Comments on: My Pilgrimage http://sbcimpact.org/2009/01/06/my-pilgrimage/ life :: theology :: church :: ministry :: missions :: worship Tue, 06 Dec 2011 17:40:05 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Adam Hoffman http://sbcimpact.org/2009/01/06/my-pilgrimage/#comment-9010 Adam Hoffman Fri, 16 Jan 2009 06:33:27 +0000 http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=1966#comment-9010 WOW, I think this is a great discussion on the issues of what seems to be an insider movement strategy and people's opinion of the contextualization of the one true gospel outside of a Western / "Christian" worldview. I'd love to hear more stories and share your insights with others. Thanks for your post. WOW,

I think this is a great discussion on the issues of what seems to be an insider movement strategy and people’s opinion of the contextualization of the one true gospel outside of a Western / “Christian” worldview. I’d love to hear more stories and share your insights with others. Thanks for your post.

]]> By: From the Middle East http://sbcimpact.org/2009/01/06/my-pilgrimage/#comment-9009 From the Middle East Sat, 10 Jan 2009 22:16:45 +0000 http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=1966#comment-9009 All, The following comment seems appropriate to add in this thread: Some Muslim background believers (MBBs) I have encountered overseas really appreciate a high-level of contextualization and some do not like it and there are many who are comfortable with some terminology and not with other terminology. I hope that is clear to everyone… just as we have style and language discussions here in the States, they deal with the same issues… especially as they are forming indigenous communities. Some choose to adopt more cultural forms than others. Some choose to continue using more Islamic terminology (with new meaning) than others. Typically it is those who come to faith in an area where an indigenous community has been established for a long time that prefer less contextualized forms and language and those who are in nearly 100% Muslim contexts tend to continue with the old forms and language (filling it with new meaning) as it is what speaks most deeply to them. Context is key! I shared much of my “style” of proclaiming the Kingdom with one pastor (actually the leader of a house church network in his country) in a 99.9% Muslim context… he got really excited and said, “You actually understand us! That is exactly the kind of stuff that I do with my Muslim friends… they don’t understand the concepts I read about in commentaries, so I have to explain them in the language they do understand." God’s peace to all, From the Middle East All,

The following comment seems appropriate to add in this thread:

Some Muslim background believers (MBBs) I have encountered overseas really appreciate a high-level of contextualization and some do not like it and there are many who are comfortable with some terminology and not with other terminology. I hope that is clear to everyone… just as we have style and language discussions here in the States, they deal with the same issues… especially as they are forming indigenous communities. Some choose to adopt more cultural forms than others. Some choose to continue using more Islamic terminology (with new meaning) than others. Typically it is those who come to faith in an area where an indigenous community has been established for a long time that prefer less contextualized forms and language and those who are in nearly 100% Muslim contexts tend to continue with the old forms and language (filling it with new meaning) as it is what speaks most deeply to them. Context is key!

I shared much of my “style” of proclaiming the Kingdom with one pastor (actually the leader of a house church network in his country) in a 99.9% Muslim context… he got really excited and said, “You actually understand us! That is exactly the kind of stuff that I do with my Muslim friends… they don’t understand the concepts I read about in commentaries, so I have to explain them in the language they do understand.”

God’s peace to all,
From the Middle East

]]> By: From the Middle East http://sbcimpact.org/2009/01/06/my-pilgrimage/#comment-9008 From the Middle East Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:58:14 +0000 http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=1966#comment-9008 Brother Terry, I would like to affirm you in your service to Muslims. Thank you for sharing your experiences with us... they are quite encouraging! My prayer is that the Spirit use both of us to plant many seeds, water many and harvest many during the remainder of our respective lifetimes... even if we do use slightly different methodology by the leading of the Spirit. Peace to you brother, From the Middle East Brother Terry,

I would like to affirm you in your service to Muslims. Thank you for sharing your experiences with us… they are quite encouraging! My prayer is that the Spirit use both of us to plant many seeds, water many and harvest many during the remainder of our respective lifetimes… even if we do use slightly different methodology by the leading of the Spirit.

Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East

]]> By: Terry Wilder http://sbcimpact.org/2009/01/06/my-pilgrimage/#comment-9007 Terry Wilder Sat, 10 Jan 2009 19:58:29 +0000 http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=1966#comment-9007 God has granted me the privilege of sharing the gospel with Muslims both in the US and in the Middle East, even with imams teaching Islam in Muslim universities. And, my experience has been, even at threat of my life, that the direct preaching/teaching of the gospel using biblical terms works best [I've never had an experience like the humorous one described in comment #88]. I'm not saying that you don't need to work with people and that biblical terms don't need to be unpacked for the hearers - because they do - but I've never had to do so using the language of Islam to describe the gospel. If anything, when explaining the gospel in this different cultural context, I try to draw clear contrasts between the gospel and the beliefs of Muslims, rather than seeking common ground so much [because I don't want a misunderstanding]. One such contrast is that when 'grace' is explained [especially in contrast to works in their belief system], it often piques their interest and is attractive to some. Others get upset because they have understood; still others will never understand no matter what. God has granted me the privilege of sharing the gospel with Muslims both in the US and in the Middle East, even with imams teaching Islam in Muslim universities. And, my experience has been, even at threat of my life, that the direct preaching/teaching of the gospel using biblical terms works best [I've never had an experience like the humorous one described in comment #88]. I’m not saying that you don’t need to work with people and that biblical terms don’t need to be unpacked for the hearers – because they do – but I’ve never had to do so using the language of Islam to describe the gospel. If anything, when explaining the gospel in this different cultural context, I try to draw clear contrasts between the gospel and the beliefs of Muslims, rather than seeking common ground so much [because I don't want a misunderstanding]. One such contrast is that when ‘grace’ is explained [especially in contrast to works in their belief system], it often piques their interest and is attractive to some. Others get upset because they have understood; still others will never understand no matter what.

]]> By: From the Middle East http://sbcimpact.org/2009/01/06/my-pilgrimage/#comment-9006 From the Middle East Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:36:31 +0000 http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=1966#comment-9006 Brother Todd B., Re: 1 & 4: I would say that, again, that this is not a full doctrinal statement and that I am in good company with this testimony. Jesus sometimes freely admitted he is the One, sometimes he refused to answer questions, he often taught with simple object lessons, which, by themselves only explained an aspect or two of the Kingdom, once he even told some folks he was not going somewhere and then went in secret.... I would say that, while all the details of what happened are not perfectly spelled in this testimony, it is more than enough to leave those who have ears to hear asking for more. I would also point out the very simplistic testimonies given by the Samaritan woman, the demoniac at the Gadarenes and the man born blind... who actually said he did not know if Jesus was a sinner, but certainly exalted Christ and his works! Again, the testimony is meant to point to Christ and it does. One thing that I have failed to mention up to this point, my apologies, that may alleviate your concerns in number 1 is that the glaring lack of the Generous Qur'an as one of the books I studied in coming to this conclusion is often bucked by Muslims because they know that Muhammad was not involved at that point. Often they quickly pick up on this and ask if Muhammad was prophesied in the Holy Scriptures and if I have read the Generous Qur'an. Re: 2: Maybe we are using different definitions. What is your understanding of the Kingdom of God? Re: 3: ;^) I appreciate your tone brother and questions brother! Peace to you in the name of King Jesus, From the Middle East Brother Todd B.,

Re: 1 & 4:

I would say that, again, that this is not a full doctrinal statement and that I am in good company with this testimony. Jesus sometimes freely admitted he is the One, sometimes he refused to answer questions, he often taught with simple object lessons, which, by themselves only explained an aspect or two of the Kingdom, once he even told some folks he was not going somewhere and then went in secret…. I would say that, while all the details of what happened are not perfectly spelled in this testimony, it is more than enough to leave those who have ears to hear asking for more. I would also point out the very simplistic testimonies given by the Samaritan woman, the demoniac at the Gadarenes and the man born blind… who actually said he did not know if Jesus was a sinner, but certainly exalted Christ and his works! Again, the testimony is meant to point to Christ and it does.

One thing that I have failed to mention up to this point, my apologies, that may alleviate your concerns in number 1 is that the glaring lack of the Generous Qur’an as one of the books I studied in coming to this conclusion is often bucked by Muslims because they know that Muhammad was not involved at that point. Often they quickly pick up on this and ask if Muhammad was prophesied in the Holy Scriptures and if I have read the Generous Qur’an.

Re: 2:

Maybe we are using different definitions. What is your understanding of the Kingdom of God?

Re: 3:

;^)

I appreciate your tone brother and questions brother!

Peace to you in the name of King Jesus,
From the Middle East

]]> By: Todd B. http://sbcimpact.org/2009/01/06/my-pilgrimage/#comment-9005 Todd B. Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:29:32 +0000 http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=1966#comment-9005 Strider, To show you where I'm coming from, AMEN to your comment #87. I'm going to use your illustration in the future when I defend contextualization and when I prepare my own people for short-term missions. :) Keep contending for the faith!... and Please accept my questions and critiques in the spirit they are offered. Blessings, Todd Strider,

To show you where I’m coming from, AMEN to your comment #87.
I’m going to use your illustration in the future when I defend contextualization and when I prepare my own people for short-term missions. :)

Keep contending for the faith!…
and Please accept my questions and critiques in the spirit they are offered.

Blessings,
Todd

]]> By: Todd B. http://sbcimpact.org/2009/01/06/my-pilgrimage/#comment-9004 Todd B. Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:05:12 +0000 http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=1966#comment-9004 FTME, First, thank you for your cordial responses and your care in explaining your position. I greatly appreciate it. As for my specific critiques and your response, I will stick to the numbers from my intitial critique (#64) and your response (#76) and I will try to see things from an emic persective as a Muslim who has never heard the gospel. Now on to the specifics: (1) Here you acknowledge that at least sometimes, the hearer would assume you had studied Muhammed in your path to Christ. I am refreshed that when you have not established that this is not the case at the outset, you eventually get there. My concern, however, and I know this may seem nit-picky, is that I never want to communicate anything that is potentially misleading, even if only for a short time. You may disagree with me on this, but for the hearer to assume that you came to Christ in the context of Islam or in the process of studying Muhammed is for him to believe something that is not true about you. Certainly, I agree with you that you should exalt Christ from the beginning and need not necessarily begin your presentation with a rejection of Muhammed. However, my issue is that you potentially mislead the hearer, if only for a short time. Since that problem is easily avoided by a slight change in wording and does not hinder your testimony, I would seriously consider changing it at that point. (2) This point was the central critique I had with you and is the same one that is central to Dr. Smith’s critique over at SBCToday. I can see from your detailed explanation, taking for granted that you are indeed understanding your cultural context correctly, that your testimony does include contextually the elements of repentance and faith. However, the central summary statement of gospel remains “the only Prophet that could give us greater understanding of the Kingdom of Allah and true submission to His will was Isa Al-Masih.” Granted that repentance and faith are seen elsewhere in the testimony, this summary still appears grossly inadequate from my Western mind. Even trying to hear it from an emic perspective, I still do not see how coming to a “greater understanding” of the kingdom corresponds to the Christian gospel. Nor does referring to Jesus as the greatest prophet. Jesus may have freed you from this sin you could not get rid of, but he did not do it by helping you understand the kingdom. You’re going to have to unpack this one a lot more form me, brother :) (3) OK, I can accept this. I will offer you a better analogy though. Since I don’t accept Muhammed as a prophet, a better analogy would be “It would be equivalent to a Muslim telling you that true submission to God is ONLY through Moses.” Sorry, I had to have <i>something</i> to critique ;) (4) I understand how I might be a bit jaded from my experience with nominal and postmodern Christianity here in the States. Nevertheless, while your testimony does question the worldview in terms of a shift in allegiance from Muhammed to Isa, I’m still having a hard time seeing how this leads to a Christian conception of Isa. Going back to Acts 17, Paul does contextualize his message, but he does not leave them with something less than the Christian conception of Jesus. He challenged their worldview by presenting Christ not just as they have perceived him but as he is. Some rejected the message, but others wanted to hear him more on the matter. Again, I may be tainted by a lack of full understanding of your context, but as for now, I still don’t see that your pre-evangelism moves the hearer far enough toward the Christian conception of God. Once again, FTME, I appreciate your diligence and effort and I hope you will understand the concerns I and others have and read this as coming from a brother and not an antagonist. Blessings, Todd FTME,
First, thank you for your cordial responses and your care in explaining your position. I greatly appreciate it.
As for my specific critiques and your response, I will stick to the numbers from my intitial critique (#64) and your response (#76) and I will try to see things from an emic persective as a Muslim who has never heard the gospel.

Now on to the specifics:

(1) Here you acknowledge that at least sometimes, the hearer would assume you had studied Muhammed in your path to Christ. I am refreshed that when you have not established that this is not the case at the outset, you eventually get there. My concern, however, and I know this may seem nit-picky, is that I never want to communicate anything that is potentially misleading, even if only for a short time. You may disagree with me on this, but for the hearer to assume that you came to Christ in the context of Islam or in the process of studying Muhammed is for him to believe something that is not true about you.

Certainly, I agree with you that you should exalt Christ from the beginning and need not necessarily begin your presentation with a rejection of Muhammed. However, my issue is that you potentially mislead the hearer, if only for a short time. Since that problem is easily avoided by a slight change in wording and does not hinder your testimony, I would seriously consider changing it at that point.

(2) This point was the central critique I had with you and is the same one that is central to Dr. Smith’s critique over at SBCToday. I can see from your detailed explanation, taking for granted that you are indeed understanding your cultural context correctly, that your testimony does include contextually the elements of repentance and faith. However, the central summary statement of gospel remains “the only Prophet that could give us greater understanding of the Kingdom of Allah and true submission to His will was Isa Al-Masih.”

Granted that repentance and faith are seen elsewhere in the testimony, this summary still appears grossly inadequate from my Western mind. Even trying to hear it from an emic perspective, I still do not see how coming to a “greater understanding” of the kingdom corresponds to the Christian gospel. Nor does referring to Jesus as the greatest prophet.

Jesus may have freed you from this sin you could not get rid of, but he did not do it by helping you understand the kingdom. You’re going to have to unpack this one a lot more form me, brother :)

(3) OK, I can accept this. I will offer you a better analogy though. Since I don’t accept Muhammed as a prophet, a better analogy would be “It would be equivalent to a Muslim telling you that true submission to God is ONLY through Moses.” Sorry, I had to have something to critique ;)

(4) I understand how I might be a bit jaded from my experience with nominal and postmodern Christianity here in the States. Nevertheless, while your testimony does question the worldview in terms of a shift in allegiance from Muhammed to Isa, I’m still having a hard time seeing how this leads to a Christian conception of Isa. Going back to Acts 17, Paul does contextualize his message, but he does not leave them with something less than the Christian conception of Jesus. He challenged their worldview by presenting Christ not just as they have perceived him but as he is. Some rejected the message, but others wanted to hear him more on the matter.

Again, I may be tainted by a lack of full understanding of your context, but as for now, I still don’t see that your pre-evangelism moves the hearer far enough toward the Christian conception of God.

Once again, FTME, I appreciate your diligence and effort and I hope you will understand the concerns I and others have and read this as coming from a brother and not an antagonist.

Blessings,
Todd

]]> By: Strider http://sbcimpact.org/2009/01/06/my-pilgrimage/#comment-9003 Strider Sat, 10 Jan 2009 07:26:51 +0000 http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=1966#comment-9003 Terry, What FTME is saying is that this testimony IS bold proclamation to Muslim ears. I can tell you that in my ministry here in a Muslim country that we have used what you call 'bold' proclamation and the Muslim ears heard nothing. In one humorous event a national evangelist friend of mine went up to an uneducated village man and told him flat out that 'Jesus lived 2000 years ago, died on the cross for your sins, is coming again, repent!' and the villager looked at him and said, 'So, up in the Capitol city how much does meat costs?' Do you want to proclaim for yourself or for your hearers? We must speak the truth in ways they will understand. FTME says that the Holy Spirit has led him to give his testimony in this way. He says that others on his team have prayed about this and agree with him. If someone has a critique that says, 'Hey, I think that this concept would be better stated', or, 'Can we not use this word or idea?' Then FTME and I would be all for listening but what we have seen is a lot of posturing and people who only believe that the Gospel is the Gospel if it is presented in a way that they understand. That has been very frustrating. Terry, What FTME is saying is that this testimony IS bold proclamation to Muslim ears. I can tell you that in my ministry here in a Muslim country that we have used what you call ‘bold’ proclamation and the Muslim ears heard nothing. In one humorous event a national evangelist friend of mine went up to an uneducated village man and told him flat out that ‘Jesus lived 2000 years ago, died on the cross for your sins, is coming again, repent!’ and the villager looked at him and said, ‘So, up in the Capitol city how much does meat costs?’ Do you want to proclaim for yourself or for your hearers? We must speak the truth in ways they will understand. FTME says that the Holy Spirit has led him to give his testimony in this way. He says that others on his team have prayed about this and agree with him. If someone has a critique that says, ‘Hey, I think that this concept would be better stated’, or, ‘Can we not use this word or idea?’ Then FTME and I would be all for listening but what we have seen is a lot of posturing and people who only believe that the Gospel is the Gospel if it is presented in a way that they understand. That has been very frustrating.

]]> By: Terry Wilder http://sbcimpact.org/2009/01/06/my-pilgrimage/#comment-9002 Terry Wilder Sat, 10 Jan 2009 07:08:06 +0000 http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=1966#comment-9002 Throughout the book of Acts, bold direct preaching is the method used to share the gospel [cf. the frequent use of the word parresia and its verb form], and the Spirit of God is always at work, attending to and accompanying such preaching [cf. also John 15:26-27]. These things need to be kept in mind when discussing the contextualization of the gospel message. Throughout the book of Acts, bold direct preaching is the method used to share the gospel [cf. the frequent use of the word parresia and its verb form], and the Spirit of God is always at work, attending to and accompanying such preaching [cf. also John 15:26-27]. These things need to be kept in mind when discussing the contextualization of the gospel message.

]]> By: wesmith http://sbcimpact.org/2009/01/06/my-pilgrimage/#comment-9001 wesmith Sat, 10 Jan 2009 05:28:12 +0000 http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=1966#comment-9001 John Stickley said: Wayne, I don’t mean to sound harsh, but if you take issue with something said on SBC Today, please address the author of the comment there. John, I would if I could but I have been barred from commenting on SBC Today because of using Bible Verse's on Their Blogs. Wayne John Stickley said:

Wayne,

I don’t mean to sound harsh, but if you take issue with something said on SBC Today, please address the author of the comment there.

John,
I would if I could but I have been barred from commenting on SBC Today because of using Bible Verse’s on Their Blogs.
Wayne

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