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Pandering to Youth … Yeah, Right … Wait … What?!!
Posted by Geoff Baggett in Baptist Life, Bible & Theology
I ran across this letter to the editor on page 4 (Baptist Forum section) of the September 15, 2009, edition of the Western Recorder, the newspaper for Kentucky Baptists. It was submitted by Jim Clark of Lexington, Kentucky. I reproduce that letter here – word for word – for your analysis.
An Aug. 25 article reported a conclusion reached as a recent meeting was that the church is not relevant to young people and, therefore, is becoming expendable. Multitudes of young people have ignored the church upon leaving home and realizing the freedom accruing to the no-parent-around circumstance.
Perhaps a better approach would remark that young people are not actually relevant to the church – notwithstanding all the hand-wringing about how to make church relevant to them. Young people generally are idealistic and respond to challenges, especially when “doing good” is involved. What they instinctively understand and generally despise, however, is any effort to pander to them.
For instance, they’ve watched the church adopt their music in worship, transparently pandering to them, instead of expecting them to see that worship is different. They’ve seen churches set up extra services just to feature their approach to worship. They’ve recognized the ease with which to manipulate churches, and young people thrive on beating the system.
They see the church as too weak to withstand pressure, even pressure from immature adolescents – notwithstanding their self-assumed worldliness. They’ve watched preachers pace back and forth like comedians working the crowd, or they’ve watched them dress suitable for the beach in order to be “with it.” Their generation has heard none of the great music of the church or been exposed to the poetry of hymns and knows little more than how to sing the words on the wall.
Worship is the key to a church’s viability. The young suspect that the church panders because it either feels too insecure to challenge them with the best or simply believes them too shallow to sweat the important forming of their spirituality, despite discovering in family and school that this sometimes means enduring learning rather than being entertained.
Interesting …
What do you think?
Personally, I think this may very well be the attitude that is leading to the slow, steady death of the SBC. The attitude that “our way,” the “historic way,” is truly right, holy, and spiritually deep. Therefore, the practices of the newer generation must be wrong, short of holy, and shallow. Any missional changes to adapt to culture as it exists today must be “pandering.”
No wonder our convention is dying. Rather than a “Great Commission Resurgence,” perhaps we need a “Understanding Missional Resurgence.” Or how ’bout a “Common Sense Resurgence?”
Heaven help us …
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I’d say that Mr. Clark was merely describing the attitudes of the folks who did the changing in the church he’s a part of, as well as describing the teenagers who go there.
One of the mind-sets Southern Baptist has is, “How do we fix this?” This was the same approach that Abraham and Sarah had to help fulfill God’s promise. The approach to anything similar to this most needed change is to go through the proper biblical research, counsel and prayer, make a decision and execute it as God’s will in and through faith. You know, some may not like it and will walk away like some who were following Jesus. There are times we must love like Jesus and allow them to leave. Our problem is, we feel guilty for causing them to make a decision for or against Jesus and we just cannot live with ourselves. If we feel that way, we are very carnal and examination of ourselves becomes necessary.
I grew up in the time the “Youth Director” became popular. They were used as a connector to the youth and may be the cause of this “pandering”. Certainly, we prayed and had Bible studies, but, we were separate from our parents who were the one’s God had empowered and given the responsibility to raise and train their children. We seem to have had our paradigm altered through the years and we still think God’s word says something different and continue to pander. We must discern the difference in Spiritual and Flesh. If not, we should progress with more lights, colors, music, entertainment and anything that produces something to look at and feel. Until a generation of kids are properly trained, apart from the influences of “anything goes”, and their spirit has matured under the guidance of godly parents and supported by the church we will see no change.
Our pastor’s wife was speaking to our class one Sunday and there were the standard prayer request before she spoke. (That’s what we do as Southern Baptist) One lady’s request was that God would heal Farah Fawcett. She went on to say that God would get allot of publicity if He did and many would possibly be saved from that. (Sigh) Now the lady that made that request is the Director of Sunday School. This lady raised children that are in the church promoting the pandering. It is a vicious cycle and out of control.
I heard D.A. Carson speak about his father in an audio lecture I downloaded online. Here is a quote from his book, Memoirs of an Ordinary Pastor: The Life and Reflections of Tom Carson.
Scattered through the journals of his last two years of life are lines like these: “Keep me from the sins of old men”—some of which he details: a tendency to gravitate toward watching television, the temptation to look backward instead of forward, sliding toward self-pity, easy resentment of young men.
I think one of the dangers we face is resenting the next generation. Is each successive generation worse than the last? Culture certainly changes over time, but ought we criticize the youth because they have differenty musical tastes? Dress codes? Footwear?
We can criticize people because they sing the line “Oh how he loves us” twelve times in a row in a song and because they wear shorts when passing out the bread and the fruit of the vine, but we forget that even the hymns and formal attire of yesterday would be out of place in a 1st century church.
I’m tempted to argue that we haven’t been pandering to the youth, but rather criticizing them. We look down on pastors who use the NIV in their preaching as if they were dumbing down the message. We get upset that he lists the page number along with the reference because everyone should know how to find Matthew 16. We complain that the youth group is hosting a “Christian Rock” concert the week after school starts to invite their friends in because we’d rather have a Southern Gospel quartet playing the banjo and bass.
Are there extremes on both sides? Yes. Absolutely. But to lay the blame on the next generation’s approach to ministry because that’s not WSWD (What Spurgeon Would Do), is flirting with the danger of 1 John 1:8 “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”
I guess I’m confused …
For a couple of generations the church has been thrilled with age-group focused ministries. (After all, it got all of the little critters away from the adult stuff …) But now that a new generation’s cultural approach to worship and church is bringing about change in the church overall … the proverbial chickens have come home to roost … now it is called “pandering.”
Hmmm…
Brother Geoff,
If the SBC dies, it is for lack of a High View of God whether is be from the adults steeped in tradition or young people trying to carve out their own new tradition. This devolving from God’s Word plagues the church. We, both adults and youth, should return to the deeds done at first, placing our eyes on Christ, not our favorite tradition.
If it becomes tradition vs. tradition, then both adults and youth lose. Youth are a product by in large of their parents and what their parents are teaching. The order is to train up the child, not to compete with the child. Children and Youth who resent the ways of their parents, is typically borne out… because the ways of their parents have little substance, very little faith, and a veiled view of Christ.
That is the point of Hosea…..
Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being My priest. Since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children.
Whether you are young or old, the truth remains the same. All Christ followers are excited concerning the same thing which brings wisdom and understanding.
Proverbs 9:9-10 Give instruction to a wise man and he will be still wiser, Teach a righteous man and he will increase his learning. (10) The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
In our current day,….the youth are woefully ignorant of the gospel, and have learned that ignorance from their parents. That is the greatest problem in the churches today.
Blessings,
Chris
I think, Geoff, that there is truth on both sides of this debate.
We live in a changing, in fact changed, culture. We will not be effective with those things that were derived from the culture of the 50′s.
On the other hand, we cannot reach youth just by mimicking youth culture either.
The trick is finding that balance – cultural relevance without compromise. I think we err to one side or the other way too often.
Ummmm, this seems to be a desperate reach to justify closing down of youth departments.
The biggest reason more youth drop out of church now than in years past is that more youth go to college or move away from home immediately upon leaving high school than they did 40 years ago. 40 years ago youth either got married immediately and started a family – understanding and assuming responsibility quickly, which translates more to the mentality that is required to GET UP ON SUNDAY MORNING – or else they continued living with their parents until they were married. Church WAS a social location. It is not now.
Pandering? Hogwash. Some of the most solid Christian young folks I know lived through the so-called pandering of a youth group and thought it was a great thing.
This is entirely too much analysis. Being non-religious is MUCH cooler now than it used to be; comparing the time frame statistics based on a single variable is bunk. MANY other factors than “presence or absence” of youth oriented events influence this.
Terrible analysis. Any engineer that analyzed a manufacturing trend in this fashion should be fired immediately. It’s akin to claiming that it rains less because we have more efficient toilets.
There is a difference between evangelism and entertainment within the youth arena. When it is important to have a large youth group there is always some kind of compromise or we simply look the other way thinking that by being around Christians the bad influencers will come to Christ. Not so. There is just a large amount of people that we are looking at as if they are Christian. The truth be known, only about 10% or less are truly born again. Our methods used to build youth groups are not biblical and we can crowd in more heathen with our kids than they use to. We simply know how to do it better with entertainment and activity.
I don’t think anyone has the absolute answer to why kids stop coming to church. Bottom line, all believers have the same Spirit. The test is time, not a short space of time, either. Perseverance is the lifetime of a person and the end will prove itself. We must invest in those we can discern who are true believers.
By the way, it does rain less because we have more toilets. It’s a conspiracy.
Uhhhhh….
“The truth be known, only about 10% or less are truly born again.”
Pure speculation. Based on the very nature of the characteristic, this cannot be proven by testimony of anyone except God Himself. We don’t have specific testimony from God relating to the salvation percentage of youth who attend youth events. Sorry, case dismissed.
And….
“…it does rain less because we have more toilets. It’s a conspiracy.”
I said “more EFFICIENT toilets”.
We’re more determined to raise up youth that look like us than we are to raise up youth that live like Christ.
Sorry, I missed this part… “We must invest in those we can discern who are true believers.”
I simply cannot find words to register my disagreement. I want to say that in a friendly way to avoid being confrontational, but you and I have RADICALLY different perspectives here. And if I thought mine was wrong, I’d find one that I thought was right.
Bernard,
When anyone can determine that more than 10% exist I will jump in on the revival. Apparently, there is 60 to 100 fold fruit production from those in the good soil and it has been diluted by 90% with the influx of those who only have head faith. It is still about 10% pure either way you look at it. We are not seeing a great movement of God. We are seeing, however, a movement. If it were of God there would be no distinguishing lines between youth and adult because the Spirit is the same. Many have just focused so much on using fleshly methods to get kids interested in going to church. The music is all that is discipling them because they wont even carry a bible. The words of the songs are very far away from the biblical doctrines everyone needs to know and impliment in their lives. You cannot expect to have more than 10%.
Efficiency. Right. I was just making a comment not a legal statement.
If you don’t believe in discipleship you have missed a very important part of the believer’s responsibility. That is what we are to do with Youth. Getting a bunch of “decisions” and doing nothing with them will create similar approaches to our youth departments as mentioned here. Find the one’s who show the right signs of true belief and disciple them to maturity. They will, in-turn, be able to work with others as we are instructed in scripture.
Thanks for disagreeing with me. It made me look and now I am more convinced.
Bruce -
I’m a complicated feller to argue with
This is complicated, and I’m abandoning my response. This is very sensitive to me, and I’m very emotionally charged about it right now. Virtually anything I write is going to be harsh, frustrated, and possibly insulting. I don’t want to do that, because I don’t believe that’s how a follower of Christ should react.
Thank you for your time; we disagree in ways that perhaps neither of us will understand for a long time. I’m choosing to hold my peace, because there’s really nothing at stake in continuing the discussion.
I am VERY frustrated with a lot of church related “themes” at this time in my life, and it’s unfair to make you the recipient of that frustration. I sincerely wish you the best and pray that I have not already been inappropriate.
Bernard,
I have a friend that is complicated in many ways. Strong beliefs are similar to iron. Sparks tell us that we are pinpointing our beliefs and forcing them to the surface. It reinforces itself or breaks off to allow stronger truer beliefs to emerge. Sorry you cannot respond. I do appreciate dialog, even if it is confrontational. That limits our ability to know and understand each other.
You have been open and I appreciate that. Thank you.
I could respond, but I need to keep my own attitude in check
Your points are not wasted or completely discounted.
Churches have had youth groups since the 1930′s or earlier. So if in fact anything has changed for the worse in the last 70 years must be something else except the presence of “youth groups” since they have been around during the whole time.
Roger Simpson
General comment to all:
If our churches are not crossing the lines of age we are guilty of disobeying God’s command. Scripture tells us that, “Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all [of you] be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.” 1 Peter 5:5 The older women are to teach the younger, and so forth. By separating we have created a flaw within God’s system of order and He simply does not enter that kind of place. We have fooled ourselves when we do not follow obediently what God has instructed us to. Jesus said He will build His church. The one thing we do well is stick our fleshly hands into God’s plan to make something happen. If we would just obey His commands we may see different results.
Sometimes we like to pretend this is an either/or issue.
Either we do ministry the contemporary way or we train them up to be disciples.
Either we do ministry the traditional way or we compromise the gospel.
We look at poor examples that are so far to the right or left that we discount any possibility that the other side may have a point. Are youth (and not just them anymore) biblically illiterate? In modern America they are. What is the response? One church person says, “If they can’t read the King James Version, then they are just stupid.” Another church person says, “Just put all the text in the PowerPoint.” Neither one of these responses helps people come to an understanding of what’s between the two covers of their Bible.
I work in training and a story is told in our division that an executive was walking past our training classrooms and heard people laughing inside and complained that if people were laughing in class they must not be learning anything. Some people believe the same about youth groups. The truth is that in neither situation is that premise necessarily true.
I know that it can be frustrating that youth don’t know as much about the Bible as we think they should, but we have to remember that not everyone is churched anymore. Teens coming into the youth group from outside weren’t exposed to the stories of Noah and the Ark, Moses and the Exodus, or even Jesus on the Cross when they were growing up. Some understanding needs to be given towards new believers or seekers who don’t have 10 years of Sunday School under their belt.
I’ve been on the other end too though. I’ve seen youth groups where the on-fire Christians (including myself) left because the non-Christians not only outnumbered us (which isn’t necessarily a bad thing), but out-influenced us.
A healthy balance is necessary, but let’s not kid ourselves and pretend my generation’s spiritual problem has to do with styles of clothes and music, references to pop culture in sermons, or youth concerts. In my opinion, the issue is more about what we’ve neglected than what we’ve done.
Chris: I would disagree that the young people don’t know the gospel. I believe that it is our generation that lost it or doesn’t know it. We have been preaching another gospel for too long and it’s the young people who are going to their Bibles, seriously reading and studying it and are wanting to get the gospel back into the churches.
Bernard: As you know I agree with your points, share your frustration and your emotions on this topic.
Debbie / Bernard
Maybe it would benefit all if you could express your frustration in the written word. I am very interested. I like what Andrew expressed because it expanded the view. I would like to have more of a panoramic view if you please. I am most sincere in my request, too.
Bruce – I’ll attempt to do so at some point; right now just isn’t a good time for me to do that. I’m at work and this will take some time
I’d think that Paul’s statement about becoming “all things to all people” would indicate that WE need to change, if need be, to get the job done; not that we demand change from those to whom we’re to minister.
I doubt he’d call that “pandering”.
Wow. Lots of baggage here. I thought the comment that the church isn’t relevant to youth because youth aren’t relevant to church had a lot of substance to it. But that’s not the direction this conversation went at all.
I suggest that the reason the church is losing the youth (if in fact it is) is because they don’t offer them an opportunity to participate in the substantive work of the church.
If you look at the rise of youth ministry (see: http://blog.christianitytoday.com/outofur/archives/2007/05/how_teenagers_t.html for a start) you see that the more involved people are, the more engaged they are with ministry, the more likely they are to stay.
Or you can see what others think at: http://emethsgarden.blogspot.com/2009/06/really-radical-youth-ministry-another.html
rick
There’s so much to try to say to put this is words, in one respect, that I don’t have a clue where to start.
Let me try to start by saying that I am basically a Southern Baptist. My general theology is somewhat Reformed, though I don’t necessarily consider myself a Calvinist of the flowery nature…
I typically can’t endure the nonsense, however, that is spouted by much of the Reformed crowd.
Those two paragraphs are necessary to get a grip on why what we’re talking about is a big deal to me.
I’ve endured sermon after sermon from a pastor that was convinced, based on a loose statement by Billy Graham, that 80% of his church wasn’t truly saved. “You might not be saved, you might not be saved…” It brought me to my knees in many ways. It did, blessedly, result in something in my life that may well have been my true conversion.
But I still don’t appreciate the “doubt sowing” technique. It festers. Especially when preached by someone who espouses the line of “you MUST know that you know that you know.” (Making the conclusion that if one doubts, one may not even be saved.) Thus, my reaction to “only 10% are saved anyway” is not a pleasant one.
An unfortunate outgrowth of Calvinism is the fruit tester mentality. We feel more free than we should to treat certain people in certain ways depending on whether we believe their conversion is real or not. We don’t REALLY mean to do that, and we would claim that we don’t, but it’s fairly obvious when viewed from the perspective of a partial adopter. (That’s me, who is only partially flowered…)
The statement “We must invest in those we can discern who are true believers” is fraught with danger in my churchview. If someone is CLEARLY not a believer, that is one thing. However, to make the judgment to cast them aside simply because they are not meeting MY standards for growth indicative of perseverance, is highly erroneous.
Surely, we must evaluate methods as to whether they point to Christ, whether they truly portray the Gospel, and whether they give glory to God, but to evaluate a method based on the number of conversions that result is to actually adopt a “seeker friendly” mentality, with stricter rules for judging conversions.
The typical line that I see / hear is that discipleship is more important than just counting conversions. Well, I believe that we have terribly dropped the ball in America’s churches regarding discipleship. You and I are very much aligned here. However, THE NEED FOR DISCIPLESHIP IN NO WAY JUSTIFIES LESSENING OUR EFFORTS AT EVANGELISM. If we have youth events that are producing 10% true conversions, I propose to you that we need to KEEP having those youth events, and put even MORE resources on task to properly disciple the 10%. If the 10% were currently being discipled properly, our churches would be turned upside down.
The flaw is not in the youth group that produced the 10%. (If that’s even a correct number; I am convinced that it’s higher.) The flaw is in the church that abandoned the 10%.
Youth pastors can’t win. They’re disliked by many simply because they are youth pastors. They have the most expensive programs in the church because youth don’t have money. You can’t take up an offering at a youth Bible study and get $10. Yet, they are criticized for not doing enough. Often they are working a part time job to feed their own kids, yet parents expect more and more from them, demanding that they do more and more for the youth group.
And then they read an article that says their very existence is a bad thing. Thanks for nothing.
My point is that adults in the church, as well as the PARENTS of the youth themselves, should exert MAXIMUM effort into discipling these NEW CONVERTS. The oldest Christian in a youth group has probably only been a Christian 10 years at MOST, and yet we expect them to be grown Christians. That’s bunk. We need to gently, firmly, and lovingly disciple EVERY professed Christian youth that we have a chance to influence. Are they all truly converted? Possibly not. But, my brother, I maintain that the love of an elder and the process of discipleship will do much toward drawing them to Christ; much more than throwing them out to the wolves and “investing in those who we can DISCERN are truly converted.”
I also maintain that the older generation has a myriad of sins to repent of for expecting Christian teens and youth workers to do the job that they were called to do from the moment they conceived those children 15 years ago. It is NOT up to the church to fully disciple a youth. It is the job of the PARENTS. However, the church has done much to crush the energy of youth, to turn them into crotchety old men rather than champions for Christ. I’ve seen it, brother, I know what I’m talking about. I KNOW kids who, possibly unconverted, I understand, were involved in church, were trying to follow God, had lots of potential, and are now living an entirely different lifestyle with no interest in God at all, primarily because of STUPID decisions made by selfish church leaders who didn’t do a good job of keeping their own emotions in check. A youth program destroyed, kids tossed to the wind.
I don’t talk down to the kids I teach. I try to make the subjects understandable and relevant to things they understand, but I hope they hear from me the real news of the Gospel and what sin really is. I don’t have many kids to teach. But I hope they know I’m real.
I know there are problems in America’s churches. But the standard old school line is to blame the younger generation, and that’s bunk. Most of the time the kids are the only energy, determination, and real Christian spirit that there is in the entire church.
Why do they LEAVE church? Because the church doesn’t want to change. Immediately upon turning 19, they are expected to be adults, to leave their entire world behind and join the 70-year old blue hairs. Thus, they are unwelcome, unwanted, and unfamiliar. Of course they drop out.
My hands are tired. Maybe more later.
Thanks for listening. Hope this gives a little insight to where I stand. Debbie, I don’t know if we’re still on the same page, but thanks for the kind words
Andrew, you are a pretty young guy aren’t you? You evidence a lot of wisdom for a young whipper-snapper.
Bernard,
Hang in there, brother! I think you are pretty much on target.
BTW, I am a 57 year old pastor, and I hear much of the same attitudes and frustrations you encounter. “We” (i.e., some of “us” who are older) have some unrealistic expectations for youth. What some of my generation (and more so, of the older generations) fail to comprehend is that much opf the traditional church was once edgy and subsersive. In the 50s, it was Southern Gospel music that was an insult to the tried and true Biblical music by folks like Fanny Crosby; but when that generation grew up, Southern Gospel was normative. To an earlier generation, hymn writers like Fanny Crosby were an insult to the tried and true Biblical music by people like Charles Wesley and John Newton; but when that generation grew up, 19th Century hymnology became normative. To a still earlier generation, writers like Newton, Cowper, et al were an insult to the Psalms, which had long been the hymn book for the church. But when that generation grew up. . . you get the picture. Musical tastes change, and the church reflecting today’s tastes is no more pandering than it was to start singing B.B. McKinney or Amazing Grace or A Mighty Fortress Is My God. Unfortunantly, we have a short memory. I guess my advantage here is that I was not raised in the church, so when I became a Christian, as an adult, I could see more clearly. I liked bluegrass music before I was converted, and I still do; I like classical music before, and I still do. I liked the Beetles before I was converted, and I still do. Conversion did not change my musical tastes; and for those who say theirs did, I have to wonder if something else was not also operative–maybe an unspoken desire to just “fit in” and conform.
And we can bandy numbers about all day, but without evidence, they are just opinions. Opinions are like noses: everybody has one, and some smell better than others. One of my opinions is that some youth leave the church because they are never converted; but others leave because they see its hypocracy in proclaiming cultural mores as Biblical; another is because the church, by and large, refuses to let them participate in leadrship (when a previous church I pastored had a committee to consider contemporary worship, I suggested a couple of Christian youth to be on it–they said simply that they did not let anyone under 21 serve on church committees).
And again BTW: the KJV became popular because especially in the revision of 1779, it reflected the language of the average person. In the 1600s, it was the Bible of choice for the English upper classes, but the Geneva Bible was preferred by most Baptists because it was written the way they spoke. Now we set it aside as some special and almost divine “Bible language” when that was not the case 200+ years ago. Plus, my east Alabama tongue gets all tangled up in its thee’s and thou’s and whither’s and wherefort’s.
John
Thanks for the compliment, Dave, and yes, I am pretty young (not yet 22). Chalk up any wisdom coming from my keyboard to the grace of God. I’m sure that most of the time people have to separate a lot of the chaff from what I say to find a kernel of wisdom.
Bernard,
I appreciate your response. This may be what today’s churches need to focus on in a controlled environment to better understand what separates us. Both sides of the age spectrum need to come together and discuss this openly. How do we truly worship in unity when harboring feelings both sides have expressed in the many responses above. Truly, we have exposed a nerve that now runs through our system.
I will comment on each paragraph by numbering from top to bottom.
Paragraph 2 & 3 – I am in general agreement with you. Many like to use “shock and awe” to get their message across and forget the proper way to expound Truth. They may be unbalanced like the Easter Island idols; not much body but allot of head in their message.
Paragraph 5 & 6 – The way a person preaches or teaches has been, in part, affected by their life experience. I tend to push the assurance button within my lessons because I walked an isle at 6 and found saving faith at 25. I try to balance it in my lessons but it is hard to do. The thought in the back of my mind was, “What if I had died before then?” Many do die. Ask your pastor about his conversion and see if that may be the cause of his emphasis on assurance.
The percentage or 10% or 20% is based upon what some have experienced. There is living faith and dead faith out there. Our church youth group had 60 who attended regularly between 1972 to 1974. When I was in the group I felt that everyone was saved because of our activities, Bible studies and the prayer time. We were close to each other. There was a reunion of the whole church several years ago. As some of us sat together and reminised we discovered that only between 4 and 6 of all those in our group are still in church somewhere. I don’t really know if that percentage is accurate across the Christian spectrum, however, if God lives within the heart of a person and there is a new creation within there is a change and that change mimics it’s Creator and Sustainer. These are only personal stats. You will have your own as you continue to minister.
Paragraph 7 – As a teacher, I began to find a strong desire to study grace. After several months I began to add comments in my lessons about grace. One Sunday a young lady interrupted me and said, “That’s Calvinism!”, at which I affirmed to her that I was not Calvinist and it was not Calvinism. She continued to explain and I went back to find that I was teaching grace from the Calvinistic view point. Wow, what an exciting doctrine! My studies took me deep within the Calvinistic doctrines and I enjoyed them very much. I find that I gravitate toward those of like feather but not to exclude others. I know I was saved when I had Arminian views and I know there are various levels of maturity on each side of this debate, too. The deciding factor for a Believer is the Spirit that both possess. I have experienced true believers from the many flavors of denominations out there. I just think those who are driven to help new believers mature in the faith should be in place within the church and should take action whether in the youth or adult departments. There are other spiritual gifts that need to be active, but I am speaking from my gift’s point of view. I should be able to tell if someone has the Spirit of God living within them based upon the fact that I know the same Spirit lives within me. There should be a level of relation between us because of that.
Paragraph 8 – When I read this my first thought went to the four (4) soils Jesus spoke of. The result is that the first and last soils bring us to an obvious conclusion; saved and lost. It is the middle two soils that create the heartburn for many. Some say these people are lost because they produced no fruit, others say that they are backslidden. Which one is right? Regardless, I think the safest approach is to consider the fruitless ones so questionable that you must consider the worse. That way, the person who is fruitless would consider their ways to be obviously un-Christ like when you asked them if they were a Christian. My approach has had much success and that is why I approach everyone that way until they prove otherwise. Then again, my gift would drive me to approach it this way, too. I see things black and white. I deal with my sin the same way I would deal with others, too. Keep in mind, we are not face to face speaking so you do not see my complete heart in this matter. I do not look down my nose at anyone. We must be wise as serpents and harmless as doves as we discern behavior traits of people. People must be saved and mature in the Lord and, at the same time, the flock must be protected so we must be ever watching in order to do the work of the ministry.
Paragraph 10 – 100% agreement. The SBC literature is directed more toward evangelism than discipleship. Our whole SBC organization is driven with evangelism with less emphasis on discipleship. The men leading the SBC know the importance of discipleship and simply throw a bone at it from time to time. I suggest finding literature outside LifeWay for various levels of maturity to implement in church discipleship. (Much can be said and should be said here) This is my thorn.
Paragraph 11 – 100% agreement.
Paragraph 12 & 13 – Youth Pastor’s have a tough job. If they are called to this position they will endure and mature. Nothing can be done to critics because they are the sand paper uses to smooth out our edges before the stain and lacquer is applied to make us into what Christ saved us to become. God is working through them and on them at the same time. Our churches need reform in order to be what we are meant to me. How that comes about is going to be through the movement of the Holy Spirit. The hearts of men cannot be influenced toward the change that is necessary. Only God can do that and we need to be moved to pray. Keep in mind that some churches have a Children’s Minister, too. Both of these positions need to know that they must maintain constant contact with the parents and visa versa in order to properly lead youth. Separation is not the answer. Parents must be involved in the youth ministry and the leadership must make that happen.
Paragraph 14 & 15 – 100% Agreement. Unfortunately, there are adult people who are not saved that sit in prominent positions. They should know what to do and, yet, they fly under the radar and destroy. That is why I do not accept the face value of anyone or anything. I only believe in movement. What they do says more than what they say. You don’t have to be a critic or be judgmental to properly discern them, either. Pray for wisdom so you can distinguish between good and evil. You may be accused of judging or condemning, but, you will know the difference.
Paragraph 16 & 17 – Agreeable – If the church is that way you need to get out. All of your fruitful evangelism could be affected. My first step would be to talk to the leadership the same way you did here. They can help you make your decision. Change may come slow. Be willing and patient if you stay. Your desire to be right has been influenced by the bad actions of others and God has taken you through this to conform you to Jesus Christ. If your actions reflect what Jesus does then God’s plan for you worked.
Paragraph 18 – Expand your view of this. There are as many reasons youth leave church as there are youth. We do not come to change anything, we come to worship, glorify God, fellowship, serve one another, exhort one another, love, disciple and evangelize. There are other reasons we come to corporate worship, too. Tradition has its good points and too much change can corrupt. Changing must be based upon biblical principle and proven results. That takes time. Approach change as gently as possible. If change is absolutely necessary it may be found elsewhere in order to prevent destroying or splitting a church. There are churches that accommodate what you are looking for now. Then you could experience how it would be and discover if there would be any flaws within the change you are looking for. You may be surprised.
Thank you for expressing your heart thoughts on this matter. Much is agreeable here. I think those who are led by the Spirit in these matters must proceed in the spirit of Christ and confront the issue within the church. If nothing is said, nothing is accomplished and no one is changed. Our pilgrimage here consists of functioning within the revealed Truth God has given us. We must move in the direction His grace has led us. The outcome will be His glorification and the strengthening of our holy faith.
Sister Debbie,
I think you got the point I was trying to make. The parents that do not know the gospel probably have dispensed that same ignorance to their children. The principle of teaching our childrent the Word of God is clear in scripture.
What I am not saying is that the children/youth in and of themselves are not able to know the Gospel. I know they can, through the preaching of the Word of God. But, there is little doubt that we are living in a culture of ignorance. Maybe we all can help change that some extent.
Blessings,
Chris