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Baptist Rivalries?
Posted by John Stickley in Baptist Life
As I was sitting at the computer tonight, pondering what to write about, looking back over some of my blog posts from the past three years, and considering some of the recent turmoil in Baptist blog land (my goodness was last week ugly!), I found myself struck with a thought.
Granted, it was about basketball and the big rivalry game going on in the background between Mizzou and Kansas (yes, attention deficit disorder at its best). But still.
It’s interesting to me. Mizzou / Kansas is a HUGE rivalry. It doesn’t even really matter what sport we’re talking about… we love our teams… we love the sports they play… we follow team developments daily… we live and die with each game. We’ve got a LOT in common… yet fans of each school can hardly stand each other.
It’s funny how Baptist life tends to parallel this in a lot of ways.
I know the analogy is not perfect, but Baptist life is a lot like a rivalry between two great sports teams. There are a lot of gifted players on each team, all with unique sets of talents and skills. We all agree on the rules and objective of the game, but the teams clearly have different styles of play and different strategies. Almost everyone has their favorite, and many are downright fanatical about their preference. When discussion about which team’s way is best arises, passions are revealed, and arguments happen. Over time, these divisions become so clear that it often appears as though supporters of each “team” actually hate each other. Real dialogue seems impossible.
Why does it seem to be this way in Baptist life so frequently? I know the analogy breaks down in many ways, but seriously… what can we do to reduce the “rivalry” between the various theological and methodological “teams” so that dialogue can be possible? And what can we do to encourage each other to find common ground despite our differences?
And perhaps most importantly… how can we keep our focus on the fact that, in reality, we’re actually playing for the same team?
Again, I’ll admit… I’m probably off tonight with this analogy, too elated by the Tigers’ victory to have any sort of clear thoughts about Baptist life.
But as my mind wanders, I still wonder…
What do you think?
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Yes, we have all been drafted on His team; however, none of us actually have any skills per se, we are drafted to make our “Coach” look great. While we all have the same “rule book” not everyone agrees on the interpretation. Some players have found rules that they consider foundational to understanding the book and to pleasing their Coach. And they have a hard time understanding how other players have come to a different conclusion.
So consequently, we have developed the “league system.” Same overall team but we have partnered with a league that has the same idea about how to “play the game.” That is where the player really grows and develops relationships with their teammates. That is where the hard work comes in, the perseverance, the sweat, the training. While they wish the other leagues well in their journey, who have the same Coach, their energies are spent in their own league.
Like you said, the analogy breaks down but that’s all I got for 4:22 AM CST.
John,
Not bad for 4:22 AM.
Everyone,
With 8 hours of travel and about the same in meetings and appointments ahead of me today, please accept my apologies in advance that I’ll be unable to interact with everyone’s thoughts until late this evening (if not even tomorrow).
John,
I honestly think that there are many among Southern Baptists who don’t believe that all of us are actually on the same team. That’s the sad part…
Missouri has a basketball team?
Did he call us to a relationship with a Person not to a rule book?
We all like clubs and like to belong to the BEST club. Normally the best clubs have limited membership. Are we raising our importance by being in the BEST club with the BEST people with the rules we like?
Rules are much easier to follow than a relationship. We always can refer to our rule book without having to ask the Person to whom we are to relate.
In the midst of the tug-of-war are we missing out that God may be speaking to us through the financial crisis? Is this another wake up call like 911 that we prayed about and sang patriotic songs for a few days. Can we fix this crisis without a relationship with HIM in prayer?
John, I like you comments.
Charles
I concur that there are too many people who seem unwilling to agree to disagree on some issues. However, I would not agree if someone were to say that there are no issues that we should be willing to divide over. For instance, I’m a Calvinist but I have no problem working with some who disagrees with me on that issue. I mean, they can be wrong if they want to. Haa haa. Kidding.
However, there are Southern Baptist churches that have women pastors. I would not be willing to cooperate with a church that so clearly violates God’s word. If someone wanted to label me a sexist or say I’m narrowminded because of that, well, I’ve been called worse.
I think the internet exacerbates the problem mentioned in the OP. Not dealing with people face-to-face causes emotions to rise much more quickly. Even arguing in print would be better, where publishers can do some of the work of weeding out who actually has something important to say and who doesn’t, who’s done their research and who hasn’t, etc.
Blogs and comment sections tend to attract a higher percentage of people who assume everyone wants to hear their opinion, and quickly take it personal when someone disagrees with them. (note I say this while commenting on a blog that I’ve just read) Disagree with someone over at SBCToday and quickly you’ll be told you’re questioning their Christian character and integrity! Disagree with someone at Wade’s blog and they’re sure you want to lock women in a dungeon!
I guess mainly what I’m saying is that the internet and SBC blogosphere lets people on the edges have easier access to one another and brings the fight out on the open for all (who care) to see.
Brother Charles,
You have struck on the real issue. Relationship that is built on truth recognizes no one according to the flesh,….since we are in Christ. The Roman church were having much of these same issues and the Jews and Gentiles were trying to figure out where they stood with each other…. and the Apostle addresses their shortcomings very effectively.
Romans 14:7-10 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; (8) for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. (9) For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. (10) But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
Christians have a bad habit of wanting to help God out to the exclusion of their brothers and sisters. When all along it is the Spirit of the Life of Christ that leads us to unity. To stick with John’s theme,…during the game not only do prideful pastors want the basketball,… when they miss the shot they blame the misses on the ball being to inflated, or slick, or whatever excuse they can find. Prideful pastors simply need to hear the gospel, repent and submit to Christ and give unqualified love to their brothers and sisters. The ole prideful expression “I love you in Christ” simply doesn’t cut it.
Blessings,
Chris
Joe Blackmon said…
However, there are Southern Baptist churches that have women pastors. I would not be willing to cooperate with a church that so clearly violates God’s word.
Joe, I wonder what you mean by “cooperate.” I completely agree with you about women pastors. However, I would have no problem working with such a church (or anyone else) if it meant we could more effectively serve our community’s needs. Theological differences should not stop us from helping the poor and sick, for instance.
I suppose “cooperate with” didn’t really communicate well. I was thinking specifically about the case of FBC-Decatur and how there are some people that are so tore up that the GBC is probably going to disfellowship that church. I am very glad to see that happen. Now if Decatur FBC called my church (if I was in Decatur–otherwise the hypothetical example won’t make sense) and asked if we would be interested in helping with a soup kitchen or had some clothes to donate for a needy family I can’t see where I’d say no to that.
John,
what can we do to reduce the “rivalry” between the various theological and methodological “teams” so that dialogue can be possible? And what can we do to encourage each other to find common ground despite our differences?
Cooperation is only possible where there is a desire for cooperation by all involved. I have in the past taken this as a given fact that all Southern Baptist desire cooperation, but after the ugly mess of last week on some Baptist Blogs I am no longer sure that is true… in fact I am convinced it is not true at all.
When a certain group of Southern Baptist Ministers take the extraordinary disrespectful and insulting action of banning fellow Southern Baptist Ministers from commenting on their Blog because they do not agree with them… well then dialogue is impossible.
You ask what can we do to reduce the “rivalry”? I think a little respect for the views of those who disagree with us would go a long, long way. However, right now I just don’t see that coming from some Southern Baptist MINISTERS.
Grace Always,
I have to confess I don’t know what you guys mean about the last week’s events. I must read the wrong blogs. Can someone briefly explain what happened?
A while back, someone challenged Frank Pollard (FBC Jackson, MS) why he did not get involved in SBC politics. This friend asked Frank, “Why don’t you get in the game?” Frank replied, “My friend, that’s not the game. That’s the fight underneath the stands.”
He went on, “The game God has given us is to go into the world and make disciples. The game for Southern Baptists is to support and undergird the way of training and equipping people to go into all the world, and supporting the 6,000 missionaries we have. The game is to give integrity to the gospel of Jesus Christ and not to embarrass it.” He remarked after reflecting on the conversation, “I would say to my friend and to all Southern Baptists, ‘Why don’t you get out of the fight and get into the game?’”
For what it’s worth.
I am beginning not to care.
Not that I don’t care about the issues, or think they are not important. I do.
I don’t care because I think that a lot of the controversy starts with people who want to hear their own bells clang, and revel in the controversy to see their site meters go up.
They love all the multiple posts of “yes” and undying love headed their way, while they excoriate the one lone poster who says “no” in disagreement without answering the argument against them.
I too wanted to know “what it was all about.” I went and read and shook my head.
There are some who have taken their criticisms to shillness – and they are never wrong, nor do they apologize for the largess of their shill. They are ALWAYS right, and NEVER are they wrong. They are as legalistic and narrow minded as the people they accuse of being so.
There are some I disagree with who always have grace. There are others I agree with who are always disagreeable.
This why Geoff, myself, and others started this place – a solitude of finding unity in diversity, of agreeing to the fundamentals of our faith and the love we share as a member of the Body of Jesus Christ. In all things here we desire to share the Love of the Master. Admittedly we have not always been successful in that endeavor. But I hope you faithful readers agree that SBCImpact! has been that helpful place of solitude and encouragement we need for our ministries in the world.
Rob
Rob, you nailed it right here:
“… I think that a lot of the controversy starts with people who want to hear their own bells clang, and revel in the controversy to see their site meters go up. … They love all the multiple posts of “yes” and undying love headed their way, while they excoriate the one lone poster who says “no” in disagreement without answering the argument against them.”
And here:
“There are some who have taken their criticisms to shillness – and they are never wrong, nor do they apologize for the largess of their shill. They are ALWAYS right, and NEVER are they wrong. They are as legalistic and narrow minded as the people they accuse of being so.”
I kind of liken it to the weather. When you have two very different, opposing air masses that collide, you get a storm … every single time. And that’s what’s going on now. The two “sides” in SB life are not even close to one another. Neither seems to believe they can be wrong, neither seems teachable.
So, what do we get? Ugly, messy, public conflict.
On the one had, there are some that seem to be “legends in their own minds,” and in grave need of affirmation and stroking. Then there are others who seem to feel the need to “right” every one of their perceived “wrongs,” at any cost.
What a sad, sad shame. Makes me love my wonderful little local church even more.
Amen, Rob (and John).
They HAD UNITY AT BABEL, UNTIL GOD SEPARATED THEM. When men get
together, COMPROMISE and APOSTASY are the result.
This throws a damper on the subject, eh/ wink.
John,
I think it is important to distinguish between Christian fellowship and cooperation in ministry projects. We are obligated by the command of Christ to have fellowship with all those who name the name of Christ, are truly born again, and preach a gospel that is not “a different gospel—which is really no gospel at all” (Gal. 1:6-7). However, in certain ministry projects, it is easier, and more conducive, to cooperate with some believers, and groups of believers, than with others.
Just because we have differences of opinion, and values, though, doesn’t give us an excuse for refusing to fellowship with, or for not showing love and respect to, our brother or sister in Christ.
For example, I have been humbled in the past when, on several occasions, I have been placed in situations where I was expected to pray and fellowship together with a female pastor or two. Did I believe they were doing right by accepting the pastorate of a church, or calling themselves pastors? No. But that doesn’t mean that, because of that, they are not my sisters in Christ. And, praying together with them, I was able to see that they love Christ just like I do. That doesn’t mean I have to start condoning their view on “women in ministry.” But neither does it mean I have to reject everything else they have to offer, as far as ministry is concerned, just because I disagree with them on this one point.
Some of the issues being debated on the Baptist blogs are significant issues that need to be discussed. In the end, some of us who hold different positions may come to the conclusion that it is not conducive to continue to cooperate together on certain ministry projects the same way we have done so in the past. That would be a big shame, in my opinion. But, if two views are mutually incompatible, and neither side is willing to budge, or if their convictions don’t allow them to budge, it may be best, just like Paul and Barnabas, to end up “parting ways.” However, that never gives us an excuse to treat each other with disdain, nor to quit receiving one another, and fellowshipping with one another, as authentic brothers and sisters in Christ.
None of us is perfect. And we have all made mistakes in regard to this. I hope we will continue to grow in grace, and learn from our mistakes.
There is no easy solution to the problem you pose. But God is rich in mercy, and still has a plan to use us, in spite of our faults and weaknesses.
*On another plane, I was happy to see your Missouri Tigers beat the lucky Kansas Jayhawks who stole the national championship from my Memphis Tigers last year. But, when all is done and told, the only Tigers left standing will be those from Memphis!
Chris J,
AMEN AMEN AMEN
David Rogers,
AMEN AMEN AMEN
Out of all people who have responded with comments to this post, Kevin Peacock’s hammer has hit the nail with the most accuracy and force.
The “game” we’re all playing lies not in the fight over our differences, but in the fight against lostness in our world.
In regard to my analogy, for clarity’s sake I suppose I need to point out that I did not intend to imply that we must cooperate in all things regardless of our differences (I suppose there are indeed times when it’s Biblical to walk separately). Rather, my intent was to point toward the “rivalry” like nature between the various “teams” of Baptist thought… it seems that in many cases, whether “players” or “fans”, the “teams” can hardly stand each other.
And I can’t see how this can possibly be pleasing to God.
(BTW, my apologies again for being unable to interact with everyone’s thoughts yesterday. After a 16-hour day of travel and meetings, I was simply wiped out last night!)
John,
Let me ask you something? If you believe that women Pastors and Deacons are against Scripture…not just a different interpretation…but against the clear teachings of Scripture, then how can that person cooperate(start Churches, seminary, etc.) with the crowd that believes it’s ok to ordain women?
Or, if someone believes that ecumenism is ok…you know, accept baptisms from Churches that dont believe that salvation is eternal; or that we can start Churches with people, who believe that salvation can be lost; or even believe that we can allow teachers in our seminaries, who believe that abortion is ok, or that homosexuality is just an alternative lifestyle that you’re born into; or who think that we can join with other Christian groups, who call themselves Baptist even, who accept the ordination of women, or homosexuality, or who deny the inerrancy of Scripture,i.e., the New Baptist Covenant meetings; how can we join with such people? How can we not stand against such things if we believe that these things are unBiblical and will hurt the SBC?
Please, tell me this?
David
David,
Did you not read my last comment?
I don’t have a problem at all with people standing for what they believe to be clear scriptural truths. I don’t have a problem with people cooperating or not according to their conviction. I believe that dialogue is valuable and needed, even though I have no illusions that such dialogue will produce consensus of belief.
All I’m trying to say here is this:
I take serious issue with the “if you’re not on my team you’re my enemy” type of attitude that often seems to come through in debate / discussion of issues in Baptist life (real or not, that perception comes through). Though there are clearly different “teams” (and obvious differences between such), our ultimate purpose is the same… to see a lost world come to know Jesus Christ. I would hope that commonality would allow for more “friendly” discussion. I would hope our “rivalries” would be lessened in that light.
I don’t know how to make it any more clear than that.
John,
There’s no need to get upset. I’m just commenting and asking questions.
Also, I dont see it as a personal thing that’s going on at all. It’s a theological thing…that’s very important to some of us. I dont hate Wade, nor Paul Littleton, nor anyone else. But, I will certainly stand toe to toe against anyone who promotes ecumenism, weak theology about baptism, ordaining women, or who questions the inerrancy of the Bible. But, it’s not personal.
I really took your post to mean that this is a personal thing. That the argueing and debating is our team against your team. I dont see it that way at all…at least not on my part. If Wes Kenney were promoting the ordaining of women as Elders/Pastors, then I’d be argueing against what Wes was promoting. If Bart Barber was promoting ecumenism, then I’d be going toe to toe with Bart. But, thank God that Wes and Bart beleive the Word of God, and feel that it’s important that we stand on sound doctrine.
David
John,
As with Chris and David Rogers, you have stated what it is to be a Christian and pleasing to God the Father.
David/Volfan7,
It Grieves me as well as God that you just don’t get it.
Wayne
Bro. John, if Bro. David can’t see what you meant by your last post. Heaven help him. We need to speak the truth in love, and not count those who disagree as enemies, but admonish them as brothers. We are all in this thing together. And when we get to Heaven, we may find we are all wrong.
Satan delights to see Christians at odds, fighting one another in stead of proclaiming the Gospel, to a lost and dying world.
Wayne and Dr. Foltz,
I’m sorry that you two just dont seem to get what I’m saying. But, thanks for condemning me.
David
David
Sure looks like you are condemning yourself in most of your comments.
I’m sorry that you two just dont seem to get what I’m saying. But, thanks for condemning me.
Wally
John,
Now, would you say that Dr. Foltz and Wayne “Super Saint” Smith, and Wally are “teaming up” against little ole me? What they’re saying to me almost does sound personal.
David
David,
I’m not upset, just trying to clarify my post and follow-up comments in light of your reply. Everything I stated was intended to come across in a calm, matter of fact tone.
My point continues to be that, though it may not be a personal thing to anyone, it doesn’t always come across that way. Maybe it’s just me (on second thought, of course it is… that is the point of the post… my perception), but it often APPEARS that there’s almost a “team spirit” type of thing that goes on in Baptist life, an “us vs. them” thing that keeps people with opposing theological / methodological viewpoints at odds with each other.
The question I continue to have is… what do we do to overcome this?
You see, when the sole interaction going on between two people is endless debate and disagreement, how in the world can those two people grow any sort of relationship except an adversarial one? I hate to draw names into this, but, for example, when Bart and Wade butt heads nonstop, how can they grow to have the kind of relationship that God expects of brothers in Christ?
Sure, iron sharpening iron is great… no doubt about it. But I’m not going to accept rebuke or correction nearly as well from someone with whom my sole interaction has been nonstop theological disagreement over a blog as I would the guys I go to church with and spend hours with each week. Relationship seems (to me, at least) to be a necessary requirement for meaningful dialogue… and that seems to be sorely lacking in most of Baptist life.
Anyway, I’m rambling, but do you see what I’m getting at?
John,
I do see what you’re getting at. I guess my question is this: how can there be unity when the divide is too deep? For example, I believe strongly that ordaining women is Biblically wrong. I dont see any wiggle room in interpretation to see otherwise. While, at the same time, we have Churches that ordain women, and call women to be thier Pastor, and they dont like that I believe as I do. So, how can I have unity with someone whom I believe is violating clear Scripture?
For example, again, Bart does not believe in ecumenism. Wade apparently does…as his involvement with the New Baptist Covenant meetings shows.
David
Wayne, Dr. Foltz…
I do appreciate that you guys follow what I’m saying and that you appreciate the message of my post and comments, but please… let me talk through this with David.
Wally,
I’m not sure why you feel it necessary to chime in here with the comment to David. I don’t mean to be harsh, but please… if you don’t have anything productive to add to the conversation, stay out of it.
David,
I think a lot of this discussion hinges on what you’re getting at by unity.
If you’re talking about who you can cooperate with in doing ministry, and what things you feel you can do in good conscience with them, then sure… I understand the difficulty in deciding where to draw the line.
But if the question is one of being reconciled to another believer with whom you have big theological differences, and having a God-honoring relationship with them, I have to ask, “why not?” Doesn’t love covers a multitude of sins?
John
Sorry about the comment I did. I just see some of the things that are being said on these here blogs. Some people just like to dish it out, but they can’t take it.
Wally
Wally,
God bless you.
John,
I agree that we can be more civil in our disagreeing and that things can get out of hand sometimes. And, you’re correct about getting along with other Believers…even if they dont believe like we do. Amen! I can and do get along with Methodists and Pentecostals and Presbyterians. In fact, I’m very friendly with Pastors from these types of Churches in my town.
But, when someone is trying to persuade the SBC to become more ecumenical, or to teach that ordaining women is ok, or to not believe that the Bible is inerrant; then sometimes, the talk has to turn a little more strong. It’s not just about getting along with other Believers at that point. It’s trying to turn back the theological tide of ecumenism, or liberalism, or some other “ism” that will be harmful to the Churches of the SBC. Do you see what I’m saying?
And, you’re right about disagreeing in a more agreeable way. But, something else, John. Some people dont get humor. Some people just cant grasp sarcasm in trying to drive home a point. I mean, there will be no anger, nor hatred intended; but people take things wrong. And, as I found out in another blog not too long ago, even asking for proof and evidence to back up an allegation being made is seen as being a meanie. What do you do with that?
David
David:
You said”But, I will certainly stand toe to toe against anyone who promotes ecumenism, weak theology about baptism, ordaining women, or who questions the inerrancy of the Bible. But, it’s not personal.”
Who in the world in the SBC is doing what you said above? IMO you are a zealous crusader and oh yes it is personal, because you believe you are right and others are wrong.
But you keep asking your little questions.
Questions are never unimportant, Tom. It is how we learn. I don’t believe David’s questions are unimportant. In many ways I share his concerns – in some ways I disagree with him – but in all ways I am very graceful with my brother David.
It is not the questions that are stupid Tom. It is the spirit they are asked, and how one answers them. One cannot help to note that you ask many of these same types of questions as well. How well do you ask them?
I will ask several questions of you as well (and I hope that you do not believe that I am asking “little” questions okay?) Is it profitable to fellowship and work together with Christians who believe that it is okay to allow women to “make a choice” to eliminate the unborn? Can we fellowship with those who zealously promoted and voted for a politician who did not have one squeamish while they supported partial birth abortion and voted against allowing infants to live who survived their abortions? Should we just knock the dust off our feet and walk away from these “Christians”? Is “life” a tertiary issue? Are any of these questions “little” in your opinion?
Rob
Rob,
That is a good analogy and a good question.
Wally
Rob;
Thanks but no thanks. My bad: David said” I’m just commenting and asking questions.” I should not have used the word little–that is absolutely not what I meant to say. I ask forgiveness of the readers of this blog for using the word little.
Let me rephrase:
David please just keep commenting and asking your questions.
I’m sure the crusade to remove _____________ from the SBC will continue.
What a divisive place to be.
Tom -
So sad – you want to ask questions, but don’t desire to answer a few yourself. Why should anyone then answer your questions?
I find your “little” statement as purely a Freudian slip via keyboard. If that is what you really believe, why apologize? Condescension in public is a lot more honest. The only person you have to deal with in private then is yourself as to if your openly stated values equals your inner state of values. However, for myself, I do acknowledge your desire to be forgiven on this issue, and do so unequivocally.
Every organization that contains humans in it will have conflict. It is inevitable. The SBC is like a lot of families – fractious, prone to “blowing out of proportion” issues and the like. A loosely knit confederation of autonomous churches is not at all times a harmonious group. What we do need the people in both our churches and fellow believers all to pray for and with us. Do you encourage our unity – or you just happy that the squabble continues? Your statements and questions here and elsewhere tend to infer the latter – but I will be happy to be wrong.
Rob
Rob:
Your long response to me proves why it is impossible to Blog and not have constant disagreements.
I type one word wrong and you immediately jump into attack mode and say to me:
” will ask several questions of you as well (and I hope that you do not believe that I am asking “little” questions okay?) Is it profitable to fellowship and work together with Christians who believe that it is okay to allow women to “make a choice” to eliminate the unborn? Can we fellowship with those who zealously promoted and voted for a politician who did not have one squeamish while they supported partial birth abortion and voted against allowing infants to live who survived their abortions? Should we just knock the dust off our feet and walk away from these “Christians”? Is “life” a tertiary issue? Are any of these questions “little” in your opinion?”
I give you an A++++ for your sarcasm.
It is ok for people like David to stir up trouble, but if I dare question them it is me that is causing the disunity. I give up trying to blog with some and maybe you are one of them. I assure you I am for unity and I am for life.
But I hope you feel better after attacking me about abortion. You are truly a fine fellow.
You have learned the art of attack well, but I’m not going to play your game.
Have a good life.
Tom,
Thank you – I intend to have a good life in God’s grace. I pray the same for you.
You are the one who suggested that the asking of questions was being divisive. If you can’t take it then don’t deal it.
If my “attack” is groundless, then why be offended? If you are for life and against those who promote it and vote for it, and yourself voted candidates who promote life (specifically to remove the scourge of abortion) then the questions are then irrelevant and I am all washed up. Right? I asked for your view on things, and your response is not to answer me but to call my questions an “attack” and leave in a huff. “The guilty flee when no one pursues.” Qui tacet consentire videtur.
I am not any more fine than your being a condescending fellow who can’t take what he dishes out – who plays the game, but comes against someone who can play as well, and then quits – takes his ball with him and goes home. Does beating up who you consider intellectual lightweights “fun”? But then again, how is it that I am being “divisive” by just merely asking questions in a calm, gentle manner?
I am sorry John for interfering in your post, and staying a bit off topic.
Rob
Rob:
You said to me”Thank you – I intend to have a good life in God’s grace. I pray the same for you.”
This we can agree upon.