokey reference.
No I’m not.
DJ,
Thank you for your illustration. You do bring up several issues that I think need to be hashed out for the church. However, none of them, do I believe, is persuasive for the need of licensing. The argument that a licensed counselor can reach people at MHMR seems strong, but how does that work when we apply it to other areas? If there are bar-tenders, shouldn’t there be Christian bar-tenders? If there are loan-sharks, shouldn’t there be Christian loan-sharks? If there are prostitutes, shouldn’t there be Christian prostitutes? Now, clearly this is hyperbole, but my point is, just as we wouldn’t use the gospel as a guise for getting into these professional settings, I don’t really think the gospel is a fitting guise for necessitating licensing among Christian counselors. We should first evaluate the setting and then, if it is a place where we are called to work, we should seek to spread the gospel there.
Moreover, please hear what I’m saying and not what I’m not. I do believe that it is okay to be a licensed counselor who is a Christian. However, when the emphasis is on serving the local church (as SWBTS’s is) we should be focusing on strengthening the counseling abilities of those who work within the church first and foremost, if not exclusively. As it stands, the presence of external Christian counseling has become an excuse for many ministers to slack in their calling or in the growth of their church. As well, like I cited above, ethical and confidentiality laws seem to preclude at worst, and are ambiguous on at best, whether a Christian counselor is even allowed to be joined in Christian community with their clients, which I believe is a violation of Scripture if they aren’t (and so, even if you counsel people with Christian worldviews, you might not be able to invite them to church with you, which is a problem).
Brother DJ,
I think you are probably right… SWBTS seems to have made a philosophical move here. It is the boards prerogative to do so,…and surely they have a good reason. This may be where I need more clarification.
Certainly, as Todd has argued, Pastors counsel….in fact most everyone in the church gives counsel of some sort. There are though,…levels of counseling that go beyond what the most capable Pastor may be able to provide in some circumstances, and that is where professional counselors are extremely important. Do they need to be licensed? Not necessarily. It is wise to receive a license from the state to comply with local or state laws for the benefit of those being counseled. Sure.
One thing that is certain. A state license will not impinge upon Christian values. A person in the church is free to make decisions with respect to his or her Christian values. Does having a state licensure help the church? Yes, in certain scenarios, …not all,…since the church is called to live within the laws of the state, and report on specific breaches of the law.
From what I have read so far…it appears that SWBTS will only lose those students that are seeking professional work in counseling. It would be wise for those seeking that type of work to look for their license and certifications at places other than SWBTS. These types of announcements should be clearly communicated to the students and the convention, so funding (or savings) can be directed in other ways for students seeking a counseling licensure.
Blessings,
Chris
Todd (and others)
I respect the philosophy that Dr. Patterson and you share regarding the purpose of a seminary. I happen to think that you are both defining it a bit too narrowly and I think you both are mistaken when you declare that “church-independent” counseling is unscriptural. But I understand your position and respect that you are attempting to follow God’s word.
I also happen to believe that you are both in the minority. My guess is that the majority of baptist pastors, when faced with a counseling situation or ministry that overwhelms them, would rather turn to another staff member who is licensed or be able to refer to a Christian counselor who is licensed. As president, Dr. Patterson should be implementing (and keeping) programs that our pastors want. He should not be reshaping SWBTS according to his own personal theology or agenda.
Let me begin by saying that I am not a counselor, nor do I hold a degree from SWBTS. I, however, worked as an Administrative Assistant in the Counseling programs while my husband attended seminary.I wasn’t going to say anything, even though I’ve wanted to comment on several of the above posts. However, after reading the last post by Todd I just can’t help myself. Todd you said,
“The argument that a licensed counselor can reach people at MHMR seems strong, but how does that work when we apply it to other areas? If there are bar-tenders, shouldn’t there be Christian bar-tenders? If there are loan-sharks, shouldn’t there be Christian loan-sharks? If there are prostitutes, shouldn’t there be Christian prostitutes?”
I find the comparison of a state counselor working at MHMR with any of the above “professions” reprehensible and extremely offensive! For 3 years I watched young students come into our program wide eyed and ready to serve others with a passion for Christ. They wanted to serve people whose greatest hope was found in Christ, and who needed someone to show them who He is. I do believe that SWBTS is a great foundational source of education in equipping our local churches…and hopefully beyond! What do you say to the people who are are going outside of the walls in order to draw people to Jesus? Do i believe you must have a state license to draw people to Christ? NO, but I do believe that we can work within the laws given, as Christ tells us to, and in His grace and mercy He allows others to be drawn into relationship with Him and new life begins.
I beg you to apologize for the comparison you made earlier…it is absolutely unnecessary in a mature conversation. I hope and pray God will open the door for others to pursue the dream He has placed in them to attain the education that will allow them to walk the halls and sit in rooms where the hurting are to be ministered to.
Todd,
You make a good point that a seminary’s purpose is about serving the local church. There’s quite possibly an argument to be made that while it is “okay” for a Christian to be an LPC, it isn’t a seminary’s job to train them for it. I’m just not convinced by your own statements that you really believe that.
Your illustration, while admittedly hyperbolic, was quite telling. You could have chosen Christian doctors, speech therapists, truck drivers, or hair stylists. Each field requies a state certification and each field needs a Christian presence, but it’s simply not a seminary’s job to train them. Instead you chose bar tenders, loan sharks, and prostitutes. Aside from the fact that only one of those is actually analagous, the very clear implication is that the Christian LPC’s discipline is ubiblical (which, incidentally, is the position that’s been advocated from down the hall in Price Hall for years.)
Kerri,
I understand your disgust and I hope that you kept reading the rest of what I said. I acknowledged that my analogy was severe and stated that I was wanting to make the point that “just as we wouldn’t use the gospel as a guise for getting into these professional settings, I don’t really think the gospel is a fitting guise for necessitating licensing among Christian counselors.” We should never try to rationalize doing something using practical theology. Even if we believe it is “for the benefit of the gospel”, unless we have a strong biblical basis we should be careful what we say the church and Christians need to do. We decry this type of thinking when it leads to “missionary dating/marriage” and yet rest upon it in the realm of counseling. It should not be that way, and that was the point I was attempting to make.
Chris, Aaron, et al.,
“There are though,…levels of counseling that go beyond what the most capable Pastor may be able to provide in some circumstances, and that is where professional counselors are extremely important.”
“My guess is that the majority of baptist pastors, when faced with a counseling situation or ministry that overwhelms them, would rather turn to another staff member who is licensed or be able to refer to a Christian counselor who is licensed.”
Again I ask, should it be this way? I mean seriously, is there any higher calling than being an minister of God’s Word. Yet when did this come to be defined so narrowly as simply a preacher? Doesn’t a true pastor feel overwhelmed and under qualified to preach on Sunday morning– if he doesn’t then there are some humility issues that need to be worked out– and yet how many pastors outsource their pulpit all that easily? In the same manner, when I pastor feels under qualified to counsel he should do the same that he does when he feels under qualified to preach. If you don’t feel like a good counselor then (a) pick up a book, (b) take a class, (c) call an elder to assist who is skilled here and be mentored by him, (d) pray, or (e) get out of the ministry. Whatever you do, don’t just sit around twiddling your thumbs or going out playing golf and taking three hour lunch meetings. Being an overseer is an unbelievably weighty calling; if you can’t find some way to handle “shepherd[ing] the flock of God that is among you” then what are you doing? There are way too many pastors who went into the ministry because somebody’s grandma told them they we’re a good little Bible student and yet have no real business being there. Maybe feeling overwhelmed is the sign to some of them they need to work harder; maybe to some it is the sign to get out. Either way, God will equip his body to take care of his body without any need to worry about a matter as trivial as licensing.
Brother Todd,
I am not disagreeing with some of what you have said. But, it is naïve to believe that a Pastor can meet every counseling need. There are situations that are out of the Overseers hands, and are best resolved by the deacon (servants in the church) and/or licensed professional counselor. You seem to want to paint with a broad brush which is not supported biblically. If you believe overseers are to directly meet all counseling situations as part of feeding the flock, then you are simply mistaken. Can they be dealt with in a manner that is best for the person being counseled? Sure they can,…but the best and most productive counseling may not be at the hands of the Overseer. Does this make the overseer lazy or incompetent to shepherd the flock. Not in any sense. In fact, it will show wisdom on his part to include those that will most benefit the one being counseled.
I also agree that a license for counseling is not required in the ministry. That is a fact. Maybe that is SWBTS’s new philosophy. I am ok with that…. This only means that those students seeking professional licensure and certification will need to apply to school elsewhere. Yet, there is little doubt, that there are opportunities where a church can benefit greatly from someone that is licensed, which could mean that continuing education is required. That is not such a bad thing. It sounds like you prefer that ministers (whether overseers or other)not be licensed by the state. I do not think licensure is inherently bad or lacks benefit.
Blessings,
Chris
Todd, you state:
Being an overseer is an unbelievably weighty calling; if you can’t find some way to handle “shepherd[ing] the flock of God that is among you” then what are you doing?
But why do you not apply the same logic to other ministries of the church. You believe the pastor should be able to handle all the counseling needs of his flock. Do you also believe the pastor should be able to handle all the worship needs of his flock? If so, why do we have music ministers? Do you believe the pastor should be able to handle all the educational needs of his flock? If so, why do we have ministers of education? Do you believe the pastor should be able to meet all the needs of children in his flock? If so, why do we have children’s ministers? I could go on and on obviously, but I think you understand my point. Why do you single out counseling as the only other ministry that pastors should be able to bear without the need of others?
Aaron and Chris,
Just to address your comments together (as they overlap in places), I do not necessarily believe that the burden of counseling should fall exclusively on a single (head) pastor. A lot of writing has collected here, but in previous posts I have remarked that this gives strong support for the multiple elder structure of polity and that a pastor who feels overwhelmed by counseling could consider calling an elder to join the church that has skill in this area. My point is though, as there are many hands that can (and should) be performing the care and counseling in a church, the pastor still needs to be leading out in this area as it is certainly one of the realms in which his calling lies. Pastoral negligence (in the true intention of the word ‘pastor’) is simply not an option for the New Testament minister, though many today seem to choose that path.
Moreover, I think Aaron proves my point. The pastor may not necessarily be able to handle all of the music and education and youth ministry needs that his flock has, and so what does he do? He does not say, “Well, in lieu of music this week, just go listen to a Casting Crowns CD sometime tonight,” nor does he say, “Just turn on Veggie Tales for your kids and leave them at home during services.” No, instead he seeks the assistance of other qualified men with giftings in these areas, who are then tested and voted on by the congregation. These are areas that fall under ecclesiastical authority, just like counseling the body, and as such are the responsibility for the pastor to perform or to find qualified men to come alongside him and share the burden. This takes different shapes depending upon what form of polity you adhere to, but what they all share in common is that none of them necessitate the authority to serve to be bestowed by any delegation other than the church.
Brother Todd,
I don’t disagree with your last post. There are situations though,…that may take more counseling than what is able to be performed by the local church or the gifting that a congregation may have at any point in time. It really comes down to the Pastor/Pastors love for that member….in order to try and come up with the most effective counseling for that member,….that being the ultimate goal. The church can and does have the best potential answers, yet some churches are immature, or not yet gifted to adequately perform the potential as of yet. Hopefully that will change as the church matures and gains members that can edify one another in love.
I think though… those practical calls by the Pastor/Pastors and other Member Ministers relevent to counseling may be different than the question of licensure….it does not preclude licensing as a worthing and needed pursuit.
But, I think I understand your point of view….
Blessings,
Chris
Todd,
It sounds like you’re talking about the church as if it were a building. But, as the bible clearly states, the Church is not a building, rather it’s a body of believers. Just because a pastor might seek assistance from or refer to a counselor outside of his building, that doesn’t mean he’s seeking help from outside of the church. God will work how He wants to work. Sometimes it will be through a church pastor and sometimes through a counselor. Why set limits on the ways God may choose to work?
Leah,
No, I don’t mean to talk about the church as a building, but as the local church. I think just general experience tells us that there is a vast difference between the universal church and the local church. Yes, there is a unity and hopefully a shared belief among all who bear the name of ‘Christian’, but the body as described in much of the New Testament, particularly the areas where authority is given and oversight is discussed, is the local assembly. I believe that all Christians are called to be a part of a local church and that it is that local church’s responsibility to love and care for them, no matter how big the issue.
In fact, one of the biggest issues that I see with external Christian counseling for believers (as well as many other parachurch ministries such Baptist Campus Ministries) is that they have a tendency to seek their own existence first over and above the need for pointing people back into the fellowship of the local church. Once they lose the focus on where true growth is meant to occur the temptation is great to act out of self-preservation and not with an eye fixed on Scripture. As a Baptist I am glad that we have a strong tradition of placing primacy on the local church. We abandon this at our peril.
Todd,
Honestly, I have to tell you I’m a bit offended at the comparison of godly men and women counseling and ministering to broken people to asking parents to leaving kids at home with Veggie Tales. You have offered a gross misrepresentation of what Christian counselors are doing, both in and out of the church, all over the world. But I have been guitly of hyperbole to make my own point, too.
I guess where you and I differ the most (in this discussion) is here… You state the pastor, “seeks the assistance of other qualified men,” and I agree. I just believe that the majority of pastors would seek licensed counselors as these qualified men (and women). And I think the seminary should honor the wishes of the churches it serves.
Brother Todd,
Getting back to the gist of the post. It appears that SWBTS has determined that the counseling it can provide without licensure is adequate for those whom they are called to educate.
All this means is that those students looking to be licensed to practice professionally in a state, will have to look outside of SWBTS for such credentials. This may or may not have anything to do with comparing the type of education one might recieve at SWBTS in counseling from this point forward…only time will tell how effective and comprehensive the training will be.
What is certain though, is that men and women looking for licensure….they will not find that opportunity at SWBTS. The decision at SWBTS has little to do with the level or adequacy of counseling that someone will receive in and through the membership of any local church.
Blessings,
Chris
I agree with Dee… I am a graduate of SWBTS, with a M.Div.B.L. and a Master of Arts in Christian Counseling. During my 7 years as a student I often felt that there was an underlying spirit against women in any kind of ministry. The homemaker degree seems to go great with that. I had great respect for Dr. Hemphill, who was the president during most of my studies at SWBTS. When Dr. Patterson was coming on board, I had heard many negative remarks about his extreme traditional views (especially about the role of women). I do not know if it is accurate, but I heard that women are no longer admitted to the M.Div. program. The elimination of the Christian counseling in my humble opinion has very little to do with what was disclosed, and a lot to do with leadership views against it. During my last few semesters at SWBTS, Dr. Patterson instituted the whole thing that female counseling students and staff could not wear trousers during counseling and work hours… Come on, now! How about coming up with a rule that we can no longer wear jewelry and need to wear a hat over our head?