Some times we act on what we believe, but just as often we believe in something because we ACT on it. In older forms of Christianity we call it liturgy and ritual.

Also, the concise essence of the Scriptural kernel that one must believe to be baptized is contained in the Apostle’s Creed. (Though you suggestion is not bad, people don’t just get to summarize the heart of the faith according to their own minds–that is the prerogative of the holy catholic Church.) The Apostle’s creed is mostly narrative and historical, not doctrinal, and certainly does not delineate an explicitly Trinitarian doctrine.

Salam.

ابو داود

What you said.

Peace to you,
From the Middle East

It seems to me there is a legitimate biblical tension between one-point-in-time soteriology expressed in passages such as John 5:24 – “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he HAS CROSSED OVER from death to life” – and a lifetime process of growth, both in understanding and commitment, in Christian discipleship. It also seems that, in contemporary evangelicalism, we have over-emphasized the “one-point-in-time” aspect to the detriment of the “lifetime process” aspect. I also believe that God sees from a perspective of eternity, having “foreknown” those that are His from before the beginning of time. Thus, the importance of the actual point in time takes on a certain secondary status. I want to be careful here to make clear that I AM NOT saying there is not a clear moment in time when individuals repent of their sin, trust in Jesus, and cross over from death into life. I do believe that. But, when we look at other people’s spiritual pilgrammage, it can sometimes be very difficult to accurately assess this moment. From a NT point of view, it seems like water baptism is about a clear of a marker of this as there is. In general, the baptized were considered to be Christian disciples, and the unbaptized not. Unfortunately, however, 2,000 years of church tradition have blurred the distinction between public profession of faith in Christ and water baptism.

According to the Engel’s scale, there are stages of pre-conversion Christian growth and stages of post-conversion Christian growth. While it is undoubtedly true that only those who actually cross the threshold of “point 0″ (or conversion) on the Engel’s scale have crossed over from death into life, I think we can also affirm that those who are still on some negative point on the scale (a point of pre-conversion growth) are also on the path, in one way or another, of Christian discipleship. And, if indeed, they are among the elect, we will eventually spend eternity with them in heaven.

As far as “the 12″ are concerned, there are many factors that complicate the answer we might give to the question. For example, when were they baptized in water? Was this baptism the equivalent of John’s baptism (Acts 18:25; 19:3-4) or was it authentic Christian baptism? Is it possible they were baptized twice? Was Peter “saved” when he his confession that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God? Or was it when Jesus breathed on him, and said “receive the Holy Spirit”? Or, afterwards, on the Day of Pentecost? It is hard to say. But, I would say that he was already on the path of Christian discipleship before any of these occurrences. When could we legitimately call him a “Christian”? It all depends on your perspective.

I think much of the same could be said in response to the questions posed in your original post, as well as in the subsequent discussion between you and Bart.

I have reread my answer/rationale in #19 and do not think it was ambiguous.

I have reread my answer/rationale in #18 and do not think it was ambiguous. It seems that you understand quite well what I was saying. I would however caution you that there could be a difference between struggle and rejection. A difference that, when applied to this situation, might only be truly known by One who can peer into the soul of a man.

At any rate, it seems you understand the gist of what I was attempting to communicate. Care to take a shot at my questions to you in comment 19?

Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East

I honestly do not know when they “crossed the line,” but neither am I confident this is for me to know. It seems that our role is to serve others by helping them take the next step towards God whether they are in the Kingdom or still considering it from a distance. Regardless of where someone is, I am to proclaim His Kingdom and call others to full obedience to God and full participation in His Kingdom.

How would you answer your question?

His peace be yours in abundance,
From the Middle East

It seems to me that you are providing the rationale for an answer to my question without actually providing the answer. I’m not trying to browbeat you here. It’s just that I and most people who read this thread are going to walk away with some idea about what your answer to my question was. I know that I’ll draw a conclusion about that. I’d rather not conclude in error and have lurking around in my brain a misconception as to your viewpoint.

It seems to me that your #19 is a defense of an unstated “Yes” answer to my #18.

At the risk of butting into yet one more discussion, I offer the following observation (or question) here as well (see my most recent comment on Dave Samples most recent post):

At what point in time did “the 12″ cross the line from being “non-Christians” to being “Christians”? At first thought, this may seem like an anachronistic way to pose the question. But, I believe it is relevant for the present discussion.

Of course, one’s eternal destiny is in the hand of the Father. And I do believe that our doctrinal beliefs do play a role here. But, I also believe that Christian discipleship is a process, and not just a point in time. I believe the Engel’s scale is helpful here, if you are both familiar with that.

What I am saying is that the formula you so neatly and succinctly provided for us on this comment thread:

CHRISTIANITY: The system of belief claiming that the one true God is He who exists in three persons: God the Father; the incarnate, sinless, crucified, dead, buried, and resurrected God the Son (Jesus Christ); and God the Holy Spirit.

is found nowhere, clearly stated as you have, in the Holy Scriptures. I do agree that the concepts are there and that it is a true statement. But as Muslims come to understand more fully who the Creator is and how His nature impacts our lives, I would expect them to search the Scriptures and accept what is revealed therein. Yes, they may struggle with this and that is okay. In my view it would be healthier for them to throw a portion of the Holy Scriptures into a river because they do not understand how two seemingly contradictory concepts can both be true (one essence and three persons… or faith and works) and then come back to accept it later, as opposed to simply accepting another’s creedal statement as true without struggling with the text.

I am curious if you have ever questioned God’s goodness while looking upon evil in the world or how faith and works are both essential in the believer’s life or asked God why He has forsaken you or have you ever denied our all-worthy Creator the surrendering all of your material possessions for the advancement of His Kingdom or surely, at some point in your life, you have questioned how God can be three and yet one? Do you not struggle with God? I know that you do brother. Would you be so kind as to allow our brothers and sisters who come from different backgrounds to do the same – even if their areas of struggle are different than ours?

His peace be yours in abundance,
From the Middle East