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tagged: David Rogers, Eschatology, New Apostolic Reformation, Paul Grabill, Politics, Sarah Palin, Seven MountainsSarah Palin, the New Apostolic Reformation, and the Seven Mountains
Posted by David Rogers in Bible & Theology, Church & Missions, News & Culture
I first saw this video-clip a couple of weeks ago on the blog of my friend, Paul Grabill. Paul is the Lead Pastor of State College Assembly of God in State College, Pennsylvania.
Upon watching this video-clip, some of you readers here at sbcIMPACT! will, no doubt, be tempted to view it primarily from the lens of Pentecostal/Charismatic issues. Personally, though, I think the main issues at stake here are not divided along the line of Pentecostal/Charismatic Christianity vis-à-vis Baptist/Evangelical/Non-Charismatic Christianity.
Others may be tempted to view it primarily from the lens of politics, and see it as a hard-hitting exposé on the political aspirations of Sarah Palin, and the true ideology of some of her supporters. From what I can gather, there is probably some truth to this categorization of the motives of the video-clip’s producers. But that is not the key point that concerns me here.
Others may be tempted to view it primarily from the lens of eschatology. And, there is definitely a stream in what is portrayed in the video-clip that aligns most naturally with a specifically postmillennial eschatology.
However, I believe there is a certain philosophy that is making headway among evangelicals of all stripes, colors, and eschatological views, that shares many of the core values expressed by the leaders of the New Apostolic Reformation shown in this video-clip.
I think it is important, as we ask ourselves, “What is God’s purpose for us, as His followers here on earth?” that we keep in mind the errors of Constantinian Christendom that have plagued us down through the centuries. Are we, as Jesus’ followers, primarily to be about conquering the ground represented by the Seven Mountains mentioned in the video-clip, or rather about rescuing souls from out of this world, and transferring them into the Kingdom of the Son, a Kingdom which, although prefigured and modeled in the present-day ministry of the Church, will never be established in its fullness until the day that Jesus Himself comes from Heaven to set up His earthly throne among us.
As I see it, there are various takes out there on this same theme. There are the purist postmillennial/dominionist/reconstructionist/theonomist views of people like Rousas John Rushdoony and Gary North. And, there is the politically activist/religious right/Moral Majority/“America as a Christian nation” coalition that encompasses a broad panoply of theological positions. There are even some who are deeply involved in social aid, helping the poor and underprivileged around the world, and environmental concerns, that make a big emphasis on cultural transformation as a key element of the Great Commission.
I am aware of the danger of going to the other extreme on this—of social and political quietism and retreat; of what H. Richard Niebuhr called the “Christ against Culture” perspective. If we are Jesus’ ambassadors in this world (2 Cor. 5:20), and are sent into this world just as the Father sent the Son (John 20:21), I believe we must touch people where they are hurting, ministering to real-world needs and concerns, not just saving their souls for an eternity in Heaven.
But, I believe it is crucial that we model our ministry, as the Church, on the ministry of Jesus in His first manifestation here on earth—the meek, humble, obedient Servant—and not on His second manifestation—as conquering, ruling, triumphant Lord. One day, when the time is good and right, Jesus Himself will come to earth, and show us the way, and we shall reign together with Him forever and ever (Rev. 22:1-6)—but not beforehand.
What do you think?
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David,
Brother, this sounds like what a Charismatic/Pentecostal types would do. I mean, they are calling people Apostles. They are talking about getting extra revelation from God. God told them about the 7 mountains, God spoke to them about…,and there is women preaching, change the culture and society, prosperity Gospel, etc.
I dont think that we, as Christians, should seek to take back the Earth. We are told to fish, not clean up the fish tank. We’re told to fish, not take over the fish tank.
I’m not against Christians being involved in all sorts of areas of life, like Govt., or education, or business, etc. But, there is so much wrong with this video, and with what it says that..well…it’s hard for me to even imagine being involved in something like this.
David
David,
The New Apostolic Reformation is definitely a Charismatic/Pentecostal phenomenon, and practically all the same things that concern you about it concern me as well.
However, I think one of the main dangers of this movement transcends the lines of Charismatic/Pentecostal. There are many nowadays who would not, in a million years, be in agreement with the Charismatic/Pentecostal elements of NAR, but might still be led astray by this general philosophy of “taking the Seven Mountains.” I think you state it well, when you say, “We are told to fish, not clean up the fish tank. We’re told to fish, not take over the fish tank.”
David R.,
Agreed.
BTW, I’ve been to Bozo’s several times…well, more than several times…here lately. It’s still good. The lemon ice box pie is homemade, and it’s unbelievably good.
David
This is a fascinating video, David. I find some wisdom in it – Christians need to try to be influencial in government, arts, entertainment, education, business, banking, etc. But I think the difference is that we might talk about influence. They are talking of a takeover.
What is our NT mandate? Jesus gave us a great commission to make disciples, not to take over societal structures. The NT church never tried to gain control over Roman society and culture, at least not until Constantine.
There is some wisdom in this, but some cause for concern as well.
David, was this video put together by the Seven Mountains group? The comments at the bottom almost made me think it was meant as a warning that Sarah Palin is part of some sort of conspiracy group.
I think this is all about inventing a “better religion”. Perhaps because Christians simply haven’t, in large part, been living up to the biblical model for Christians. A happy, unashamed, follow of Jesus, unafraid to tell the reason for the hope, to anyone who’s interested.
I guess I’ve had my head in the sand. I never heard of this “Seven Mountain” stuff. I watched the clip. Sounds to me like these guys (and gals) are going to literally try to build Heaven on Earth.
I used to have a bunch of “Church Growth” books and I am pretty sure (but I could be wrong) that some of them were by C. Peter Wagner. He was hanging out in Pasadena, California in the 1980s and/or 1990s. But when I moved to Oklahoma I tossed all of those books out.
Dave Miller,
Although I have come out as “continuationist” in my views on spiritual gifts, and open to fellowship and spiritual unity with Pentecostals and Charismatics in general, the NAR and the Seven Mountains emphasis is very alarming to me. It strikes at the core of everything we, as the Church, are to be about in this world. And, as I mention in my post, it is not just the NAR, and Pentecostal/Charismatic types that are going in for this general mindset and approach to Christian ministry. I foresee a real dividing line in Christendom overall over these issues that we will need real wisdom to be able to discern correctly in the coming days.
From what I gather, the video-clip itself was put together from various snippets of NAR-type leaders, by Talk to Action (www.talk2action.org), a left-wing organization that has an agenda to discredit the religious right.
I am, by no means, in agreement with the overall agenda of Talk to Action. However, I think some of the issues they are calling attention to are indeed worrisome, and issues about which we as Bible-based Christians should be cognizant.
David Miller,
I agree with you influencing v. taking over.
Some people believe that Gallio (Acts 18) became a Christian. If this could be proven (it can’t), it would certainly be interesting to include while discussing the role of the believer in political and social upheaval.
(Gallio was later implicated in a plot to assassinate Nero along with his more famous brother, Nero’s advisor, Seneca. He was forced to drink poison).
Bob,
I agree that authentic, Spirit-filled, Christ-honoring, humble, submissive, obedient Christian discipleship will go a long way toward keeping these innovations at bay. It is sad for me to see people who are known for their strong emphasis on prayer and spiritual warfare (such as Peter Wagner and Cindy Jacobs) coming out with this stuff. May God give us an unusual combination of Christ-like winsomeness and spiritual discernment for the days ahead.
Roger,
I also have read much of Peter Wagner’s materials in years gone by. Little by little, however, he has been drifting closer and closer to out-and-out heresy. There are some real good things he has to say, especially in some of his older books, but lately the bath water seems to be drowning out the baby.
Andrew and Dave Miller,
I think I agree somewhat with the point about influencing as over against taking over. However, it seems to me it is sort of a slippery slope kind of thing. What is the point when we move past “influencing” to “taking over”? Does it make sense to have “influencing” as our goal, but then, all of the sudden, stop, when it seems we are gaining “too much influence”?
What is the difference between being “salt and light” in the world, and taking a prophetic stance, and Dominion Theology?
I think there may be people whom God calls to give influence in some of the “Seven Mountain” areas – businessmen like Truett Cathy, artists and entertainers who are Christians, and Christians who go into politics.
History has shown that these good folks face great temptations and too often give into their culture rather than influencing it.
To me, though, the job of the churhc is to make disciples, not to take control of societal structures.
One more thing. I think this might be, at its heart, just one more example of the triumphalist wing of the Charismatic movement attempting to sanctify a focus on worldly success.
Many televangelists have said that God wants us wealthy, rich. This is taking that one step farther. Now, getting rich is not only a blessing, it is part of a strategy to take the seven mountains and fund the Kingdom of God.
It is one more reason to sanctify greed.
Sorry for the negativity. I have great Charismatic friends who have blessed my life in many ways. However, I also observed their tendency to be impatient waiting for heavenly rewards and to expect those rewards to come to earth.
Dave,
I recently heard someone else (I can’t remember exactly who or where) make the same point about Christians, as individuals, being called into these arenas, but the Church (or churches) not so. I think there may be something to that, but I need to think it through theologically a bit more before I “sign on the dotted line.”
Don’t worry about the “negativity.” You are pointing out here some of the exact same concerns I have about this movement. That is a big part of my motivation in posting this.
For me, I’d rather influence the culture by winning people to Christ than to march on the White House, sign a petition, or go to a rally. That’s just me. I find that Christians and churches have tried to fight at a cultural level. I’d rather fight at an individual level.
I think we’d be more effective if every christian who went to a rally, marched, or protested instead tried to win people to Christ and to teach the truth through discipleship.
When I see something like this, I always ask myself “What’s the point? Where are they trying to go with this?” In my opinion, the idea is to establish a Christian utopia where everything is done God’s way. Of course, scripture teaches us that this won’t be the case until Christ’s return.
I really think if there were a more thorough understanding of the Kingdom of God (something I’m still working on) Christians would be less susceptible to this kind of teaching. When we have a comprehension of God’s Kingdom, we understand what are roles are now and in the future. I by no means, have it figured out, but what I do understand now helps me to see the fallacy of the Seven Mountains group.
I’ve never really liked the statement, “We want to live right so the world will see Christ in us.” Something about that doesn’t sound exactly right. It would be better stated, “We want to live right so God is glorified.” That is the only approach to any of our duties we have here on earth.
Nothing resembling God’s Kingdom is going to be established through politics or otherwise. It is an impossibility to “influence” a dead man or women to respond the way God would have them to. Therefore, the only work Jesus is interested in now is His church and He said “He” would build it. There will be no human fingerprints on what He does regardless of what men think they need to do. When a man begins to think he needs to accomplish God’s promises we get a nation that troubles the world constantly. We better be careful when we see the flesh getting involved in something that can effect the world again. Maybe, for the last time.
Holy Cow.
Joel’s Army.
Sarah Palin scares me to death.
Good grief.
I certainly liked Sarah better before I watched this video.
Personally, her influence on our country, as a politician, worries me a lot less than the influence of the people she is associated with on the church–which, in the big-picture, long-term, scheme of things, is, in my opinion, more important overall.
But, it makes me wonder if she is some kind of emissary doing the bidding of this group.
She is dangerous. Terribly dangerous. These folks would force Christian standards on an unregenerate world in the name of advancing the kingdom. They believe that Christ will only return once WE get the world in the proper shape. “WE” must form Joel’s Army and overtake the world with an intentional, forced “holiness”.
It’s identical to the Muslim preference to force all to live by Muslim law.
Mitt Romney is incredibly less dangerous. And he’s dangerous as all get out.
Sarah Palin on the Republican ticket in 2012 is the best job security Barack Obama could possibly have, except for the fact that she’s crazy enough to say whatever she needs to say to ignite the Republican party.
At this point, I genuinely believe that I would vote for Barack Obama before I would vote for Sarah Palin. That’s not a promise or a threat, that’s just how dangerous I believe she is to Christianity.
I want Satanists and Wiccans to remain free to exercise their “religion” in America. I want atheists to remain free to exercise their lack of religion. I want Christians to be free to believe as their conscience leads, not as some half crazy “prophet” from a Toronto Blessing church chooses to lead. To force a particular brand of Christianity on an unwilling population is to incite rebellion and war very quickly. These people have no idea of what they are doing in the name of religion.
I’m more sick of politics being mixed with religion than I think I have ever been. I once thought I was taking a “Godly” stand and being a good Christian because I wore a “W” button. I’m quite convinced now that I was wrong.
I guess I am less concerned about the political implications, because I don’t see politics, whatever the ideology behind them, as being the solution for the world’s problems. The solution is Jesus. And, Jesus is always going to transcend the political platform of any human party or coalition–past, present, or future.
That doesn’t mean I don’t think some political options are better than others. I most certainly do. But, my hopes are much more bound up in the ministry of the church, as the Body of Christ, “to preach good news to the poor, proclaim freedom for the prisoners, recovery of sight for the blind, release the oppressed, and to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” That is where the real action is.
And, when this ministry of the church gets confused and entangled with a push for power and riches, then we have truly lost something of consequence. In the ultimate scheme of things, the purity of the Bride of Christ is much more important than the form of government in nation-state x, y, or z, during this century or that century.
“I guess I am less concerned about the political implications, because I don’t see politics, whatever the ideology behind them, as being the solution for the world’s problems.
Since this is a highly political organization, I don’t see how we can possibly discuss their impact without considering the political implications.
The entire purpose of the Joel’s Army, neopentecostal dominionism, Rick Joyner/Bob Jones, John Hagee, Seven Mountains line of thinking is to FULFILL PROPHECY BASED ON THEIR INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE.
It’s deadly politically, but the primary implication of that is that it will shut down the ability of the church to reach non-believers. These folks have no desire to convert non-Christians, only to make the world perfect for believers. That’s very contradictory to everything I believe about Scripture. The church is to be in the world but not of the world. The church has no political place. None. We are not Israel. Israel was a pre-crucifixion type of the Christian. The manipulation of the country of Israel to satisfy John Hagee’s view of prophecy is very dangerous for the church.
Os Hillman’s site contributes the following… http://www.reclaim7mountains.com/apps/articles/default.asp?articleid=41538&columnid=4347
A selected excerpt from that article…
“(1) God’s covenant people taking dominion of the earth has been the main theme of every covenant that God has ever made with mankind. The New Covenant for the church is no different with its expectation of dominion by making disciples of all nations.
(2) The Dominion Process is two-fold. First, human beings are blessed by God. Secondly, these blessed human beings are given a mandate to take dominion of the earth for the purpose of blessing it.
(3) The first advent of Christ was for the purpose of creating a blessed seed upon the earth – the church. The second coming of Jesus will take place after this blessed seed has completed the Dominion Process upon the earth by making disciples of all nations. “
Bernard,
From what I am able to gather, our opinions on this are not very far apart at all.
What I am saying, though, is that, from a strictly political point of view, I had just as soon have people with specifically Christian values in positions of influence as those with anti-Christian values. If I am given a vote–as we are in a democratic society such as the one in which we live–I will vote for those candidates and policies that most closely align with my own worldview, which is specifically Christian. I believe I have a certain stewardship, as far as that is concerned.
But, I do not hang my hopes for the world on the political process. As a matter of fact, I am rather pessimistic (based on my understanding of Scripture) as to where the political process will lead us.
I thank God for the freedoms we are able to have in the U.S., as well as the freedoms that are available in many other countries today. I would never hope or pray for a political situation similar to that of China, for example.
Yet, from the perspective of eternity, the precious believers in China are uniquely blessed. And, from what I understand, they are not so much praying that God would change the political climate in China as they are that God would allow them to continue to faithfully represent Him, and carry out His purposes, in the midst of their particular context.
The biggest danger I see in the NAR, and other Dominionist groups and emphases, is that of getting us off-track, as the Body of Christ, and placing our heart and our priorities on things that God has not called us to in this present age.
I also agree with you about this being a major stumbling-block in our efforts to reach the lost with the gospel.
David:
Too much for me to think about right now; but maybe you should take a look at Steven Miller’s new book on Billy Graham, Nixon and the Rise of the Southern GOP.
Maybe more poignant for the SBC and what has happenned in last 25 years would be exploration of Richard Land and the way his time with Texas Governor (White, wasn’t it) shaped his journey with Karl Rove and George W. Bush.
Google up the discussion of Sidney Blumental on Robert Caro’s trilogy of LBJ in the New Republic 1991 or so.
I am convinced the 48 Senate Race between Coke Stevenson and LBJ shaped Paul Pressler that was a harbinger of things to come for SBC and USA.
Keep thinkin about it all and we’ll be in touch.
But please help me understand why Al Gore Sr. was not invited to be on platform with Graham and Nixon in Knoxville crusade, UT, 1970.
PS: I have posted a link at baptistlife.com . Some of you may want to follow the discussion there as you track here.
If the featured persons in the video were speaking Arabic, we would easily see and recoil at the sight, the language of the Taliban. This is the society they see…where their singular religious view controls all aspects of society. Minority views are not only not tolerated, they are dealt with often in a deadly way.
To a Christian, an alien in a strange land, who is in control of government or business or any other mountain should be irrelevant. We have the luxury even of contemplating these things because we were lucky enough to be born in America. Christianity is a world religion, for all people. How in the world would such baloney wash in other lands? Our preocupation with the culture makes us all eunuchs for the gospel.
Norman,
Excellent observation. I totally agree that the NAR–Seven Mountains approach, in a sense, puts us as Christians on the same level as the Muslims. Having lived 18 years in Spain, I also see a parallel to this and the role of Opus Dei in Spanish society–they intentionally seek to groom their people and place them in positions of influence throughout the major sectors of society. In a place with a small Protestant minority, such as Spain, as you well observe, the NAR–Seven Mountain rhetoric clearly undermines our witness and reputation as representatives of the pure, unadulterated gospel.
David:
I think the whole question of SBC and politics may be framed a little better by this piece of History, a June 18 address of Robert Marsh to his deacons at 2nd Ponce in Atlanta.
Marsh followed Russell Dilday to that pulpit, coming from Laurel, Mississippi where he was pastor to SBC Peace Committee member and Bush 43 Judicial nominee Charles Pickering.
Marsh’s son Charles a UVA proff will give the Buddy Shurden lectures on church state at Samford next April.
If you take it from the Marsh history and writings about politics and the SBC, your focus on Sarah Palin, while interesting, may be beside the point.
Marsh’s Brother in law, Fisher Humphrey will one of four lecturers and panelist at Baylor October 1 on the Baptist Contribution celebratig 400 years of Baptist witness.
Others to participate will be Randall Balmer (Balmer once named Richard Land a “counterfeit Baptist”; Nancy Ammerman and BWA’s leader Neville Callam
From his address to his deacons
Item 3 The Political Agenda of SBC takeover fundamentalists:
I want to say this as objectively as possible and simply give the facts as they have been given to me, not from reading the AJC or the Christian Index; but these items on the agenda have been given to me eye to eye conversation with dear friends with whom I may disagree very thoroughly but who have been clear enough to state the political agenda of the conservative movement.
1)Since 79 The Conservative Resurgence among SBC has tried to move us to a righ wing political philosophy and insisted that a conservative believer would be a political conservative….
2)I have had it stated to me very clearly eye to eye; “If you don’t vote for Ronald Reagan or George Bush there is no way you can claim to be a follower of Jesus Christ.
3) A strong military build up is a very important item on the political agenda….You are going to be supportive of what we did in Granda and Panama. If not, then there is something wrong with your commitment to the Word of God
4)If you favored giving away the Panama Canal, there is no way you can call yourself a Bible Believer
5) Capitalism is the only economic system to be found in the Word of God
6)If you believe the Bible, you will oppose the Equal rights Amendment
7)If you are a Bible believer, you will be Pro NRA…
Question is should these positions become a litmus test for participation in the Kingdom of God
More frightening, Should this agenda be the basis which determines whether a person can teach or serve on a board of trustees for one of our Baptist Institutions?
Stephen,
I agree if these issues (points 1 to 7 in your quote) are what the CR was all about, it was misguided. I also agree that, as in just about any movement in any organization, there may well have been (and may continue to be) extreme elements that are pushing an extreme agenda. That, however, does not invalidate, in my mind, the need for a continual renewal and calling us back, as Baptists, to a position of total submission to the authority of the inerrant, infallible Word of God.
There are enough Christians — by name anyway — to simply “win” the culture by BEING Christian. We can cede the seats of authority to anyone and still have a Christian culture by sheer numbers. We lose that witness when instead, we cede the distinctives that make us Christian in favor of operating by worldly principles in the cultural arena. Who owns the society? The gladiator who bleeds on the coliseum floor or the tens of thousands who watch, and then return home to make dinner?
I watched the video twice. Did not hear the name of Jesus mentioned one time. Did not hear a teaching of Jesus mentioned one time. Did not hear a scripture reference mentioned one time. What kind of so call “Christian” movement is this?
Norman,
Once again, another excellent observation. That is a fantastic quote, by the way:
“Who owns the society? The gladiator who bleeds on the coliseum floor or the tens of thousands who watch, and then return home to make dinner?”
Jim,
It is indeed sad to me that so many have gotten sidetracked by this movement/emphasis. Though I have never agreed “carte blanche” with people like Peter Wagner and Cindy Jacobs, they have said and written things in the past that I have felt were useful for the advance of the Kingdom, and seem to have manifested a clear love for Jesus and for His Word. Perhaps, even now, we shouldn’t throw them completely under the bus. But, I definitely agree that we need to use much discernment, and sound a clear call of warning, in relation to this.
[...] many others a step or two toward the middle, both among conservatives (“Culture Warriors,” and “Seven Mountains” crusaders), as well as among more liberal versions of Christianity (some “Emerging” Christians, and even [...]