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The Gypsy Pentecostal Classified Ad Exorcist
Posted by David Rogers in Bible & Theology, Church & Missions
A Case Study on Interdenominational Collaboration on the Mission Field
I am going to tell the following story as accurately as possible, to the degree I remember it, and then, at the end, make some comments about what happened and its implications for mission work in general, and especially for IMB workers overseas.
It was the year 2000. I and my family had recently moved to the city of Mérida, Spain (pop. 50,000) with the assignment of working toward the planting of the first Baptist church in that city. We had no core group—zero—with which to begin. Other than the 8 to 10 people who attended Sunday services at the Iglesia Evangélica Española (a WCC-member denomination formed by the merger of Spanish Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, and Congregationalists), the rest of the approximately 200 known Protestants in town were Gypsy Pentecostals, spread out between three local congregations of the Iglesia Filadelfia (or “Philadelphia Church” denomination).
Although we had already spent 10 years in the country (five in the region of Extremadura—of which Mérida is the capital—as missionary pastor and wife in the city of Badajoz, at the first, and, up to that time, only Baptist church in the region), and were reasonably fluent in the language, seeking to plant a Baptist church from zero in a place like Mérida was, needless to say, a rather daunting task. Part of our original strategy plan involved massive literature distribution, door-to-door distribution of the Jesus film on video, and extensive open-air evangelism with the participation of volunteer short-term youth teams, both from the States, as well as other places in Spain, and Latin America. Especially important, however, were the recruitment of additional team members, concentrated prayer and spiritual warfare (featuring a series of prayer-walking teams from the States), and the intentional development of redemptive relationships in the community.
We were about a year into this strategy, seeing some limited results for some of our ideas, but, as of yet, no professions of faith, no disciples being made, and the increasing feeling we were “banging our heads against the wall.” About this time, I got a phone call from Hermano Antonio (or Brother Antonio), a local gypsy pastor/evangelist, inviting me to his home, and telling me he had something important he wanted to talk to me about.
I agreed to meet Hermano Antonio at his home, and was warmly received by him and his wife, and shared a cup of coffee and a piece of cake with them, as well as a brief time of introductory fellowship in the Lord. He then proceeded to tell me about a plan he had concocted in which he placed an ad in a local classified ad magazine, stating more or less the following: “Are you having problems with nightmares, seeing things, hearing voices, and other strange phenomena? Call Hermano Antonio at such-and-such a phone number.” He told me how God had given him a ministry of spiritual deliverance, and how he was already getting a significant response to the ads, and was being used of God to visit these people in their homes and help them to find freedom from demonic bondage. The only problem, he explained, was that, being a gypsy, a good percent of the people who were being set free through his ministry had cultural prejudices and barriers which prevented them from being effectively followed up in the context of the Gypsy Pentecostal church. His proposal was that I, as a non-gypsy, accompany him on his visits, and that he hand over the non-gypsy people who were set free to me, in order that I might continue with their spiritual follow-up.
Needless to say, I was both intrigued by as well as nervous about this possibility. The prospect of having a ready-made group of spiritual contacts who were open to studying the Bible and being discipled definitely held its share of appeal to someone in my position as a pioneer church planter. And, although my previous ministry in Spain had led me into various situations in which I had ministered to people with demonic bondage, the unique way in which Hermano Antonio framed his ministry seemed strange and rather unorthodox to someone from my background. After praying and thinking about it for several days, though, I informed him that I would be willing to accompany him on a trial visit.
When the time for the visit came, it was agreed I would go along as an observer and silent prayer partner. Hermano Antonio called a Spanish couple who had called and left their number with him, and arranged for a visit in their home that evening. He explained to them that they needed to have two Bibles ready and sitting on the counter when he arrived. Upon ringing the doorbell, a middle-class man and wife in their mid-30’s opened the door. Hermano Antonio asked them about the phenomena they had been experiencing, and they shared openly a story of assorted occurrences typically associated with demonic oppression. He had them bring the Bibles previously requested, and opened them to several passages dealing with the power of Jesus over the power of Satan, and His ability to set captives free. He asked them if they wanted to be set free. They both replied “yes.”
Now, the story gets a little weird. Hermano Antonio then asked them to turn off the lights, which they did. He then led the woman in a prayer, renouncing the demons in her life, repenting of her sin, and trusting in Christ for her deliverance. Next, he attempted to do the same with her husband, but he went into what appeared to be a catatonic trance. He was able to communicate, but it was evident to all of us present that it was not him, but rather forces that controlled him, that were moving his lips. He was unable to say the prayer suggested by Hermano Antonio, or proclaim that Jesus was Lord. Hermano Antonio began to directly address the demon(s), and command him (them) to leave. The man’s wife, who had already said the prayer, began to pray out loud, crying out for her husband’s deliverance. The husband then passed out, and Hermano Antonio, who had been praying with his hands on him, laid him down on the floor. Hermano Antonio continued to pray over him. He asked the woman if her husband was wearing any type of medallion. It turned out that he was, in fact, wearing a medallion bearing the image of a local saint. He then proceeded to take the medallion off the man. And, there was an immediate visible response, as he momentarily seemed to gain consciousness, and become attentive to what Hermano Antonio was saying to him. However, he then relapsed into a state of trance. Hermano Antonio continued to pray, binding the demons who were tormenting the man, while his wife and I continued to pray and look on. Hermano Antonio then asked the wife if there were any other idolatrous images in the house, and she quickly brought out several pictures of saints and the Virgin Mary, which Hermano Antonio proceeded to tear into shreds. Once again, the man responded visibly almost immediately, and came out of his trance. He seemed to not know why he was there lying on the floor. Hermano Antonio asked him if he were aware of what had been happening, and he said he was not. He was eventually able to lead the man into repeating the prayer with him, verbally renouncing the influence of the devil in his life.
After all this (which had gone on for about an hour-and-a-half), the couple were encouraged not to be afraid, to pray, and read their Bible, and were told we would get back in touch with them the next day. They seemed relieved, and we left, thinking God had won a big victory in their lives that night. The next day, however, when both Hermano Antonio and I tried on various occasions to get in touch with them, they, at first, did not answer the phone, and eventually let us know they did not wish to have further contact.
On another evening the same week, Hermano Antonio invited me to accompany him to a service at the Gypsy Pentecostal church in a nearby town. It was not the first time I had been to a service in the Iglesia Filadelfia. But I was not prepared for what I was going to see that night. As is normally the case, upon entering, the men were all seated on one side of the auditorium, and the women on the other. The music, played and sung in indigenous gypsy style, was very loud and animated. When it came time to pray, everyone prayed aloud simultaneously, many in tongues. When it came time to preach, there were several messages, first by the local pastor (or, in this case, the candidato, or pastor-in-training); next by “yours truly” (who, as a visiting minister, was expected, according to their custom, to give a word of greeting and exhortation); and finally, by Hermano Antonio. The content of the messages was generally sound and spiritually edifying. However, after all this, Hermano Antonio led the people in the congregation to move all of the chairs from the middle of the room, and to place them along the walls. Next, a teenage girl was brought out, he came up to her, laid hands on her, prayed for her, and commanded the demon in her to leave. She was then attended to by others who were present at the service. After this, they turned on a tape of loud gypsy music, and the people came up to Hermano Antonio one by one, and, as he touched them on the forehead, they went spinning off, like whirlybirds in a trance. This went on for 20 or 30 minutes, while I stood by and observed. Eventually, we left, and Hermano Antonio took me in his car, in order to take me home for the night.
On the way home, we talked about the possibility of me working with him in order to do the follow-up for those who experienced spiritual deliverance through his exorcism ministry. I explained to him that I had thought and prayed about it, and did not feel a confirmation from the Lord that I should do this. I explained my misgivings, and asked him about the reasons behind some of what I perceived to be the more ritualistic and eccentric aspects of how he worked, such as asking the people to have two Bibles ready, turning the lights off, taking people’s idols and destroying them without their permission, and the “whirlybird” episode. He answered that the gypsy people were a very superstitious people, and that he thought it was helpful for them to see external manifestations of God’s presence. I told him I wished God’s blessings on his ministry, but I would not be able to continue to accompany him on his visits. I think he understood.
Fast-forward a couple of years. Little by little, through much prayer, evangelism, and hard work, a few souls came to Christ, a few believers moved in from out of town, and the Baptist church of Mérida began to take root and grow. During the same time, Hermano Antonio continued his exorcism ministry, and was able to find a non-gypsy Pentecostal believer from a nearby town who was willing to accompany him, and was following up on a group of about 20 people who had received Christ through his ministry. On one occasion, when we, as the Baptist mission, were organizing a summer evangelistic campaign, and did not have our own place to meet, one of the local Filadelfia churches graciously allowed us to hold our morning devotion times, and orientation and training sessions, in their church building. A few months later, a local gypsy pastor began to regularly attend our morning worship services (at his church, they only had evening services), saying he was spiritually enriched by the depth of teaching of the Word of God we offered. From time to time, I would run into Hermano Antonio and his wife on the streets of Mérida, would exchange warm greetings, and wish God’s blessing upon them. A few years later, one of the Filadelfia churches invited some of the believers from the Baptist church to lead in a ministry for troubled youth in a conflictive neighborhood in which they were working, which they did with some degree of success…
And now, my thoughts and observations on the whole thing…
1. The kingdom of God is bigger than my ministry, your ministry, the ministry of one church, or that of the IMB or SBC. As Jesus told His disciples, when they told him they found someone casting out demons in His name who wasn’t with them, and tried to stop him, “Do no stop him, for whoever is not against you is for you” (Luke 9:49–50).
2. There are certain folks doing the work of God’s kingdom who will choose to go about things a different way than we do. Sometimes, their ways of doing things, and beliefs and values that underlie them, are so different, that it is not conducive to work directly with them in certain ministry projects. This, however, does not necessarily preclude having Christian fellowship with them, and/or collaborating with them on certain other ministry projects. Neither does it mean that these people are not legitimate channels of the power of God in the lives of other people.
3. On the international mission field (and indeed many times on the home mission field as well), the work of Satan is very real, and a very real impediment to the advance of God’s kingdom. At the risk of being accused of “seeing a demon behind every bush,” my experience has led me to believe there are often many more people out there suffering affliction at the hands of demonic forces than what we, as Baptists, are many times aware. A key to seeing spiritual breakthrough in many areas of the world is taking the work of Satan seriously, and aggressively seeking to see people set free from demonic bondage. Particularly in areas of the world with a strong Roman Catholic background, we should not underestimate the evil spiritual power associated with idolatrous practices and traditions that have often been promoted, to some degree, by authorities within the Catholic Church itself.
4. As missionaries, we need an unusual combination of both spiritual openness and biblical discernment as we pray and think through with whom we can work together, and in what particular projects. It is important that in our training and orientation as IMB workers these issues are addressed, and missionaries go out prepared to deal with them appropriately. It is not conducive, however, to have hard and fast rules about such things, that take out of the hands of those missionaries God has called and sent out the prerogative of praying and seeking Him on their own (together with wise counsel and appropriate supervision) regarding the best way to deal with these situations.
5. Being a missionary often involves getting involved in some pretty serious spiritual warfare. The cost in our own lives and that of our families is often high. We really need to do the best job we can to support those who go into difficult areas and take the gospel of spiritual freedom to lost souls with our fervent prayers.
What thoughts and observations would you add?
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David,
I agree with 1 through 5. Period. I suppose that may be attributable to the fact that our first mission trip was to Haiti, in 1970, and our second was again to Haiti, in 1975. We went with a group with OMS International, who plants churches in Haiti called simply the Evangelistic Church of Haiti, and I never saw any of the weirdness you mention in your (most interesting) article.
Perhaps it is, that with our scale of living here, we ignore the devil in our prosperity, which I think he likes. It’s almost as if we don’t think his work is all that real.
I’ve seen demon possession, heard voodoo drums in the night, and witnesses voodoo rites from a distance. I count it a privilege that God let me see all that, early on in my Christian life.
Good post.
David,
I’ve never been on the mission field and can only imagine what it would be like to offer the salvation I have in my western imagry and try to convey it into images for another culture. I sure would have to allow the Holy Spirit to interpret what I would say. I may even have a greater appreciation of tongues if God had called me to this great task.
In Jesus’ day, everyone was superstitious. Whatever the Apostles did as they started churches was groundbreaking faith. Occasionally, there was strife generated by the dual efforts of individuals in ministry. Some mixtures never blend. The dispute in Acts 15:37-40 is a good example. By parting and continuing your call in ministry (even though there was no strife), the final result will be accomplished; whether for good or not. I like your point #2 above because it points to the individual faith we must step out on. Just doing things different for the sake of being different would not be something God would bless, however, our call and the faith of that call must be placed in action in order to prove what God has given us. Sometimes we may have to set aside the things that we Baptist have already proven here in the US and stretch it a little, or maybe allot. I see the events throughout the Bible being a single act of faith and not being duplicated again. Too many people want to see the fleece thing duplicated as if it is a charm or symbol of faith. Many of our churches here in the US want to duplicate previous events because of the positive results experienced. I would rather do what God says to do in the now and forget every faith event that got me here so my future faith remained fresh.
David,
About point #4. I know you don’t work for the IMB now, but do you know if the IMB or NAMB has any “hard and fast rules about” working together with people from other backgrounds and beliefs on certain projects? What kind of freedom are missionaries given in this area?
Bob,
I agree that the devil is active all over the world, even here in the good ole’ US of A, as well. A lot of times his activity is masked, as you mention, by our prosperity and intellectualism. But he is just as happy, I believe, to keep people in bondage through one way as through another. I do, think, however, that even in the USA, there is more “weird” occultic-type stuff going on than what we are many times aware. And, that, as the Church, we need to be prepared to help people find freedom in Christ from demonic bondage.
Bruce,
Yes indeed. In the work of the Lord, we should be careful not to try to put God in a box, and predict what He is going to do. We must, however, at the same time, do our best to be careful students of His Word, and follow, the best we are able, what we understand to be His guidance, both through the Word, and the day-to-day leading of the Holy Spirit.
Andrew,
My answer to your questions here is a bit complex. I refer you to what I have written previously on the following post:
http://loveeachstone.blogspot.com/2006/05/historical-documents-baptist_29.html
In general, I think it is good that the IMB (and NAMB) have some principles, and even guidelines, on these matters. But, at least for a time (perhaps not so much now), there was an increasing tension on the field and nervousness about getting out-of-line regarding new policies on these matters. It seemed, from some of the things we were reading from BoT members in the States, that certain people in the States thought things were getting out of hand with the missionaries, and that they needed to be reined in, to make sure their practices were more in line with “clear Baptist identity,” (e.g. a general lack of trust in the doctrinal soundness and spiritual discernment of those who were actually on the field).
Andrew,
See also this post:
http://www.sbcimpact.net/2009/04/01/planting-churches-together/
Our settings won’t allow me to post two hyper-links in the same comment.
Brother David,
This post reminds me of a similar experience I had where people were casting out demons, people were speaking in tongues….they even rearranged the room so that this could take place, even one boy had convulsions. All this was in Seminole, TX. So this is not uncommon here in America as well.
What I have found during these last 30 years of observing and intentionally walking around with some of these folks is a common denominator. They all are very fascinated with the miraculous, not necessary the miracles. So much of the stuff that occurs was obviously psychological, but demonic none the less. Demons are real, and will take any advantage. Christians should stand ready to move with Christ as you have alluded to in Luke 9.
So the point #1, it was earlier in ministry that I may have given more attention to these folks acting out than I give today…. for instance, I take the Luke passage to mean …. that there will always be folks casting out demons or at least looking like it…but the true test of the disciple is following Him (Christ), so in other words…. Christ might say… “As you are making disciples, these sorts of activities may, can, and do occur,… but do not be so concerned with these acts…follow me”. This is confirmed by what Christ continues to teach the disciples later in chapter 9….
Luke 9:55-62 But He turned and rebuked them, [and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; (56) for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."] And they went on to another village. (57) As they were going along the road, someone said to Him, “I will follow You wherever You go.” (58) And Jesus said to him, “The foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.” (59) And He said to another, “Follow Me.” But he said, “Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father.” (60) But He said to him, “Allow the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim everywhere the kingdom of God.” (61) Another also said, “I will follow You, Lord; but first permit me to say good-bye to those at home.” (62) But Jesus said to him, “No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”
#2. We must always be discerning about how we walk before Christ in ministry. Prayer is the best friend we can have as we love our brothers and sisters that look and act differently than we do.
#3. I agree again, Satan is very real and is set against the work of the kingdom. I agree with the Apostle John…. “guard (phulassō) yourselves from idols”. This phrase is what the Christian is to actively follow.
#4. There is always a tendency to crowd out the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives with religious idols. The hard and fast rules should always be sacrificed on the alter of truth, so that how we obey is Spirit led.
#5. There really is a high cost…and we need more men and women ready to be in the field, because the harvest is ready. Sometimes we tend to like the cheaper route of affluence and Spiritless tradition, especially in America. But, it seems that Christ calls us back to the end of Luke’s passage in chapter 9,….where he implores …. “but as for you, go and proclaim everywhere the kingdom of God”.
Good things to think about in this post.
Blessings,
Chris
Chris,
Good thoughts.
This reminds me of the poignant, and insightful, title of my dad’s book:
“Believe in Miracles, but Trust in Jesus.”
http://www.amazon.com/Believe-Miracles-but-Trust-Jesus/dp/1581340761
Yes, your father’s comment about Genesis 1:1 is so very true! The miraculous does exist and is hard to doubt….
Blessings,
Chris
Chris,
Man, you need to get a Gravatar. You are, after all, a regular contributor here.
David,
Thanks for the links. I do enjoy reading your writings. Any plans for a book in the future? I am very interested in these things relating to church planting overseas and working with people from various backgrounds because I feel called to the overseas missions.
A few more questions (I’m so inquisitive today):
Did you ever feel that the IMB’s guidelines were applied too restrictively on your (or someone else’s) ministry?
Do you foresee more guidance or issues stemming from the question of interdenominational cooperation in the near future within SBC entities?
Andrew,
Thanks for the compliment on my writing. I have an idea or two for a book, but, for now, am just trying to find the time to keep up with my doctoral studies (in addition to my regular job, and family and other ministry responsibilities). Eventually, though, I would like to tie in my studies to some writing projects.
As far as my own ministry is concerned, I was never officially reprimanded per se for going against IMB guidelines. One trustee (whom I will not name here), however, upon visiting us on the field, informed me that a particular project I was working on for a transdenominational church planter training course would not comply with IMB guidelines. Others within the IMB, however, had encouraged me, and continued to encourage me, in that particular project.
As far as others are concerned, I don’t know if you were following the blogs and stories back then, but back around the 2006 convention, there was quite a stir about an IMB couple in West Africa who were threatened with dismissal by their regional leader for working together on a church planting team with some folks from the Christian & Missionary Alliance. Eventually, this decision was reversed. And then, the couple in question resigned of their own accord. But, the dynamic was still in the air. The message was served. And, missionaries on the field, around the world, were nervous about what they did, and who they told about it, according to the particular personality type and proclivities of the individuals involved.
From what I have been able to gather, a good part of this dynamic, in general, was tied in to a lack of confidence on the part of a group of trustees, representing a group of influential people in the convention, in Jerry Rankin’s leadership, and the direction he was taking the IMB. From what I understand, much of that dynamic within the BoT has since eased quite a bit. Also, since Dr. Rankin has announced his retirement, he himself is no longer a “lightning rod,” so to speak, regarding these issues.
However, it could be that the appointment of the new President of the IMB, whoever that may end up being, stirs up the waters again related to some of these same issues. That is one reason in particular why I still sense it is important to write about these things, and educate those in the churches who may happen to read about what is going on… at least, from my perspective.
I have a concern with “Interdenominational” here in the US. We didn’t start out that way, I don’t think, and it is an issue trying to mix it within established denominations. My concern is, if it begins with interdenomination efforts, what would the end result be?
Bruce,
That is a very broad, general question that is hard to answer without any more specifics. I have written over the past years on a number of issues related to it. In general, though, I think the biblical doctrine of the unity of the Body of Christ at large needs to be recognized, and complied with appropriately more than has, perhaps, been done at times in the past. However, on the specific strategies and pitfalls related to how to best do this, you would need to ask some more specific questions.
That, by the way, is one of the subjects I am thinking of pursuing on my dissertation (when, and if, I ever make it that far).
Ok…I’ll see what I can dig up for an avatar…. The shadow is pretty drab…
-cj
Very good post, David. Folks in the West should not undervalue the long spiritual heritage they have there. Yes, the work of the evil one exists in the US but it is much hindered by the far greater power of millions of Christians praying and acting in faith. On the mission field no such advocacy has existed and people are trapped in a darkness that no verbal apologetic can overcome. Almost all of our work only has breakthrough when spiritually dark forces are overcome- and then overcome again and again!
For those wondering we have a much more relaxed relationship with the BoT and this has had great effect. We have appropriate partnerships on many levels with all kinds of folks. My own greatest concern when partnering has much more to do with strategy than theology- though in reality the two are closely tied.
Thanks for pointing to the spiritual oppression that M’s have to face on the field. It is very real. It is amazing to me how many healthy families come the field and then have to leave due to illnesses that they can not overcome. Once back in the US their health miraculously returns. My wife has been sick all year- one flu bug after another- but she is never sick in the US. No, hygiene is not the issue. We know what the issue is. Keep praying for us!
David,
The interdenominational world is broad, too. When I look at the Statement of Faith from Group.com it is only 4 lines long and AWANA is about 4+ pages long. I think the approach of the interdenominational mindset is that they want to leave out what specifically identifies each denomination and tries to build from there. It seems that people would have an identity problem from the beginning and it would have an affect on how they focus their faith in everyday life. I’m only able to see this from my present position of faith and it is difficult to perceive how I would start again with this new information. One thing I know is that when I began my Christian walk it was in a very legalistic church and I have gravitated to what I believe today, some 30 years later. I think we all do that as we grow in grace. Of course, I may be answering my own concern here. I’ll try to think of more specifics.
Strider,
Thanks for the affirmation, and for the good news about the relationships with the BoT.
As I am typing this comment, now, I have prayed for you, your wife, and for all those who are working with you there in “Middle Earth.” It is my hope that your participation here at SBC Impact can be a channel through which more people would be led to take up the burden to pray for you regularly.
Bruce,
Yes, indeed, there are many different scenarios, and things to sort through, when you think about interdenominational collaboration in ministry projects. Sometimes, it is tempting to think that the easiest (and therefore, best) option is just to not mess with it at all. The other extreme is to be open to whatever, and never use any discernment.
My point in this particular “case study” is that these types of things must be handled, for the most part, on a case-by-case basis. There is much blessing and value to interdenominational collaboration, but certain pitfalls to be avoided, as well.
Strider,
You are exempt from putting your picture on the Gravatar, since you need to maintain a certain level of anonymity.
But, you could put a picture of Viggo Mortensen or something.
Just a thought…
I just got back from our convention and I am on my way to my daughter’s musical. haven’t even read the post.
But it is one of the truly great titles for a post I have ever seen.
Very interesting, David.
I have a question. I have been in full-time ministry for nearly 30 years and have had 2 confrontations with demonic forces (that I knew about).
You said that on the mission field there is a lot of spiritual warfare that goes on.
Is it just less common here in the US? Or is it that we ignore it?
David Miller,
It is that we ignore it. And the result is that instead of common-sense biblically grounded understanding about the supernatural, the fringes (ie Todd Bentley, Benny Hinn, etc) exploit the biblical illiteracy of our American Christianity.
I myself have been in the vocacational ministry for less than half your time in ministry (13 years) yet have encountered more the manifestations that characterize “spiritual warfare” than you — demons, healings, tongues, prophecising, etc. (I could provide details in another venue but not here as I don’t want to sidetrack the discussion.)A great deal is false but accepted as real because of the charlatans playing off that illiteracy. But more of it is real than is known but played off by recognized “theologians and scholars” because they would rather rationalize most everything because of — biblical illiteracy.
We in the US would rather ignore it than be branded a sensationalist.
Thanks again for writing that stretches us. My experience continues to be that we simply cannot put God in a box. If there is one thing I have learned over the years is that I am a novice when it comes to understanding the spiritual world.
I believe God has placed all of us in His Body with different strengths and giftings. Just because Hno. Antonio does not see, respond, minister, interpret the same way I do, does not mean God did not place him within the Body for a particular reason that the Spirit realizes is needed.
Like you, my giftings and role in the Kingdom are in different areas than those given to Hno. Antonio. I try to take the attitude of a humble learner, respecting that my brother may be doing exactly what God has called him to do, without judging or criticizing based on my limited knowledge due to my upbringing, background, traditions, education, etc.
Where I have grown much over the years is realizing that there is a whole lot more to the whole spiritual warfare subject than I can explain. I am learning to trust those placed in the Body with these understandings and tend to step aside and allow them to function when the situation calls for it. I become one of those silent “prayer partners” who try to pray while these things are going on, but admit to being extremely distracted by wanting to observe all that is going on!
All the above to say, I think, either intentionally, (or unintentionlly?) you make a strong statement at the end worth repeating…Fast-forward a couple of years. Little by little, through much prayer, evangelism, and hard work, a few souls came to Christ, a few believers moved in from out of town, and the Baptist church of Mérida began to take root and grow…
To me “a few souls” after much prayer/hard work is an indication that there are spiritual barriers/strongholds (whatever you want to call it) that blind people and prevent the planted seed from taking root. Could it be that there is some kind of connection between “a few souls” and our usual way of ignoring the serious aspects of spiritual warfare in its various dimensions?
Last month my wife and I spent a week in Spain (stayed with our mutual friends the Dixons.) Absolutely loved our time there visiting Madrid, Granada, and Barcelona. What a beautiful country. We loved it! But at the same time, we sensed a heavy spiritual darkness over the land. It crushed our spirits to be around such lostness and indifference to Gospel. Could it be that Hno. Antonio and the growing Pentecostals with their bizarre methods are more discerning and in tune with what the Spirit is doing to break those dark spiritual barriers that we are with our traditional, head knowledge based teaching and practices?
I am not saying throw out the truths of God’s Word and teaching as we know and understand them, but simply suggest, like Jesus explained to his disciples when not able to cast out the spirit from the child, “this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting.”
There may be more to dealing with the spiritual than we are comfortable with personally, but I try to not “throw out the baby with the bathwater” when dealing with issues I don’t fully comprehend.
Thanks for a really excellent post. I agree with the commenter above about it being a good idea to put some of these thoughts into more permanent book form.
I would like to take a personal privilege and ask you all to take a moment and remember the LSU TIGER as he once was a cuddly kitten that we all loved. He is about to become roadkill in the TIDAL path of the SABANATION.
ROLL TIDE
cb
One more thing;
For those of you who follow Jr High Football Nations:
The Iowa BUZZARDEYE NATION was soundly defeated by another and lesser Jr. High Football Nation. NORTHWESTERN NATION has de-feathered the BUZZARD.
Sorry Dave Miller, my heart goes out to you as your dreams are crushed once again in hopes of playing BIG NATION football.
cb
The dream died with a sack in the end zone and a sprained ankle.
Dave,
As you and the whole world now knows, the SABANATION just beat the LSU NATION. I could say a lot of things about our greatness, but instead I am going to do a benevolent thing.
Dave Miller,I am going to graciously allow you to cheer for the SABANATION.
Each year a registered Sabanite (me) is given sanction to adopt three hopeless fans as part of the SABANATION during the months of November and December.
Since you are the most hopeless fan I know, I am going to make you my first pick.
Congratulations Dave. You can now legitimately cheer for BIG NATION football. For a short time you are now part of the SEC.
You don’t have to thank me. I know you are speechless and on the verge of tears of joy. It is my honor to give you this gift.
cb
Dave,
In response to your question (#21), I am tempted to answer as if I had the answer, but, to be honest, I don’t. When I read both what Strider has to say here, as well as what Scott has to say, I find myself resonating with both–and yet, they are almost contradicting each other, if I understand them correctly. I do think there are places where the spiritual darkness is greater than others. Guy alludes to this in regard to Spain, for instance. Yet, there are missionaries who have worked in Spain for years and likely not directly run into the type of things I describe here in this post. Part of the answer (as both Scott and Guy suggest), almost certainly, is in being spiritually sensitive to the work of the enemy around us. Also, in my experience, these types of encounters have tended to come in bundles. Sometimes, one person with this type of problem is helped, and set free, and their story spreads a bit, and others with similar problems come seeking help. A lot of times, people dealing with these issues are embarrassed to talk about it, especially if they are not sure if others will take them seriously, or if they will think they are crazy. On the other hand, I think there is a certain danger, and possible imbalance, involved in going out intentionally seeking out demon-oppressed individuals. As I read the NT, though, especially the Gospels and Acts, these types of encounters seem to be pretty commonplace. Well, I guess, enough said for now, for someone who claims to not have the answer on this.
Scott,
Thanks for your input. I agree that we tend to gravitate toward the extremes in questions like this: either deny or ignore their existence altogether, or go overboard on it.
Guy,
Thanks for your thoughts, as well. I have wrestled quite a bit with knowing best how to interpret God’s apparent use of those who seem to have doctrinal aberrations or extreme practices. My conclusion is that there are certain doctrinal aberrations and extremisms that are of such a nature that they actually place people outside of the Body of Christ, and “ministries” which end up becoming more of a stumbling-block than a source of edification in the Body. A lot of prosperity oriented ministries come to mind, here, for example. But then, there are others that are off-base doctrinally in this or that, but not to such a degree as to cause me to not consider them as true brothers or sisters in Christ. When this is the case, I must treat them as a brother or sister, with all of the accompanying implications. Yet, I should not take the position that doctrine doesn’t matter. Some of these folks, even though they truly know the Lord, and are truly used by Him in different ways, really are off-base in their doctrine and practice. And yet, they may have certain insights into certain areas of bibical teaching and practice that I don’t have. So, I need to be open to learn from them what I can. At the same time, I do not need to be hesitant in taking a clear stand for what I understand to be the truth of the Word of God, even when it may go against someone else’s belief or practice. I think (as the example of the gypsy pastor who attended our services at the Baptist church in Mérida demonstrates) there are those in the Pentecostal/Charismatic world that are hungry and open for sound teaching of the Word of God, and God may want to use us to help them in this way. I know, for instance, that many Pentecostals/Charismatics, both in the States, as well as Latin America, have been blessed and helped by my father’s ministry. Also, Henry Blackaby, and Experiencing God, have been very well received among a number of Pentecostals/Charismatics.
CB,
I am glad that Alabama won today. That way, it will be even more exciting and rewarding, when the Gator Nation chomps up on them in the SEC championship game.
Amen, David!
Dave,
Do I take it from the “sound” of that Amen you gave to David’s vain excitement that you are refusing the wonderful gift I gave you back up in comment #27?
cb
I’ve already had H1N1. I don’t need SEC as well!
I do not view what Scott has to say as opposed to my previous comment. As SB’s we have a strong belief in a real Satan. We tend to ridicule those who do not believe in a literal devil. But at the same time, as Scott suggested we don’t do anything with that belief. Even though we know he is real we still credit all evil to our fellow human beings. A good example of this is that when someone holds an errant doctrine- especially something important- we can get really angry at them. Why are we not angry at the one who has deceived them? Why do we treat them like the enemy instead of the victim that they are?
But to get closer to the point we know very little about spiritual warfare which was a key point in this post. The enemy is most certainly at work everywhere in the world. Discernment is much needed to know how. For instance, in my part of the world he seems to work on a personal level with me, tempting me in my weakest places and working on undermining my character and my effectiveness. He is working on my team, undermining our confidence and trust in each other. He is working on the people of Gondor, tearing families to shreds in a variety of ways. He seems to target men and women in similar ways around the world, dividing husbands and wives, parents and children. We are familiar with some of this and it seems to be universal. But here is where the strategies diverge. In the US materialism is the spirit of the age. In Gondor, where I live division tears at society from every angle. In Mordor trust is nearly impossible and even among believers they can hardly meet together to share anything from the heart. In Rohan there is a spirit of fear that pours over you and everyone else as soon as you enter that country. In all of these the demonic is at work and many individuals have given themselves over to these vices in many ways. Demonic oppression is very apparent in illnesses, spousal abuse, prostitution, trafficking, different forms of slavery, and chronic fear. Possession is less common but still a possible factor in those any of us minister to. Spiritual attack and the more extreme examples are much more common in unreached places but as Scott has reminded us we are all in the battle and those “behind the lines” are no less a part of this war and are no more immune to spiritual warfare than any of the rest of us. This all needs its own post. As soon as one of us learns enough to speak intelligently to this maybe we could write it!
David,
Thanks for another excellent article on an issue that needs to be shared with all Southern Baptists. I have had similar experiences to yours in church planting and coming in contact with those of different theological backgrounds. It was a new experience for someone such as me who grew up immersed in the SBC cultural. I was aided greatly by a group of Navigators in starting a church once. I have to admit I didn’t ask them if they were baptized by a proper administrator or if they had a PPL. They were as anxious to see a church established in our area as I was and we were able to cooperate. Later most of them moved on to another ministry. I will also add that we had great fellowship and in some areas cooperation with our CMA and AOG friends.
I would like to respond to Dave’s question about spiritual warfare being less common in the US or do we just ignore it. Strider is correct in his evaluation. Do you remember all the temples in Taiwan? I think that in areas where there is idol worship or other types of false worship that spiritual warfare is far more difficult because demonic forces are stronger and able to have greater influence. I can remember the first time I saw a shaman putting on one of his shows, cutting himself with swords, going into a trance or giving messages from dead ancestors. It was a powerful reminder that we do not know all there is to know about spiritual warfare as Strider has mentioned. One thing that helped me was to ask the senior missionaries in our area for information and advice from their experience.
I would also add that I have not seen the relaxed relationship that Strider mentions. Things are quiet now but not all those who created the situations mentioned by David Rogers are gone.
I think a big hindrance to our own spiritual warfare is that we fail to recognize the immensity of the spiritual realm. The physical, the material, is “real” to us because it is our constant reality. It takes effort and focus to recognize that the spiritual reality is much more “real” than this world because it has the greatest effect on this world.
On a long drive back from a movie (where I grew up, the good theater was an hour away), I discussed with my wife (then girlfriend) about this. I compared it to looking through a peephole into another universe. We can only see so much this side of the wall, and when people try to mess with or control what’s going on on the other side, they are inviting powers far greater than they can imagine into their lives. You can’t play with the demonic. When the lost get mixed up in it they have no recourse for getting out except the gospel.
Praise God that Satan cannot do any more against us than our Father allows!
Ron,
I agree that the permeation of overt idolatry within a culture does seem to open the door to the kind of demonic activity I am describing in this post. Peter Wagner (who I have come increasingly to take with a grain of salt on a lot of issues) wrote a little book called “Hardcore Idolatry,” in which he makes more or less this same point. In this case, I think he was on to something.
In the States, we have made a big deal about idolatry being anything in our life that squeezes out our priority relationship with God. And, there definitely is a significant degree in which this is true. However, there is something even more insidious, in the spiritual realm, about the overt worship/veneration of physical idols that we find in many world religions, and even in a good part of Roman Catholicism around the world. When I went to India a couple of years ago, for instance, I was struck by the similarities of Hindu practice there and Catholic practice in Extremadura, Spain. Some people would call this “Folk Catholicism.” But, when these practices seem to have the blessing of official church authorities, as they do in many places, it is hard for me to make this distinction.
On the other hand, the types of idolatry practiced in the States (materialism, hedonism, American civil religion, etc.) definitely have their nefarious and powerful effects, as well. But, for some reason, they don’t always seem to manifest themselves with the same phenomena as those associated with “hardcore idolatry.” Personally, though, I think the devil is just as content to keep someone in bondage through one way as through the other.
Also, unforgiveness and bitterness can open up some big doors to demonic bondage, whatever the cultural setting. Also, dabbling in the occult, sexual perversion, etc. I believe I have recommended the materials of Neil Anderson, related to all this, here on SBC Impact before. Also, Timothy Warner, who has worked as a close associate of Anderson, has written specifically about the implications of all this in cross-cultural ministry.
The real national championship will be played in the SEC championship game. It will be Florida vs. Alabama. The other championship game that the BCS folks have does not take into account that the SEC teams beat up on each other all season. The reason that they dont have a lot of teams with great records is that we play tough games nearly every Saturday of the football season.
Go Vols!
David