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	<title>Comments on: Tweaking Al &#8230;</title>
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	<link>http://sbcimpact.org/2009/07/06/tweaking-al/</link>
	<description>life :: theology :: church :: ministry :: missions :: worship</description>
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		<title>By: Kevin Peacock</title>
		<link>http://sbcimpact.org/2009/07/06/tweaking-al/#comment-11985</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Peacock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 20:43:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Wow, Taran, you have me pegged!  Yes, I was a grader for Dr. Kent for 6 years.  He had a great impact on my life as a student of God&#039;s word, and I was proud to learn more than a few lessons from him in how to teach it.  Dr. Kent passed away in Fort Worth last year, but he left and indelible impression on hundreds, if not thousands, of students.

You are not the first former student who harbors some ill feelings towards the grader (consider us like sports referees).  If it makes you feel better, send it back to me, and I&#039;ll take another look at it. :)

You&#039;re on your own on the marriage thing!  I&#039;ve got issues of my own.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, Taran, you have me pegged!  Yes, I was a grader for Dr. Kent for 6 years.  He had a great impact on my life as a student of God&#8217;s word, and I was proud to learn more than a few lessons from him in how to teach it.  Dr. Kent passed away in Fort Worth last year, but he left and indelible impression on hundreds, if not thousands, of students.</p>
<p>You are not the first former student who harbors some ill feelings towards the grader (consider us like sports referees).  If it makes you feel better, send it back to me, and I&#8217;ll take another look at it. <img src='http://sbcimpact.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>You&#8217;re on your own on the marriage thing!  I&#8217;ve got issues of my own.</p>
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		<title>By: Taran</title>
		<link>http://sbcimpact.org/2009/07/06/tweaking-al/#comment-11984</link>
		<dc:creator>Taran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 20:00:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=3423#comment-11984</guid>
		<description>Kevin,

You are right on.  The initial three tiers are as different from the fourth tier as are the proverbial apples and oranges.  And that&#039;s my point: the harshest discussions in the local church often surround non-biblical (i.e. cultural) issues.  I find that this tiered taxonomy of beliefs helps the local church to gauge how much we should invest in these conflicts.

I particularly like the way you compare this to marriage.  By the way, I&#039;ve often distinguished my leaving socks around the house and hesitance to vacuum the living room as &quot;cultural differences of opinion&quot; between me and my wife.  She doesn&#039;t buy it.

On a personal note, in the last century you were a grader for one of my SWBTS professors (Dr. Kent maybe?)  substituting for him on occasion.  Those classes instilled in me a passion for the OT that continues to this day.  Thanks!  (Though I should’ve received a higher grade on my term paper: &quot;An Argument for the Mosaic Authorship of the Didache&quot;).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin,</p>
<p>You are right on.  The initial three tiers are as different from the fourth tier as are the proverbial apples and oranges.  And that&#8217;s my point: the harshest discussions in the local church often surround non-biblical (i.e. cultural) issues.  I find that this tiered taxonomy of beliefs helps the local church to gauge how much we should invest in these conflicts.</p>
<p>I particularly like the way you compare this to marriage.  By the way, I&#8217;ve often distinguished my leaving socks around the house and hesitance to vacuum the living room as &#8220;cultural differences of opinion&#8221; between me and my wife.  She doesn&#8217;t buy it.</p>
<p>On a personal note, in the last century you were a grader for one of my SWBTS professors (Dr. Kent maybe?)  substituting for him on occasion.  Those classes instilled in me a passion for the OT that continues to this day.  Thanks!  (Though I should’ve received a higher grade on my term paper: &#8220;An Argument for the Mosaic Authorship of the Didache&#8221;).</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Peacock</title>
		<link>http://sbcimpact.org/2009/07/06/tweaking-al/#comment-11983</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Peacock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 19:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=3423#comment-11983</guid>
		<description>As I see it, the items listed in Mohler&#039;s three tiers are all in some sense &quot;biblical doctrines,&quot; that is, issues in some way addressed in the biblical text.  The issues you list in your fourth tier are not.  These I would place in the context of &quot;preferences&quot; or &quot;customs,&quot; rather than biblical truth.  The debates on these &quot;fourth tier&quot; issues tend to be many and vehement, but seldom do they involve the interpretation of scripture.  You are correct that these issues may consume an inordinate amount of our time and energies in church life, but we are wise to keep them in the context of &quot;I think&quot; or &quot;I feel&quot; rather than &quot;The Bible says...&quot;  I&#039;ve seen when this corrective is brought into the discussion (what I call &quot;biblical convictions&quot; vs. &quot;personal preferences&quot;), it tends to take some of the heat from the argument and eliminates much of the pontificating.  We need to be united on our biblical convictions, but on personal preferences, even within a strong marriage, there can be still be differences of opinion.  &quot;Forbearance&quot; (i.e. putting up with some things for the sake of the relationship) will keep such a fellowship strong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I see it, the items listed in Mohler&#8217;s three tiers are all in some sense &#8220;biblical doctrines,&#8221; that is, issues in some way addressed in the biblical text.  The issues you list in your fourth tier are not.  These I would place in the context of &#8220;preferences&#8221; or &#8220;customs,&#8221; rather than biblical truth.  The debates on these &#8220;fourth tier&#8221; issues tend to be many and vehement, but seldom do they involve the interpretation of scripture.  You are correct that these issues may consume an inordinate amount of our time and energies in church life, but we are wise to keep them in the context of &#8220;I think&#8221; or &#8220;I feel&#8221; rather than &#8220;The Bible says&#8230;&#8221;  I&#8217;ve seen when this corrective is brought into the discussion (what I call &#8220;biblical convictions&#8221; vs. &#8220;personal preferences&#8221;), it tends to take some of the heat from the argument and eliminates much of the pontificating.  We need to be united on our biblical convictions, but on personal preferences, even within a strong marriage, there can be still be differences of opinion.  &#8220;Forbearance&#8221; (i.e. putting up with some things for the sake of the relationship) will keep such a fellowship strong.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Harp</title>
		<link>http://sbcimpact.org/2009/07/06/tweaking-al/#comment-11982</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Harp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 18:02:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=3423#comment-11982</guid>
		<description>When we look at Tier Four and find that these things can be grouped as petty or otherwise we could consider them important based upon the providence of God. It would depend on, I think, the process by which the body has agreed upon each item. God told Moses to tell each tribe to choose a leader to go spy out Canaan. It prooved that the heart of the people was not ready to accept God&#039;s promised land. The disciples chose the replacement of Judas by casting lots. It was all about God deciding for the group. Why can&#039;t we establish similar processes to allow God to select some of our petty issues. If the church agreed to move this way, maybe God would have better control. If I was a pastor, I would think I could build off of what we as a church have established. Is this wrong thinking? I know there would be more to the process, however, the idea of God controlling things the way He did before education and technology may be an answer. Hope that didn&#039;t offend anyone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When we look at Tier Four and find that these things can be grouped as petty or otherwise we could consider them important based upon the providence of God. It would depend on, I think, the process by which the body has agreed upon each item. God told Moses to tell each tribe to choose a leader to go spy out Canaan. It prooved that the heart of the people was not ready to accept God&#8217;s promised land. The disciples chose the replacement of Judas by casting lots. It was all about God deciding for the group. Why can&#8217;t we establish similar processes to allow God to select some of our petty issues. If the church agreed to move this way, maybe God would have better control. If I was a pastor, I would think I could build off of what we as a church have established. Is this wrong thinking? I know there would be more to the process, however, the idea of God controlling things the way He did before education and technology may be an answer. Hope that didn&#8217;t offend anyone.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Johnson</title>
		<link>http://sbcimpact.org/2009/07/06/tweaking-al/#comment-11981</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 16:39:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=3423#comment-11981</guid>
		<description>Brother Daniel,

In your post you have brought out “truth” vs. practice.  It is truth that we remember Christ in His communion.  It is truth that all churches have plural qualified leadership.  It is truth that we restore (Matthew 18) all those in the church.  These are non-negotiable according to the Holy Spirit.

The practice of such seems to be where the mud slinging gets started.  Many churches ignore restoration, aspiring leadership, and communion in a variety of methods, which is indicative of the maturity of those (everyone) called to serve Christ in His church.  You show me a church that restores the unity provided by the Spirit, intentionally affirms qualified men to lead and remain qualified, and is careful to observe the table of the Lord….there you will find a group of sinners returning to their first love.

Blessings,
Chris</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brother Daniel,</p>
<p>In your post you have brought out “truth” vs. practice.  It is truth that we remember Christ in His communion.  It is truth that all churches have plural qualified leadership.  It is truth that we restore (Matthew 18) all those in the church.  These are non-negotiable according to the Holy Spirit.</p>
<p>The practice of such seems to be where the mud slinging gets started.  Many churches ignore restoration, aspiring leadership, and communion in a variety of methods, which is indicative of the maturity of those (everyone) called to serve Christ in His church.  You show me a church that restores the unity provided by the Spirit, intentionally affirms qualified men to lead and remain qualified, and is careful to observe the table of the Lord….there you will find a group of sinners returning to their first love.</p>
<p>Blessings,<br />
Chris</p>
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		<title>By: Taran</title>
		<link>http://sbcimpact.org/2009/07/06/tweaking-al/#comment-11980</link>
		<dc:creator>Taran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 16:32:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=3423#comment-11980</guid>
		<description>Chris,

I enjoy your posts and I eagerly await the one you have previewed.  I too have thought of the sandbox metaphor.

Bruce,
We&#039;re on the same page.  One weakness with my suggestions that that the first three tiers are doctrinal while the third is clearly cultural.  So these four tiers represent beliefs moreso than doctrines.

Daniel,
I think the third tier stands pretty well on its own.  Each of these beliefs could be used as a litmus test for church membership in any one particular (or Particular:) Baptist church.  (But so could a Tier Four belief as well).  I like Rick’s comment above.  These could distinguish Baptists, but need not divide Baptists.  To use your example, you could have a minority in a church that believe in closed communion, but the majority favoring open (or vice-versa).  Thus you have a belief that “distinguishes” Baptists within a single congregation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris,</p>
<p>I enjoy your posts and I eagerly await the one you have previewed.  I too have thought of the sandbox metaphor.</p>
<p>Bruce,<br />
We&#8217;re on the same page.  One weakness with my suggestions that that the first three tiers are doctrinal while the third is clearly cultural.  So these four tiers represent beliefs moreso than doctrines.</p>
<p>Daniel,<br />
I think the third tier stands pretty well on its own.  Each of these beliefs could be used as a litmus test for church membership in any one particular (or Particular:) Baptist church.  (But so could a Tier Four belief as well).  I like Rick’s comment above.  These could distinguish Baptists, but need not divide Baptists.  To use your example, you could have a minority in a church that believe in closed communion, but the majority favoring open (or vice-versa).  Thus you have a belief that “distinguishes” Baptists within a single congregation.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Presley</title>
		<link>http://sbcimpact.org/2009/07/06/tweaking-al/#comment-11979</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Presley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 16:22:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=3423#comment-11979</guid>
		<description>Taran, sorry to enrage you. I&#039;ve been cursed with verbosity from an early age and only lately been able to overcome it through strict discipline. Nor is it easy for me to speak succinctly on every occasion. With that excuse, I will blather on....

To expand on the last two sentences, and bounce off Chris&#039;s post just a little, I agree that these are petty issues. However, I warned against treating them as trivial because it is these very issues that form the bitter root of church splits. Churches don&#039;t split over the virgin birth or Manichaeism. Churches split over petty things, not because they are petty people or even because the things themselves are that important. They split because they feel marginalized or polarized or somehow disenfranchised from the decision making process. Whether this is justified or not is an interesting question.

One does not hear of Catholic churches splitting (at least not since the Great Schism), in part because the congregation is already disenfranchised. At the root of our church splits is the expectation that all members have an equal voice and each opinion has as much weight as any other.

This is why I say that the issue is petty, but not trivial. It goes to the very root of our polity and setting expectations in our congregations. We value the voices of the congregation and imbue them with power. Whether the voices use this power responsibly is a whole &#039;nother issue and one worth discussing. What are our pastors doing to equip members to be responsible with their voices?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Taran, sorry to enrage you. I&#8217;ve been cursed with verbosity from an early age and only lately been able to overcome it through strict discipline. Nor is it easy for me to speak succinctly on every occasion. With that excuse, I will blather on&#8230;.</p>
<p>To expand on the last two sentences, and bounce off Chris&#8217;s post just a little, I agree that these are petty issues. However, I warned against treating them as trivial because it is these very issues that form the bitter root of church splits. Churches don&#8217;t split over the virgin birth or Manichaeism. Churches split over petty things, not because they are petty people or even because the things themselves are that important. They split because they feel marginalized or polarized or somehow disenfranchised from the decision making process. Whether this is justified or not is an interesting question.</p>
<p>One does not hear of Catholic churches splitting (at least not since the Great Schism), in part because the congregation is already disenfranchised. At the root of our church splits is the expectation that all members have an equal voice and each opinion has as much weight as any other.</p>
<p>This is why I say that the issue is petty, but not trivial. It goes to the very root of our polity and setting expectations in our congregations. We value the voices of the congregation and imbue them with power. Whether the voices use this power responsibly is a whole &#8216;nother issue and one worth discussing. What are our pastors doing to equip members to be responsible with their voices?</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://sbcimpact.org/2009/07/06/tweaking-al/#comment-11978</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 15:11:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=3423#comment-11978</guid>
		<description>Taran,

It&#039;s interesting that you put closed communion in tier 3.  It makes me wonder if we need yet another tier.  You can disagree about closed communion and still be Baptist, but you can&#039;t disagree about it within one particular church.  There are a few other doctrines that would fall into this same category such as plurality of elders, the role of church discipline, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Taran,</p>
<p>It&#8217;s interesting that you put closed communion in tier 3.  It makes me wonder if we need yet another tier.  You can disagree about closed communion and still be Baptist, but you can&#8217;t disagree about it within one particular church.  There are a few other doctrines that would fall into this same category such as plurality of elders, the role of church discipline, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Harp</title>
		<link>http://sbcimpact.org/2009/07/06/tweaking-al/#comment-11977</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Harp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 14:39:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=3423#comment-11977</guid>
		<description>I like how the tier system lays out the points as you have provided and I agree. It just seems that the fourth tier is more of a church personality which could be mixed up to fit many many different small groups. We could say, &quot;I worship this way (I&#039;m of Paul) or I worship that way (I&#039;m of Apollos)&quot; and we could see these styles becoming carnal if we are not careful. I see this as a point where we may see more of an evolution in the church because of styles rather than purpose. As the world needs change so the church will follow. Whether tradition or contemporary or tra-temporary, it will change enough to meet the demand. I also see good in this as it expands our freedoms in Christ. I agree with what you are identifying. I&#039;m just looking past it a little to see what and why these items may now exist. Good points and a good comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like how the tier system lays out the points as you have provided and I agree. It just seems that the fourth tier is more of a church personality which could be mixed up to fit many many different small groups. We could say, &#8220;I worship this way (I&#8217;m of Paul) or I worship that way (I&#8217;m of Apollos)&#8221; and we could see these styles becoming carnal if we are not careful. I see this as a point where we may see more of an evolution in the church because of styles rather than purpose. As the world needs change so the church will follow. Whether tradition or contemporary or tra-temporary, it will change enough to meet the demand. I also see good in this as it expands our freedoms in Christ. I agree with what you are identifying. I&#8217;m just looking past it a little to see what and why these items may now exist. Good points and a good comments.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Johnson</title>
		<link>http://sbcimpact.org/2009/07/06/tweaking-al/#comment-11976</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 14:29:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=3423#comment-11976</guid>
		<description>Brother Taran,

I think you have unintentionally given me a topic for a future post when you said….

“In my role as an intentional interim pastor, I am currently serving a church that has had a degree of conflict in the past.”

It would be a good topic to discuss if an “intentional interim pastor” is a real critter in Christ’s church. :)


…………………………

Your post though has brought out the trivial level of religious practice.  These fourth tier listings remind me of a group of toddlers that have spent about ten minutes longer in the giant sandbox than intended.  I do think you are right that the typical Baptist church of late is more prone to whine about a storage building or placement of the flowers in the sanctuary….the reason,…because they probably have a stake in that game (buying a door on the shed, or buying the flowers asking their aunt placed them nicely on one end of the remembrance table while accidentally moving the big white bible out of its spot).

Maybe a simple solution is get rid of “all” of the stuff and begin to worship God in spirit and truth.  That would really heat up the bench warmers!

Blessings,
Chris</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brother Taran,</p>
<p>I think you have unintentionally given me a topic for a future post when you said….</p>
<p>“In my role as an intentional interim pastor, I am currently serving a church that has had a degree of conflict in the past.”</p>
<p>It would be a good topic to discuss if an “intentional interim pastor” is a real critter in Christ’s church. <img src='http://sbcimpact.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>…………………………</p>
<p>Your post though has brought out the trivial level of religious practice.  These fourth tier listings remind me of a group of toddlers that have spent about ten minutes longer in the giant sandbox than intended.  I do think you are right that the typical Baptist church of late is more prone to whine about a storage building or placement of the flowers in the sanctuary….the reason,…because they probably have a stake in that game (buying a door on the shed, or buying the flowers asking their aunt placed them nicely on one end of the remembrance table while accidentally moving the big white bible out of its spot).</p>
<p>Maybe a simple solution is get rid of “all” of the stuff and begin to worship God in spirit and truth.  That would really heat up the bench warmers!</p>
<p>Blessings,<br />
Chris</p>
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