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Is it Your Fault? Decline in the SBC
Posted by Geoff Baggett in Baptist Life
In this month’s edition of SBC LIFE, the monthly publication of the SBC Executive Committee, Mark Kelly penned a report on excomm initiatives entitled, “Executive Committee Initiatives: Making Excellent Progress at Home and Abroad.” The focus of the article is a report on three ongoing initiatives, Empowering Kingdom Growth, It’s a New Day, and Global Evangelical Relations.
The It’s a New Day initiative focuses upon Biblical stewardship, and comes with a complete line of curriculum and training materials. It even has its own New Testament! The report contains some remarks from Bob Rodgers, the SBC Executive Committee/s Vice president for Cooperative Program and Stewardship, that I found to be a bit … well … interesting.
So, in case you missed the report, I thought I might share some excerpts here and seek your feedback.
In the opening paragraph of the article, Kelly reports (he is not quoting here) that Rodgers said,
One explanation for so many Southern Baptist congregations being plateaued or declining in membership is that the members aren’t being obedient to God’s plan for his stewardship and gifts.
Kelly continues …
Ranging through the Scripture – from Genesis to Acts – Rodgers drew out the biblical principle that everything a Christian has comes from God, Who has given very clear instructions about how His people are to manage the resources He entrusts to them. Failure to obey God’s instructions was always accompanied by God’s punishment, he said.
Then, Kelly provides a direct quote from Rodgers:
“We don’t have very far to go to understand why baptisms in the Southern Baptist Convention decline year on end. It’s simply because the people sitting in the pews … are in bondage to debt, and because of it they have a hard time going out and sharing God’s Word or doing the ministry called them to do.”
I suppose I’m a bit confused. Just last week I read in an Open Letter to all Pastors of Churches in the SBC from E. Scott Hart that the decline of the SBC is (as an SBC pastor) MY fault. And not only that … I am also responsible for abortion, homosexuality, and materialism … because I have somehow failed to preach the full gospel message.
And now I read Bro. Rodgers say that it is actually the fault of the people in the pews. The reason the SBC is in decline is because the people are not managing their money properly and giving biblically.
What do you think? Who is right? Is it the pastors’ fault? Or is it something else altogether?
I have my thoughts, but I am most interested in hearing yours.
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Brother Geoff,
I do not know why the SBC is in decline. But you touched on whether uninvolved members are the fault of the laity or clergy. How about both? While this is certainly a generalization and does not go for all clergy or laity, I have noticed issues on both sides…
Laity puts too much responsibility on paid clergy. “That’s what we pay the preacher for,” is not an uncommon phrase. Laity feels the “senior pastor” is some kind of CEO and they are the board. They are looking for results and think he is guy most qualified to get them. If he does not get the results they want, they look for someone else that can get the job done.
On the other hand, clergy buys into this. Rather than allowing some things to not happen if laity does not drive it, clergy works to burnout on everything. While clergy should certainly lead by example, they should also remember their role as equippers. But this is very difficult to implement as it feels good to be needed and it’s just plain hard to get those folks to act right!
Again, this does not apply to all, but I am in contact with a number of pastors from local congregations (not just baptist) and this syncretistic view seems to be rampant.
Apologies for getting slightly off-topic, but it does seems this is a pervasive illness that could certainly be contributing to the decline in the SBC.
Peace to you my brother,
From the Middle East
Hmmph. My immediate thought, though not really a direct answer to your question, is that I have hardly ever met anyone in the SBC, including pastors, who have given serious thought to what a biblical doctrine of giving really is. Instead, they simply parrot the line they have been taught, and the horribly inappropriate and much-abused scriptural proof-texts that go along with it. Over and over again, discussing the subject with someone in any detail at all has revealed more of a willingness to just say the same thing everyone else says, rather than engage the text for one’s self and see what it says.
Perhaps a big part of the problem in the SBC is this incredible and widespread tendency on the part of many pastors and many in the pews to simply parrot other people’s thinking rather than do their own.
It is a heart problem. Worldliness has entered into our churches. When the music, dress and values are of this world, love for God, and a sense of duty grows cold.
We need a Heaven-sent, Holy Ghost, Old time Revival in the Baptist churches across America. I call for fasting and prayer.
FTME,
You mention a good point. Perhaps it is our structure that “hamstrings” the work. I so many SB churches the people serve on committees as administers and the paid staff are expected to do the ministry. But in a healthy church, the pastors are the administers/equippers and the people do the ministry.
That may be a HUGE contributing factor to any decline.
Good thoughts,
Geoff
Savage Baptist,
Interesting thoughts. Perhaps original thoughts are a bit hard to come by these days.
Dr. Foltz,
A true revival would be awesome. Meanwhile, I’d just like to see some solid discipleship and high expectations for ministry in our churches.
Brother Geoff,
Discipleship results from revival.
Anything done in the energy of the flesh PROFITS NOTHING.
Evangelism is an result of Revival, as is all Christian service.
Our only hope is a Revival for Christians, and a Spiritual Awakening for the lost.
Higher expectations/ Only a vision given by God as a result of Revival would suffice.
The biggest problem I see is that we’re more worried about the condition of the Southern Baptist Convention than we are about the condition of the kingdom of Christ. Secondly, we’re more worried about finding someone to blame for the decline in baptisms than we are in our personal walk with Jesus Christ.
We need to get our focus on local churches doing what local churches are supposed to do and quit trying to make these broadbrush, ignorant statements about the convention as a whole which may or may not apply to any given church. Every church is different. Every pastor is different. They all need help. If the SBC could quit trying to BE a church and start being a HELP to churches, we’d all be a lot better off.
So there’s MY hypocritical effort to “find the blame”, in other words, I think just as much fault lies with SBC leadership as does with “the churches” or “the pastors”.
In other words, we’re all fallen people redeemed by the King, and we need to start helping each other instead of just criticizing from afar. Even when we disagree.
Why are SB churches in decline?
You should talk to nonmembers and ex-members and see what they have to say. As for myself, I have been around SBs all my life and would never join their congregations. Responsibility for my lack of attendance and the general decline, I think, lays with two problems apart from personal decision: 1) hell fire and brimstone pastors that value the rigid adherence to sets of abstract principles more than the wise discernment of a living faith and 2) and members that are happy to go along in their faith circle without ever engaging nonbelievers (apart from condemning them). In some ways, as I’ve said to my father in law who is a SB pastor in Tennessee, SB churches are better at creating disciples of Reagan era economic and moral policies than those espoused by Jesus the Christ.
Maybe, just maybe, there is a great winnowing going on.
John 6:66 is still in my Bible, as is 1 Timothy 4:1 and 2 Timothy 3:1-5.
Sometimes God builds his church AND decreases the numbers.
Bernard,
I could not agree with you more! I, too, am tired of the “broad strokes” of criticism from afar – whether they come from other pastors or convention leaders. Everyone needs to buckle down and focus on discipling and growing their own local churches. Indeed, entities beyond the local church need to stop trying to be churches. Well said.
Jacob,
Wow … as someone lookin in from the outside, your words are indicting. But I do think your view is a bit distorted. Not all of us fit into your stereotype.
BTW … how did you find your way to our site?
Jerry,
Good insight and interesting point. I know that in my own local church, growth has come after a season of winnowing. It seems to be part of a natural cycle of growth.
Thanks for joining our conversation …
Yes, it’s my fault.
Taran,
Why, exactly, is it your fault?
Guess I’ll put my oar in.
It seems to me that when we start playing the blame game we begin to miss the point. Does it really matter so much whose fault this decline is? Or would it be more appropriate for us to begin concentrating on our own part of kingdom work and stop pointing out that someone else is more to blame than I am?
Here’s a thought: let’s solve the age-old problem of the number of angels that can dance on a pinhead. (Sorry about the sarcasm.)
We’ve identified the problem (plateaued and declining churches), now let’s quit looking to blame each other and get about the business of kingdom-building.
Benjie,
Good word. I tend to think our conversation is focused upon the wrong subject … a covnvention. We need to be focusing upon our local churches. As soon as they become healthy, start reproducing, and cease dying, so will our affiliations beyond the local church.
Somehow we need to get back to a place where conventions exist to resource and equip the churches, not vice-versa.
Brother Shuford,
Christ’s Kingdom is just fine. Everything is moving according to God’s Eternal Purpose and decree. ONE DAY HE WILL SET UP A VISIBLE KINGDOM, BUT UNTIL THEN, ALL IS HAPPENING ACCORDING TO GOD’S PREDETERMINED PROGRAM.
Is it just Southern Baptist churches that are declining in membership or are all denominations seeing the same trend?
It frustrates me to read articles like the one referred to above. I too agree that SBC’ers are way too busy looking at reasons for declining numbers. I think that this is in large part due to our love of numbers. When something a person (or church) loves so much begins to disappear then one will do all he/she can do to find out why its vanishing. If a church built on prosperity gospel begins to struggle financially then that church will too begin to lament the loss of its first love and look to place blame.
The reason we start to cry over numbers and look for persons to blame is because we LOVE numbers! We say we love numbers because we love the Savior and thus want more (numbers) to come to Him, but let’s be honest…pastors and convention leaders love numbers and would much more quickly choose a congregation of 1000 shallow pew-sitters over a congregation of 100 deep and mature believers who have a heart to change the world. I believe that God gives and takes away from the church. He refines and winnows. Sometimes, just maybe, he will tear away the things we love so that we will get back to our first love: Christ!
AK,
There is no doubt that most denominations are seeing the same trend. Christianity, overall, is in a negative growth mode (i.e. decline) in North America. It is growing worldwide, but most of the growth is in 2/3 world countries.
I think we, as SB’s, have always thought ourselves immune to such a trend. But now we’re getting older and losing 2/3 of our kids from the church between ages 18 and 22. The math is really quite simple.
But just because everyone else seems to be in decline, we must not resign ourselves to the same outcome. But I submit we do not change the trend as a convention … but as individual local churches.
Steve,
A most excellent word!
Surely our love of statistics and numbers is part of our problem. Like you, I abhor the deference to things simply because they are bigger.
I led the planting of a church in 2002. We are in a small, rural community. We have about 160 members, and maybe 250 or so on Sundays. I have invested my life here … for better or for worse.
Perhaps part of the problem in SBC life is our low view of the covenant relationship between churches and pastors. We seem to be “divorcing” on a regular basis. Churches in the SBC swap pastors quicker and pastors swap churches quicker than Hollywood celebrities change spouses. Could, perhaps, that be part of the problem?
I have committed my entire ministry life to this local church. My church has committed the same to me. Perhaps genuine convenant relationships would be part of our transformation.
Just thinking … this may even be the foundation for another post …
It is my observation in my corner of the world that people are looking for authentic biblical community. Some may or may not know how to find that or be used of the Spirit to create the setting for the empowerment of the Spirit. But they desire it and have sense enough to know that another program isn’t the way.
I am thankful that I do not know one single pastor described in Hart’s post. Not one. Are they perfect? No. But everyone I know is the antithesis of his description.
Ted,
Agreed … people are looking for genuine community. But so often the community they seek does not fit our definition of church. Sometimes the very way we do church squelches authentic community.
Case in point – the monthly business meeting.
Geoff,
I’m an outsider that is strongly interested in engaging those that I differ from. I believe whole heartedly that we can learn even from those that we disagree with. Recall that Jesus hung out with tax collectors, prostitutes and he drank wine–activities and people that most contemporary SBs would probably never engage in, which is too bad and their loss.
Yes, my words, like words more generally, over generalize and cannot account for all those particulars.
I’ve had this site on my google reader for some time now. Like I said, engagement is important to me–even with those that I disagree with.
Best,
Jacob
Geoff,
I agree with you in that changing the trend is more realistically done at a local level. My experience is that nonbelievers are not seeking out a Southern Baptist church any more than they are seeking out a Methodist church or Presbyterian church to save them. The church they end up at will be the one that can authentically show them what Jesus looks like and that ability comes from the Holy Spirit, not a convention.
– AK
Jacob,
Thanks for the response, my brother. Your input is welcome here. I think you’ll find that we have more areas of agreement than those of disagreement.
It is always helpful for those of us in SBC churches to have input from people outside our little, myopic world.
So … all that to say … thanks for applying a little of your sharpening iron to ours. Hopefully, on occasion, we can do the same for you.
Keep callin’ ‘em like you see ‘em.
Geoff,
I agree that your thoughts on churches and pastors “divorcing” may be the subject of another post, but I do think numbers may be at the heart of some of those divorces. Our church just planted in April of ’07 and we are very small numerically right now, but growing in ways that cannot be summed up in the “annual church profile.” I too have pledged myself to this congregation for the rest of my life if the Lord wills. But event recently I had a member say to me that he was already bemoaning the day when we got bigger and I was “called” away to an even bigger church. The assumption in his mind and in the minds of many people in our denomination is that success equals numbers. If a pastor succeeds in a small venue and grows a rural church to a respectable number, then he is entitled and even expected to “move up” to a bigger church in a bigger area. That is a model of leadership and success based on the business world instead of God’s Word. I recently heard a young pastor refer to himself as “up and coming,” and it really frustrates me to see him and others use their ministry positions as a series of rungs on a ladder to top of their SBC Tower of Babel.
Steve,
Your sentiments echo mine. All I can recommend is that you state very clearly your intentions to your people. I remind my church periodically that I am committed to them for life … that I have no desire to go anywhere else. I communicate the same in every “New Members” seminar that I conduct. I want incoming people to understand my commitment to the church.
I approach my ministry as family, not as career. I host a small group in my own home. I go early to the youth ministry meeting on Wednesdays to play cornhole (an awesome game) with several of the students, I play poker with some of the guys on the weekends, hunt and fish with others, play music with others. This is my family!
Feel the freedom to remove yourself from the SB pastor ladder-climbing club, and make sure your people know it.
BTW … where are you and where is your church? Maybe we can get together sometime…
Large numbers is not a sign of Spirituality, neither is a small number.
When a congregation is sold out to the lord, obeying His commands, living obedient, holy, separated lives unto the Lord, the numbers will come.
But I define success in a local assembly, to God’s blessings upon the people because of their faithfulness and obedience to The Lord.
Obedience always comes first with the Lord. It is a prequisite to His blessing.
Dr. Foltz,
Good point about the numbers. There is no number, large or small, which is a “default” indicator of spirituality. Little churches can be (and often-times are) as unhealthy as big ones.
But I need you to clarify your views on equating success to God’s blessings. What, exactly, are you talking about in this case? How do you define, “blessing?”
Bro. Baggett,
When a congregation has God’s presence and love permeating their services, it is His blessing upon them.
I have sensed his presence and it is precious.
OK … good. I was just making sure you weren’t referring to things material, i.e. the prosperity thing.
Geoff, our church is in Harbins, Georgia which is just a community of Dacula, GA outside of Atlanta. http://www.harbinschurch.org
Ahh … you are one of Roger’s friends, eh?
Watch out for that guy.
In the three years that I’ve been blogging, the various ills of the SBC have been assigned to : bloggers, young pastors, the old guard, reformed doctrine, easy alter calls, Paige Patterson, Wade Burleson, beer drinkers, mega-churches, and small churches.
I think your post title says it all: since it can’t be MY fault, it must be YOUR fault.
Human nature is to blame. We in the SBC are as good at it as anyone else.
Maybe we should take Taran up on his offer: it’s all his fault. It won’t change anything, but it’s a cool slogan: BLAME TARAN: it’s his fault!
Bowden,
The old addage comes to mind, “When you point your finger at someone, there’s three fingers pointing back at you.”
But we do love our blame game, don’t we?
Now … where’s your Gravatar?!!
Questions for All:
What if it’s not the Pastors Fault?
What if it’s not the SBC Leaderships Fault?
What if it’s not the general memberships Fault?
What if it’s Gods Fault?
After all, it is the Holy Spirit who directs the efforts of His Church. It is the Holy Spirit that illuminates the understanding, calls, and effects regeneration in the lost. It is the Holy Spirit who adds daily to the Church those who should be saved.
What if it’s Gods Fault?
Grace Always,
Maybe Taran is God’s internet nickname…hence no gravatar! Something to think about…
Greg,
Now, there you go with that sovereignty of God thing …
What about the mentality that since there’s a falling away prophesied, the true church is the one that’s declining. In other words, the “righter” that we are, the fewer people we’ll have. So, if we’re running people off, we must be right. If they were being attracted to us, that would mean we were wrong.
It has a very Biblical basis.
I don’t believe it’s right, but it’s an easy thing to fall into.
Geoff,
“Now, there you go again…” I am imagining you saying that in your best Ragan voice
Coming from mature believers this whole “the sky is falling” thing is just sad… (I started to say silly, but no sad is the right word) If the SBC somehow just collapsed, does anyone really think that would be the end of Christianity or even the end of us Baptist?
Anyway, I have enjoyed the article and the comments…
Grace Always
Reagan voice yes, and most definitely with a smile.
I quite think that if the SBC were to fade away, God will do just fine in building His church.
Is the sky falling? I’m not so sure. But I’ll trust in the Lord. I’ll just keep on loving, sharing, teaching, multiplying … Great Commission stuff.
Geoff,
I thought we had to choose between gravitas and gravatar.
Geoff,
Beyond the simple glibness of my remark I was making a reference to G. K. Chesterton’s comment when he was asked by the London Times to write an essay in response to the question: “What’s wrong with the universe?” Instead of a lengthy essay in response, Chesterton turned in a two word reply that said simply: “I am.”
So, I take responsibility for the decline in numbers in the SBC. Accountability has to start somewhere.
Bowden,
I’m pretty sure that gravitas has never been an option for you.
Geoff,
I can’t tell you the reason for the decline, but I can tell you that there is one reason you will NEVER see mentioned in an executive committee report. They will be happy to blame the pews, the pulpits, the powerlessness, prayerlessness, and pettiness of the poeople “out there.” However, I would hazard a guess that they will never say it’s do to partisan politicking in the Executive Committee or that the fault lies with the administration for too much infighting, cat fighting, bickering, and blogging.
OK. They might blame blogging. But they’ll likely do it in a blog.
I’m not saying that’s that cause. I’m just saying that there is one direction you will never see the finger-pointers aim their accusing index digit.
rick
Everybody in the SBC IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ITS DECLINE.
Preachers not preaching, People wanting entertainment instead of the Bible.
The reason for all decline in anything good among both the church world and the secular is because Bernard Shuford continues to wear that TAR HEEL cap with no shame in the presence of both heaven and earth.
cb
I wonder if we should consider whether it is in fact God who is responsible for the decline in the SBC?
Geoff,
I think there’s plenty of blame to go around, but we should realize that a growth rate decline has really been happening since 1950. Ed Stetzer pointed this out on a very informative graph on his blog entry of April 28, 2008:
“As the graph in percent change above demonstrates, our year-to-year growth has been in a constant trended decline, not for one year, but for decades—this is not a one year blip, this is a 50 year trend.”
http://blogs.lifeway.com/blog/edstetzer/2008/04/a-year-is-not-a-trend-decline-1.html#more
Our country is made up of many groups, some more receptive to the gospel than others. In general, however, we can say that our American culture has become less receptive to the gospel since 1950. When I was an IMB missionary in South Korea, I noticed that the Korean culture was less receptive to the gospel than it had been previously. There was nearly 100 years of solid growth, and then the South Korean Protestant percentage of population plateaued at about 19% around 1995. The South Korean Christians were working just as hard at evangelism as they always did, but their culture was less receptive to the gospel due to materialism, postmodernism, etc.
As Luke 10:5-11, Acts 13:51, and Acts 18:6 indicate, we need to focus our evangelistic efforts on receptive groups and individuals as much as possible. David Hesselgrave of Trinity Evangelical Divinity School stated, “Church growth leaders of a previous generation often emphasized the significance of recognizing and reaching receptive people groups. Missionaries and missions supporters of every generation do well to pray, prepare, plan, and proceed in ways that maximize the possibility of finding people whose hearts and minds have been prepared to receive the gospel gratefully and gladly.”
Hesselgrave, Paradigms in Conflict (Grand Rapids: Kregel, 2005), 137.
As Henry Blackaby says, let’s join God where He’s working. This is the receptivity principle in a nutshell.
It may just be God. It is a question we each should ask Him.
A few years ago I was responsible for a prayer retreat. I asked a man for whom I have deep admiration as a scholar, pastor, and man of prayer to be our evening Bible teacher and speak on Spiritual Warfare. For the first three nights he chose as the theme our struggle against the world, the flesh, and the devil. His topic for the last evening was “When God becomes your enemy.” This was not a romp and stomp damnation message. It was an exegesis of biblical truth of what happens to the people of God when the persistently sin against the Holy Spirit of God. One of the judgments of God is that he simply withdraws his manifest presence and leaves his people to their own devices. It was a powerful message leading many to prayer and repentance.
God has nothing to do with deadness. He is LIFE, ITSELF
Like Adam you are blaming God for your own sin. ;;The woman Thou gavest me.”
Dr. Foltz, that’s a pretty serious charge. Is there something about the SBC that demands its life and increase? Can you not imagine that something in God’s plan may actually require the SBC to decline? It is speculation, but to charge someone with blaming God for their sin shouldn’t be made without some knowledge besides a blog post.
I shoulda known CB would pick ME to be the guilty party. Daggone. I thought it was the fault of the Alabamamaniacs. They’re even more SOUTHERN than me.
Hello, CB. You still working with all those “tough situation” kids?
In general, I think Baptist Theologue’s line of reasoning has a good deal of merit here. As Southern Baptists, more than anything, we are experiencing the results of general social and cultural trends in society at large. It would be interesting, though, to know if there are any significant exceptions to this trend of general decline among evangelicals overall. Barna’s “Revolution” book, in which he talks about the increase of house churches, and more informal ways of “doing church,” comes to mind.
I also wonder to what degree greater evangelical involvement in politics may have contributed to the decline. A good part of the unchurched in America, (as well as a lot of our previously churched youth), would quite likely not be attracted toward groups that identify with the “Religious Right.” In any case, though I think we have good reason to be concerned with church decline, I think that it is more important to focus on church health and faithfulness than church growth.
TO BLAME GOD FOR THE DECLINE IS TO HIDE THESE PERTINENT FACTS;
1, The Convention has left its original doctrinal position as found in ;”The Abstract and Principles.
2. Free-Will-ism has been substituted in its place.
3. Decisional Regeneration has replaced Holy Spirit Regeneration.
4. Emotional appeals has replaced Holy Spirit Conviction
5. Lordship, Repentance are little known as necessary for conversion.
6. THERE IS LITTLE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CHURCH MEMBERS AND THE WORLD IN DRESS, PLACES FREQUENTED.
YOU CAN’T BLAME GOD FOR THESE THINGS-
Dr. Folz,
Did you forget the abandonment of the KJV?
Geoff,
Poker with the guys????? With real money?
David
What’s wrong with the SBC? Well, for one thing, many Churches are dead. They’re not filled with the Holy Spirit…for many reasons. But, the basic problem is a heart problem, and there aint no amount of programs and conferences that are gonna fix what ails us. We need a mighty movement of the Lord.
David
Dr. Folz – Just curious if you could expound on your item #2. I think I know what you mean but I would like to hear more. Thanks
Dr. Paul W. Foltz
Comment;
MissionMan ,
Thank you, The abandonment of the AV 1611 should have been on my list.
SINCE WESTCOTT’S AND HORT’S REVISION, AND SUBSTITUTING SPURIOUS GREEK TEXTS IN PLACE OF THE RECEIVED TEXT,[1888] the Wellhausen and Conflate theories haVE been taught in our colleges and seminaries.
EVERY KNOWN REVIVAL AND SPIRITUAL AWAKENING IN THE PAST WAS A PRODUCT OF THE KING JAMES BIBLE BEING FAITHFULLY PREACHED AND TAUGHT.
Dr. Paul,
I agree with many of your points. I would add things like:
1. Being joined at the hip with the Republican party.
2. Non-Christian political activities in the church like 2nd amendment rallies and rallies in favor of certain supreme court nominees.
3. The culture war.
My point was that God uses certain people and groups at certain times and in varying ways. God is not required to honor or use the SBC. We should be thankful for the ways that He does. He may not be done with us yet.
Yikes. Comment overlap. I most definitely do NOT agree with KJVonlyism.
AUTHOR; DR. PAUL W. FOLTZ
COMMENT;
Brother Shuford,
When Adam sinned in Eden, His Will became enslaved to his sin nature.
When it is preached, that man has a free will, to accept or reject Christ, they overlook this fact.
Also John 1;12-13 tells us it is not by the will of man.
Psalm 110;3 tells us God’s people shall be made willing in the day of His power.
Since Man’s will is enslaved to his sin nature, he has to be saved by blood and by power.
Brother David,
I think your first paragraph may nail a large part of the issue of the decline of evangelicalism. In general, we have not followed the biblical model of communicating the same Message to different peoples in ways that are comprehensible to them. And subsequently allowed great freedoms in form. While living in two worlds, Muslim and postmodern, I try to apply (to both) the same principles of understanding someone, then communicating the Good News to them in a comprehensible way. I find it harder to do adapt in my own culture due to my own presuppositions and biases. Mark Driscoll in Seattle would be an amazing example of an exception to this generalization. He works very hard at understanding the Scriptures AND the culture in which he lives.
Brother BT,
There are definitely shifts in receptiveness, but I think we also tend to say that when we are not willing to reconsider our “methods.” I would be curious as to how much difference there was between the methods used 100 years ago in South Korea and today. Do you know?
Peace to both of you in the name of Jesus,
From the Middle East
“EVERY KNOWN REVIVAL AND SPIRITUAL AWAKENING IN THE PAST WAS A PRODUCT OF THE KING JAMES BIBLE BEING FAITHFULLY PREACHED AND TAUGHT.”
I’m fairly certain that’s only true within a VERY limited scope. Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation negates this. Then there’s the book of Acts itself. To say nothing of foreign countries where English is not spoken or read. The church in China, the church in Vietnam…
And don’t get me started on the influence of William Tyndale, without whom there would probably be no KJV, but yet he never read the 1611.
KJV is an English translation of the what we regard as the Canon. It is not the original text. We need to be careful to make that distinction.
I read KJV virtually all the time and it’s my preferred translation, but I know PLENTY of “KJV only” churches that are declining even more than the SBC churches we’re so worried about. “Going back to the real Bible” definitely isn’t the answer to this question.
And I’m basically just as Calvinistic as most of your points espouse. But John Calvin somehow established his theology many years before the KJV 1611…
I also know churches that maintain a VERY high standard regarding dress and places frequented, and they are defintely “plateaued or declining”. I KNOW of little bitty churches who are very dogmatic about the kinds of things you mention, and huge ones that are much more lax.
Asking how to make churches grow and answering it with “make the rules more strict” is an oxymoron, to me.
Again, I agree that most of your list is very accurate with regard to what is correct. However, doing those things is VERY unlikely to increase the number of conversions or the membership rolls. Bringing folks to Christ and discipling them requires a MUCH more intentional process. If we want to grow our churches, the first cottonpicking thing we need to do is get on our stinking knees and pray. The second thing we need to do is get on our stinking knees and pray. Then, get up, look at what God is doing, and join Him in it, praying all the while. When we get too tired to continue, pray ourselves to sleep.
Just to be clear, operating our churches by these rules may or may not be the completely God-ordained way, but even if it is, just doing these things doesn’t make a church grow. There’s a lot of difference in the two.
Brother Shuford,
I meant to say Every Revival in America.
Also, I said earlier, the answer lies in a Revival, and I called for fasting and prayer for it.
Until we have revival, shifting the blame on others is of little or no value.
Bill,
I am instructed to answer not one, according to his folly. Until it is revealed to you by The Spirit, you won’t accept the AV 1611 as God’s Word for us, so I will not argue or debate it, but my dear Brother, may God open your eyes to see it, is my prayer.
MissionMan,
look at my blog
freegracepreacher@blogspot.com
From the Middle East,
I agree with you that receptivity to the gospel waxes and wanes among groups and individuals. In South Korea, the seminary professors in the Baptist Seminary there received their Ph.D. degrees from our seminaries. The President of the Korean Baptist Seminary got his Ph.D. from Mid-America here in Memphis. They know as much as we Americans do about methodology. I proofread a major D.Min. project to be submitted to Southern Seminary for a KBC convention official who was dealing with postmodernism in South Korea. I think they and we are in the same boat right now in terms of receptivity. Generally speaking, the USA and South Korea are both in “middle ground” areas. If a group is very resistant, then no method works. Conversely, if a group is very receptive, then every method seems to work. The middle ground areas are where methodology becomes very important. In the middle, some methods work, and some don’t.
Dr. Foltz,
Can you even read an original, 1611, KJV? I have seen a page of the original one. It’s in old english, and it looks like a foreign language. The KJV you have today is a modern day KJV…modernized to fit the language of today.
Whenever I hear some of these KJV only people, I think about the Roman Catholic Church back in the Dark Ages. You know, where the Catholic Priests wanted to keep the Bible in Latin so that only they could read it? Where the normal, average, everyday person would not be able to read it on their own? That’s how this KJV arguement comes across to me. Because, in our day and time, many, many people would not be able to make heads nor tails out of the KJV. It’s like a foreign language to them. I have had many people to tell me that they just cant understand the “Bible,” and when you probe a little deeper, it’s an inability to understand old, Shakesperean English…not the Bible. So, I recommend that they get a good translation like the ESV, or the NASV, or the New Holman Version.
Dr. Foltz, you really need to reconsider your view on the KJV only. It keeps people from knowing the Word of God. It keeps people in the dark.
Dr. Foltz,
Do you have evidence that the KJV produced every revival in America, or are you just making an assumption? Are you assuming that because the KJV was translated in 1611 and has been popular with at least a certain generation in your lifetime that it has therefore “always” been the Bible of choice for English-speaking Baptists? Did you know that the KJV was written in the venacular of the English upper class, while most Baptists of our first 200 years (+/-) were of the middle and lower classes? Did you know that the KJ “version” we have is not the 1611 translation but a revision of that made in 1779 because the language had changed so much in that 160 or 170 years? Did you know that for as long as it was in print, the translation of choice for Baptists was the so-called “Geneva Bible,” which was translated in the 1500s by Englishmen exiled to Switzerland because England was too dangerous for their beliefs? Did you know that King James I of England authorized the translation which bears his name only because of a marginal note in the Geneva Bible at Exodus 1:19 which affirmed the Egyptian midwives for defying their king (Pharoah) in not letting Hebrew babies die at birth? And if the KJV is so critical, how do you explain revivals in non-English speaking countries? And that doesn’t begin to even touch on your criticism of more recent translations. The “received text” doesn’t mean that it was received straight from God, but only that it was the common text received in Europe through the Catholic Church, which I suspect isn’t very high on your list of favorites. I’ll take a version which (1) speaks as I use English over one that appealed to the high-class and probably homosexual King James any day of the week, and (2) one which is based on the oldest extant manuscripts, some dating to the second and maybe even the first centuries AD rather than one based on a printed text from the 1500s AD by a Catholic scholar who jumped through hoops to get it to agree with the Latin Vulgate so it could be authorized by the Pope.
Please: if we’re going to blame someone/thing for the spiritual condition we are in, we’s at least focus on reality and not cultural baggage.
Dr. John Fariss
To a great extent the current crisis in the SBC can be traced all the way back to the fourth president of the Southern Baptist Seminary; “E.Y. Mullins”.
Mullins was an exceptional communicator by anyone’s standards. Unfortunately for Baptist we have always been swayed by those who have a “silver tongue”, and Mullins Neo-Semi-Pelagian doctrine of “Soul Competency” (although a clear departure from the doctrine of the previous generation of Southern Baptist Theologians and Presidents) found fertile ground in the Baptist Churches of the Old South.
As devastating to the future health of the Convention as the doctrine of “Soul Competency” would prove to be, it pales in comparison to the damage done by Mullins in paving the way among Baptist Churches for the next generation of Neo-Semi-Pelagians who would fully embrace his opinions (Axioms of Religion), including Mullins emphasis upon human experience which ushered in an age of “False Revivals” that continues to this day.
I will stop with the above comments for now… I plan on posting a full article on the legacy of E.Y. Mullins soon.
Grace Always,
Brother BT,
Interesting that they are having the same issues as we do and have received the same education.
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
Greg,
Oh my goodness. Where do we start with that comment? So, I’d take it that you are a Dortian Calvinist who wants the SBC to become five pointers?
lol
David
Brother David,
I thought you knew me… lol
Yes, I am a Calvinist… but the labels are changing so fast now days that I really don’t know what kind of a Calvinist I am from day to day… am I a “Dortian Calvinist” now? No matter, I will ware whatever label you wish to use
David, I have been struggling for so long now for Calvinist to just be allowed a seat at the SBC table (without having to ware the dunce hat) that I really have not even dreamed of the SBC becoming an exclusive five-point denomination. I’ll admit it is a nice dream, (nightmare for you) but I do not think anyone has to worry about that happening.
Grace Always,
David: Is there any merit to Greg’s post? What about the issues he raised?
Bill,
I dont think that Greg is right on this. I dont think that all of our troubles in the SBC started because we left Dortian, five point Calvinism…as if we were at one time Dortian Calvinists. There’s a great case made that the SBC was never completely Dortian, five point Calvinists. As is today, there was a mixture that ran the realm of how Calvinistic a Church, or an individual, Southern Baptist person was.
I really think that the problem we have today is a lack of Bible teaching from the pulpit; and cold, dead hearts in the pews and in the pulpits; and a real, worldly, fleshly, carnal attitude of Christians. But, I really dont think that it has anything to do with how Calvinistic we are, or are not. Just like I dont think that it has to do with the style of music, nor the times we have worship, etc. It has to do with the Churches in America growing cold, losing their first love.
David
Maybe I need to study soul competency further. I can’t see where it is incompatible with Calvinism.
David brings up a Great Point!
“I really think that the problem we have today is a lack of Bible teaching from the pulpit; and cold, dead hearts in the pews and in the pulpits; and a real, worldly, fleshly, carnal attitude of Christians.”
Amen Brother David!
Our problem in the SBC is not the 5-point Calvinist in the pulpit or those who are somewhat less than a 5-pointers… our true problem is “Carnal Christianity” — The End.
Now, we can argue and speculate how we got to this point, until the cows come home, but what we should all be asking is; “Where do we go from here?”
Grace Always,
While there are many valid points above, I think there is a deeper problem among Southern Baptists who genuinely know the Gospel and want to share it but do not have the intellectual resources to engage persons today who have no Christian presuppositions. SB’s are still far too isolated from modernist, not to mention postmodern (however you define it), modes of thought.
For what it’s worth, I did a post on this at my blog: After Existentialism, Light.
I would like to submit something else, related to this situation. What is the way back? Can the SBC move from decline to recovery.
The numbers in the SBC are declining because the SBC is wholly and thoroughly out of touch with the world. The SBC is its own world, its own political entity, its own closed community. It takes stands on things that aren’t worth taking stands on (like boycotting walmart) and seperates itself from any group that believes differently. It will continue to dwindle in numbers until the day that the only people left are the president and his state presidents underneath him, and even then they will be pointing a finger at eachother to cast the blame for why the SBC is the way it is. May the SBC continue to fall and its members continue to find communities of christians that really love Jesus and one another.
Maybe if folks stopped accusing the SBC of things that aren’t true it would help, too.