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How Pentecostals Have Blessed My Life
Posted by Dave Miller in Church & Missions
My life has been blessed in amazing ways since God changed my heart about fellowship with Charismatics and Pentecostals.
I have never been a big fan of the theology or practice of Charismatic or Pentecostal believers. I guess I sensed they felt my faith was flawed, that something significant was missing from my walk with Christ. And they did such silly, crazy things in the name of the Savior. I read books like John MacArthur’s “Charismatic Chaos” and felt an amen deep in my soul. To be honest, I dismissed my glossolalia-enthralled fellow-believers with disdain; as some sort of mutant strain of the faith.
My attitude (with perhaps a tad more grace) is prevalent in our denomination. We have written policies to prevent those who are charismatic (or even those with a private prayer language) from serving in our missions agencies. Our fellowship is certainly limited. Dr. Malcolm Yarnell made the following comment on a blog, “Thus, the only form of cooperation that seems possible when working with Pentecostal Christians is co-belligerency with regard to public policy (standing against abortion, for the family, etc).” It is his recommendation that the only fellowship we have with our Pentecostal brethren be in the region of politic and social advocacy.
There was a time when I would have agreed with that position. I separated myself from Charismatics. I thought ill of them, spoke critically of them, stayed away from them, and disdained the silliness of their doctrines and practices. Then, God changed my heart.
This is my story of how God used Charismatic and Pentecostal believers whom I had disdained to bless my life. It is a personal testimony, but I will not hide the fact that I have a reason for sharing this testimony. I am still in disagreement with the theology advocated by Pentecostals. I do not speak in tongues in public or private. But I think that the fear and loathing that some Baptists show toward Charismatics is unnecessary, and I think there is much to be gained by fellowshipping with them and even partnering with them is some significant (if limited) ways.
I became the pastor of Northbrook Baptist Church in Cedar Rapids, Iowa in 1991, and God blessed that church. By summer of 2003, the church had more than tripled in average attendance. But problems were beginning to surface – some of which derived from unholy attitudes and actions by the pastor. On September 23, 1993, I was at a pastor’s conference and watched a tape of Henry Blackaby on holiness from the Fresh Encounter series. It was a turning point in my life. I spent much of that evening praying, repenting and renewing my walk with the Lord.
But when I went back to the church, a strange thing happened. I ran into a brick wall of opposition and resistance. It was as if every evil thing in the hearts of people in that church came to the surface. I felt like I was on the front lines of warfare for most of the next year.
In January, I received an invitation to a pastors luncheon. I had always disdained fellowship with other pastors – these men were the competition, weren’t they? But I knew that God wanted me to go to that meeting. At that meeting, I heard about a weekly pastor’s noon hour prayer time, and I knew I needed go.
I began to pray with these men whom I had disdained and an amazing thing happened. In my nearly 30 years of ministry, 1994 was my toughest. These men – mostly charismatics and Pentecostals – lifted me up weekly and were my support system. They prayed loudly and fervently – it shook me up sometimes. But they walked with me, held me up, and prayed me through this horrible time.
I realized something in those prayer times. These men had beliefs and practices I did not like, but they sought the power of the same God I sought. I did not have to compromise anything to intercede on behalf of Cedar Rapids and its churches with them. They are not God’s step-children.
In the middle of the summer of 1994 (that awful year) one of the leaders of this group asked me if I would be interested in having Claude King (co-author of “Experiencing God”) speak at our church in August. Claude was coming for a conference on revival. I was excited to have him speak. That was the day God brought revival to Northbrook Baptist, a revival that lasted a couple of years – the most exciting time of my ministry. It came through my fellowship with a man that I had considered an enemy a year before.
About the same time, we were getting ready to build a home in Cedar Rapids, on land we had purchased near the church. We were told we had to move out of our rental home in September because the state was taking it to widen a road, and our home would not be ready until after Christmas. We were going to be homeless and had no idea what to do.
Again, I shared this at the prayer time and the pastor of the large Assembly church came to me afterward and told me he thought he had a solution. A surgeon in his church had a two-bedroom, two-bath apartment in his basement that he had built to house pastors and missionaries in need. While we built our home, we lived in luxury in a beautiful basement apartment of a Pentecostal surgeon. Again, God blessed us through our fellowship with those I had disdained.
So, God used the men I had treated like lepers in a significant way in my ministry. They helped me in my darkest days of struggle. One had been directly involved in the spiritual revival in my church. Another arranged for my family to have a place to live for 4 months while we built a home. I think God was trying to teach me something.
That did not mean I became charismatic. There were times when being involved with them was difficult. I remember one pastor asking God to forgive us for our doctrine. No, not just for false doctrine – he was asking God to forgive us for having doctrine at all. What a horrible idea that was. One church got the “Pensacola Blessing” and wanted all of us to participate. I did not.
Yes, it was often a strain to be involved with a group that had so many doctrines that I disagreed with so much. But it was worth it. You do not get to choose your family. I had to live with the brother and two sisters I got (they actually aren’t so bad). I didn’t get to pick and choose. And I do not get to pick my spiritual family. God does that. My job is to walk with them in unity and fellowship as much as is possible.
There are things we cannot do together. We do not plant churches together. We maintain our separate places of worship, styles and doctrines. But we do not have to erect a giant wall of separation from them. A simple, friendly picket fence will do. We can be good neighbors, fellowship together, join together in many ministries, bless each other with our words and seek Christ together.
Here in Sioux City, we have a large Assembly of God church across the street from our Baptist church. We are good neighbors to each other, but we worship on opposite sides of Old Lakeport Road.
One of our most effective outreach ministries here is a Upward Basketball. We have had over 500 kids involved in our program in years past. That ministry is a partnership between our church, the Assembly of God and a Missouri Synod Lutheran church. Baptists, Lutherans and Pentecostals working together to reach children and their families in Sioux City – that’s a little more involved that just co-belligerency.
I am not saying that we should become a charismatic denomination or that we should compromise our doctrine to partner with Charismatics. My point is simple. The Pentecostals and Charismatics I have known (not those I have watched on TV or heard about in books) have been wonderful followers of Christ. They have a passion and joy in their faith and a freedom in worship that I enjoy. I have been blessed by them. Yes, they have problems with their theology, but that should not hinder us from fellowshipping with them, partnering with them in certain evangelistic and community ministries, and being a blessing to each other.
I know that my life has been enriched because of the tongue-talking men and women of God who have crossed my path.
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A beautiful journey! Thanks for sharing it.
John
Dave, thanks for sharing your story. I’m sure the comments section will be filled with other people’s stories as well, so I’d like to share mine.
Going through high school, I didn’t have a whole lot of choice as to who I could fellowship with for Wednesday lunch period Bible studies, so I met with Christians of all kinds of flavors. We had Evangelical Free, Lutheran, Methodist, Non-denom, Baptist, Charismatic, and even a Catholic or two showing up for a short Bible study beginning with praise and worship music. Since I had the opportunity to lead the group, I had some control over what was taught and who was teaching, but we had fellowship and encouragement to reach others for Christ. Also, it gave me a platform to challenge a few beliefs that others held.
One of my best friends in high school was a charismatic. We enjoyed hanging out, talking about matters of doctrine (though never using the term “doctrine,” as some charismatics don’t like/understand the word, like Dave’s story above). We could agree to disagree. He was basically Arminian and I was basically Calvinist. We met up a few months back and I broached the subject of Calvinism again, and I learned that he held to election and perseverance of the saints, two things he probably would have denied a few years ago. Was that my influence? Probably not. But God is working on others like he is working on me, so I am just happy to find a few more areas of agreement.
I definitely agree that we should fellowship with charismatic and pentecostals because it can lead to life-long friendships, help us define what we believe, and also, just maybe, God will reform the beliefs and practices of both them and us. How we go about having fellowship with them in ministry is still up for debate, which I’m trusting this comment area will address.
I am glad you were encouraged by these folks. I would never suggest that someone who is Charismatic is not a Christian. In my experience, most of them are “emotionalists”–they need a feeling or experience to prop up their faith. The ones I’ve known have been biblically ignorant and have seen scripture as A source of divine revelation not THE source of divine revelation. However, I agree that believer who are in that tradition are not red headed step children of the King. We should be more tolerant of genuine believers with other interpretations of scripture no matter how wrong they are (wink).
“They are not God’s step-children.”
I love that line. So wonderful of you to share. I’ve found myself ignoring a lot of what I’m “supposed” to be doing with regard to non-Baptists and just acting from the heart. Makes for sweet fellowship and inspires me to grow in my faith.
Great article and look forward to what others share in this regard. As for me, my best friend in Jr. High attended an Assembly of God and we had great times together.
I think the biggest killer of denominational partisanship has been the rise of youth ministry where hordes of teens from across denominational boundaries found joyous fellowship at youth rallies, conferences, concerts, camps and getaways. I know my kids are mystified by the denominational partisan rhetoric from the “old school preachers” (as they refer to them) when their experience has introduced them to myriad folks of a wide range of denominational stripes who love the Lord. There really is no substitute for getting to know people on a personal level rather than listening to them demonized from the pulpit.
My worship has been affected by Pentecostals along with my decisions to serve and seek God’s best for my life. Sometimes, the sovereignty issue causes me to simply allow God to do it all. I have found my balance with the Pentecostal agenda and maintain my chosen position with God at the same time. It is the simultaneous application of both free will and sovereignty that have captured my attention over the past few years. Both exist and both must be applied to our lives and the worship of God.
I had to come to the conclusion that tongues did not end based upon the wrong interpretation of I Cor. 13:8. Though I do not pursue talking in tongues, I do not think they have ceased and could occur without promoting it. Tongues may be idle but the Spirit has to keep that club in the bag for that one lie somewhere in the world that it would be needed and used to bring glory to God.
Great post, Dave. Didn’t know others were affected similarly. On the other hand, I think Baptist have had an affect on Pentecostals, as well.
There really is no substitute for getting to know people on a personal level rather than listening to them demonized from the pulpit.
True dat.
Joe, I agree that these folks can be “emotionalists” as you describe. But I think, while I find that dangerous, I also find it an endearing contrast. Many Baptists/Evangelicals are so afraid to express their emotions, to enjoy the faith.
Our faith is theological, but it is also experiential. We are meant to experience the love of God. It is a dangerous thing to be guided by emotion and to ignore truth. But there is still something about the passion many charismatics have in worship that is appealing to me.
Bruce, you mentioned that perhaps we have had some positive effect on Charismatics as well. I think that might be true.
A charismatic pastor friend of mine told me something at lunch one day (same guy that arranged Claude King to come and visit). He said, “We need you Baptists being involved with the church as a whole. My group (charismatics) wants to soar and fly in the heavenlies, but we need you to keep us grounded in scripture as well.” That’s a paraphrase, by the way.
Andrew, as far as ministry partnership goes, I think there is a simple rubric we can use. If we are required to compromise fundamental truths or even our Baptist distinctives to partner, we have probably gone too far. I do not have to compromise to fellowship, to do certain evangelistic ministries (like Upward) or to unite together for prayer and worship.
To plant churches? That would be hard. The identity of our churches is different enough that it would not be easy to work together in that way.
I did not agree with Dr. Yarnell’s statement, but he is right that social ministry and “co-belligerency” is one chief area we can work together.
To me, the essential step one – we must regard each other as fellow-servants of Christ and must bless each other from the pulpit.
While I don’t think we should necessarily “demonize” people from the pulpit, there is certainly a scriptural precedent and mandate for denouncing false doctrines and false teachers. There is also a spiritual need in the people to maintain balanced Biblical perspectives on life, so teachings must follow.
I work in the Hispanic ministry at our church and we’ve just started having Saturday night services in Spanish. Some people have said that they wished we only sang exciting and upbeat songs. While I try to make sure the music fits the cultural background of the believers I work with, I also recognize that sometimes God calls us to quietness, reflection, and even solemnity. Though this is really a minor issue, there is also a need to gain a biblical understanding of the non-musical and the not-so-upbeat aspects of corporate worship.
While I’m not a Vineyard fan, some years ago I read Rich Nathan’s book, Empowered Evangelicals. It is pretty clear that Baptists have had a strong influence on this branch of the charismatic movement at least since they figure prominently in the book. I also see less Azusa Street Pentecostalism in groups like Chuck Smith’s Calvary Chapel and some of the bigger AoG churches.
Other influences include Presbyterianism through D. James Kennedy’s Evanglism Explosion and then there is Blackaby’s Experiencing God series.
With the rise of generic Christian bookstores that don’t catalogue based on denomination and the loss of denominational presses, I think the differences are leveling out across evangelical denominations. For instance, Lifeway stores stock VBS programs from a variety of sources and many churches make their selections based on factors other than coming from the denominational press.
Another influence that cannot be ignored is Focus on the Family which provided a national forum for a wide range of evangelical denominations. We found out first hand that they weren’t all kooks and crazies. That doesn’t make these folks go away: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEveQkBF9zY But it does show us that there are some good folks in these charismatic denominations who are voices worth listening to.
There is common ground we can meet on with other denominations but the one that scares me the most is “Inter-denominationalism”. Our church leadership wanted to use Sunday School material that follows an idea of, “vertical alignment”, from a company called Group.com. The idea was to have all ages study the same thing in Sunday School each Sunday and then families talk about it on the drive home from church. The problem was that the material went through the Bible in 3 years (LifeWay is 5 years) and it was written for an interdenominational audience. The company felt that any denomination could use the material. Without any distinction in doctrine all we would be doing is telling stories.
I think an emphasis on “discernment” for all believers is essential. It is the individual decisions we make that make our faith strong or weak.
Funny you should say that, Bruce.
If one looks at the ministry of Jesus, particularly when religious people were trying to get him sucked into doctrinal disputes, he resorted to stories, i.e. parables.
“Without any distinction in doctrine all we would be doing is telling stories,” commits the twin errors of elevating “doctrinal” teaching and dismissing the power of story. Actually, “doctrinal” teaching is the easy part. Making it practical or finding practical applications that give rise to powerful stories is much more difficult.
AMEN, Rick.
For those who maintain that salvation must be accompanied by the gift of tongues–I must place them outside Orthodoxy. That being said, I would love to partner with Pentecostals and Lutherans in city wide evangelistic opportunities.
I would agree with that, John, but I have met very few who actually believe that those without tongues are not saved.
I would say that we have an obligation before God to point out the errors of such things as ecstatic utterance, faith healing for everyone who has enough faith, losing salvation, and other such errors that do so much harm to the faith of people. I dont call that bashing charismatics. I call that teaching my people to not go off the deep end on harmful extremes and errors.
I agree that we can do social ministry with charismatics. We can pray for revival and for the nation with charismatics. We can stand against sinful things in society with charismatics. But, evangelistic things? Really? When they are preaching that people need to get saved again who have lost it? When they are preaching that you have to speak in tongues as evidence of being really saved? When they might counsel some confused person who is doubting thier salvation, and that person will be told to get saved again because they must have lost it? Really?
I dont think so.
David
Dave, Volfan brings up a good point. How do you handle the issue of assurance of salvation with Charismatics in your evangelistic events? You said that you didn’t know many Charismatic pastors who were of the persuasion that you had to speak in tongues to be saved, so I’m assuming that’s not too big of an issue for your ministry.
I don’t know about pastors, but I have known church members of the Assemblies of God and other churches who’ve held to those positions probably in a higher concentration than the pastors. What do you do with them, since I’m assuming it’s not just church leadership at these gatherings?
Vol says, “evangelistic things? Really? When they are preaching that people need to get saved again who have lost it? When they are preaching that you have to speak in tongues as evidence of being really saved? When they might counsel some confused person who is doubting thier salvation, and that person will be told to get saved again because they must have lost it? Really?”
It has not been my experience that any of these things have ever happened in our joint efforts. Andrew, you bring up something kind of important – my fellowship has largely been with Charismatic and Pentecostal pastors, who often are more balanced than some of the laity.
I don’t know if charismatics are different in different parts of the country, but I am wondering if some of what people are thinking about Charismatics and Pentecostals may be formed from what we say about them, instead of actual experience.
I prayed with and fellowshipped with these guys for over a decade and losing your salvation never came up.
No one, not one Charismatic I have ever know anywhere has ever told me that I am not saved if I do not speak in tongues. I have heard Baptists accuse C&P Christians of this, but NEVER have I heard one of them advocate this.
I think we Baptists tend to watch the most extreme Charismatics on TV and other places and assume that they represent the norm. When I started fellowshipping with them, I realized that this (at least in my experience) was not the case.
If they advocated the stuff that Vol mentioned, I would have told them that if they continued to do that sort of thing, I could not participate. But honestly NO ONE EVER did. Not a single one.
My personal experience leads me to believe that what many people think C&P’s believe is more a mythology created by the opponents of C&P rather than a real representation of what they actually believe and practice.
Vol, how ’bout my Hawkeyes?
We also have to keep in mind that there are just as many, if not more, flavors of Baptist as there are Pentecostal. Since we Baptist camp together we may not seem so bad to each other. Maybe our “prejudice” affects our perception. I wonder if there is any Calvinist Pentecostals? That doesn’t even sound right!
Good point, Bruce. It is like how some people here in Iowa think of Southern Baptists. They think we are snake-handling hicks. Or hyper-legalistic, hell-fire breathing folks. They have seen or heard some caricature of an SB, and assumed it applied to everyone.
I think that is what we do sometimes with C&P’s.
Dave,
I’ve had some pretty interesting experiences with teens and adults from charismatic congregations in my hometown in Michigan and on short-term mission trips to Peru with Global Expeditions (part of the Acquire the Fire/Teen Mania/Ron Luce organization). I’ve seen and met the crazies, but I’ve also met enough down-to-earth people that I don’t avoid them when I walk down the street.
I wholeheartedly believe that you could have fellowship with some pastors from the charismatic movement, but I also believe that enough of the crazies are out there to give credence to the “mythology.” Like my dad said after visiting a monastery in Italy, “They really do have bunnies hopping around and little vegetable gardens!” While I agree with Bruce that the SBC (and our own churches) has its own bunch of crazies, I’d like to share some of my worst experiences with my Charismatic friends just so you know that it’s not just the ones on TV who can be unbiblical:
1) A youth pastor told his youth group and my friends and I that we had to have faith and a mutual friend would recover from his car accident. My friend was pronounced dead that same day and his youth group was devastated.
2) I shared a bunk with a guy in Peru who believed wholeheartedly that Jesus was not God
3) I sat through a healing service in an Assembly of God church in Lima while people were pushed over by faith healers (I have a pretty good idea how to do it now).
4) Another acquaintance of mine claimed a mutual Christian friend was demon-possessed and that he could see the demon.
5) I got bronchitis for a month and was told that I needed to have faith that God would heal me.
6) An acquaintance read Job 15:22 in his quiet time, which reads, “For when a few years have come I shall go the way from which I shall not return,” and believed that God spoke to him through the verse and that he was called to be a missionary and disappear into the jungle.
My point is that some of the assumptions about Charismatics are not without base. Sometimes these things don’t come out because we are reluctant to bring the issues up in conversation. I don’t have a problem praying with many of my Charismatic friends or doing some ministry together, but I’m not going to go on a Global Expeditions trip again.
Every Pentecostal and Charismatic Church that I know believes that a person can lose thier salvation in one way, or another. I have heard Pentecostals and other Charismatic groups tell people that they needed to be saved again. I have heard Pentecostals and other Charismatics say that speaking in tongues is the evidence of salvation.
Dave, your Hawkeyes are doing pretty good, except for the one point win over Northern Iowa, or N. Illinois, or Western South Dakota State, or whoever that was….and, they dont play in the SEC, where the toughest and best teams play every Saturday.
And, you might want to quiz your Pentecostal and Charismatic friends a little more about what I brought up.
I’ll bet you a Krispy Kreme doughnut that they believe a person can lose thier salvation.
David
To keep things fair, I’ll mention a few bad experiences at some Baptist churches:
1) An elderly man told the pastor that he and his wife were praying for God to remove him from the pastorate
2) During a Bible study that mentioned something about Satan, a man said that someone in our group would suffer an attack from Satan because we were talking about him, and it spooked many people in the church
3) A guy I knew said spiritual gifts had ceased because the MacArthur Study Bible says so and told the Sunday school teacher that he was presumptuous for disagreeing with John MacArthur.
Out of curiosity, are there any people here who have youth groups or youth in your church who’ve gone to Acquire the Fire or on a Global Expeditions mission trip? Teen Mania ministries likes to parade as an interdenominational group, but I’ve been with them and they were very close knit with Assemblies of God in Peru (as was Compassion International, the child-sponsoring ministry you see on TV). While going on the trips helped me refine and learn to defend my beliefs, I think that it can really challenge youth to follow doctrines we’d consider unbiblical. Anyone have thoughts on this?
Dave,
I’ve enjoyed your post and the thread that has followed. I too have found good friendships and ministry partners among the A&G folks. Several years ago the pastor of the local A&G church and I would meet together every morning for prayer – it was an awesome experience. He in fact taught me much about worship, praise and sold out devotion to the Lord. He was very orthodox on most things but preferred the freedom of a A&G worship. I had him lead worship for me during a revival and actually had him preach for me once. We visited his church during a revival and when the evangelist found out I was the local Baptist pastor – he was determined to “get me saved.” My friend set him straight very quickly – and I might add, very publically.
Now, on the other hand, when my friend’s 7 year old son developed leukemia, he actually had people in his church tell him that it was the result of some sin in his or his wife’s life – others said that if he would just have faith then God would heal him. When his precious son died – the church fired him.
There are other stories I could tell on both sides of the issue. But the simple truth is that just as we Baptist have a few loose nuts, so do they. Still I find the fellowship for the most part refreshing. BTW, my friends and I do discuss theology and doctrine – and enjoy it very much.
Grace Ya’ll,
Wes
Vol, I know they believe that folks can lose their salvation. I’m just saying that in our joint efforts, they have never made that an issue.
I have never met one who believed that tongues was necessary for salvation. I’m not saying they don’t exist. I’m just saying that I have never met one – and I have had pretty wide experiences with charismatics.
Andrew,
Nothing like you mentioned, however, your story did bring to mind a recent concert I went to by the group, “Jars of Clay”. I noticed that the first four (4) songs never mentioned the name of Jesus. Just after that thought ran through my mind they stopped and mentioned that you don’t have to mention Jesus in your songs if your heart is singing to Him. What?!?!? None of the rest of the songs even sounded Christian nor did they mention Jesus. All the while, the crowd was standing and waving their hands in the air as they sang. Talking about “unbiblical doctrines”, this church was called Fellowship of The Woodlands and is part of the local Baptist Association.
Brother Dave,
Great post,…. I have been away from the computer for a few days so I have not had time to respond until now. But, my adopted Grandmother (no longer living), was one of my best friends and I had the opportunity to preach her going home service at the A&G. What a wonderful opportunity to share her home going with a packed house of brothers and sisters in Christ in the same building where she died. She worked at the A&G in Seminole TX cleaning the building where the church met for worship. She was there for over 50 years doing that work,….and died one afternoon while losing her balance and hitting her head near the alter. She (Witt) and I were closest of friends, and I look forward to seeing and enjoying our Lord and her together for eternity.
We had our doctrinal differences of course, yet we loved each other..amazingly so. She faithfully prayed and encouraged me for a lifetime….and baked her famous pound cake (warm and tender) every time I came back to Seminole to visit. I have her bible in the shelf above my head from where I am typing this post. It is worn out and written in…..gracious scribbles of a wonderful woman that new the power of the Holy Spirit in her life, and she was never shy about leading me to Christ at every opportunity.
Thanks for bringing that memory back to me this week!
Blessings,
Chris
Andrew, re your comment #25 – I have had similar experiences. One of my closest friends in Cedar Rapids had some theological ideas I found heinous. I think my point here is that we can fellowship and even join in service together with the people in spite of their theological flaws – at least to some degree.
My friend and I did several things together, but there were always going to be limits to what we could do together in ministry. I would not have planted a church with him. But I would have gone out witnessing with him (not something we ever did).
What i learned through my fellowship is that the weird ideas and bad theology was real, and a problem, but in spite of it all, these people really loved Jesus and wanted to glorify him.
What several have mentioned, and what I have found most silly and offensive, is the idea that C&P’s have presented about faith – the word of faith, “God will heal you if you have faith” type of idea.
I find it a heinous, offensive twisting of scripture. But my attitude is that these are dear brothers in Christ with bad ideas.
If we separate from them, how will they be exposed to the other side? If we are involved with them as friends, perhaps we can give them the other side and gently work through the false ideas they have.
And, frankly, some of the vibrancy of C&P worship can rub off on us. Not all of it, just some of it.
Hi
if it’s ok for a British Baptist to comment
in twenty five years of interaction with charismatics and pentecostals i’ve never once heard anyone say people can loose their salvation
we have quite a lot of Calvinistic Charismatics here – strange but true
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i believe that ideas like” losing your salvation” and especially “you will be healed if you have enough faith” are deeply dangerous and i challenge those ideas from the pulpit firmly and clearly – but i know those ideas are not just a problem with charismatics.
you may remember a presentation Lifeway did in Kentucky in 2007 and presented on Nov 14 2007. The research was amongst people who attend SB churches. The research when it touched on what people believed in terms of truth and asked people to agree or disagree with certain sentences came up with the following in terms of people’s responses
Jesus may have committed sins while in human form on earth (65% Disagree strongly or somewhat)
Christians must continually work toward their salvation, or risk losing it (49% Disagree strongly or somewhat)
If a person is sincerely seeking God, he/she can obtain eternal life through religions other than Christianity (45% Disagree strongly or somewhat)
we really need to work on understanding of truth for the 35% who didn’t disagree with Jesus being sinful, or the 51% who may well think you have to work at your salvation or lose it, or the 55% who might be don’t support the uniqueness of Christ.
I wish it meant the services in Kentucky SB churches were so evangelistic that they were full of people seeking faith and coming to the truth, and i wish if i did a survey of my church members who are pretty much all genuine and really believers in Christ that they would score 100% for the truth on all of these, but i fear neither hope would be true.
With prayers for the brothers and sisters who have so much to give to the world
Rob
Do we charge long-distance rates for British Baptist comments?
I appreciate your comment. There are so many ideas that are disturbing. I saw a statistic that said that 56% of BAPTISTS (self-identified) believed that works play some part in salvation. AARRGGHH!
There are many bad ideas out there, and only the consistent proclamation of God’s truth will correct them.
Your comments are well-taken.
I might add that here, in the US, most C&P believers would hold to the belief that salvation can be lost. However, my experience has been that there are only a small percentage of those who hold this strongly or make a big issue of it.
“Can’t we all just get along?”
Shoot, most of the Baptists I know can’t even cooperate with EACH OTHER without fighting, let alone have a good relationship with those crazy hand wavers over in that big purty building…
Very thought provoking, Dave. Thanks!
Dave,
Obviously your experience with pentecostals, etc. is not the same as is Vol’s. But what Vol is describing is the general rule. You are speaking of the exception.
And the term “charismatics” describes a totally different theological predisposition in England than it does here in North America in general.
Vol is to be commended for coming here and saying what he did, knowing he could be “bashed” for it. He is a pretty gritty fellow, even if he is a TN. fan.
cb
I’m not sure how you can make that assertion, CB. I have ministered in Texas, Florida, Virginia, and Iowa. You many be asserting more than you know, CB.
Can you name one C/P who claims that you are not saved if you don’t speak in tongues. I have yet to meet one.
I guess my point, CB, would be to ask you what experience you have had that would give you the authority to determine that I am the exception and Vol is the rule?
I just wonder what gives you the authority to make that judgment?
Most of the Charismatic congregants that I know (many are family) do not in fact speak in tongues themselves, let alone require it as evidence of salvation. The Assemblies of God are the largest Pentecostal denomination and they do not believe that speaking in tongues is a requirement for (or evidence of) salvation. The 4 Square Church does not seem to have that requirement in the doctrinal statement I was able to find.
I know charismatics who claim they have a private prayer language when talking to God.I always kinda figured He understands english.
Bill, I am sure you are very right. The prayer group I mentioned in my post had both foursquare and Assembly pastors. Some groups say that tongues (or other phenomena) are signs of the “second blessing” but not of salvation.
I’m wondering if David and CB are confusing them with UPC churches (oneness Pentecostals). They are heretical on many counts, as are some of the apostolic groups that hold very similar doctrine. I believe that they hold that tongues are a sign of salvation.
It would hardly be fair to judge the beliefs of Charismatics and Pentecostals based on what UPC or oneness Pentecostals have to say.
Kirby, I guess your comment kind of stands by itself and needs no further elaboration.
Dave,
You asked, “Can you name one C/P who claims that you are not saved if you don’t speak in tongues. I have yet to meet one.”
Yes I can. There are churches full of them in KY, TN., AL, PA, NC, VA, MS, etc. that I know of and I am sure we can find many all across the country if you are up to a road trip and know where to look.
That is not to mention the strong “sign” churches in many areas. (snakes and poisons)
Dave, I am familiar with the “Jesus Only” movement but I am not restricting my comment to them.
BTW, I have many friends in those churches and have preached in many Pentecostal, Holiness, Charismatic and even some Neo-Charismatic churches. I have preached in two churches that I still do not know what they really were. I preached in a church that on Thursday night they turned off the lights and wrestled with “angels” But I preached there on a Sunday morning. I never did visit there for the Thursday night angel wrestling events. I have also preached in two snake handling churches. One was the “Church of God in Christ Free Will Pentecostal Church” up a particular hollow in KY and that is true. I will be glad to take you there. I am sure they will let a fine Yankee fellow like you preach before they turn up the music and take up the snakes. I will video you so you can show it to you church when you get back home.
cb
I’m still not sure that your experiences are more normative. Perhaps in certain regions of the country there are more extreme versions of C&P’s. I don’t know.
We all have anecdotal experience. It is a mistake to take it as normative. How often have Southern Baptists been mischaracterized by people ignorant of our core doctrines? The only way to state definitively what charismatic groups believe is to look at their doctrinal statements. They are not a monolithic group and their beliefs cannot be characterized as if they were.
Good word, Bill.
Dave and Bill,
I have no “authority to make that judgment”, but I have done the research, and by your post; I know you have not. You are just speaking from some personal experiences and nothing more.
I have looked at their core doctrines. At least I have looked at those who have them recorded. Have either of you even heard of Smith Wigglesworth, William Seymour or Field of the Wood?
In all likelihood the people you have met are some types of Neo-Charismatics and not true Old Time Pentecostals, Holiness or Charismatics. Do you know the difference between the Church of God and The Assemblies of God? Do you know the history of the Nazarenes? Have you any knowledge of the Latter Rain Movement? or the Five Fold Movement? What about Azusa Street? Have either of you ever done any real research into this?
Dave, I think it is you who sees these brothers as monolithic and not me. You have met a few and you think you know them. You don’t. Dave, you just feel insulted because someone has actually given you a legitimate challenge as to certain parts of your post. Remember, I never said they were bad people. They are a different people and they are in error about many things relating to the faith. That is all I have said.
I think you just don’t like it because Vol has a better understanding of these people than you do and he punched a few holes in your post. Had it been anyone other than Vol, you would have been more open to what he has said. And everything the guy has said is true. Sometimes hypocrisy knows no bounds, brother.
cb
Most major denominational groups have their doctrine readily accessible online. The Assemblies of God and Four Square Church do.
Dave: From one hypocrite to another, keep up the good work, but lose the baseball team. Do you know how hard it is to agree with a Yankees fan?
Bill,
The major portion of this work was done long before “on line” was on line. And many Pentecostal and Holiness groups do not have a recorded theology. They have oral traditions. it is also a fact that many that do have a recorded theology do not follow it very closely. This is due to their being open to new revelations and “words from the Lord.” (Of course there are many Baptist who seem to be just as “open” to new revelations these days.)
I have to agree with CB. I have known a lot of different Pentecostal type Churches people who will tell you such as I have said above. Now, not all of them will tell you that you have to speak in tongues as an evidence of salvation. But, for instance, back in Jimmy Swaggarts heyday….what denomination was he?….I heard him say on tv that you had to speak in tongues as an evidence of salvation. I knew a fella in college, who went to some sort of charismatic type Church, where he was told this, and he was also taught how to speak in tongues. He was very confused, and he had many, many doubts about his salvation. He came to me for counsel. I tried to share with him, to help me get free from this error, but he just became satisfied at last that he had learned to speak in tongues.
I know of a woman who was taught by Pentecostal/charismatic type preachers and people that if you just have enough faith, then you should never be sick. She got down in her back bad enough to be put into the hospital. I saw that woman go thru agony, emotionally, wondering why she couldnt be healed. She eventually began to doubt her salvation, after all, if she wasnt being healed after praying for healing, then something was obviously wrong with her faith. Thank God, I was able to help her move past that error.
So, Dave, like CB said, you must be hanging with a different crowd than what we know. And, I have a lot of experience dealing with the Pentecostal/Charismatic crowd. But, if they are changing…getting away from the errors in theology, then that’s great.
But, Dave, most…if not all…Pentecostal/Charismatic believe in a person losing their salvation due to different things. They are Arminian. And, most of the ones I talk to get very upset about Baptists believing in “Once saved, always saved.”
David
Brother Dave,
CB and Vol are pretty accurate here IMHO. If you take the A of G, as I spoke about earlier, they do believe that since they may have had a libertarian hand in choosing salvation, they will have that same liberty to lose what they had a hand in gaining through their freedom to choose (even some Baptist’s affirm the liberty to choose, but not the liberty to fall – interesting). Full fledged Arminians believe this today, but Arminius himself never finished his thesis, yet pushed for other things more similar to Calvin’s view of sanctification and perseverance. I’ll probably uncover more of that in a future post where Arminius is clear on his perspective of salvific mechanics.
I have found though, that some A of G adherents do not believe that God will let them go….so there is a wide range of beliefs within the circle.
Blessings,
Chris
To be honest, I think the discussion here has become a little silly – a bunch of Baptists claiming to know more about charismatics than anyone else.
I never said that the AoG or other charismatic/Pentecostals aren’t arminian. They are. They (mostly) believe you can lose their salvation. I have not encountered any other than oneness Pentecostals who believe that tongues is necessary for salvation.
Please limit comments to the subject at hand – the blessings of fellowship with C&P believers (or why it is not profitable).
Dave,
It did not start out this way. Vol made a statement based on acquired “knowledge” responding to what you said based upon personal “experience.” It is my opinion that you are bigoted toward Vol because he is of a group some of you have labeled as Baptist Identity. Therefore, you kinda scoffed at his response, in my opinion. I commented in support of Vol’s comment based upon a knowledge similar to Vol’s. You scoffed at that also.
Dave, no one has said that the “Second Blessing: folks are evil or bad in general. We are simply saying they, in general promote a faulty theology in many areas. Dave, some of us have actually done research into the theologies of these various groups for educational or personal reasons. You on the other hand, posted basically from some experiences you have had with these people.
Lastly Dave, we have not claimed to, as Baptists, “know more about charismatics than anyone else.” We just claimed to know what we know. Obviously, you are determined to make it appear we know nothing. You are simply wrong here brother. Bottom line; we actually do know more about these fine folks than you based upon what you posted and your comments afterward. Now, you can ban me from IMPACT once again.
cb
Too many Christians I know are much too biblically/theologically ignorant for me to ever feel safe encouraging them to fellowship with Charismatics/Pentecostals of any strain. Many believers today feel that if the other person smiles at them twice, they must be OK and what they believe is valid. this is borne out in the LifeWay statistics quoted in an earlier post and some Barna research also that shows drastic ignorance of biblical doctrine. I, too, have had Pentecostal friends that have been kind and helpful in certain areas. But I still shy away from encouraging others to be too involved, knowing that false doctrine is the norm among them.
Brother Dave,
I do affirm that I actually have many A of G and others that may be labeled Pentecostal as close friends, neighbors and family members that love the Lord and are a wonderful blessing in my life. Your post seems to be echoing the same.
I can also affirm that many SBCer’s are much more doctrinally deficient than some of the A of Ger’s that I know as well. So the categorization of folks has little to do with the reality of the blessings they are in my life.
Blessings,
Chris
Chris,
You again have made the ‘gold standard” with the following:
“I can also affirm that many SBCer’s are much more doctrinally deficient than some of the A of Ger’s that I know as well. So the categorization of folks has little to do with the reality of the blessings they are in my life.”
I agree with you. And brother that was the goal of my coming onto this thread. I simply wanted to agree with Vol as to who these folks are theologically and yet be able to say that I know many of them and trust that they are brothers even if they are in great error theologically. I believe I can safely say that even about some of the strong sign, snake handling variety of Pentecostals and Holiness folks I have known. I believe they are saved but they “handle” some strange and “venomous” theology. Especially when the electric guitars are cranked up as loud as they can go.
cb
I also want to echo CB and Chris’ sentiment that I dont hate Pentecostal/charismatics. I love them as Brothers and Sisters in the Lord. But, they are theologically in error on many important points, and thus, it makes it very difficult to join with them on many things; especially in evangelistic things.
Dave, it may be a good thing to let you in on something about my family. On my mother’s side, I have had a great grandmother and a grandmother who attended Pentecostal and other Charismatic type churches. I loved both of them very much. My cousin and I were finally able to convince my Great Grandmother, Mama Smith, that her salvation was secure when she was 94 years old. She died two years later happily secure in her salvation. My Mother grew up going to a Pentecostal church two Sundays per month, and going to the Methodist church the other two Sundays. The Churches only had part time preaching back then…circuit riding preachers so to speak. So, they would go back and forth to the two different Churches that were close to them, whenever that particular church had a preacher for that Sunday. Now, my Mom is a Southern Baptist. Thank God! But, I do love many in my family who are members of Charismatic type Churches even today.
So, Bro., when you talk about enjoying fellowship with Pentecostal/Charismatic type Believers, I know first hand. Dont you think?
David
Checking in late on this conversation, as I have been out of the country…
For me, the big question is not the label we put on people (Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc.), but whether or not someone is authentically a member of the same Body of Christ as we are or not. If someone has a testimony of repentance and faith (biblically understood) in the same Jesus in which I believe (once again, biblically understood), then I am obligated (as I understand Scripture) to treat them as my brother or sister in Christ, which implies carrying out all of the “one another” commands of the NT with them.
Now, who we cooperate with and who we don’t cooperate with on specific ministry projects is a different question, from my understanding. One area in which we could use a whole lot more cross-denominational cooperation, and fellowship, from my perspective, is the area of prayer. Most everyone in the SBC will give lip service to this. But, how often to we really, truly engage in cross-denominational prayer?
As far as evangelism is concerned, I believe it depends on the particular case. I agree that, if by cooperating with someone, that necessarily means compromising on my view of eternal security, and communicating a gospel that denies eternal security, then that is an important consideration that very well could limit such cooperation.
However, as others have already pointed out here, cooperating with many “Pentecostals/Charismatics” in many evangelistic efforts does not NECESSARILY involve compromising on eternal security. Up to the point of the divide on eternal security/possibility of apostasy, we share basically the same evangelistic content with most “Pentecostals/Charismatics” (not the minority who teach that speaking in tongues is necessary for salvation).
Must one believe in eternal security to be saved? I would say not. The real question behind this is: In who are they trusting for salvation–their own efforts, or Jesus alone? While the belief in the possibility of losing one’s salvation may well imply, to a certain degree, trusting in one’s own efforts, almost all “Pentecostals/Charismatics” would claim they are NOT trusting in their own efforts, but in Jesus alone, for salvation. I tend to believe them. I think they are just wrong in their understanding, and need to be corrected on this point. But, in their heart, I believe that most of them are truly trusting in Jesus alone.
Now, as far as planting churches together, as I have written about earlier here, there are various aspects of cooperation in church planting (see http://www.sbcimpact.net/2009/04/01/planting-churches-together). On some of these aspects, I believe there can be fruitful cooperation with many “Baptists” and many “Pentecostals/Charismatics.” However, in other aspects (such as jointly determining doctrinal distinctives for a particular church plant), it will be more difficult.
At the same time, it is not automatic that all those affirming the BF&M can collaborate productively on the same church planting team. There are many factors that go in to determining compatibility in such efforts.
Back to the main point of the post, though, as I understand it…
God desires for His children to treat each other as brothers and sisters. We all have a lot we can learn from one another. And we need to actually know each other, recognize each other as members of the same Body of Christ, and cooperate (when possible), in order to be what our Father desires us to be, and live how He desires us to live.
I believe that an erroneous presumption we make is that other “denominations” WANT to cooperate with us but that we take the high ground and refuse.
There are HUGE numbers of folks out there who would NEVER cooperate with a Southern Baptist church in any evangelistic effort, largely due to the simple fact that they see Southern Baptist doctrine as heretical for various reasons. Shoot, there are many Baptists who believe strongly in eternal security but would never have anything to do with a SB church because “we” won’t correct Billy Graham for his ecumenism.
Let’s don’t presume that it’s always “us” doing the “refusing” to cooperate. Sometimes it’s just a mutual understanding that our beliefs are very different and we don’t need to come to a point of arguing about it. We all want to “see people saved”, but we have very different viewpoints of that, and sometimes the best cooperation possible is to let them do their thing whilst we try to do ours without directly causing harm.
Church doctrines are often antagonistic. The fact that church beliefs “clash” has nothing to do with our current members, it has to do with things that were voted on, believed, and promoted by people 50 or 100 or more years ago. We believe what we believe, in many cases, simply because that’s what the church that we were saved in believes. Yet, we would argue with someone who believes differently, in a lot of cases simply because it’s different from what our church believes. My point is, though, that we can’t change the fact that Pentecostals believe MANY things that are different from what Baptists believe, and that many of those things are intertwined hopelessly with soteriology. The very fact that I attend a Southern Baptist church puts me at odds with many of my Free Will Baptist family members. There’s NOTHING that can be done to change that other than one of us changing our beliefs to match the other. We get along as family members, sometimes we are in the same church services for various reasons, but we do NOT agree about many things relative to salvation. The lack of cooperation is not due to a dislike for each other or to an intentional disobedience, but rather to the fact that it is truly impossible for two to walk together if they are not in agreement. Eventually something will divide the path. Some quickly, some slowly. We worship, minister, and evangelize with those that we agree with. How MUCH we do those things with someone is a direct reflection of how much we agree with them or how ignorant we are of the differences.
A few years ago, I was working with some AOG folks in a campus ministry. They didn’t tell me that I had to speak in tongues, but they shared with me about their prayer time, and the tongues in which they spoke. I can’t completely deny tongues (and please save me your in depth exegetical studies about the use of tongues in the New Testament). I grew up conservative SBC, and I have heard someone speak in tongues twice. Never gave it much though. I am not charismatic at all, I am not sure I am even physically able to raise my hands while singing. With my background, my conservative theology, I began to wonder. This was a stretch for me, I am a long time Southern Baptist, I am much more on the Calvinistic side, and stay away from Armenianism, which is obviously more charismatic. (Not much more charismatic that free will and the losing of salvation). I began to question, if this gift is real, and there is truth in it, and it can bring me closer to God, would I want it? Would I be willing to risk my status as a non-Charismatic and be open to the possibility that I would grow closer to God? If all this silliness is true, and I could be closer and more intimate with God, would I be silly?
I fasted and I prayed and I studied the Bible. I am not a Charismatic today. I have never spoken in tongues, been slain in the spirit. I have never had the holy laughs or holy hiccups and I’ve never kicked anyone in the face so they would be healed. What happened to me was simple. I decided I wanted God more than I wanted to hold to my doctrine. I believe that God strengthened my faith. I believe that maybe God does something with other believers for reasons that are not known to me, and perhaps I need to pray for then and love them more than condemn them. That goes from AOG and charismatic, and the silly people in the SBC who believe in landmarkism or hold to Arminian theology (if I just offended you, please raise your hand. Thank you, I see those hands, remember that WE are not always united on every doctrinal issue). I guess I am learning that I need to value mercy.
Wow,
I go away for a few days and the conversation just exploded! From what I’ve read, I’d like to remind everyone to take great care in the crafting of these messages. It can be very easy to read rudeness and curtness into the intensity with which some of these comments have been written.
My biggest concern for joint evangelism is what happens afterwards (assuming we are intending on making disciples, not just converts). I appreciate that Dave knows the beliefs and values of the Charismatic pastors he works with, but he should also be aware of what is being taught in the church as well (I’m stating the principle, not making a guess on whether or not Dave has taken this extra step).
Often we have to look past doctrinal beliefs in our assessments as well. I can say that Southern Baptists more or less share the same doctrinal foundations, but practices vary widely. So too with Pentecostals. Vol mentioned teaching people to pray in toungues. That has been a practice I’ve observed with some of my acquaintances. Another guy I knew who didn’t practice faith healing services, told about how he knew God didn’t want him to be allergic to orange juice and he purposely drank it, sending him to the hospital numerous times, until, “miraculously,” God healed him of his allergy.
I couldn’t do evangelism outreach with another church of questionable doctrine/practice (Charismatic, Baptist, etc.) until I could feel comfortable sending new believers that church for discipleship. It think this should be one of the main principles governing our approach to interdenominational ministry.
Andrew,
In my experience, the way you avoid some of the counterproductive dynamics you are describing here, is as follows:
I have had individuals, and groups, from more Pentecostal/Charismatic leanings, to come in and participate in activities that I (or the church I was working with) was in charge of organizing. On these occasions, they came in with the understanding that, in what they did and said, they were to respect the particular doctrinal stance of those they were working with, and not to teach and do things that went against that. Though there have been violations of this agreement from time to time, for the most part, those I have worked with have been very respectful of this agreement, and, actually, had no problem working under this agreement, as they were happy just to get the opportunity to proclaim the gospel. Those who did not keep the agreement were confronted (first gently, and then, if necessary, more forcefully), and, in some cases, the agreement was broken.
I have also had the opportunity to participate together with Pentecostals/Charismatics in evangelistic activities that they had organized. In such cases, the same agreement (I respected their views) was in place.
Then, there are those cases when you work together in organizing certain activities. On these occasions, it is usually necessary to be a little more specific regarding expectations, and boundaries, etc. But, in my experience, it is definitely doable, and, in many cases, well worth the effort. You just agree mutually to only deal specifically, for that particular project, with those areas of doctrine on which all participants are in agreement.
Sometimes (similar to what happens in a Billy Graham crusade, etc.), there are pre-arranged agreements and plans for how to handle the follow-up, and who will be responsible for discipling who. It is important to talk this all out beforehand, to avoid misunderstanding and potential conflict. But, it is all definitely doable. Usually, in cases like these, there is an agreement that if a member of one church already knows or invites a particular contact, the follow-up will be assigned the church of which that person is a member.
Now, keep in mind, I am talking about people who, by and large, are sound in their basic doctrine. Some may believe you can lose your salvation. Some may believe in the 2nd blessing, etc. But, they are all clear on the authority of the Bible, justification by grace through faith, substitutionary atonement, etc. And, they are people who are not actively sheep-stealing from other denominations and groups.
And, of course, none of this is black and white. There are exceptions, and cases of “gray” in the application of these principles. But, I believe the potential blessings of taking this approach outweigh the potential mess you can get yourself into. It does require much wisdom, discernment, and continual seeking of God, though.
David,
Have you had the opportunity to go to a strong sign Pentecostal or Holiness church? If not, I would like to take you to one and let you have a go at snake handling. I would like to have a video of you with a big Cane Break Rattler tangled up in that Islamic beard of yours.
cb
CB,
I have not had the privilege to go to any snake-handling meetings yet. But, I did go to one meeting where everyone who the visiting evangelist touched on the forehead would go spinning off like a twirly-bird in a trance.
And, by the way, just curious: do you make any distinction between Islamic beards and other kinds of beards?
David,
There is the Mountain Man beard, The Spurgeon Beard, The Mad Bomber Beard, The I Hope This Thing Grows Out Beard, and several others.
Yours, of course is an Islamic Beard. It is very kin to the Henry the Eighth Beard. But since lived in Spain and have male children I made the distinction that you are of the Islamic Beard type of beard wearing guy.
cb
CB,
Am I still allowed to eat during Ramadan? Watch out how you answer. I might bomb you. Oh yeah… that was the Mad Bomber beard. Is there any real difference between the Islamic beard and the Mad Bomber beard?
David Worley,
My point was that my experience with and understanding of charismatics differed from yours. I did not intend to slight you in any way, as CB has so publicly asserted here. If I somehow came across other than I intended, I apologize.
I try to leave your questionable taste in football teams out of it.
I know what was in my mind, but I don’t know how what I tried to communicate came across. I just want you to understand I what my intent was.
I feel I need to clarify again. I did not say that C/P’s had solid theology or that there were not problems.
*I am well aware that most are Arminian. My point was that none of them have pushed that on me in our fellowship.
*The AoG and independent charismatic believers I have fellowshipped with, and those I have studied do not believe that tongues is necessary for salvation. I know that Oneness Pentecostals (UPC) and apostolic groups believe that, but I do not believe they are orthodox Christian groups. I did not fellowship with them and would not.
*My point was that God has blessed my life greatly through fellowship with other Christians, and especially Charismatics. I do think some Southern Baptists have evidenced irrational fear about charismatics and that many have adopted the same separatist attitude I already had.
Just to clarify.
Dan, it is interesting. I had a very similar experience. One of my good friends told me how he thought my prayer life would be blessed if I would open my heart to tongues. I spent a long time in prayer, seeking God, and told him I wanted everything he had for me, everything that would bless my Christian life. If tongues would bless me, I did not want my job or my place in the SBC world to stand in the way.
I got the distinct impression that God was saying something like this to me, “This is not for you.” No audible voices.
I only spoke in tongues once, Dan. It was in 2004 when the Boston Red Sox came back from down 3-0 to the Yankees and won the World Series by winning 8 straight games.
It was not a heavenly language.
That is teh same thing God told me Dave. “It’s not for you”.
Dave,
I wasn’t going to jump into this discussion but I can’t resist. You and I may share one experience regarding fellowship with charismatics. When I first came to Taiwan I had never prayed with our fellowshipped with charismatics or Pentecostals in spiritual matters. Through TMF and other organizations I came to know several charismatics on the mission field. I especially came to appreciate the AoG brothers and sisters. I found they had an evangelistic spirit and prayer life that was to be admired. When Baptists like Billy Graham or Franklin Graham brought their organizations to Taiwan the AoG folks were always welcomed and took an active part in the evangelistic efforts. My life has been blessed by knowing them.
Now for the theological views expressed here. Trying to discuss this with Volfan and CB can be very frustrating. Dave never said that the charismatics did not believe you can lose you salvation. He said that those he knew did not say you needed to speak in tongues to be saved. Yet Volfan kept coming back to the lose you salvation issue. I think we have already mentioned that a surprising number of Baptists in the pew also believe you can lose your salvation. Perhaps that is because there is a thin line between losing you salvation and the way many big time Baptist evangelists, including one former SBC president, urge people to be rebaptized because they were not actually saved the first time or they may had some doubt about their salvation. How many of those being rebaptized by these SBC leaders actually believe they lost their salvation and need to be rebaptized?
CB accuses Dave of making statements based on experience but says Volfan’s statements are based on acquired knowledge. You could just as easily turn that around. I am sure Dave has read statements of belief of charismatics and discussed their beliefs with them. Volfan may be basing his statements on the more extreme examples of charismatic practices we see in the south, including the snake handling, etc. CB accuses Dave of being a bigot but assumes Volfan is pure of motive and thought.
Some could accuse Volfan of being bigoted against those of us theological conservatives and inerrantists who point out the failures of the conservative resurgence and believe that it is not enough to just say you are inerrantist if you go out and live your life as if doesn’t matter whether you follow the teaching of the Bible or not in the way that many CR leaders have done. CB was right when he said hypocrisy knows no bounds. The CR leaders are proof of this. I will always appreciated CB and Ben Cole for their willingness to point out the misuse of CP funds at SEBTS and SWBTS by Paige Patterson and his followers. Perhaps this is what the GCR task force should look at when they are looking for bloated bureaucracies instead of our state conventions. CB and Russell Dilday are two of my heroes. They are both theological conservatives who were fired by the CR bureaucracy because they were willing to speak the truth and not compromise.
I appreciate and agree with David Rogers and Dan Barnes comments on this subject.
Ron, when I was growing up in Taiwan all these years ago, we had something called a “Triple-C” camp (Christ Can Conquer). Ever hear of those. They were run by pentecostal missionaries, but they never pushed partisan doctrine at them. Great times we had.
Ron, since you may be stopping by, I have a question for you. What productive things could a mission team do in Taiwan? I am considering trying to form an overseas team for a trip – small, committed bunch. But I’m not sure what kinds of ministries are available or productive in short term missions.
If you’d rather answer at pastordave@cableone.net, that’s fine.
Yes, I remember triple C camps. Took my son on one. They no longer exist. Most of those type activites for kids are run through Morrison with the exception of the TMF summer conference. The Morrison older kids have several opportunities for mission trips both in Taiwan and to neighboring countries.
I will answer you by email on your question about a team coming out. We host several teams a year from SBC churches. The opportunities range from street evangelism, speaking in schools, prayer walks, special evangelistic opportunities at holidays and on and on. I wish I was going to be here to host you but we are now down to less than one month before we leave. I am grieving. Even though we are going home it is like leaving your home and friends behind. Our Chinese friends have been so gracious to us as we leave that it makes us wish we could stay for another 30 years.
Retirement time, eh? Where do you settle in the US? Anywhere near Iowa?
Ron,
It always amazes me how some people can read the same things I’m reading, and yet, it’s like they either didnt see it very well, or they cant comprehend when reading.
All I can say is,”Wow.”
Why would you come into this discussion, and say the things you did?
David
PS. I hardly ever find CB frustrating.
I just want to leave a note that I’m unsubscribing to the comments from this post. Good grief. Shoulda known better.
Sorry, Bernard.
The point of this is what a blessing charismatics and Pentecostals have been as I have fellowshipped with them through the years. It was not intended to be this way.
Vol,
I can be frustrating. Watch.
Ron,
You know as well as do I that there are probably more “brands” of Pentecostals and Holiness, etc. than there are brands of Baptists.
My point in comment #37 was that Vol was right in what he said about the theological positions of the brothers of the Second Blessing in general. And he is. Dave’s post was based on “experience.” Vol has lived his life with more different types of those folks than Dave can even name. Vol’s comment was accurate. It is based on actual knowledge more than mere personal experiences. You also know that “Charismatic” is relatively new as a descriptive term in comparison to terms like Pentecostal or Holiness, “Church of God”, “Church of God of Prophesy”, etc., etc.
Dave’s post is a post based on some experiences he has had. Vol and I spoke from knowledge of the theological positions of many Pentecostals, etc. We also said we have worked with Pentecostals and Charismatics. I dare say, we have done so more than Dave, David Rogers or you. We are not being disrespectful to them (Charismatics). We just shared the differences. And I have met many who declare you must speak in tongues to be “completely” saved.
I wish I had left this alone. To dialogue with Dave about Pentecostals is like trying to dialogue with him about biblical ecclesiology. It is like fighting “Tar Baby” (see Vol. I told you I could be frustrating)
Lastly Ron, I am sure my name has been mentioned along with Dr. Dilday’s before, but never in the manner you have. Most of the time I was called “devil” and Dr. Dilday was called “hero” when we were mentioned in the same context. You have always amazed me Ron when you comment on a comment thread. In general I think you have sought to be a fair guy. (We have not agreed often, but you are always seeking to be fair. I appreciate that.) I was trying to do the same here, but somehow it got messed up.
BTW, thanks for the thirty years. I say that as a CR guy. I know much of it was during a rough time for you. Of course, I know that thanks from a CR guy may not mean much because it was us who made it rough. And we both know we still would if it were to be done again. But thanks anyway.
cb
I am very disappointed in the direction this has taken. At the risk of preaching, I think we bloggers need to remember that the principles of scripture apply to how we blog.
I did not intend to contribute to that in any way, but if I was not careful in the way I worded things, I apologize to anyone who took offense.
In Matthew 7:16-18, Jesus said, “You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.” It is not just our words that define us, but our actions, our fruit. Do our words and actions bear fruit in line with Christ and the work of the Spirit within us? What fruit does our blogging bear?
Galatians 5:15 warns us about ignoring the law of love. “But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.” We are to discuss, talk, disagree and challenge one another, but we stop biting and devouring one another with our words.
Galatians 5:16 draws a distinction. “But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.” We are to walk by the Spirit, not by the flesh. In keeping with that, we are to blog by the Spirit, not by the flesh.
That chapter goes on to define the things that define fleshly living (and thus, fleshly blogging). “Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these.”
Note that enmity (treating one another as enemies), strife (harsh disagreements that divide the body), fits of anger, rivalries (picking one side over the other – us vs. them) dissenssions, divisions and other things are WORKS of the FLESH.
They are also way too common in blogging.
Galatians 5:22-23 sets a different standard. “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.”
Love (acting for the spiritual good of another) is to mark us.
Patience (putting up with the failings and weaknesses of others)
Kindness (treating others with decency and respect)
gentleness (working to avoid spiritual harm and hurt to others)
Self-control.
These qualities are often in rare measure in some blogging.
I am not sure at this point if I can close comments. If I cannot, I am going to request that the administrators do so.
This comment stream has taken an unfortunate turn and we need to end it.
Dave,
We will settle in Arkansas. I do plan to visit some retired missionary friends of ours in Iowa. When I do I will let you know and if we are close I would love to meet you. I apologize for my part in taking this post away from its original direction.
David W., Many of us have said Wow! at your comments though the years.
CB, I am not sure how you know that Vol has more knowledge than me or Dave or David R. That may be right but how would you know us that well. My problem was not with David W’s theological statements. I don’t disagree. My problem was with him trying to pick a fight when there was nothing to fight about. Dave Miller was just making that point that he has been blessed by his fellowship with charismatics. I didn’t see any place where Dave was defending their theology. Vol cannot resist finding a point of disagreement when someone is trying to say something positive. On that note I admit I cannot resist taking a dig against CR supporters. I have seen too much as you say hypocrisy to let them alone. I admire your willingness to speak out for what you believe. That can get you in trouble with the CR establishment as you and Russell Dilday have both found out.
Ron,
How do you know Vol was trying to pick a fight? You make that judgment of him and then chastise me? And maybe that is the problem here. Maybe other people thought Vol was picking a fight. Maybe that is why they went into a “bunker” mentality. I was, in this case, not picking a fight. I was simply saying Vol was right. I think you agreed in you last comment. Maybe not. Who knows with this as it is now.
Also notice what I said about you, Dave and David: “I dare say, we have done so more than Dave, David Rogers or you.” “I dare say” is a phrase to introduce an opinion. It was not an absolute.
But this matters little now. In all probability, the A of G will become the “point guards” in fulfillment of the Great Commission over and above the SBC due to our present “bottleneck” in failed cooperation. That too is just an opinion.
And I will add this; More power to the A of G in their efforts if, indeed, we (SBC) fail to clean up our own house.
Now a personal note: I understand your “hard time” in resisting to dig at the CR. I guess we owe you that. None the less, I want to again thank you and commend for your service for Jesus and the Kingdom. If you ever get to Birmingham, call me. Lunch is on me.
cb
I continue to be amazed at the indiscretion of some folks posting to this thread. One of the things we have learned in recent years through the various controversies and resignations that have occurred is that indiscreet and intemperate comments on blogs have had a negative impact on some people’s prospects for advancement in the ministry. Remember that this is a public forum and can be read by fellow pastors, church members, search committees, and friends. It is also accessible by those with an axe to grind looking to cast others in a bad light.
Are the comments you have made in this thread really the kinds of quotes you want people to be able to find on a simple Google search on your name? And it doesn’t matter if the quotes are in context or not. Those seeing to oppose your ministry will not pay attention to the context. They’ll just post your comments as proof of whatever agenda they are promoting.
I appreciate y’all’s enthusiasm on the topic, but I do question your wisdom when it comes to putting James 3 into practice.