From an Eschatalogical Dinosaur: Am I the Last Pretribulationalist Left?
Posted by Dave Miller in Bible & Theology
In polite society, you are not supposed to discuss religion and politics. Perhaps in blogging, it is eschatology that we should not discuss. The SBC has 412 varieties of eschatological views and discussing them has the distinct possibility of turning into a free-for-all.
I have never had much patience for puzzles – it’s just too hard to figure out how all the pieces fit together. Eschatology is sort of like a puzzle. You study scriptures from Daniel, Ezekiel, Matthew, 1 and 2 Thessalonians and the Revelation and many other places. Each of those passages is a piece of the puzzle. We then try to fit all the piece together into a unified whole. It is not an easy task. We are not allowed to throw out pieces we don’t like. And we cannot force pieces into places they do not fit. Every one of us, if we are honest, finds a few passage-pieces that are hard to fit in to our view. But our job is to try to fit all the eschatological pieces together as a unified whole while treating each piece with integrity.
Once, many pastors and leaders in the SBC fit the puzzle together in a way very similar to the way I fit them together. There was a large group of Southern Baptists who were premillennial, pretribulationalists like me. Sometimes, in recent days, I have begun to feel like a dinosaur (to mix a metaphor or two). There are a lot of Preterists, Partial Preterists, Amillennialists around. We even find a Postmillennialist lurking here and there. Most of the young bucks I have talked to seem to describe themselves as “historic premillennial.” They believe in a future millennial reign of Christ on earth but believe either that the church will go through the tribulation period, or that the tribulation period is a symbol of our present day suffering.
I hear a lot of disparagement directed towards those of us who embrace (even tepidly as I do) the dispensationalist label. I just don’t hear many folks in the blog world trumpeting their pre-trib status. That’s why I’m beginning to feel like a dinosaur, outdated as a 70’s leisure suit. I’m a Biblicist in an Emergent world. I’m a complementarian in an increasingly egalitarian Christendom. And, I sometimes wonder if I’m the last pre-tribber left in captivity.
So, today, I’m going to share a few reasons why I am still a mildly (progressive?) dispensational, premillennial, pretribulationalist. There is no way that I can be either comprehensive or perhaps convincing on this blog. There’s not enough space. We’ve been arguing this for years and my little effort here probably won’t make much difference. But at least we can have some fun hurling eschatological slush-balls at each other. Actually, my goal is modest. I’d like to give some of the reasons I have stuck with my view. Generally, people think that we are only pre-trib because we haven’t studied scripture or matured in our beliefs. I’d like to think I have a few decent reasons for what I believe.
So, here are my reasons.
1) Let’s face it, folks. Dispensationalists have the coolest charts. Have you ever seen a full-color Preterist diagram of the end-times? Doesn’t happen. How can you folks claim your view is biblical if you can’t even produce a decent map of Daniel’s Seventy Weeks?
2) Another fact, my friends. We have the most entertaining extremists. Actually, they are often used to define my view, which is patently unfair. You don’t define Calvinism by Hyper-Calvinists. And you shouldn’t define pretribulationalism by Jack and Rexella. (By the way, do Historic Premillennialists have anyone who can compare to Rexella? I don’t think so! Strike two!) But we can produce a LOT of really entertaining and strange views. Who else can claim that?
Now, let me take this is a slightly more serious turn.
3) I appreciate the attempt to apply a consistent literal hermeneutic to “prophetic” scriptures. I read a blog (written by someone who does not hold my view) recently that was discussing who the 144,000 Jewish witnesses of Revelation 7 really are. By the time he was done explaining this and that symbolism, based on absolutely no exegetical evidence at all, he had arrived at an interpretation you could never come to simply by reading the text. When you make everything symbolic, you can make it say pretty much anything you want. I know there are lots of things about eschatology that are confusing and difficult. But I like that in my view, 1000 years means, well, 1000 years, 42 months means 42 months, and the 144,000 Jewish servants of God are actually 144,000 Jewish servants of God. No system is perfect, but I like trying to use a literal hermeneutic.
NOTE: the literal hermeneutic does not, as is sometimes accused, require that all things be taken literally. We recognize that there are figures of speech in the Bible. We just want to interpret them in their most logical, natural way.
4) I like that my view allows the fulfillment of God’s promises to Israel. Replacement theology has never seemed quite fair to me. If God made promises to Israel, shouldn’t they be fulfilled to Israel? If I promised you $100, then gave the money to someone else and said that they had replaced you to receive the gift, you might be upset. One of the key tenets of my belief is that Israel and the church have distinct parts in God’s purpose, but that those purposes remain distinct.
Romans 11 seems to spell this out. In verse 1, Paul makes it clear that God has not rejected Israel. I do not see how you can read that chapter and argue that God has set aside Israel forever. Verses 25 and 26 tell us that Israel has experienced a hardening until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Then, all Israel will be saved. Israel is beloved for the sake of the forefathers. Verse 29 could not be more clear to me. “God’s gifts and calling are irrevocable.” The context makes it clear that Israel is in view here. God will not revoke his calling of Israel. She will return to prominence in the end times and receive all the promises God gave to Abraham.
5) Premillennial Pretribulationalism holds, in my view, the correct view of Revelation 4-19. In Revelation 4-5, there is a scroll in heaven which only the Lamb of God is worthy to open. On that scroll are written the judgments of God on earth. Jesus breaks the seals and God’s judgment in released in what we call the Tribulation. Historic Premillennialism argues that Christians have no reason to believe we will escape the hardship of the future. But Revelation makes it clear the Tribulation is not about the persecution of the saints primarily, but is primarily about God’s wrath being poured out. God removes his church so that he can pour out his wrath. This requires a much longer discussion than we can have here, but this is a key argument to me.
6) It is clear to me that passages like Matthew 24, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, some of the Old Testament passages, and pretty much all of Revelation beginning with chapter 4 describes future events. Just cannot go with the Preterist flow, folks. When Jesus ascended in Acts 1, the angel promised he would come again in the same way – descending in visible glory – a future event. Revelation 1:19 distinguishes the vision between things that are and things that are yet to come.
7) I admitted earlier that there is a lot of silliness that goes on in pretribulationism. But there are also some amazing things that have happened in this world that were predicted by pretribulationalists well before they happened. I had in my possession (and have subsequently lost) a book from the 19th Century predicting the restoration of the nation Israel. Without going into sensationalism, we can point to a lot of modern events that align with what we have been expecting to see all along. I know this is a proof that will only encourage those who already hold the view and will mean little to those who hold other views. But there’s some pretty cool stuff (and some scary stuff, too) happening out there.
Ultimately I believe, after significant study, that the premillennial, pretribulational view fits the pieces of the Bible together the best. It makes sense of all the scriptures without ignoring or doing exegetical violence to any of the individual pieces. I know many, perhaps most of my readers will not agree. But I could wish that those with other views would respect that you can study scripture and come to my view.
Eschatology is, most certainly, a tertiary doctrine. My youth pastor is historic premillennial. I knew this when I hired him and it didn’t affect my recommendation to hire him even a little. My associate pastor used to talk about being “pan-millennialist” but that irritates me so much I think he has stopped saying that. Neither of my staff pastors shares my view. This is not a fundamental doctrine.
I think eschatology matters. We should study it, discuss it, insult one another freely, then continue to serve God together. (One exception – the more extreme preterist view bothers me; I’m not sure it is fundamentally faithful – still working through that one.)
But, we can argue this out, then join hands and sing “Kumbaya” – pretrib, historic premill, amils and postmills alike. We can even let the partial preterists join the circle, if they will sing quietly, with heads down in humility, right? I do not believe that any Christian’s love for the Word should be questioned because of an eschatological view.
At least we can all agree on this. “Even so, Lord Jesus, come quickly.”



I am historic premillenial. I have come to that view recently having been raised in dispensational baptist churches. My problems with dispensationalism (is that a word?) are:
1) In the course of church history it is a “new” doctrine. Why is it none of the church fathers or any other serious theologian came to these conclusions before the 19th Century A.D.? No, not everything new is bad, but I really wonder about an eschatology that didn’t exist for some 1800 years and then suddenly is the rage. I’m just sayin…..
2) I feel like the idea that we will be “rescued” before things get bad is a fairly self-centered idea. It has the flavor of “God will not let me suffer, because I don’t like pain.” And I just can’t find that kind of thinking in the Bible. Peter and John rejoiced that they had suffered for Jesus. The New Testament is written to a persecuted church. To think that there will be a time when suddenly the church is not here for suffering seems to counter the passages on persecution.
3) I can find nothing in Scripture that even resembles the “secret rapture” of the church. Yes, I know the passages about being “caught up” and I agree that will happen, but I don’t think they will happen secretly so much as suddenly. Everyone will know what happened. There will be no confusion as to where people went.
Thanks for bringing this up. It is fun to discuss eschatology because the one thing we all know is that we don’t know for sure and won’t until it comes to pass.
Blessings,
Tony
I’m headed to the golf course. I will respond as best I can when I get back – if my humiliation isn’t too great from my golf score.
As I have considered the pre, post and ah ideas of Jesus returning in recent days I have decided to try to follow the prophesy of the first coming of the Messiah in the same way we are looking at the end-time return of Christ. Since those of the Old Testament seemed to miss the first coming of Christ, how do we know that we are following the right path to our conclusions of His second return? Were they given clear information about the Messiah and what to look for? Was it clear enough for them to plot with foreknowledge what to look for? This is a difficult task because I already know what happened. I just have to try to place myself in the sandle of the Jew. If you have some ideas to throw at me I would appreciate it.
I do know enough to hold the Premillennial Pretribulation view. I hold this view, not because we do not deserve to go through the tribulation, but, because it is an act of unmerited favor toward His children.
Interesting post. I’ve been vacillating between historic premillenialism (just can’t see any case for a pretrib rapture) and amillenialism for years. I’m no more certain where I stand now than I was when I started vacillating!
Tony:
You have some serious fallacies in your first two points. Your third point is the only one which, logically-speaking, is sound (whether it’s valid or not is another issue that I won’t go into). Here are some problems with your first two arguments…
1. First of all, the pre-trib/pre-mill view isn’t a new doctrine. In fact, it’s known to have existed in the fourth century. Ephraem of Syria (c. 306-373) taught this view. Further, the age of a doctrine is really irrelevant. Doceticism, for example, was being taught in some very early churches. Does that make it true, since it’s an older doctrine? Of course not. In fact, the age of a doctrine has nothing to do with whether it’s legitimate or not. Truth isn’t determined by time. You’re basically insinuating that the theologians who renewed this doctrine in the 18th century were wrong because nobody had seen what they perceived prior to them. This closely resembles the genetic fallacy. This is a totally illegitimate method of reasoning.
2. This is nothing more than an appeal to emotion, really. To argue that it’s selfish is really kind of an ad hominem argument, since it brings into question the motives of those who hold to the pre-trib/pre-mill eschatological view. The implication is that anyone who holds such a view is less than sincere or objective. That might not be what you intend (in fact, I would guess that you didn’t intend that at all), but that is the implication. Further, whether it’s selfish or not has no bearing on whether or not the position is correct. This is just a blatant appeal to emotion…namely, guilt.
Just my .02
I don’t mean ill will toward you or anything. To the contrary, I’m just trying to lovingly show you that your reasoning on the first two points render those points false a priori. You know what they say…if I changed my mind and agreed with you, we’d both be wrong!
heh
I think the reason that you don’t find many dispensationalists among us young guys is that we are really concerned with the Spirit. A guy I know did his dissertation on the role (or mention) of the Holy Spirit in Southern Baptist preaching textbooks. The Spirit is hardly mentioned at all! But all of our preaching should be done by the power of the Holy Spirit. I think that the resurgence of concern for Spirit-filled preaching and the belief in the gifts of the Spirit (note that I’m not saying charis-mania here. Charismatic with a seat belt is what I’m saying) is driving much of the move away from dispensationalism. Also please note that I am not saying that in the past Southern Baptist preachers have not preached by the power of the Spirit (many of them have). I think that they were just not trained in the necessity of Spirit filled preaching. Also note that I don’t believe in a second act of grace (commonly known as the Charismatic baptism of the Holy Spirit).
Great post, and you are right on!
I think what bothers me MOST about the pre-trib pre-mill “crowd” is that there is a huge tendency to use eschatology as an evangelism method. Scaring folks into salvation through a tertiary doctrine isn’t, to me, a valid method. The primary doctrine of sinful man / Holy God / forgiveness through Christ often is obscured because 14 year old kids desperately want to escape having to have their heads cut off to avoid the mark of the beast. There’s almost NO Gospel in that. Maybe I could even take out the “almost”. I suspect there are thousands upon thousands of false conversions because of that type presentation. Probably some legitimate ones, too, but the end does not justify the means.
I like this article, Dave. I don’t know if I agree with you or disagree. But I believe we’re both still Christians and we can get along just fine.
John:
I don’t know if I really understand what you’re trying to say. Could you maybe explain how a concern with the Holy Spirit can lead someone away from a pre-trib/pre-mill view?
Love this article and comments. I have been a Premillinial Pretrib girl since childhood, and used to love to debate this (not so much with seminary students, of course).
But all the while I was secretly troubled that I could not find solid support for my view. So I gave up the debate and decided to pray to and trust in God that He will either:
1. take me out the old fashioned way or
2. beam me up (cool factor!) or
3. divinely show me that I’m about to go thru the trib and give me the strength to stand firm.
Either way, I await His coming and love the discussion.
To hold the view that somehow God’s church will go through the tribulation is a sign of a limited hold on the facts of what are clearly in the book of Revelation. The Book of Revelation is a book written on our behalf for the church to get a picture of how God is going to return his creation back to its original intention. In addition, I think that the church going through the tribulation even part of it goes against God’s plan for the church.
Most, if not all, of my pastors and seminary profs [Dallas Seminary Grads] were Dispensationalist which I think would put them in a subset of the Premil – Pretrip camp. However, I don’t consider this, or any other, eschatology to have a high degree of evidence.
I agree with Tony, that there are some questions about the rapture. The text in I Thessalonians 4 is descriping this event.
Many people take Revelation, as I do, as being some type of time sequenced description of the end times — at least from chapter 4 to the end. As far as I can see the rapture, either literally or symbolically, does not show up in Revelation.
So I just don’t know how or where the “rapture” fits in.
Of all the books I have regarding eschatology, I guess the book “Progressive Dispensationalism” by Bock and Blasing is still the one that most informs my understanding. However, I don’t have a coherent calendar going from “here to eternity” in mind.
I want to thank you for your post. I really appreciated your intent and approach. As a graduate of Union University, Mid-America and SEBTS I have certainly had my fair share of influences in the area of eschatology. At the end of the day though, I still believe that the premil, pretrib view most closely represents what I find in the teachings of scripture. I have openly and honestly tried to see it from the points of view of other systems, but cannot with integrity say that “I get it.” I don’t. Thus, i accept the fact that I am a 36 year old dinosaur.
For me the thing is eminency. That’s the dividing line. It’s not expectancy as some of my post-trib friends tout, but that Jesus could come back at any moment. I believe that Jesus said that. We’d better get ready because if there ever was an hour in which most folks don’t think Jesus is coming back it would be the hour that we are living in today.
Years ago I asked Dr. Adrian Rogers about this and he recommended (it was even in his top five book list) Ryrie’s little book on the basis of the premillennial faith. I really helped to solidify the premillennial view in my mind. Also, Geisler’s theology set has a section in which he gives the reasons why he holds to a pre-tribulation rapture view. Again, was very helpful to me.
Thanks again for your post. “Even so, come, Lord Jesus!”
Toby:
Sorry. I should have elaborated. In my experience (which is only 25 years, so please correct my youthful error if it is indeed error), dispensationalism and cessationism have gone hand in hand -though I understand that it’s not necessarily the case every time. Personally, I focus on the part where Jesus is coming back. That’s the shining star of Revelation for me. If he beams me up, puts me to sleep, or makes me suffer through the tribulation, it’s all fine with me as long as he comes back. And that’s what I want the nations to know…that Jesus is coming back.
You might embrace this label: biblicist. What will explain the disappearance of pretrib dinosaurs? The rapture. Can’t wait to see the shocked look on all those reformed boys when they are caught up too.Scofield and Larkin will laugh the hardest! Then we’ll all hug and fall at Jesus’ feet and forget about it.
John:
The question, then, would be: what is the necessary connection between dispensationalism and cessationism? Or is there one? Or are you saying that, based on personal experience, dispensationalists seem to lean toward the cessationist view (or vice-versa perhaps)? I think this would be the clarification I’m hoping to get.
Thanks for replying, by the way!
Dave Miller,
Have I told you that you have quickly become one of my favorite people in the blogosphere? If not, now you know.
For everyone else, I am the guy that wrote the post on the 144,000. Clearly, I do think it was based on exegesis, but that is okay. I have come to the conclusion that there are 2 legitimate eschatological views: Amillennialism and Historic Premillennialism. I just wrote a paper on the 70 weeks of Daniel and I found one thing for certain. If it wasn’t for those 3 verses the Dispensational view would not have a leg to stand on, at all. A lot of core dispensational doctrines are derived from those 3 verses and have little to no biblical support elsewhere.
Also, I think 2 Thessalonians is a very bad passage for Pretribs to point to. I think you have to do some language twisting to come to Pretribulationism. But Dave, I dont have a problem with you being a pre-trib guy. What I dont like is Dispensationalism… Dispensational hermeneutics are not good. We must interpret the Old Testament promises in light of the New Testament. Yet, Dispensationals turn that around.
Like I said, Historic Premillinialism whether prettrib or not, is a very legitimate possibility. But the “Great Parenthesis” is a belief that must be rejected along with many other Dispensational beliefs.
Yes, this is a tertiary issue. But it sure is fun to talk about.
Toby:
Though I think one could make the logical case for a necessary connection, I wouldn’t say that there necessarily is one. (I stopped expecting a logical connection between held beliefs the first time I met a charismatic catholic.) I’m just saying that in my personal experience, dispensationalists have largely been cessationists.
I don’t mind dispensationalism. I do take issue when people care more about their charts than the fact that Jesus is coming back. And I’m not a huge fan of cessationism, because I really love the Spirit and doing ministry in the power of the Spirit with gifts given by the Spirit (though there are a multitude of Spirit-filled cessationists who preach the gospel by the power of the Spirit that I respect, know, and love. I just think that they are inconsistent.)
Matt:
You said, “We must interpret the Old Testament promises in light of the New Testament.” Could you please provide some justification for that statement?
John:
For the record, I’m a dispensationalist…and I’m not a cessationist.
I’d argue that there’s definitely no logical or necessary connection between the two positions.
Dave,
Only a couple comments…not too lengthy…
I like your first to points…no doubt that Jack and Rexella are huge selling points…;-)
On points three and four, here is where I take an issue..
Point three you talk about literal interpretation, with the recognition of “figures of speech.” Yet, texts like Rev 13 (two beasts) are regularly interpreted as symbollic, rather than literal. While numbers (1000, 144,000, etc) are “required” to be taken as literal. In the spirit of points one and two above, c’mon…don’t people would respond well to appearance of a multiheaded beast?
On Point four I would say that the issue is not promising to give someone $100 and then giving 100 to someone else. It might be more akin to promising somone $100 and then giving $100,000 to everyone. Surely giving a greater, more complete gift than the one promised is not a failure to keep the original promise.
I enjoyed the post and will sing kumbaya with you anytime…
Toby,
The best resource I could give you is “Gospel-Centered Hermeneutics” by Graeme Goldsworthy.
If you believe in progressive revelation it only makes sense to interpret the OT with the
new revelation” of the Messiah and NT that we now have.
Matt:
Thanks for the reply. I’m not necessarily disagreeing with that statement…I’m just wondering how one comes to that statement as a necessary conclusion, or what some examples of that principle put into practice might be.
Toby,
If you have never read anything by Graeme Goldsworthy, I highly recommend everything. I dont think anyone has done as good as job as he has in discussing hermeneutics and biblical theology.
His overall thesis: We must interpret all things according to Jesus. We must interpret all of life and all of the Bible in light of the person and work of Jesus. Therefore, we must read everything from Genesis to Revelation with a “Gospel-Centered Hermeneutic.”
I was introduced to him at Southern Seminary. I don’t know of one professor of mine who didnt applaud his works on heremeneutics and biblical theology.
When it comes to Dispensationalism he would say that trying to interpret the New Testament according to the Old Testament is a mistake. Rather, we need to interpret and understand the Old Testament based off the fuller revelation of the Messiah and the New Testament.
Matt:
I’d have to say that Tom Howe has THE hermeneutics book, although it really deals more with the philosophy of hermeneutics than the practice of it. It’s called “Objectivity in Biblical Interpretation.”
I agree that the NT provides clarity on many of the promises of God from the OT, and that it sheds light on some things which, as recorded in the OT, are somewhat obscure. With that being said, however, there are some issues which remain obscure, at least to a degree. The 70 weeks of Daniel, for example, aren’t even mentioned in the NT; thus, the reader is left with the difficulty of figuring out what that 70th week is, and how it fits into the bigger picture. The Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants present the same difficulties, as they’re not elaborated upon a whole lot in the NT. With that in mind, I think we have to take those covenants into account in developing an eschatological framework, and thus, in instances such as these, the NT must be interpreted in light of the OT. In instances in which revelation provides clarity, however, I agree that we must interpret the OT in light of the NT.
Either way, I’ll bring the s’mores if you’ll bring the firewood, and I’d sing Kumbaya with you any time, my friend!
Wow, Dave! You have done a great job of bringing some new commenters to sbc IMPACT with this post.
I am definitely premillennial in my views, though somewhat up-in-the-air (being raptured?) between a progressive dispensational and a historical pre-mil view.
A couple of questions for you:
1. Do you think that animal sacrifices will be reinstated in the millennium (per Ezekiel 43:18-27)? If so, how does this square with Jesus being the once-for-all sacrifice for our sins (per Hebrews 7:26-28; 9-10)?
2. Do you think the modern nation-state of Israel is the legitimate heir of the promises made to Old Testament Israel?
3. As Christians, ought we always to support the political interests of the modern nation-state of Israel?
Also, I agree that eschatology, for many purposes, is a tertiary doctrinal matter. However, as we talked about on my recent post on Sarah Palin, the NAR, etc., a mistaken eschatology can also have serious consequences in regard to our priorities and emphases in our ministry as the Church. This is the part that most concerns me.
Great stuff Dave! I must be some kind of dinosaur, too. I agree with your views fully. Great light-hearted post with a serious vein.
Toby,
I have not seen much about a dispensational view prior to the 1800s when it became popular especially in western churches and culture. I agree that age does not necessarily disqualify, but I do wonder why those who were “closest” to the original revelation of God (i.e., 1st & 2nd Century Christians) did not come to these conclusions. This doesn’t disqualify the view, but it makes it suspect in my (very) humble opinion.
You are right about the emotional appeal. I do not mean to question anyone’s motives. Perhaps if I worded it this way: “Is your desire to be rescued from the tribulation trumping your plain reading of the text?” And I only ask the question. It is for you to answer.
Bottom line: let’s have some s’mores around a campfire. Perhaps we should sing “Pass It On” as well as “Kumbaya”. It is a fun discussion with no animosity on my part.
In response to Pastor Tony’s submission:
1) Would you apply this logic to your physical health? If so, you would have to insist on your next visit that your doctor use 18th century diagnostic procedures (medical imaging then consisted of looking down your throat, up your nose or in your ears, the only accessible orifices) and treatment (blood-letting, for example). Also, the suggestion by dispensationalists that our system in inherent in the text in Scripture (exegetical rather than isogetical) is to imply that it is NOT new at all, but as old as Scripture itself.
2) Pretribulationism is not escapism. One of the things that has damaged the reputation of this position is is chronological and geographical juxtaposition with the emergence of the USA as a world power and the ethnocentric perspective of many Americans. We have assumed somehow that God needs us to accomplish His purposes in this age and that we are in some way a favoured nation. The only favoured nation I find in Scriptures is Israel, and the Tribulation is “the time of Jacob’s trouble” in which God will do some serious weeding out of His favoured nation so that when the theocracy is launched, Israel will indeed by a righteous nation, conforming to the many OT descriptions of her which have yet to be fulfilled. For Pretribu-lationists to assume that God will simply deliver us from the hard times ahead is arrogant and naive, and such delusion is not part of the eschatology. The troubles resulting from the sinful condition of the world (Romans
are borne by all, believer and unbeliever alike. But the natural consequences of the fall are distinct from the special agenda God has to pour out His judicial wrath. My own commitment to Pretribulationism does not start in the NT at all, but in Genesis 18, where Abraham, in his intercession for Lot, makes some critical assertions about the character of God that He confirms to be true by His subsequent action. The rest of Israel’s history also demonstrates the truth of Abraham’s theology. For me, then, Pretribulation is not simply an eschatological position.
3) Though there are places in the world where people will only hear about the Rapture on the nightly news (such as many areas of western Europe, where there so few Christians that there sudden disappearance will barely be noticed) I hardly think the Rapture will be secret. It will immediately become the most chaos-producing event the world has seen since the Flood.
On a humourous note, I have a friend in Canada who is not a Pretribulationist, and he told me he is going to write a series of novels from his perspective and call it, “RIGHT BEHIND.”
Sorry about all the typos above–I’m in a hurry!
I remember Dr. Jack McGroman saying in the course on Rev. that he was a “dissatifised almillenialist”, saying something to the effect that, It answered more questions than it raised. That pretty much describes me.
Rob,
It is safe to say that it should take a lot to go agianst centuries of church history. IMHO, anyone that rejects the notion of the already/not yet kingdom of God does not do justice to a majority of the Eschatology we see in the New Testament, which is another reason why Historic Premill and Amill are the only “good” options. Dispensationalism is a system that could be seen if the New Testament didnt exist, but it is a bad case of forcing OT interpretation into New Testament revelation.
I wrote what I thought was a long, thoughtful post and it must have timed out or something because it got gobbled up when I tried to post it. So here’s the shorter less thoughtful version.
I take great exception to the term “Replacement Theology”. To me it could offend the God of the Bible who redeems unto Himslef a people who respond to Him in faith. Paul seems to go to great lengths in Galatians to show that the “People of God” are those who are justified by their faith, and those who are justified by their faith may trace their spiritual lineage back to Abraham. It seems clear from both the gospels and Galatians (and elsewhere) that salvation is based on faith in Christ, not on national/ethnic/religious identity. If Paul is correct and salvation has always been based upon faith, then nobody has “replaced” anybody in God’s redemptive plan. I believe we place far too much emphasis on the current geopolitical (secular, nearly socialist) nation-state of “Israel”.
Secondly, as Baptists, we place a great deal of importance on the church. We debate about whether it’s primary nature is “local” or “universal”. We have entire blogsites devoted to notion that unity in the body of Christ can be restored through Baptist ecclesiology. We disfellowship congregations who we believe have become spiritually disqualified from being a true “church”. We spill much ink about the church’s mission, the church’s nature, the church’s ordinances, and the church’s authority. Baptists emphasisze, dare I say “love” the church because we believe (rightly, I think) the Scripture places a great deal of emphasis and importance on the the church. And we believe that the church isn’t an institution but is a People, the People of God purchased by Christ’s blood and justified by their faith in Him. We often disagree on details, but we all understand the importance of the church. And yet, many Baptists wholeheartedly embrace system that considers the church to be a “parenthesis” in God’s eternal redemption story. That’s always struck me as ironic.
Dave,
I, too, am a pre-trib., premillinial believer. I think that it fits what the Scripture teaches the best. I know that there are some wild people out there, who try to make every event on the news fit the prophecies of Scripture, but that does not make pre-trib. pre-millinial view of no effect just because of the extreme of some.
The Great Tribulation of the Bible is a time of judgement on the Earth. Christians are not going to be condemned, nor pay the penalty for the sins of the world; we wont go thru the judgment time. We will be gone. Hallelujah! Raptured! Snatched away! Then, the world, in all of it’s rebellion, will get the judgment of God.
I would suggest people read what Dr. H. A. Ironside and Dr. J. Vernon McGee amongst a host of other good, solid, Bible theologians said about end times; rather than basing their view of pre-trib., pre-mil guys on the Jack Van Impe’s of this vien of thought.
David
Matt,
Do you know how many “good” theologians believed in a dispensational, or a close to dispensational view? How can you state that the only two “good” options are amillinial and historic premillinial? How? Man, it’s statements like these that really disturb me. The only way to see dispensational theology is if the NT did not exist???? What? Really? Do you even see how arrogant and offensive such statements are?
I’m not a pure dispensational fella. I’m more of fella that leans towards a dispensational view. But, I do recognize that this is a tertiary doctrine, and some very good, Bible scholars beleived in dispensationalism. And, there are many, many, many men who are Bible theologians who hold to the view of Dr. Adrian Rogers about the end times. Matt, are you inferring that Dr. Rogers was not a “good” Bible scholar?
David
Rob Heijermans said:
Rob, it seems to me that you don’t realize the implications of your statement here. What you are implying is that God has an ongoing progressive revelation on the interpretation of the scriptures (after all, what we know now is better than what we knew then).
If anything, the goal of modern hermeneutics is not to garner new meaning from the text, but rather to get back closer to the original meaning of the text. Your argument could easily be adopted by Mormons to justify their beliefs before Christians. They won’t because the argument is weak. It is especially weak because it weakens the understanding of the church fathers (which weakens our understanding of the canon of scripture, the deity of Christ, the Trinity, etc.) and can be used to argue that Peter didn’t understand the content of Paul’s letters (and vice versa) as well as we understand them today.
Toby, I hope you don’t mind if I jump in the fray. I hope my comments are helpful and not a waste of everyones time.I just wanted to object to your two statements against Tony.
1.) Doctrine of course must be ground in Scripture yet it has always been validated in history. The scholars of Ephraem of Syria attribute that teaching to Pseudo-Ephraem. Ephraem actually taught of a post tribulation rapture before the chiasm (we call it millennial reign). It seems odd that he would have wrote two contradictory views. Read his treatise on the resurrected bodies and it does not go at all with the works of Pseudo-Ephraem and the bodies that are left unburied. You can read Ephraem work for free over at Calvin College’s CCEL. The fact that the doctrine you hold to is found in only one quasi-patristic source should be treated at best as circumspect. We should then look to find other places in the entirity of the Church and can’t find it anywhere till the 1800s. At the very least question the historicity of the doctrine has little grounds on which for it to stand.
2.) Doctrine of course does not come primarily from history (though I do argue it is affirmed secondarily in history). We derive our doctrine from the full council of God’s word. We take less clear passages and define them by more clear passages. When we do this, where do we ever get a clear consensus of a pre-trib doctrine? Where in the long history of the people of God has the Lord ever removed his people as a whole from tribulation?
Simple answer nowhere. The righteous Jews suffered under Egyptian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Greek, and Roman tribulation. They were sometimes allowed to flee when God’s punishment came down on those nations but they weren’t removed from the Earth. The disciples were warned to flee to the hills at the destruction of the temple, and Paul and Peter both wrote to comfort suffering Christians. Church history from century one till today shows a God that is glorified in the death of those who are righteous (Hebrews 11). Death is not the worst thing that can happen to any of us.
I am not arguing that the Lord can not do what is preposed in the pre-trib view. I am stating he shows us nowhere in Scripture where he will do so or has done so. The two cases closest to proof text are Enoch which we know nearly nothing about and Elijah. Enoch was a righteous man. Why he was taken up is a mystery until we do some comparison of Genesis 4 and 5. His righteousness and purity as the 7th descendant of Adam through Seth is in contrast with the depravity of the 7th generation of the line through Cain which was Lamech. His deliverance shows that the righteous will inherit glory where the fallen inherit vanity. We can’t compare the Church to Enoch. He was declared righteous the same way we are through faith in God in Christ (Heb 11:5). Yet every saint is the same in that regard. We will all be taken up eventually, we shall not all be so blessed to miss the judgments of God when he judges the penalty of sin in this world. Lot was declared righteous too but he had to flee for his safety when God judged sin. He wasn’t exactly father or husband of the year. Even after his deliverance his faith wasn’t active in his children’s life. His faith was not passed along to his progeny. I submit we are much more like Lot as a whole than like Enoch.
Elijah on the other hand was taken up when his mission was complete for the purpose of the authentication of Elisha’s ministry. I have yet to see anyone who believes that we are close to fulfilling our mission of “thy kingdom come on Earth as it is in Heaven” or the “go and make disciples of all nations”, darn we have a tough time to “love one another.” Noah is the picture for us. He was declared righteous but still was pretty rotten. Remember his claim for fame after the flood was he grew a vineyard and got drunk. Noah had to build the ark to be saved. He went through the storm because God preserved him through it.
Thanks for letting me have my say.
Sincerely,
Will Adair
willadair on twitter
For just a second, I thought I was a lonely historical premillenialist. But thanks to Will, Andrew and Matt for saying it more eloquently than I did (or could).
Anybody got any marshmallows?
Here is an interesting question that from a verse close to the passage David Rogers points out. In Ezekiel 40:3 the prophet says he sees a man tasked with measuring out the temple. In Revelation 11:1, John is tasked with measuring the temple. Is it possible that Ezekiel was looking at John?
I don’t necessarily go with that view, but H.G. Wells really influenced me as a kid
Since I shouldn’t stray off topic this much, how’s this? David Rogers, some people believe that the sacrifices in the Ezekiel passage are memorial sacrifices of thanksgiving, but it seems to create some exegetical issues.
Brother Dave,
I do love your way of communicating and really do enjoy reading your posts! In the strata known as eschatology, I would not put you in the Dinosaur age, ….I would take your view of eschatology more in line with the printing press and the age of enlightenment and Historic Pre (HP) more of the Dino. So your more progressive that way!
My son (14) and I were discussing this the other day,…and the thing that is puzzling beyond the “snatching away” hermeneutic is the thought of our change into glorified bodies. So we talked a good while on that subject, since we will rule and reign with Christ where our purposes are aligned in a much different way while glorified.
As far as eschatology goes…. I started with the classic enlightened Pre-trib, but have slipped back to the more Dino version of HP. So like Jan G., it will matter little to me whether I’m here or there as long as I am with Christ. I think the Apostle Peter also gives us some clues into more of an HP understanding at 2 Peter 3.
Good stuff my brother,
Blessings,
Chris
Andrew, that’s not what I’m implying at all. Science is discovery–it does not invent truth, but only discovers and applies what God has created and decreed to be so. In the same way, hermeneutics involves discovery–as you say–of God’s intended meaning. Hermeneutics, I believe, is systematic discovery. What if nobody ever discussed the literary aspects of OT narrative, for instance? Would we still have the grasp on OT meaning that we can acquire today? But many of those discussions are relatively recent.
Rob
Andrew, that’s not what I’m implying at all. Science is discovery–it does not invent truth, but only discovers and applies what God has created and decreed to be so. In the same way, hermeneutics involves discovery–as you say–of God’s intended meaning. Hermeneutics, I believe, is systematic discovery. What if nobody ever discussed the literary aspects of OT narrative, for instance? Would we still have the grasp on OT meaning that we can acquire today? But many of those discussions are relatively recent.
Chris,
How do you see 2 Peter 3 as supporting an HP understanding?
Dave,
Thanks for this post. If you feel lonely just come to SE NC and you will be embraced by your pre-trib, pre-mil brothers.
I’m not one of them but I’ll take you out for a couple of coffee and we can chat about it. I use to argue your position till I was prepping a sermon on Revelation and completely abandoned that position. Go figure. From my time back at SEBTS in the early 00s the majority of staffers were pre-trib but there were post-tribers. The majority of students were pre-trib, which may have changed but I imagine they still are.
I think the pre-trib is still the majority view in the pew. Graciously from my perspective more younger students are going to the scripture and giving us all a run for a money.
As for my view. The Lamb Wins. Sin and death is defeated. No more goofy televangelist, heretics, or relics (aka wwJd or other Evangelical paraphernalia). His bride is rescued. His bride is dressed. The journey continues but no longer as sojourners in a strange land. Maranatha.
Sincerely,
Will Adair
willadair on twitter
Dave,
Thanks for this post. If you feel lonely just come to SE NC and you will be embraced by your pre-trib, pre-mil brothers.
I’m not one of them but I’ll take you out for a couple of coffee and we can chat about it. I use to argue your position till I was prepping a sermon on Revelation and completely abandoned that position. Go figure. From my time back at SEBTS in the early 00s the majority of staffers were pre-trib but there were post-tribers. The majority of students were pre-trib, which may have changed but I imagine they still are.
I think the pre-trib is still the majority view in the pew. Graciously from my perspective more younger students are going to the scripture and giving us all a run for our money.
As for my view. The Lamb Wins. Sin and death is defeated. No more goofy televangelist, heretics, or relics (aka wwJd or other Evangelical paraphernalia). His bride is rescued. His bride is dressed. The journey continues but no longer as sojourners in a strange land. Maranatha.
Sincerely,
Will Adair
willadair on twitter
Dave,
Good post.
Judging by the number of comments, and the many rabbit trails, you can see that many people still care very much about eschatology. I agree with you on the premill issue. In fact, it is the only view that is demanded by the Word of God. If you’re bored, check out a recent blog post on my site entitled “Why Premillennialism is Necessary.”
http://gracethroughfaith.org/node/180
Rob, I don’t think that was what you meant either. However, the medical practice analogy weakens the historical understandings of the Bible that we hold to. My point is that we have to be very critical of anything that comes out in hermeneutical practice that has never come out before.
I am not critiquing the dispensationalist view or the pre-trib view or anything like that. I’m just asking that we recognize with humility that the gospel is unchanging and recognize the understanding and the efforts of those who have gone on before us and who have understood the gospel better than most of us could ever hope to in this life.
I think the notion of renewed animal sacrifice is abhorrent and does great violence to the reality of Christ’s sacrifice.
I think all the promises to Israel will be fulfilled. We (Christians) are Israel.
Brother Andrew,
Busy with a few things for now…but I’ll try to give the tie in for 2 Peter a little later….
Blessings,
Chris
David,
I’m not saying he wasnt a good Bible scholar, this is a third tier issue. I am just saying that Dispensationalism is a system based off a poor approach to hermeneutics. Rogers got this issue very wrong, IMHO, I am sure some people think the same of me and my position, but I take no offense. It is dumb to become offended on such a third tier issue.
We should not interpret the New Testament based on Daniel 9: 24-27. We should interpret Daniel 9:24-27 based on the fuller knowledge we have in the New Testament.
The already/not yet Kingdom is a clear teaching in the New Testament. The only way to miss it is by trying to interpret the NT based on Daniel 9:24-27. The hermeneutics of Dispensationalism is flawed.
IMHO, any view that does not accept the already/not yet kingdom if God is not a “good” option. I understand how Dispensationals get where they do, I am just convinced that it is because of poor hermeneutics. Seriously, Dispensaionalism didnt exist in the minds of hardly anyone until the 1800′s. You would think SOMEONE in the early church would of considered it if it had any validity.
“But at least we can have some fun hurling eschatological slush-balls at each other.”
As Glenn Reynolds would write, “Heh!”
Matt,
I realize your comment is directed toward David Worley, but I am going to jump in here as well. I also realize that this conversation could perhaps be seen as a bit delicate, since we are discussing the theological views of my deceased father, and we all probably want to be careful about “stepping on toes.” But, while I have a lot of love and respect for my father and his views (and happen to agree with him on the great majority), I am fine with discussing them, and even disagreeing, from time to time, on this or that. Also, I realize it was David Worley who brought my father into the discussion, and that this conversation is not about my father, so much as it is about eschatology (in general) and dispensationalism (more specifically), and there are many more dispensationalists than my father out there, and some who do not see eye-to-eye with him on all of the fine points.
Having said all that, I (as someone “up-in-the-air” between Progressive Dispensationalism and Historical Premillennialism) very much believe in the “already but not yet” aspect of eschatology. I believe my father would have said that he did as well. I think he would also say that he did not base his entire interpretation on Daniel 9:24-27.
So, in order to really discuss this issue objectively, we are going to have to define our terms a little more specifically. Dispensational ≠ dispensational ≠ dispensational. And “already, but not yet” ≠ “already, but not yet” ≠ “already, but not yet.” Sometimes we use the same terminology, but mean slightly different things, which end up becoming more significant things, in the midst of a discussion like this.
I’m over and out, guys–I just jumped in here for a short visit at somebody’s recommendation because I’m interested in this subject. I could say a lot more and would love to continue the discussion, but I have more important things in my life now, like my wife’s biopsy today, the sale of my house and a serious administrative crisis on the mission field. I’m not even a Southern Baptist…
Matt Svoboda – after that hatchet job you did on the Yankees, I had to do something to get you back.
Take that!!
And my golf outing turned into a marathon. I was horrible.
The discussion looked like it carried on pretty well without me. I may try to wander back through and give some rebuttal or response on some of it anyway.
I still have one question for you amils and post-tribs out there. WHERE ARE YOUR CHARTS? YOUR GRAPHS? REXELLA?
David Rogers, you asked three questions above. I’ll give them a whirl.
1. Do you think that animal sacrifices will be reinstated in the millennium (per Ezekiel 43:18-27)? If so, how does this square with Jesus being the once-for-all sacrifice for our sins (per Hebrews 7:26-28; 9-10)?
I would say this is one of the thorniest problems we pretribbers face. One prof I had suggested that the animal sacrifices in the temple will be like communion today – a commemorative act. Frankly, I don’t know the answer to that one, and it is one of the “pain-in-the-neck” issues for my view.
2. Do you think the modern nation-state of Israel is the legitimate heir of the promises made to Old Testament Israel?
I think that the re-founding of Israel is significant and important – the regathering of the Jewish people into their promised homeland. But until the events of the end-times begin to unfold, I do not believe they are the renewed people of God. My interp of Romans 11 has Israel being set aside while the “full number” of the Gentiles come in. Then (after the Rapture) the nation will be restored. They are a “pre-legitimate heir” if I can coin a term.
3. As Christians, ought we always to support the political interests of the modern nation-state of Israel?
In short, no. I’m sympathetic to Israel. But I do not believe it is good to be blindly supportive of Israeli politics.
You ask the toughest questions!
John T. Meche,
while dispensationalists are often cessationists, being cessationist is not a requirement of dispensationalism, especially not the progressive variety of dispensationalism.
I guess I just don’t see the connection. I am a continuationist (believe in the continuation of Spirit’s power) and also a moderate dispensationalist.
there may be aspects of dispensationalism that lend toward cessationism, but to reject dispensationalism because of spiritual gifts is unnecessary.
Pastor Tony, I can sing Kumbaya, but will have to drop out when they start singing Pass It On. Gives me flu-like symptoms – reaction from my young group days.
Scott, I appreciated your article.
One more word to all, hoping some will come back to read this. I think it is great to study this subject and have enjoyed the discussion.
There have been several recommendations of books, which I’m sure are all helpful. But if you want to understand dispensationalism, read dispensational authors, not what opponents of dispensationalism say about it. The same is true of preterism or amilliennialism or whatever view you take.
You will never get a really accurate review of an eschatological position from its opponents. Read the proponents of a view, then read those who oppose it. I’ve read things on other blogs and in books that describe what dispensationalists say, and I think – that’s not what we say! I’m sure we all feel that way at times, regardless of our positions.
Read the propopents of the position to understand it, not just the opponents.
Peace, out!
David Rogers,
Curious, what is your view of the sacrifices described in Ezekiel? I’ve not really studied it that much.
Someone mentioned something about interpreting the OT in light of the NT. Then someone else mentioned something about interpreting the NT in light of the OT. I believe in the principle that we should use scripture to interpret scripture. A lot of times we have to go both ways when interpreting the Bible. If we don’t (and even when we do), we often end up slipping our own preconcieved ideas in there. I think it is important to look at things like Christ’s sacrifice in light of the OT sacrificial system and the OT sacrificial system in light of Christ’s sacrifice. The message of the Bible doesn’t start over at Matthew 1:1.
One other thing. Now that we don’t have cable, I really miss Jack Van Impe and Rexella. Thanks for bringing it up.
You lost me at “premillennial, pretribulationalists”
Alright Dave, you got me back!!! But I will never stop fighting!
Matt, FYI – Yankees 16, steroid-ridden Boston 7 – bottom of the 7th inning. Thought you might want to know, since you love baseball so much!
Andrew,
I don’t really know. That’s why I asked Dave.
It is significant to me that Ezekiel specifically calls the sacrifices offered “sin offerings” on three different occasions. I guess the “memorial offerings of thanksgiving” option is technically possible, but it seems like a bit of a stretch to me that these would be referred to as “sin offerings.”
Also, I haven’t really studied this all that in depth either, but I am thinking that a pre-mill, pre-trib view of eschatology may not necessarily hinge on a literal fulfillment of Ezekiel’s vision of the temple, and the corresponding priesthood and sacrifices in the millennium. I know that many dispensationalists do include this as part of their interpretation, though.
Dave,
You are dead on. Preach on dinosaur and bring those bones back to life.
To pick nits:
Eschatology is not a tertiary issue. Particular millennial views may well be a tertiary issue. Particular tribulational views may well be a tertiary issue. But what of someone who would deny that Jesus is returning at all? Would deny that we will be resurrected bodily? Do those questions belong in the category “eschatology”? Yes. Are they tertiary? Not by a long shot.
I doubt that anyone here disagrees with me. I just wanted to point it out, because this business of placing things into the category of “tertiary” is something that ought to be done slowly, not quickly; cautiously, not recklessly. You didn’t do that, Dave, although the imprecision of the wording did. Somebody will read it and actually conclude that eschatology (all of it) is indeed tertiary.
Ahhh….now….I feel suitably curmudgeonly.
Dear Mr. Curmudgeon,
I agree with you Notice my reference above to the extreme preterists, whose doctrines strike me as flirting with heresy.
I consider the second coming of Christ in victory and glory to judge the world a fundamental, primary doctrine. The millennial details are what I consider to be tertiary.
I still maintain that eschatology is important (especially if one agrees with me). That’s why I harrass my associate about being “pan-millennialist” (it’ll all pan out in the end). I think that’s the easy way out. Study hard and come to try to understand what the bible says, while being gracious toward those who disagree.
By the way, I’m not sure you can be inducted into our Society of Curmudgeonly Baptists until you reach the minimum age of 50. You have to be eligible for, but refuse membership in AARP, as I have.
Dave,
You are not the only pretribber left, but I can understand how you would feel that way.
I don’t meet many younger Southern Baptists (if that’s what you particularly had in view) that are of that persuasion. It is a view that seems to have fallen out of favor compared to a generation or two ago. Dispensationalism has never lacked for people who despise, misunderstand and ridicule it, (even dropping the “H-bomb” in reference to it) but its detractors seem to have picked up steam in recent years with the revival of Reformed theology (TULIP is not incompatible with dispensationalism BTW) as well as the antics of some who wave the dispensational flag but at times appear to really resemble a peculiar type of American folk religion, especially when their views and practices as a whole are considered.
I have some more thoughts on this, but since this thread is almost a week old, I think I may post them on my blog, which I’m considering reviving.
Chris, you raised an interesting point. Many people assume that dispensationalism and Calvinism are exclusive. In fact, many of the early dispensationalists were Calvinists. Donald Grey Barnhouse et al.
[...] From an Eschatalogical Dinosaur: Am I the Last Pretribulationalist Left? [...]
Dave,
Your mention of the Presbyterian Dr. Barnhouse also illustrates that dispensationalism isn’t necessarily baptistic either, although with dispensationalism’s relatively greater emphasis on discontinuity between the testaments (compared to covenant theology) it would seem that it would naturally lead toward baptistic views. It doesn’t take long to discuss baptism with many Reformed paedobaptists before the dispy card is thrown out i.e. that Baptists are basically dispensational whether they admit it or not.
With the exceptions of J.M. Pendleton (or was it Graves?) A.J. Gordon and A.C. Dixon, most of those who are typically credited with being early popularizers of dispensationalism in the USA were Presbyterian or Congregationalist (Chafer, Scofield, the nearly forgotten James H. Brookes, D.L. Moody, R.A. Torrey) along with some Episcopalians (J.M. Gray, W.H. Griffith Thomas) and at least one notable Methodist (W.E. Blackstone.) B.H. Carroll was strongly postmillenial, and I understand many of the SBC “founders” were as well. Spurgeon was a covenant premil and evidently a posttribulationist, but his views about the restoration of Israel are much more “dispensational” than the historic premils today who are often heavily influenced by George Eldon Ladd, who is very close to many contemporary amils except on the interpretation of Rev. 20.
Today however I would imagine it is much more rare to find a Presbyterian dispensationalist (especially in conservative denominations,) particularly an elder compared to the middle of the last century when there were still quite a few of them. I understand that many independent Bible churches were started by those who came out of liberalizing and anti-dispensationalist paedobaptist churches.
Chris, you have done your homework on this. Let me know when you write more on this subject. I would love to read it.
Dave,
I think I have almost dumped the sum total of my knowledge on the subject in this thread!
Seriously, some of the above comments (several of which are typical objections) have me considering responses or clarifications on several fronts, but I need to do some more homework beforehand (assuming I do eventually respond.) I’ve learned the hard way not to go off half cocked and dogmatically defend a position before I’ve thoroughly thought it through. One thing I’m sure about however is that dispensationalism should not be dismissed due to the antics of some who are identified with that view.
At this point I’m not ready to wave the pretrib dispy flag, but I have been reconsidering the issue lately. I have however moved from amil to premil over the past year or two. I see that SBTS Prof. Dr. Thomas Schreiner recently made that move (although not to dispensationalism) in the midst of preaching through Revelation! Since Dr. Schreiner has been heavily influenced by the late Dr. Ladd, this isn’t that surprising, although I don’t recall him mentioning Ladd in his sermon on Rev. 20. I also seem to recall him stating that he has at times been uncertain on the issue or has changed his view from time to time. I’m sure a lot of us can identify with that.
Did you get Masters Seminary Prof. Dr. Michael Vlach’s little book on Dispensationalism that I reviewed on my blog a few months ago? He has recently posted several articles at his site as well: http://www.theologicalstudies.org/ I don’t know if Dr. Vlach is or has ever been a Southern Baptist, but his doctoral work on supersessionism (aka replacement theology) was done at SEBTS.
The late S. Lewis Johnson (former prof. at Dallas Seminary and TEDS) has become a big influence. Apparently he has greatly influenced John MacArthur along with many others. This site has many of his sermons, complete with transcripts: http://www.sljinstitute.net/ His messages are quite worthwhile regardless of one’s eschatological views.
I studied under Dr. Johnson at Dallas. I have read most of Vlach’s stuff (very well written) but I have not gotten the book yet.
Regardless of your current view(s) I highly recommend this book for study. Written by a former dispensationlist, it is 100% Bible based in his exegesis.
The book is called, “A Case for Amillennialism: Understanding the End Times”
http://www.amazon.com/Case-Amillennialism-Understanding-End-Times/dp/080106435X
There are a lot of misconceptions among modern dispensationalists, and they seem to forget that their view is the “new” view, not the historic one. Growing up as a pre-mil pre-trib dispensationalist myself, this book was VERY good and makes a lot of the confusion about the end times clear, as the Bible should be when we study eschatology. For example, do you ever wonder (in regards to the pre-trib view) how resurrected bodies and un-resurrected bodies can be on the earth at the same time? Why do we return to OT types and shadows in the pre-trib model? Does Jesus actually come 1.5 more times, or just 1 more time?
Check it out. As Iron sharpens Iron. Be a like a Berean.
Dave, I like your attitude towards your fellow pastors at your church concerning this issue. I have the same view with members in our church. Let’s hope that the SBC never changes the BFM to include a stance on the timing of the rapture.
see the statement of Assembly of God and General Association of Regular Baptist
http://alwaysreformingtoscripture.blogspot.com/2007/05/weigh-evidence.html
As an outsider to the SBC my views on the subject can be taken with a grain of salt. But I too think that given the nature of SBC cooperation that it would be a mistake for the SBC to include a stance on the timing of the rapture, although contra Mark Dever I do not think that it would be sinful for a church to do so. (That’s another topic for another thread, but I believe that Dever may have been speaking with the assumption that members have to subscribe to the church’s statement of faith. My understanding is that members at Capitol Hill B.C. subscribe to the New Hampshire Confession. If so his comments may have been misunderstood since most churches, at least in my experience, do not have confessional membership.)
While the majority view among the leaders of the Conservative Resurgence was pretribulationism, (indeed without dispys at that time, the SBC would likely resemble the UMC or PCUSA today) I think it may be fair to say that the fears that the 2000 BF&M would mandate pretribulationism or even premillennialism seem somewhat ridiculous or perhaps quaint in retrospect given what seems to be a rising tide of non or anti-dispensationalism today. If it wasn’t out of the realm of possibility then it seems highly unlikely today.
Although my knowledge is by no means exhaustive, if the blogosphere coupled with my personal contacts are at all representative, dispensationalists among young Southern Baptist leaders (particularly seminary trained ones) appear to be few and far between–hence Dave’s reference to feeling like a dinosaur in the title here. Whatever the motivation for it, the exclusion of a dispensational representative from an upcoming Desiring God conversation on eschatology is indicative of the mentality of many in the younger Reformed camp (and some not so young)–no dispensationalists need apply. They do have postmil, amil and historic premil views represented.
Perhaps those who have spent a lot of time around Southern Baptist (and perhaps other) seminaries in recent years (particularly within the last decade) can give us a guesstimate on what percentage of M.Div. students enter as dispensationalists and what percentage graduate with that view.
Too often in these discussions, opposing views are badly misrepresented, whether it is pretribulationists arguing that all other views are liberal or those with other views charging dispensationalists with heresy. Dave Miller’s advice above is very wise–read primary sources to better understand the various views, and don’t simply rely on hatchet jobs performed by those who anathematize other views. If you want to know what pretribulationists teach, read Ryrie, McClain, Saucy, MacArthur, etc. For amil, read Venema, Hoekema, Poythress, Riddlebarger, etc. For theonomic postmillennialism, read Bahnsen and Rushdoony. For partial preterism read Sproul and DeMar.
Also, every pretribber doesn’t agree with every jot and tittle of the Scofield Reference Bible. Progressive Dispensationalists aren’t the only ones who have attempted to make some modifications to their eschatological viewpoint. Although it appears to be seldom admitted, there have been some significant shifts among some amils in recent years as well, as Dr. Russell Moore notes in “The Kingdom of Christ.” Also, as I noted in an earlier comment, the historic premillennialism of George Ladd has some significant differences with the older historic (or covenantal) premils like Spurgeon, Ryle and Bonar. Yet pretribulationists are alternately charged with being Scofield clones or are dismissed because modifications and clarifications have been made to dispensationalism since Scofield, even though all of the other views (including postmil) have also seen attempts to varying degrees at further development, revision or modification in recent years.
The charge that dispensationalism is new and therefore to be rejected is often repeated. Ironically some today evidently fail to recognize that their own views, when taken in their totality, often represent a position that is of more recent vintage than dispensationalism. I’m thinking particularly of the inaugurated eschatology already/not yet emphasis, which is largely a 20th century phenomenon that draws from Vos, Ladd (especially) and other sources. If Ladd’s is the only legitimate view, (as was apparently argued above) then there are a lot of other figures in church history that flunk that test as well, including most amils prior to Hoekema, most premils prior to Ladd as well as postmillennialism, which was the predominant view prior to the 20th Century.
The charge of novelty can obviously also be brought against continuationism, particularly with regard to tongues or what has been termed a private prayer language in recent SBC controversies.
Another example is New Covenant Theology in its various manifestations, which is so recent that it arguably does not have a definitive expression or definition beyond being both non-covenantal and non-dispensational. If you are baptistic, non-dispensational and yet do not hold to covenant theology complete with Sabbatarianism as taught in the 1689 London Baptist Confession, New Hampshire Confession and the 1925 and 1963 versions of the Baptist Faith and Message, you hold to a view that is quite recent, although I realize that exceptions here and there could be named through the years. (As for covenant theology, given the 2000+ years of church history, it is a post-reformation development that does not predate dispensationalism by very much.)
Of course, pointing out that a strong case can be made that the above views can be demonstrated to be more novel than dispensationalism proves little if anything with regard to whether or not they are biblical. The point is that it is folly to simply note that a view appears to be novel and just dismiss it out of hand the way that so many attempt to do with dispensationalism. Likewise, it is hardly responsible to simply point to someone on the lunatic fringe, however popular they may be, and thereby dismiss the camp with which they are identified. Recently I was taken aback when a young scholar posted on his blog that he abandoned dispensationalism after seeing an episode of Van Impe’s show. If that’s reason enough to bail, then should amils abandon their view because of Harold Camping’s rantings? Should continuationists abandon their view when confronted with Todd Bentley, Benny Hinn, the Word of Faith prosperity gospel and “Holy Laughter?” Should non-dispensationalists abandon their identification of Israel with the church because it has often served as the justification for anti-Semitism?
Our church does include a premill/pretrib statement of faith. While not demanding every detail be agreed to–there is an expectation of general agreement. It reads: ” 9. SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
We believe in the rapture of the saved to meet Him in the air (I Thess. 4:13-18), and in the personal, visible, imminent, and glorious return of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (Acts 1:11; Rev. 19:11-16).
I think it important, in particular, that pastors and teachers be of the same eschatological persuasion to avoid confusion in the flock.
Dave, I don’t think you are the last Pretribulationalist left. I think that if you were to take a poll of SBC pastors the Pre-trib view would be the majority.
Have no fear, the pre-trib is is alive and well. I just ran across this conference brought to you by those who felt the need to combat Calvinism, The ACTS 1:11 Conference. From their website:
“What Is The Rapture?”
“Will There Be Peace On Earth?”
“Will the Church Go Through the Tribulation?”
“Is the Anti-Christ Alive Today?”
“Are Millennial Views a Matter of Fellowship?”
http://www.jerryvines.com/pages/the-acts-111-conference/
I have no problem with those who hold to the Pre-trib view, but it will be interesting to see the attitude of how the pre-trib view is presented. I hope it nothing like the John 3:16 Conference…
If we are going to have conferences like this, why not have a good debate where both sides are presented and then cross examination follows?
[...] 26, 2009 by Christian Note: The following is an edit of a comment I left on SBC Impact, and to some degree it still reflects that context. Lest it be buried in an old thread, I thought [...]
One thing for sure about the dispensational pre-trib premillennialism holders, they have made a ton of $$$$ selling books and material. Should this be a form of Prophecy Gospel or Prosperity Gospel?
Jose, we can all be thankful that no amillennial, preterist, reformed, midtribber, etc authors have ever made any money selling books. They are untainted by filthy lucre unlike the dispensational writers, which you lump with the prosperity gospel. I can only hope your comments toward the brothers are an attempt at humor and not some snide remark. I would suppose these authors are selling more books, however, as people would want to read about the Blessed Hope rather than despair.
Dennis,
It sure sound like you are guilty of what your are implying Jose is guilty of. Filthy Lucre? Really?
What do you mean by “people would want to read about the Blessed Hope rather than despair.” To me, it seems like you may think you understand the Amil or Post view completely, but clearly don’t. Why not be like the Bereans and search the Scriptures? Read some books explaining the other views? Too many rumors and harsh overtones have skewed what the Amil’s and Posties believe. Let’s be fair and honest. As brothers in Christ we should at least be fair enough to accurately represent each others eschatology.
The Pre (Historic Pre), Post, and A views are all respected views, but the fact remains, one is correct.
Again, no harm and being like the Bereans.
Alas, Uncle Jack Van Impe cut me out of the will. Being a Berean is highly recommended. Been searching the Scriptures for 36 years and plan to continue until I die.
Filthy Lucre? You’ve got to love the KJV. If it weren’t for that ancient translation, we wouldn’t even have colorful language like that, would we?
This comment stream is seven months old and was meant mostly lightheartedly even back then.
Here’s my view – when the Rapture takes place, we’ll all be pre-trib, right?
Well, if it was good enough for C.I. Scofield it’s good enough for me! Sorry if I came across as thin-skinned. Not glorified yet.
No worries Dennis!
Hey Dave,
Before Darby, Scofield, Chafer & Ryrie came along what was the common eschatology of the church? Because Dispensational Premillennial Pre-tribulation theology did not exist within church teaching before Darby.
My point is simply this; do we just ignore the eschatology of the early reformers / early church teachers simply because Darby “found” something new in scripture in the 1830′s in regards to the second coming? Joseph Smith “found” something new as well….actually around the same time as Darby…but I digress…Darby was nowhere near as bad as Smith, but you get my point.
This was a huge red flag for me before I finally left the dispensational movement. I could no longer support twisting scripture to fit my presuppositions, especially since it was such a “new” teaching within the church.
When honestly looking at Christs words on the age to come, and the last judgments, I see no gap.
I believe Christ’s SECOND coming could happen at any moment, and on this last day, the good and the evil will be judged, and then begins the new heavens and earth. Cant get any simpler than that?
“Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.” – John 5:28-29
“But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.” – 2 Peter 3:10
No gaps here, unless you add them.
“And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God” – Galatians 6:16
Christ & his Church are the true Israel! Thus this verse makes even more sense,
“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,” – Hebrews 12:22
Believers are a part of the New Jerusalem now! Amen! How sad is it that some are still looking for Jesus to be a geopolitical King like the Jews thought. Christ’s Kingdom is not of this world, correct?
These are just a few of the issues Dispensationalism faces in light of a literal reading of scripture.
Again, I highly recommend this book written by a former Dispensationalist,
“A Case for Amillennialism: Understanding the End Times”
http://www.amazon.com/Case-Amillennialism-Understanding-End-Times/dp/080106435X
The argument from history is a rather interesting path to tread, especially for the Baptist, unless you identify with some variant of Baptist successionism, which most younger Baptists who dismiss dispensationalism find at least as distasteful as dispyism.
If something is “new” then it certainly ought to be tested, but it shouldn’t simply be dismissed out of hand, especially with no Biblical argument whatsoever. Not a few former Protestants have gone “home” to Rome because sola fide and sola scriptura are “new.” Of course a number of other issues could be named as well.
Most tellingly, it seems to me that given the reaction to the Lord Jesus Christ that we see in the Gospels, his teaching on many issues appeared to be rather novel as well, at least compared to the predominant views of 2nd Temple Judaism. We see this even in the disciples reactions at times.
Here is a post I wrote on this a while back:
http://onepilgrimsprogress.wordpress.com/2009/09/26/dismissing-dispensationalism-for-the-wrong-reasons/
I am familiar with Dr. Riddlebarger’s work and met him at a amil prophecy conference at a PCA church near me a few years ago. Eventually his arguments and similar ones only served to push me into the premil camp after having been amil for several years.
My views on the timing of the rapture are quite uncertain at this point, so without further study, I really don’t identify as a dispensationalist, except perhaps to the extent that I don’t subscribe to supersessionism.
It is clear from the NT that the gap between Christ’s first and second comings were not understood either. Indeed, it is not readily apparent from the OT. It was thought that the Messiah would appear and then proceed to set up his kingdom.
After the resurrection and prior to the ascension, the disciples asked if Christ was then going to restore the kingdom to Israel. His response was that it wasn’t for them to know the time in which the restoration would take place, not that they were wrong in expecting it.
I’m not sold on the pretrib rapture, but for the above reason, in my opinion the objection that there cannot in any sense be more than one return of Christ is not persuasive.
What on earth resurrected this thing from the dead?
The character of God and authority of Scripture are the critical issue to me. If I cannot trust God to keep His covenant with Abraham and David, then I can’t trust Him to keep His covenant with me. If I have to “spiritualize” texts throughout the Bible to make Israel into the church and the millennium some kind of symbolism, then I can allegorize at will–and twist texts to mean whatever. Now, I am not accusing those who are of a different persuasion as denying God’s faithfulness to His promises and following faulty hermeneutics. Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind. I’ve heard all the arguments for preterism, postmillennialism, amillennialism, and variations thereof. I understand the positions. As for me, I don’t buy them. Because I believe Israel is always Israel–and not the church; because I believe in a literal reign of Christ on earth (which the OT prophets proclaim and describe repeatedly); because Paul taught that the church was a mystery hidden in the heart of God unknown until apostolic times–and for many, many other reasons, I am quite comfortable with dispensationalism. So–enough–I’m not looking for a prolonged debate. I didn’t even intend to jump back into this, until someone accused dispensationalists of being in it for the money and equated it with the prosperity heresy. Them’s fighting words!
So, I’m done. Time for bed and dreams of the coming Kingdom in my head.
Irrespective of our eschatalogical background, surely all of us can agree on one thing, “Maranatha” our Lord is coming–and won’t it be great!
Dave, as Dr. Frankenstein so maniacally said, “It’s alive! Alive!”
Actually, Dennis, to me that is one of the most important issues. God made covenants with Israel and he says in Romans 11 that his gifts and call are irrevocable.
I think Romans 11 is devastating to replacement theology of whatever form.
Dave,
I’m sure it came up in a search engine. I wouldn’t have known about this resurrection except that I was subscribed to the comments via email. This is the kind of topic that is always liable to be revived, especially with pretribulationism not being in vogue today.
I agree with your comments about the KJV. The English language was certainly more colorful then.
Well, Hello Cris. Didn’t know you were on this site.
I do not want to simply prolong the debate either, but there seems to be some misconceptions on your end that I have heard from many of my dispy brothers. To be fair, I would like to clear these up for the sake of others who may read this blog in the future.
First the Amill view is NOT replacement theology, never has been. If anything, it is expansion theology. Anyone can be a part of the Kingdom, Jew or Gentile. The NT was very clear that there was no more distinction between Jews and Gentiles. The Church now being the Israel of God, see Galatians 6:16 again. We can’t just ignore it as Darby did.
Why would God (in the dispensational understanding of the future age) redivde what he has brought together for good (Jews and Gentiles)? What should we do with this verse, “For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility” – Ephesians 2:14. Christ removed the dividing wall! Why would it go back up in your understanding of the Millennium? I do not see this in scripture.
I also am curious how and why Animal Sacrifices have to start up again within the dispensational understanding of the future age? To me, this is another red flag that the Dispensational hermeneutic is flawed because Christ was the Final sacrifice, was he not?
Second, God did Keep his covenant With Abraham and David, and it was fulfilled in Christ and the Church, thus the NEW covenant was able to come in. “And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.” – Galatians 3:29
How could one spiritualize these texts when it says these things plainly? “And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.” – Galatians 6:16
Or this verse speaking to the Hebrews telling them that they were ALREADY and presently, a part of the New Jerusalem,
“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,” -Hebrews 12:22
As for the 1,000 years, it is mentioned in the most symbolic book of the bible. To say Revelation is not symbolic is just dishonest. A study of Hebraic literature shows quickly that the number 1,000 almost always refers to a completeness or perfect amount of time. It is also important to know that Revelation was written in a Hebraic style not a Greek style. For example, Does God only own the cattle on a 1,000 hills, or does he own more than that? “For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills.” – Psalm 50:10
True, the OT prophets did proclaim and describe a reign of Christ, but they also thought he would be a geopolitical King as well, they were looking for something else because of their error of incorrectly understanding the prophecies, and thus, as we all know, missed the messiah when he came. Why should me make the same mistake they with the prophecies? The NT authors quoted OT passage after OT passage to show that Christ fulfilled them ALL, and to show that the the covenant promises made to Abraham and David were fulfilled.
The NT only mentions Israel 73 times, and it is always in reference to them not believing! Why so little mention in the NT vs the OT? Because the promises to Israel were fulfilled in Christ’s and His Church, which was the plan from the very beginning! Again, it is expansion not replacement.
“For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical.” – Romans 2:28
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” – Galatians 3:28
So, to be clear, I am Amill, and I believe in a 1,000 year millennium that is a present reality as Christ’s Kingdom is not of this world. I know this because Christ is King NOW, reigning in all power NOW (millennial reign) with all authority NOW. The “1,000″ years represents a complete or perfect amount of time until He decides to return again to judge the wicked and the righteous on the last day, and to usher in the new heavens and earth.
On a more superficial note, keep in mind that only ONE place in all of the bible mentions the 1,000 years, and it just so happens to be mentioned in a highly symbolic vision. A literal 1,000 year reign is a pretty big deal, don’t you think Jesus would have mentioned it? He was clear on all the other big things to take place, why be elusive about a literal 1,000 year reign?
Hopefully I painted a good picture of the Amill view. As they say, A picture is worth a thousand words…..but not literally.
Aaron,
There are answers to every one of your questions. My question is, are you really curious and do you want answers? If so I’d be happy to share them. Each issue you have raised has been dealt with by thoughtful premillennialists many times over. There is not one verse you have quoted that I don’t believe and that I need to spiritualize to correctly interpret. So–if you are seeking answers I will take the precious commodity called time and invest in sharing them. Just let me know. Otherwise, we’ll agree to disagree and see each other in the air–in some sequence at some point!
Hey Dennis,
No need to respond, I was asking the questions in a more rhetorical sense for anyone who may stumble upon this blog in the future. These are just questions I had to answer myself.
I am also fully aware that dispensationalists (not all Premill guys are dispensational) have an answer for each of these questions. I have just found it always involves inserting assumptions not found in scripture to get the answer.
For example, Tim Lahaye mistakes the second coming verses for the pre-trib rapture, and when confronted about the fact that it is described as loud and visible for all to see, he said it was like a “cosmic dog whistle” only for the saved. While Tim does have an answer, it is just not in scripture. To be fair, I was guilty of this type of dishonest mangling of scripture in the past as well, and I am just asking people to step back, and take a “clean” look, much like the reformers did when getting out from under the incorrect teachings of the Catholic church.
Is it so far fetched to think that maybe Darby introduced a flawed eschatology? I don think so. We can only benefit from looking at the whole of church history to see what was taught before Darby. Church doctrine didn’t start in the 1830′s with Darby. To think Darby had it right, and all others before him had it wrong is a brave stance to take.
Anyhow, thanks for the discussion!
Your brother In Christ, Aaron
Guys I am new at this and really don’t have the time. However, this topic has peaked my interest and I feel I can add a thing or two, even if I am “just a laymen” My claim to fame is …and a friend of Dave’s. For me this will be a series of blogs and not just a single entry. While I will defend the historical pre-mill position and will attempt to refute the pre-mill position, in my heart of hearts I am an a-mill want-a-be. How is that for being a multi-flavored arm chair theologian. I hope that doesn’t disqualify me from having a voice. More later.
Aaron:
Brother, that was the ultimate hermeneutic. What is a 1000 years among friends anway?
Dave, you said, “Here’s my view – when the Rapture takes place, we’ll all be pre-trib, right?” Sure Dave! Who wouldn’t want it to be pretrib.? If it is, on the way up I tell you you were right—praise the Lord. I just do not see the evidence for the pretrib rapture. If the tribulation starts in our life time and we are all still here, you will be posttrib, right?
Dave, why do you believe that it is pretrib?
I believe the pre-trib position is based upon a fallacious understanding of two things:
(1) The Wrath of God as related to the end times. God’s people will not be subject to His wrath, but the Trib period will contain worldwide persecution of the “elect.” Most Westerners seem to equate persecution with God’s wrath, and don’t believe the church would be subject to it. However, Scripture is clear that God will protect those who are His from the bowls of wrath being poured out.
(2) The Elect of Rev. Though The Revelation does not speak directly of the church, the elect are clearly present, as are those who are followers of Christ. John seems to make clear earlier that all are not Jews who have been circumcised, real Jews are those who have received Christ, so I doubt he is speaking of the “elect” as only Jews.
Now there are several times in Scripture when the return of Christ is placed explicitly at the close of the Tribulation: (1) Matt. 24. (2) 2 Thess 2. (3) Rev 20. Then add to that the “Marriage Feast of the Lamb” takes place at the close of the Tribulation and that Noah was not removed from the world during the time of God’s purifying wrath, but rather protected in the world, and that the Children of Israel were not removed from Egypt as the plagues were poured out on them and you find substantial ground to offer an effective argument for a Post-trib return.
Now, I don’t deny there are arguments for other positions, but there are a plethora of arguments for the Post-trib position.
Kendall,
I’m trying my best to take a “blogging break” but keep getting drawn back into my post on inerrancy, and then, suddenly, this one popped back up a few days ago.
Mostly, this was a lighthearted post and my comment was a joke. But if you would look up to the original post, most of my main reasons for being pre-trib are in the original post.
Issues related to the purposes of God in Israel and the Church.
Issues related to the nature of the tribulation (wrath vs persecution and the focus on Israel).
There are a number of verses which I believe are best interpreted pre-trib, though I freely admit there are a few that are more of a challenge.
The basic reasons are above.
I was shocked when this post from last August sprung to life again. Here’s how I would answer your question. When I studied the issue (in pretty good depth and detail), I believe the pre-trib view fits all the pieces together better than the post-trib view.
I think I’m going to try to find out who Jose is – the guy who resurrected this comment stream (#83) after no comments since September. I will track him down and pummel him (spiritually speaking of course, and only in Christian love).
Dave, I think you mentioned before that you don’t believe that this is an issue to divide over….thankfully! I’m also glad that the BFM does not take a stand either way on the timing of the rapture.
Your first two points were funny; now to your serious reasons for being pretrib.
Your point #3) with the 144,000… I believe the same thing. Not evidence of a pretrib rapture though.
Your point #4 is still not an argument for the pretrib position. Historic Premill God is going to call many Jews to himself and Romans 11 will be fulfilled. Your statement that the church and Israel are distinct parts in God purposes, you will have to explain more. You don’t believe that Jews are saved in the future apart from believing in the Messiah do you? You also believe that there are many Gentiles saved as well–right? Are the believers in the tribulation apart of the body of Christ? How can you believe in Jesus and not be a part of the church? So, I don’t see point #4 as being convincing of a pretrib view.
Point 5, “Premillennial Pretribulationalism holds, in my view, the correct view of Revelation 4-19.” I have written an article that deals with this issue.
http://alwaysreformingtoscripture.blogspot.com/2007/05/believers-are-found-throughout-entire.html
Once again I would ask, Are the believers in the tribulation apart of the body of Christ?
Your point 6 I didn’t see as an argument for the pretrib position. I definitely do believe that preterism is right… and full preterism is heresy.
Point 7 and 8 are not arguments for the pretrib position…
So Dave, I am not convinced of your reasons for being pretrib bro.
Here are some of my reasons for believing that the rapture is at the second coming (end of the tribulation). http://alwaysreformingtoscripture.blogspot.com/search?q=rapture
I am glad your allow your youth pastor to be historic premillennial. I also allow for different views in our church regarding end-times. But we would not allow full preterism to be taught, nor could one be a member while holding to that view.
Blessing to you…
Dave, I think you mentioned before that you don’t believe that this is an issue to divide over….thankfully! I’m also glad that the BFM does not take a stand either way on the timing of the rapture.
Your first two points were funny; now to your serious reasons for being pretrib.
Your point #3) with the 144,000… I believe the same thing. Not evidence of a pretrib rapture though.
Your point #4 is still not an argument for the pretrib position. Historic Premill God is going to call many Jews to himself and Romans 11 will be fulfilled. Your statement that the church and Israel are distinct parts in God purposes, you will have to explain more. You don’t believe that Jews are saved in the future apart from believing in the Messiah do you? You also believe that there are many Gentiles saved as well–right? Are the believers in the tribulation apart of the body of Christ? How can you believe in Jesus and not be a part of the church? So, I don’t see point #4 as being convincing of a pretrib view.
Point 5, “Premillennial Pretribulationalism holds, in my view, the correct view of Revelation 4-19.” I have written an article that deals with this issue.
http://alwaysreformingtoscripture.blogspot.com/2007/05/believers-are-found-throughout-entire.html
Once again I would ask, Are the believers in the tribulation apart of the body of Christ?
Your point 6 I didn’t see as an argument for the pretrib position. I definitely do believe that preterism is right… and full preterism is heresy.
Point 7 and 8 are not arguments for the pretrib position…
So Dave, I am not convinced of your reasons for being pretrib bro.
Here are some of my reasons for believing that the rapture is at the second coming (end of the tribulation). http://alwaysreformingtoscripture.blogspot.com/search?q=rapture
I am glad you allow your youth pastor to be historic premillennial. I also allow for different views in our church regarding end-times. But we would not allow full preterism to be taught, nor could one be a member while holding to that view.
Blessing to you…
dave, could you delete #107?
Kendall, I’m a little confused. In comment 107 you asked me to delete comment 107?
I hope you realize that I think your comment #103 was fine and good. I’m not upset at all or offended or anything. It was a good comment.
I’m just kinda burned out right now on blogging. Wrote 3 major articles in about 10 days, and the one on inerrancy has gone to about 350+ comments. That is the only reason I did not engage your comment in more depth.
Nothing is wrong with your comment. Just my old, tired bones.
I think Eric will tell you as well that about 93% of what I say is tongue-in-cheek. Actually he might say that it is higher than that and he may very well use other words to describe it.
I’m sorry…. 107 is fine for some reason I thought i posted the same article twice….
Kendall, don’t confuse an old man.
I am not sure if this is clear, but I know it was confusing for me at first. Someone please correct me if I have this wrong.
As I understand it, the major views are as follows,
I notice many still confuse Post-Millennialism with Post-Trib (Pre-millennialism), which they are VERY different.
This chart is also very helpful,
http://kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com/eschatology-charts/millennial_views.pdf
-Aaron
For those who seem to find it difficult bridging the gap between reformed and dispensationalist camps, here’s an interesting blog and review:
http://bibchr.blogspot.com/2010/03/book-review-dispensational-covenantal.html
Aaron – what is your differentiation between historic premillennial and Pre-mil, Post-trib?
Dennis, “Reformed” theology generally demands a covenant-theology Amillennialism. However, it is not unusual for Calvinists (those who believe in the sovereignty of God in salvation but do not accept the entire “Reformed” system) to be found in just about every camp.
I guess I could have made A-Millennial number 2a instead of 3, as it used to be grouped in with Post-Millennialism in the past. Of the 3 views they are the most related in their understanding of eschatology.
The biggest difference is that Post-Millennialism teaches that the Church will usher in the millennium, a “Golden Age” (or we may be in it now as Johnathan Edwards thought). It also says that things are getting better spiritually and physically in the world, slowly being restored to its original glory.
A-Millennialism teaches this as well, that we are in the millennium now (spiritually with Christ, because his Kingdom is not of this world), and this started with Christ’s ascension (it is basically the Church age). They differ in that they teach, like Pre-Millennialism, that things are getting worse and worse in the world, while things are improving spiritually within the true church.
Both A and Post teach that AFTER the millenium, (whether literal, spirtual, present, or future), the Second Coming of Christ will be Post, not Pre this ‘millennium’. This is why they both used to be grouped under Post-Millennialism, and only recently has A-Millennialism been called by this name.
Hopefully this makes sense as well.
-Aaron.
Hey Dave,
I am not sure if there is any real huge difference other than minor tweaks on the understanding of what events lead up to the tribulation.
The PDF chart I had linked in my last post highlights it a little.
Am I a little off on how I broke the views out?
-Aaron
To All,
There is one book I would highly recommend that I have not seen on this blog. It is, The Rapture? by Dr William E Anderson. It is written from a Historic Premillennial view. Well written, well researched, easy to read and good exegesis. Every dispensational petrib premillennialist should read this book along with historical premills that need further study.
Dr. Anderson is alive, well and active in the Dallas-Ft. Worth area. There he could probably be reached for comment.