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Favorite Quotes
Posted by From the Middle East in Bible & Theology
In the course of serving God, we come into contact with many brothers and sisters who will never be famous or have their names put into print. Yet they are brothers and sisters who walk with God and have great insight into Him, His Kingdom and our task to proclaim Jesus to all peoples. Today I would like to share some quotes from some of these “no name” folks that have deeply impacted me.
From a mentor and dear friend:
1/3 of the world has never heard the Gospel. This is not acceptable.
From a Muslim background believer (MBB) who remains among his people:
I would like to have my job back and a place to live. And I really desire for my family to accept me, but if I must live like this for the rest of my life, so be it. My people must hear about Jesus.
From a pastor and friend who works with Muslim immigrants in the United States:
In post 9/11 America, Muslims are afraid and God has given us [Christians] a window. We should be reaching out to them and showing them we love them even if no one else does.
From a fellow cross-cultural ambassador of the King:
How will Muslims ever consider Jesus worthy of all if His own people do not consider Him worthy of following to the Ends of the Earth?
From a fellow cross-cultural ambassador of the King:
Muslims will understand who Jesus is when we are willing to suffer and die so they can see and hear the Gospel. Wait, no… Muslims will understand who Jesus is when we are willing to send our children to suffer and die so they can see and hear the Gospel.
A first-timer on a short-term team to a Muslim people group. He is speaking about the cross-cultural Kingdom ambassadors there:
These guys will never be known. They will never be on T.V., they will never pastor big churches… but God is here. The people in this place have never heard the Gospel and they are proclaiming it. I need to rethink my priorities and why I want to be a pastor.
A seasoned cross-cultural Kingdom ambassador when I asked him for the best advice he had:
Follow hard after God.
A short-term team member after working among a 100% Muslim people group for the first time:
I have seen people in very desperate situations in numerous countries, without food, clean water, clothes, or a roof over their head. But I have never been as overwhelmed with a burden as I was there, knowing that every person that I was in contact with, some of who I grew to care about deeply throughout the week, did not have a relationship with Christ and would spend eternity in hell. I just keep thinking, it could have been me born here. What if nobody came to tell me the Truth?
Mrs. FTME (my wife) upon being asked why she works with Muslims:
Because I love them.
From a fellow cross-cultural ambassador of the King:
Faith is doing what God commands in spite of how you feel or what you think about it.
From a fellow cross-cultural ambassador of the King:
The only thing that matters is Jesus.
From a dear friend and fellow cross-cultural ambassador of the King:
When church breaks out among Muslims it probably won’t be like anything we imagined. It will probably be very different than Western Institutionalized Christianity’s concept of church… and, honestly, it will probably be quite repulsive to us.
Feel free to comment on these or share insightful quotes you have heard from others whose names may not be known by the masses, but are known to the King.
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“…knowing that every person that I was in contact with, some of who I grew to care about deeply throughout the week, did not have a relationship with Christ and would spend eternity in hell.”
With all due respect, how does he know where these people will spend eternity? The Lord does not create people only to abandon them.
Brother Patrick,
You asked:
She bases this off of the Holy Scriptures’ teaching that only those who hold Jesus to be Lord (King) and Savior will spend eternity with their Lord and Savior.
However, this may not be the question you are asking. The question may be how we could know this of the people in the city we were in? Good question. We do not know this for sure, but what we do know is that, according to all sending agency, reporting agencies and indigenous believers in nearby areas, we know of no believers there. So, we work off of this assumption… though we could be wrong.
You also said:
Amen! That is why He sends us and why we go!!
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
Thanks, brother. I was referencing a troubling theological paradox. I suspect some will consider this heresy, but here goes:
We have a loving God who desires all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:3-4). All men are not saved, however, because some choose to reject God and He gives us the free will to do so.
What about those people who never have a choice? For instance, millions were born, lived and died in North and South America prior to Columbus. They never heard anything about Jesus. Are all of them spending hell in eternity? That would be is inconsistent with the God we know from Scripture. If He wanted them saved, why did He not send missionaries to them sooner? Likewise with people in the Middle East today who have not been reached by the Gospel.
Unless we are willing to accept double predestination – that God creates some people with plans to send them to hell – the logical conclusion is that there must be some way in which God gives ALL people a meaningful choice to follow Him or not, even without explicitly hearing the Gospel message. What that way is, I do not claim to know.
This does NOT reduce our Great Commission obligation to spread the Gospel far and wide, of course. It simply means that when we fail, God does not make other people pay the price for it.
Peace be with you.
Brother Patrick,
This thread has taken an interesting turn that I certainly did not foresee! I would love to answer your question, but do want clarification on your view prior to attempting an answer:
Do you believe that people who die without ever having heard the Story of Jesus/Gospel/Good News go to Heaven (the very presence of God) or do you believe they go to Hell?
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
I am saying that I do not know where such people go, but I do not rule out that some will make it to heaven.
In no way am I arguing for universal salvation. I’m suggesting that it makes no sense for a just and merciful God to 1) create people, 2) deprive them of any opportunity to learn about Jesus and make an informed choice whether to follow Him, and then 3) allow them to go to hell.
Brother Patrick,
I do not think you are arguing for a universal salvation. But in light of Paul’s words in Romans 10:
I do think this makes it pretty clear that an understanding of who God is and what He has done to bring us near to Him is necessary in order to “freely choose” to be with Him. It would be quite hard for someone to “choose” to be with God through the Messiah had they not understood who God is and how He sent His Messiah.
You said:
I would agree that God does not create people just to send them to Hell. However, people do choose to rebel against God. And, God has appointed us as proclaimers of the path of reconciliation. With the knowledge of Him and His Path comes responsibility. As it is written in Ezekiel 33:
So, no I do not believe God creates people for Hell. They rebel against Him and it grieves God in a way that you and I have never been grieved. But, God has a plan to redeem those people. In His sovereignty, God has chosen us to proclaim His Kingdom. If we chose not to, they will not hear. And, as the Apostle Paul clearly states, hearing is necessary for faith and faith is necessary to enter His Kingdom. So, it is not God who deprives of the opportunity to “learn about Jesus,” rather He earnestly desires that people hear His Gospel… but those He has entrusted it to are not always obedient and we are the ones who deprive others of an opportunity to enter the Kingdom.
This is all the more reason to cast off our prejudices, fears and worries and follow Jesus outside the camp, outside of safety, into the places where His Kingdom has never been proclaimed. It is the heart of God to reconcile the world to Himself, yet He has chosen His people as His ambassadors. May we find our hands clean of blood when we stand in His presence!
Peace to you my brother,
From the Middle East
Let’s consider an example. In the year A.D. 300, there were a million or so people living in the Americas. No one brought them the Gospel message because no one knew they existed.
Your reasoning suggests that all those early Americans are now in hell. Their torment is partly their own fault, and partly the fault of the early Roman Christians who were so busy dodging the lions that they failed to evangelize those unknown people across the sea.
To me, this makes no sense. What am I missing?
By the way, where is everyone today? Is SBC Impact working right?
Brother Patrick,
I am saying that wicked people die in their iniquity. But you are responsible to do what God commands. If you do not, blood is on your hands.
Whether one of our brothers was obedient or disobedient to God’s call in A.D. 300 I do not know. But I do know that I cannot escape the thought of millions of Muslims in the world who have never heard the Good News of Jesus. God loves them and has called us to them. Unless you have Scripture to back up this idea of God saving people apart from the Gospel, let us proclaim His Kingdom to the nations!
On another note, do you think every person has the “right” to hear the Gospel? Or, put another way, do you think it is incumbent upon God to make sure that all people hear the Gospel?
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
Brother Patrick,
RE: comment #8:
Not sure where everyone is today. Maybe if I say something about God and Allah we’ll get some interaction!
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
Brothers,
Interesting string you have going…..
Someone asked me this same type of question this morning. It sounds like your just exploring a bit here Patrick, so I’ll chime in a few thoughts,..even though I have a hunch you know the answers.
God is never without His sovereignty. We only wish at times He would give us a little so that we could feel a bit better about ourselves and be able to explain to someone that God is fair…when we really don’t want Him to be just,..because if he were serving out justice, all would be condemned to Hell. One thing is clear though, we own our sovereignty as a sinner without any claim to God’s Kingdom. In stark contrast,…God chose before the foundation of the world those (all) that would glorify Him in His Kingdom, and He will not be without glory, nor will His Kingdom come before He has made it complete.
God has allowed those He has called to pass along the faith through which the evidence and substance of his glory can be seen! This is the faith once for all delivered to the Saints. And it is God’s gospel that will extend and it is the power to change lives in all corners of the world. So,…is it unjust that God stand by and watch a sinner plunge into eternal hell? Yes, because true justice is served. It is at this point that the Apostle Paul sets forth what all believers cherish with heart and soul…..
Romans 5:8-11 “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (9) Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. (10) For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. (11) And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.”
Ephesians 2:4-9 “But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, (5) even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), (6) and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (7) so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (8) For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (9) not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
What a gloriously just God we serve, in that Jesus Christ is the only real justifier through His blood to bring redemption to any wretched sinner in this world. Thank God He has made Himself knowable.
Blessings,
Chris
Brothers,
Probably a better way to pose the question later in my post would be….
So,…is “it really justice” that God stand by and watch a sinner plunge into eternal hell? Yes, because true justice is served. It is at this point that the Apostle Paul sets forth what all believers cherish with heart and soul…..
My first attempt was a little confusing…hopefully this makes my point a little clearer.
Blessings,
Chris
Guys, I’m kind of idly theorizing here. Please be assured I am NOT suggesting that anyone is ever saved by anything other than the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. But here’s the question: is it possible that someone might be saved through Christ without having explicit knowledge of Christ?
For instance, back to our third-century American Indian. Suppose one of them observes nature and realizes there must be a God, and he is sure the totem pole that the rest of his tribe worships is just a piece of wood.
Because God’s law is written on his heart, he knows he has done wrong. He’s never seen a Bible and doesn’t know about Jesus dying on the cross for him – but he still cries out to God for mercy and forgiveness. Will God honor his plea?
I don’t see a problem with this, and I do not think it is inconsistent with anything in the New Testament. That doesn’t mean it is common, and of course we still must do all we can to reach everyone with the fullness of the Gospel.
I personally find it easier to believe in this possibility than to believe that God allowed every single Native American for 1500+ years, with no exceptions, to go to hell with never a chance at salvation. There doesn’t seem to be a third option.
Brother Chris,
Thank you for your input. Good stuff.
Brother Patrick,
You needn’t worry that I will think you a heretic… I’m not a heresy hunter and understand your question(s) as I have had to deal with them in my own struggles with God. On the contrary, I appreciate your genuine struggle to more clearly understand God and His people and trust the Spirit to lead you into all truth.
That being said, I think your example in comment #13 is inconsistent with Romans 10:
I am open to hearing your understanding of why it is not inconsistent with someone spending eternity with God having never heard of the Lord and Savior? Further, if God truly acts with purpose and reason, I am curious as to why He would command us to proclaim His Kingdom to the ends of the Earth if He has chosen to do it a different way? And, no, I do not believe I have to understand all of the King’s commands in order to obey them, but do strive to understand His ways, thoughts, heart and will.
And, I am also curious as to what you think of the question posed at the end of comment #9?
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
FTME,
My favorite: “1/3 of the world has never heard the Gospel. This is not acceptable.”
Wow.
Patrick
Brother Patrick W.,
FTME has brought forward some important points that God has allowed us to know….in the Romans 10 passage.
I too do not think that trying to answer these types of questions leads to heresy…so we can all breath easy.
The writer to the Hebrews gives us exciting clues though….
Hebrews 2:1-4 “For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. (2) For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, (3) how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, (4) God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.”
We that have heard, seen, touched, etc. as John would say of Christ, must pay much closer attention. That is the commission of our Lord to take the gospel to the world. The writer of Hebrews makes it clear that our involvement is ordained as God brings His plan to completion.
Another thing that needs to be remembered is that Adam, Abraham, and all those that are in the family of God are there because of His justification, not because of their wanting or non-awareness. God is not fickle as we are hopeful…
Hebrews 4:13 “And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.”
It is not so outlandish to believe that God allows anyone to go to hell, because that is our lot,….what is amazing is that His plan is to show mercy to some, and it is those whom much has been given.
Blessings,
Chris
Bro FTME, I’ll have to give the Romans 10 passage some thought. You’re right that on the surface it appears not to support my theory.
On the other question: No, I don’t think anyone has a “right” to hear the Gospel, or anything else, actually. When we owe our very existence to God, we are in no position to say He owes us anything at all in return. Whatever He chooses to give us is an undeserved gift.
However, we know that He is a loving God. 1 Tim 2 tells us “This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”
What I am wrestling with is how a loving God who “wants all men to be saved” can allow some to be born, live and die without giving them any opportunity to follow Him. Whether they accept the opportunity is a different question.
The scales of justice have to balance. Does God blame third century Christians for not evangelizing the American Indians? That seems pretty harsh, since they did not know such people even existed. Is it the Indians own fault they didn’t respond to the Gospel? No, because it was never presented to them. So why are they in hell? Did God want them to go there? A few extreme Calvinists might believe in such a God, but I don’t. I’m looking for a better answer.
Brother Patrick W,
It is curious that you are so interested in why God has planned to expand His gospel the way He has chosen to sow it, through the agency of the church… throughout the world. Could God have done a better job maybe?
Hebrews 2:10 “For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.”
All things are for God’s glory, as the Hebrew writer admits. It seems to me that the better question is not whether God has prepared his salvation correctly, but why He would find glory in the giving of His Son. This might change our thinking a little, once we understand the gravity of that justice.
A love that would give The Son does not weigh the justice as we might be inclined to do… of those (all sinners) that are born in wrath. Christ’s justification is bound up in His propitiatory operation that certainly outweigh our thoughts of justice or fairness. The Father’s perfect offering of the Son is bound up in the phrase “for whom are all things”.
There is no excuse whether you are an Indian, American, Pakistani, Iraqi, etc. … God has made it clear that all are culpable, and hearing that brings about repentance is made possible by the Holy Spirit.
Romans 1:18-20 “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, (19) because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. (20) For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.”
God is not without excuse,..those lost in Adamic sin are….
Blessings,
Chris
Chris, I think I am still not making myself clear. Here’s what you say:
God has made it clear that all are culpable, and hearing that brings about repentance is made possible by the Holy Spirit.
I totally agree: all are culpable. But to say that “repentance is made possible by the Holy Spirit” begs the question: How? And for whom?
You and FTME say that repentance is impossible unless a person hears the Gospel. Obviously, over the last 2,000 years many people have not heard the Gospel. Hence, they had no chance to repent.
If God creates people who have no chance to repent, then they are predestined to hell. Unreached people don’t have free will, in other words. They are bound for hell and there is nothing they can do about it.
I just don’t see any other way out of this box, unless we suppose that unreached peoples are offered salvation in some other mysterious way.
Paz contigo.
Brother Patrick W.,
Abraham heard the same gospel that we have heard and that any will hear in the future that are in God’s Kingdom. I’m not sure I follow your line of thinking. The gospel is the “power of God unto salvation”, it is not something new that was discovered in the New Testament. The gospel has been known since Adam (Genesis 3:15).
It is has Paul spoke of…
Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. (17) For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”
Paul used Habakkuk to prove his point….
Hab 2:4 “Behold, as for the proud one, His soul is not right within him; But the righteous will live by his faith.
So the gospel is the power from the beginning (Genesis – Revelation) to bring about the salvation of every soul into the Kingdom. I’m I still missing something here or not getting at your question?
Blessings,
Chris
Chris, maybe it will help to back up a little. Take another look at my comments #3 and #7 above.
I’m running out of ways to ask my question, which I’m sure is the result of my own limited vocabulary.
Patrick
Ah yes Patrick,…that does help,
In your comment #3 you state…
“We have a loving God who desires all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:3-4). All men are not saved, however, because some choose to reject God and He gives us the free will to do so.”
Herein is part of the problem. The Apostles clear this up many times over… The Apostle Paul, speaking for God wrote ….
Rom 9:14-16 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! (15) For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” (16) So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
There is really no paradox here at all. God is merciful on whom he wills to be merciful. It is more difficult for us to glorify God in what he has done,… but it is in no way a paradox. We simply need to begin to understand the love of God before we put him into our definition of love.
Paul was also teaching Timothy that “all” is indicative of the following verses of text that qualify the “all” in light of the entirety of scripture. Paul is not indicating that “all will” be saved, he is indicating that the love of God leads us to understand that this one Mediator Christ Jesus is the only way that any and all men can be saved. In other words, there is no doubt.
1 Timothy 2:1-6 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, (2) for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. (3) This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, (4) who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (5) For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (6) who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
I can rest assured that God’s gospel has powerfully brought death to life since the first man Adam and will continue to work until we meet and are glorified with Him in His Kingdom! Same gospel, same faith, same result, same repentance, same salvation throughout all of history.
Blessings,
Chris
Brother Patrick B,
A powerful quote indeed!
Brother Patrick W,
Re #17 as I think the rest of the conversation is between you and Brother Chris – correct me if I am wrong.
You said:
Amen and amen!
Your struggle is articulated this way:
I would like to bring up a couple of things here:
1. They did have an opportunity. I will refrain from quoting Romans 1:18-31, but Paul clearly articulates in this passage that people choose evil over God. We choose it. It is not a question of whether or not people have the opportunity to worship God, they do… but they refuse it and choose to worship creation instead of the Creator. God then gives them over to their own lusts. Your struggle seems to be why God does not offer them a “second” chance.
2. Going down the same path as the first sentence in your quote above, we might ask why God would have ever let sin enter the world to begin with? Certainly, just as He could afford all an opportunity to hear of the Second Chance, He could have prevented the whole problem of sin to begin with. I do not know why God appointed us as the proclaimers to the world of the Second Chance (that is, to be saved from their iniquity), but He did. And I see no Scriptural evidence of a “plan B.”
Hope this helps.
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
Brother Patrick,
You may want to revisit the translation you have for the Timothy passage as well… “We have a loving God” is not in the text.
1Timothy 2:3-4 τοῦτο καλὸν καὶ ἀπόδεκτον ἐνώπιον τοῦ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Θεοῦ, (4) ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν.
Blessings,
Chris
(Not sure if my Greek paste will come through on the blog.)
Let me try to back into this another way. Two simple questions for both of you.
1. Is it possible that any of the people who lived in the Americas after the Resurrection and died before the arrival of Christian missionaries made it to heaven?
2. If yes, how? Keep in mind they had no knowledge of Jesus.
Brother Patrick W,
I’m pretty sure these questions have already been answered, but will answer and follow up with another question or two:
1. Yes.
2. If they never worshipped creation rather than the Creator.
You have, I think, articulated that you believe God makes the Second Chance (Gospel) available to people apart from His people proclaiming It. Two questions:
1. How do you deal with the text of Romans 10?
2. Why do missions? I know, I know, “Because God said so.” But what is the point if He hasn’t really entrusted the Gospel to us?
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
Brother Patrick W.,
I do appreciate you bringing this type of question to the surface once again, because it always helps me think of God’s mercy. It is an age old question, but nonetheless, it is just as important to answer as it ever has been.
“A few thoughts surface when you said, “Let me try to back into this another way. Two simple questions for both of you.
1. Is it possible that any of the people who lived in the Americas after the Resurrection and died before the arrival of Christian missionaries made it to heaven?
2. If yes, how? Keep in mind they had no knowledge of Jesus.”
The first question is an easy answer, but it has been answered by imitation Christianity down through the years. Such as John Smith,…his account of the Indians getting a visit from Christ has led to a whole subculture being led to believe in a newer testament and a different Christ that sounds script written for the “Wizard of Oz”.
Or those that follow the Egyptian variety of Sun gods,…or by those that follow Buddha and his wisdom. You pick the poison.
God has always answered your question with a yes,..in that all that he calls comes to him, not as an outcome of their “freewill choice”, but as a result of His mercy where all that receive it choose to glorify His Name.
The Corinthian church obviously had some of these same questions. The Apostle Paul gave a clear answer….
2 Corinthians 1:18-22 But as God is faithful, our word to you is not yes and no. (19) For the Son of God, Christ Jesus, who was preached among you by us–by me and Silvanus and Timothy–was not yes and no, but is yes in Him. (20) For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us. (21) Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, (22) who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
In our SBC culture, where I have fortunately been raised for the most part (some things not so good), we will continue to experience and be taught (even in our seminaries) Neo-Pelagian viewpoints as valid and distinctive doctrine. This question that you have raised is one that is exploited by those that teach this new Pelagianistic style using it at times to spur along evangelism. Somehow men have been taught that we are the reason that people get shown mercy. And it is that pride that spreads quickly. The cure is to continue to voice the truth and train men to know the truth, so that these questions move from a context of paradox to an easily discerned doctrine where God is clearly seen as sovereign, worshipped and given glory as such….and we simply feed the sheep.
To answer your second question,…God’s propitiatory act extends from before history into eternity. It is not something we have a stake in at all…it is something done by God alone. Whether you are Noah, Abraham or Pocahontas, God is able to save and He will not alter His plan in order to soothe our emotions.
Blessings,
Chris
Now we are getting somewhere, brothers.
I thought you were saying that salvation is impossible without explicit knowledge of Jesus. Now you both seem to be saying that people who lack that knowledge through no fault of their own still receive some kind of saving grace – as FTME puts it, if they worship the Creator instead of creation.
Now, how is this consistent with Romans 10 and what does it say about the need for evangelism? Here is one idea: maybe Paul was trying to make a statement that was general but not absolute. Permit me another analogy. It is not perfect but will help, I think.
Suppose I am standing on the edge of a large canyon and want to get to the other side. I might say something like “How can I get across without a bridge? And how can I build a bridge without steel? And how can I have steel without a foundry?”
When I say this, do I also mean that there is absolutely, positively no other way to cross the canyon other than a bridge? Not at all. I am using hyperbole to indicate how hard this task is.
Even without a bridge, I could still climb down one side and back up the other. I could walk however far it takes to get around the canyon. I could build a catapult and launch myself to the other side. Etc.
All these alternate paths can, conceivably, get me where I want to go – but the chance of failure is extremely high. I’m much more likely to succeed if I have a bridge.
So it is with the Great Commission. God may choose to save people who have not yet heard the full Gospel – but it will be much more difficult for them. Our job is not to tell them “Hey buddy, start climbing.” We are to build bridges so that crossing the canyon is not so hard, and more people can do it.
I hope this makes sense. The analogy fails, of course, by implying that there is any way we can get ourselves into heaven. That’s not the point. The idea is to explain why we must never stop evangelizing.
I cannot believe that I’m seeing what I think I’m seeing in this thread. Because, it really looks like some of you are saying that some people got saved apart from putting their faith in Jesus. If you are saying that, and it really does look that way, then, “Wow!” Yall really need to take a long, hard look at what you’re saying here.
No one…and I mean, no one….will get to Heaven apart from Jesus. Jesus is the only way to Heaven. And, those American Indians, who lived after the resurrection and before the missionaries came, died and went to Hades to await the judgement. Those Chinese people, who lived way back in the inner parts of China, who died without hearing the Gospel, are in Hades awaiting the judgement of Hell forever. Those tribes in the darkest part of the South American jungles, who died without ever hearing the name of Jesus, are in Hades today awaiting the judgement of Hell forever.
How can you say different and stay true to the Bible?
This is very concerning, FTME and Patrick, very concerning.
David
Uh-oh. I see the stake is ready. When will the fire be lit? I’d like to wrap up a few things first.
Bruce Demarest at Denver Seminary has written probably the finest volume on Soteriology available today, “The Cross and Salvation.” In the chapter on Grace, he asks and answers a series of questions that I find relevant to the sidetrack these comments have taken.
After explaining the differences between common grace and saving grace, he asks:
1. Is “saving grace” present in nature and in world history universally? No.
2. Is “saving grace” prsent in human experience universally? No.
3. Is “saving grace” mediated through the message of Christ and the gospel? Yes.
4. Is “saving grace” mediated through special revelatory disclosures to the human soul? Yes, in EXCEPTIONAL cases.
In answering #4 “yes” he references Enoch and Saul on the road to Damascus. It’s a very qualified “yes”, though. He writes, “…scriptural precedent, certain contemporary witnesses, and the divine sovereignty and freedom suggest the POSSIBILITY that Christ may choose to reveal Himself specially to a person who has not previously heard the good news…”
And, “The reader should note that the view presented here is not that of a person casting himself on the mercy of God as the result of his own searchings. The possibility we hold open is that of a supernatural and contenful revelation of Christ to the soul, which elicits the free response of faith and commitment.”
So, could any Native Americans prior to Columbus have been saved? Possible, but very improbable, and only then by Christ, not through general revelation.
Stuart, thank you for jumping in. Demarest appears to have captured what I was trying to express, at least partially.
I’m not sure about his #2, though. I think it is important to hold out the possibility of salvation for all, while acknowledging that it is extremely unlikely without the benefit of the Gospel message.
Brother Vol,
I will not answer for the other men, but I believe that this exercise is a good one, if none else than to clarify the essential doctrine of redemption. We serve an immutable God that has not changed his method of redemption. Any believer today is redeemed through exactly the same system that was given to Israel in the past, a substitutionary blood sacrifice, using as some have stated “the exchanged life principle.” Theologians have used the following passage to illustrate this….One teacher put it this way….
“Isaiah 53: 4. “Smitten of God, and afflicted.” 5. “But he was wounded because of our transgressions…” 6. “All we like sheep did go astray…And the LORD hath made to light on him The iniquity of us all.” 7. “As a lamb that is led to the slaughter, And as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; Yea, he opened not his mouth.” 8. “For he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due”. 9,10. “Although he had done no violence, Neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him…” 11. “And their iniquities he did bear.” 12. “Yet he bore the sin of many.”
These references are about Israel’s Messiah who exchanged His life for theirs. Who is this Messiah? What is He like? What are His credentials for being an acceptable sacrifice? Micah 5:1. gives an answer, “But thou, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, Out of thee shall one come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; Whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days”. The “ancient days” are from eternity past, without beginning, and the reference is to Deity Himself. Since the sacrifice had to be without spot or blemish, that is, perfect in regard to God’s moral absolutes, only God Himself would suffice.”
So, you are right that no one will have life without the blood of Jesus the Messiah. It is all the more reason that we should take the good news to our neighbors. The subject of babies given to abortion piggyback on this same subject since they are souls without a choice as has been argued.
Blessings,
Chris
Patrick,
I’m not sure Demarest has captured what you were saying, but I hold out the possibility that I may have misunderstood what you meant by “explicit” knowledge of Christ.
I think to accept #2 above is to blur the lines between common grace and saving grace. Perhaps it’s my reformed leanings, but I can’t go there. To me it’s basically universalism, or to use Rahmer’s term (who would answer #2 “yes”), a worldwide “anonymous Christendom”.
To hold out the possibility of a Christophany is not the same thing as to hope that common grace is enough to save some (Pinnock), or that there’s enough of “something” in other world religions to make them salvific in rare circumstances. The difference is still Christ.
good add Stuart…
The life is Christ as John would say….
“What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life–”
Christ is essential for all that are being saved.
Blessings,
Chris
Brother Patrick W,
I would also like to commend this line of questioning. It is important to wade through these types of questions and iron does indeed sharpen iron. However, I do think, based on your comment #28, that you have misunderstood my understanding of the Holy Scriptures on this one. My apologies for ineffective communication. Please allow me to clarify:
The way I understand the Holy Scriptures, all of humanity has the opportunity to worship the Creator rather then creation. God mercifully gives this opportunity to all. However, I have yet to meet someone who has never turned his back on (sinned against) the Creator. We are all accountable to God for this offense. However, God in another act of mercy provides a way for reconciliation. This is what I referred to as the Second Chance. It is through the Incarnation, the Gospel that God did what we could not and, in order to be reconciled to God through His chosen Method, we must have faith. We must “believe” so that we will not be put to shame. But how can we believe if we have not heard? And how can we hear without someone proclaiming? And how can one proclaim unless he is sent?
With regard to your illustration. I do not think there is another way to reconcile a sinner to God except through His Messiah.
Hopefully this clarifies where I am coming from. If so, I would like to refer you back to my two questions in #26.
Peace to you my brother,
From the Middle East
Brother David (007),
While I appreciate your zeal for calling others to account when you perceive they are in error, I am not really clear as to what my error is. Please clarify.
Peace to you my brother,
From the Middle East
Brother Stuart,
Based on what you stated above, I would have to take issue with the two biblical examples cited above (Enoch & Paul). Actually, I do not take issue with Enoch, but am just not sure how his life supports the idea of people coming to faith in God and His Messiah apart from hearing. Please elaborate.
With regard to Paul on the road to Damascus, a few things to bear in mind:
1. He heard the Gospel from Stephen as a young man.
2. People (Ananias and others) were a major part of Paul’s repentance experience.
3. Ananias tells Paul to “wash away your sins” after the Damascus road experience. This falls in line with what we are seeing in the Muslim world all the time. Dreams and visions lead someone to an ambassador of the Kingdom. While I may not know the exact second when these Muslims (or Paul) passed from death to life, I do know that God’s people are involved.
All of that being said, I will have to add Demarest’s book to my book wishlist.
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
Here is the quandary in a nutshell, as I see it. You must believe one of these two things:
1) There is a way unreached people (perhaps few and rarely, but at least some) can achieve salvation, or
2) God predestines some people to hell.
Bro David (#29) is at least being consistent when he says ALL the Indians, Chinese and so on went to hell. But if you believe God creates some people, knowing they will sin, and then gives them no means to receive forgiveness – isn’t that double predestination? Or at least its functional equivalent?
Any Calvinists who know a way to split this hair, please correct me.
Patrick,
Every person that has ever lived on this planet had the possibility to be saved. The death of Jesus was sufficient to cover the sins of every person that has ever been born of a woman. And, every person has had the light of creation around them…to show them that there is a God, a creator God. Yet, men reject this light, and they turn to gods of their own making, and they still rebel and live in sin. Mankind also has the light of a conscience. All people have a conscience that tells them that there are rights and wrongs, and that there is a God that they will answer to one day. Yet, men reject this light as well. They continue living in sin. They continue to live with gods of thier own making.
Thus, no man will be able to stand before the Lord one day and say,”Well, I never had a chance to be saved!! I didnt have any light shed on me! I’m not responsible for my actions. I’m not to be held accountable for my lack of faith.” No, no, no, no. Those lost Chinese in the inner parts of China had the light of creation and thier conscience, and they rejected it. Now, they didnt have the same light as a boy in Alabama has…because the Gospel is being preached in Alabama. The boy hears the light of the Gospel in Alabama. But, many of them reject this light as well. Hell will be hotter for the boy in Alabama who rejects so much light. But, the Chinese, who grew up in the inner parts of China and never heard the Gospel, still had light. They still rejected the light they had. And, hell awaits them.
And, Patrick, if those Chinese, or American Indians had responded to the light they had, and they wanted to know the God of creation; then God would have moved Heaven and Earth to get a missionary to them… to share the glorious Gospel of Jesus with them.
David
Good Word Vol… God always makes and has established the way!
Blessings,
Chris
FTME,
I certainly won’t quibble with you about Paul. I’m actually much more comfortable with the idea that sometmes very spectacular experiences (perhaps Christophanies, perhaps not) lead individuals to the person who will tell them about Christ. I was mainly just putting Demarest’s argument out there for people to chew on, and to point out that there are indeed some conservative scholars who DO hold out hope for those who’ve “never heard” in the sense we use the term, but it is not a hope that exists apart from an encounter with Christ.
Patrick,
I’ll try to answer your question since I hold to a view that I’ll describe as a “single” unconditional election. It goes like this: Because of the Fall, we are all born under sin’s penalty. As such, we are all, BY NATURE, born on the way to hell. God didn’t will that per se…it’s just who we are after the Fall. It is only because of His grace that ANY hear, that ANY are called, and that ANY believe.
Now, does it strike my finite human mind as “unfair” that I was given a chance to believe, and that someone else in some other culture in some other era wasn’t afforded that same luxury. Yeah. But I’m not God.
I am a sovereigntist, and I have just a couple thoughts…
I want to start with this thought, then come back to it.
When thinking about this sort of thing, I have found it more beneficial to think about God’s purpose for HIS CREATION. And I argue that our chief end is to glorify and enjoy God. And His chief end is to glorify and enjoy himself. (anything else would be idolatry)
So God’s main goal in whatever he does throughout human history, be it the resurrection or the holocaust, He did it for His Name’s sake. I think without this in the background, we wont reach an acceptable conclusion.
Now, concerning #39, If you are honest, I dont think you can accept predestination without affirming double predestination.
And- I think it strange that we feel we have to defend God’s justice.
Though I do it too.
What if God did decide to do double predestination, allow some no opportunity, and then grant them their just consequence?
Is that unfair?
Is it not also unfair for humans to make porcelain dolls, that can be dressed up and admired, and out of the same material make toilets? Why does this material get honor, and this get flushes? – All of this material is of good use to the Maker.
Rom 9:21, in the context of God’s choice being the only *merit* with which we are chosen, Paul says-Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
I just CANT get over this one…
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory? -Rom 9 again…
So- even if God never gave Native Americans a chance to repent, it is his prerogative, his over-my-head-prerogative, because he desires to show his wrath and power.
A terrible and shaking truth, and I have wept at it… and again recently because an unrepentant friend I had invested in and loved on died this week.
I hope this wasn’t too scatterbrained to follow.
Brother Patrick,
Re: #39:
First, I am not sure whether or not you were referring to me when you implied that someone in this comment stream is not being consistent. If it was me, please let me know where you think I was being inconsistent so that may reconsider.
Second, without attempting to sound offensive, it seems you keep repeating the same question in different ways. While I cannot speak for all, I do understand the question and we simply disagree on the answer. And, while I am no great theologian and pretend not to understand such doctrines as “double predestination,” I will answer again:
God creates all people to worship Him. If someone worships Him and Him alone, they are unstained by iniquity and God receives their worship. When someone turns away from God and worships creation rather than the Creator, the Creator turns them over to their passions. I have yet to meet someone who has not done so. That is what we might call the “first” opportunity. What you are concerned with is the “second” opportunity. That is, to be reconciled to the Creator. This comes only through the Path which God has chosen – Jesus. Paul states that one must have faith in Jesus, God’s plan for redemption and reconciliation, in order to be “saved” or received “salvation.” Peter, speaking of this salvation, says, “there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” Paul further states that one must hear in order to believe (have faith) and one must go and proclaim in order for someone to hear. I do not find anything in Holy Scripture that would indicate otherwise. In fact, I see God calling His people, all throughout Holy Scripture, to go and proclaim BECAUSE of His great concern for the redemption of people.
Now, to the way in which you are framing this question:
If I follow the same line of reasoning you use, I suppose we could say that God predestined a tsunami to kill 225,000 people in 2004 or, that He predestined the 9/11 attacks because He did not stop them, or even that when God creates anyone that He foreknows will worship creation, will then hear the Gospel and susequently reject it, He is predestining them to Hell. However, I would argue that God allowing something to happen is not quite the same as God causing something to happen – and, though I may be wrong on this point, “causation” seems to be implied in your use of the term “predestine.” Holy Scripture teaches that we are condemned for our own iniquity of worshipping creation rather than Creator. Brother, people have preferred this iniquity to worship of the One True God. As you have agreed, it does not impugn His character for Him to justly judge them. But it does show His great generosity, love and unfathomable mercy in offering a plan of redemption… even if He is willing to entrust it to us, knowing that we will not always be faithful. It is not His heart and character that has issues (I know you agree with this), it is our hearts that need to repent and feel His great love for all people!
At any rate, I will say that, over the Greek philosophical attitude to these questions, I much prefer the Semitic/Near Eastern attitude (both Hebrew and Arab), “Do it! Even it you do not understand it, He is God. Obey Him!”
Hopefully this help to answer your question.
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
Brother Stuart,
Thank you for the clarification.
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
Brother David (007),
You have stated I am in error (comment #29). I am still confused as to what my error is. Please clarify.
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
Brother Wekesa,
I was able to follow your thoughts, but that does not mean they are not scatterbrained ;^)
Thank you for your input. I appreciate different aspects of different tradition and one thing I love about the reformed tradition is its exaltation of God, His mercy and His justice.
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
FTME,
Patrick’s questions in #25, and your answers in #26.
David
FTME,
In #25 Patricks adds, “keep in mind they had no knowledge of Jesus”. Your answer to him holds out hope for the person who never worshipped the created over the Creator. It’s a philosophical answer to a hypothetical question. I can see how one COULD interpret you to be saying something you’re not.
However, the questions you ask Patrick in that same response point out your divergence with his own view. Other posts you’ve written since #26 clarify it even further. How one could CONTINUE to interpret you to be saying something you’re not, I have no idea.
FTME,
Also, in hindsight, I see I never addressed your question about Enoch. Rather than to cite extra-canoncial sources that indicate some sort of Christophany, I’ll leave the question of Enoch to Demarest (who offered the example) and let my comments in 42 stand.
Brother David (007),
Have you read comment #36 or #44 which clarify #26?
If not, please allow me to recap:
God creates all people to worship Him. If someone worships Him and Him alone, they are unstained by iniquity and God receives their worship. When someone turns away from God and worships creation rather than the Creator, the Creator turns them over to their passions. I have yet to meet someone who has not done so. That is what we might call the “first” opportunity. What Brother Patrick is concerned with is the “second” opportunity. That is, to be reconciled to the Creator. This comes only through the Path which God has chosen – Jesus. Paul states that one must have faith in Jesus, God’s plan for redemption and reconciliation, in order to be “saved” or received “salvation.” Peter, speaking of this salvation, says, “there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” Paul further states that one must hear in order to believe (have faith) and one must go and proclaim in order for someone to hear. I do not find anything in Holy Scripture that would indicate otherwise. In fact, I see God calling His people, all throughout Holy Scripture, to go and proclaim BECAUSE of His great concern for the redemption of people.
What is it that you disagree with here, brother?
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
Brother Stuart,
No problem, I’ll check out his book at some point in the future.
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
FTME, I did misunderstand your answer in #26, as Stuart explains in #49. Your subsequent clarifications have set me straight. I think I understand your point now.
I’m not sure if we disagree or not, because after this discussion I’m not sure what I think. I especially want to consider Wekesa’s thoughts more carefully and look into Demarest. You’ve been very helpful in clarifying the issues.
On this I think we can all agree: To the extent anyone, anywhere, anytime receives salvation, it is an unmerited gift of God. Furthermore, we who have received that gift must do everything in our power to reach those who have not heard the Good News.
Patrick
Brother Patrick W,
I really appreciate your genuine questions and openness to seeking after God in this question. And, I do believe that the Spirit is faithful to reveal truth to those who are genuine in their seeking after God’s heart.
You said:
AMEN & AMEN!!
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East