Lord, send the old-time power…
I began a quest sometime back to discover a good book to refer to a friend of mine who had cessasionist tendencies. In my internet search for a strong fundamentalist who believed that the sign gifts were still active–I made an amazing discovery. None other than John R. Rice–one of the fundamentalist fathers–had written an amazing work on the power and person of the Holy Spirit. Dr. Rice not only insists on the presence of the gifts but he rallies the church to seek to experience the evangelistic effectiveness that the gifts bring. Early in the book, he quotes Jesus from John 14:12, “He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father”. Read Dr. Rice’s commentary on the text:
“Here is a promise so great that few will believe it. Jesus Himself did all His mighty works in the power of the Holy Spirit. Now He tells the disciples that they may do exactly the same kind of work as He did. He does not make a single exception. He does not say that some of His miracles were too stupendous to be done by the hands of others. He does not say that the raising of the dead or the healing of the sick or the cleansing of the leper or the conversion of the drunkard and the harlot and infidel were too much for these disciples. No, He said plainly, ‘He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also.’ And then He added that they should do even greater works. Here is a startling teaching, but it is true. Jesus promised that the marvels, the power, the wonder of His own ministry might be repeated in the lives of multitudes of all who believed in Him. . . Oh Christian, believe it! God has for you blessings you have never claimed, power you have never used, an enduement you have never sought and found! And lest one should think that this promise was only for the twelve, or only for the Christians of apostolic times, Jesus made the promise clear. It is to him ‘ that believeth on me’ that Jesus promised, ‘The works that I do shall he do also.’ (John R. Rice, The Power of Pentecost, 1949, Sword of the Lord Publishers, pp20-21).
Dr. Rice’s book includes endorsements on the flyleaf by such powerhouses as, Dr. Lee Roberson, Dr. Robert G. Lee, Dr. W.A. Criswell, and Dr. Oswald J. Smith.
Now with that said, I want to share a tool with you that I have taught my church concerning the Holy Spirit. I think that this acronym pretty well covers the work of the Holy Spirit in a believer’s life.
The Holy Spirit is the . . .
S-eal of your Salvation (Ep. 4:30). The Holy Spirit is all the evidence that you need!
P-erfector of your Heart (Jn. 16:8). That why He is the “Holy” Spirit.
I-ntercessor (Rm. 8:26-27). Could there be a better prayer partner?
R-esource (1 Co. 12:7). The Spirit can do through you all that God can do.
I-nspiration (Jn. 16:7). He comforts and revives the downcast.
T-eacher (Jn. 14:26). Need to know something?–Ask Him!
“And in the churches today we might have the same wonderful manifestations of the power of God–the gifts of the Holy spirit to equip men for service, with prophecy and miracles and healings, as promised–if all God’s people were taught to seek God’s face and meet God’s requirements to be filled with the Holy spirit in Bible fashion” (John R. Rice, p175).
I have this book and it is a wonderful book. However, in my opinion you are skewed the words of Dr. Rice. Dr. Rice makes it abundantly clear in his book that he believes the “Power of Pentecost” is the power to witness, he believed the tongues at Pentecost were actual languages, he believed the incidental miracles at Pentecost were not Promised nor repeated, and he believed that there is No Command in the Bible to seek to “Speak in Tongues”.
You may want to also read this article by Dr. Rice to further clarify the issue and his positions… http://www.fbbc.com/messages/rice_tongues.htm
The comment above reflects a common behavior I see in SBC life: we often define ourselves by what we DON’T do/believe rather than what we do and believe. The blog post says to expect God to do stuff, which is consistent with the link above. The blog post says nothing about speaking in tongues. Yet, like some other issues I see in our church’s seminary interns, there are hot button levers that are very easily triggered whether they are relevant to a discussion or not, and speaking in tongues seems to be such an issue here.
Dr. Rice’s statement that we have a hard time believing John 14:12 is, I think, one of the most crucial statements in the entire post. My conversion came through the charismatic movement, so in theory I believe in miracles. However, my profession as an engineer makes me thoroughly skeptical every time I hear a claim that God did something. “When the Son of Man returns will he find faith on the earth?” I have some work to do on this subject.
I recognize and respect the concerns people have about speaking in tongues (prayer in the Spirit). While I believe in this practice, I’ve seen a bunch of flaky people do flaky things with no sense of responsibility or accountability – regardless of their viewpoint on speaking in tongues. On the other hand, while there is no command to seek to speak in tongues, there are two commands in 1 Cor to earnestly desire spiritual gifts, and there is one further command “Do not forbid speaking in tongues.”
For now, let’s focus on Jn 14:12 and see if we can live that one out.
With all due respect A. Scottedward Hodel, my comment is on topic and goes directly to the heart of the thesis of this post. Namely that… “Dr. Rice not only insists on the presence of the gifts but he rallies the church to seek to experience the evangelistic effectiveness that the gifts bring.” I believe this is a mischaracterization of the book and of Dr. Rice’s beliefs concerning the gifts.
Geoff,
Can yall get rid of this spam thing. Sometimes,I cant read the words that I’m supposed to type in…thus, it rejects the message. Then, when I copy and paste it, it tells me that this is a duplicate message.
The last spam word that I was supposed to type…I thought was “11 occur.” I couldnt tell if it was one one, or ll. I typed in 11, or one one. It was wrong.
aaaaaarrrrgh!
AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
I cant get this thing to post my comment. I have tried four times to post it. It does not come thru…..
Geoff,
I’m gonna try one more time, then I will not try again. These are getting thru…the last few comments I have made…but, it will not let my response to Dave come thru. Let’s see if this one works.
David
Dave,
We cessationist do believe in being filled with the Holy Spirit, BTW. We also believe in the gifts of the Spirit. We believe in the annointing of the Spirit’s power to use the gifts.
We just believe that the “sign” gifts, and some others, are not given to Believers anymore…no need for them now that the Church is going and the Word of God is complete.
There is no need for words of knowledge and prophecy anymore….we have God’s Word, and we can ask for wisdom in dealing with matters. God will give us wisdom generously, if we’ll ask.
There is no need for “tongues” anymore, although, I’m personally open to the Lord giving someone that ability in mission settings today. If the Lord wants to “loose” a missionaries tongue, so that he can speak some African language that’s unknown to him in order to reach those Africans….then, of course, the Lord can do whatever He wants to do. Glory to God! But, why the need for sign gifts anymore? The Church is started. The Bible is complete. There are no Apostles anymore. So, even though God can certainly heal, I really dont think that there are any Apostles out there to heal the sick and raise the dead. I wish there were, but there’s not. So, missionaries have to learn foreign languages the hard way. Missionaries have to set up clinics and hospitals in order to heal people the slow way. And, we have to learn God’s will the hard way, too…by studying His Word.
David
PS. The word looks like “of Furman” Let’s see if it works this time.
Finally!!!!!!!!!!1
Halelujah!!!!!!
After 9 times of trying to post it…the tenth time worked!!!!!!!!!!!
Glory, glory, glory!!!!
I may have just spoken in tongues I got so ecstatic!!! :)
Now, watch this comment not get thru.
Unfortunately, I believe there is a lot of mischaracterization that goes on from both directions related to these issues. In my experience, I have known brothers and sisters in Christ who are cessationists, and brothers and sisters in Christ who are full-blown Charismatics, who have each in their personal lives and testimony given abundant evidence of authentic fruit of the Spirit. As Dr. Rice points out, the important thing is the Holy Spirit Himself, and the power and holiness He works in our lives, not so much the individual gifts and manisfestations.
I am a continuationist because my study of Scripture has led me to accept that view. That doesn’t mean that I consider my cessationist brothers and sisters to be any less spiritual than I. Far from it.
My apologies for not being able to interact today on the post. I am attending my state convention here in Colorado and will not be able to read or respond to comments until later in the day.
–Dave
David,
You have my apologies that the “re-Captha” plugin is causing problems for you. I implemented this security feature a while back when we were getting flooded with spam (well over 100 a day), in order to stem the tide a bit. While spam has been reduced, I’m afraid the only thing it’s really done has been to cause problems for our readers.
I’ll remove it for a while and watch spam levels for a couple days. If they stay down, I’ll leave it off.
Sorry for the inconvenience!
John
(Now back to your regularly scheduled programming…)
John,
Thank ye…thank ye….thank ye.
David
John R. Rice and the Sword of the Lord were very influential among many SBC conservatives from the 1930s through the 1980s. Rice died, I think, in 1980.
The Sword of the Lord is very different today than it was in Rice’s day.
Though independent Baptist, Rice was influential among many Southern Baptists. Note his endorsements by W. A. Criswell and R. G. Lee. About the closest thing today, to the old Sword of the Lord, is R. L. Sumner’s Biblical Evangelist (www.biblicalevangelist.org). Subscription is free and it is well worth reading. Sumner used to be Associate Editor with Rice.
By the way, Rice did not exactly fit in with either the cessationist or the continualist mold.
Every Baptist preacher ought to read John R. Rice’s books on The Power of Pentecost; Prayer, Asking and Receiving; and the Charismatic Movement. You may not agree on every point, but you will be blessed and inspired.
David R. Brumbelow
Joe W.: I trust your judgement on Dr. Rice’s views. I’ve been similarly upset by misrepresentation of other pastors’ writing with which I was familiar. Please accept my apology.
David B: Thanks for the book recommendation! For those who are interested, I did a web search for the book. The only source I found was at amazon.com, which refers the reader to several used book sites, and one that has a new copy. There is also a partial preview of the book on googlebooks.
Yours,
Scotte Hodel
Volfan:
Allow me as a brother to “interrogate” you. Don’t be offended by the rapid fire nature of these questions–I am curious and expecting you to have some good responses to these questions. (I am totally anticipating you to surprise me with the answers, because I really don’t know.)
Have you ever been to Africa?
If you are a cessationist, then why are you comfortable with something you don’t believe in happening in Africa?
I have heard people talk about tongues in “mission” settings. Since you mentioned this, do you mean a people who do not have a Bible translation or just haven’t had one printed, or haven’t gotten their copy of it yet?
If it has something to do with their access to a Bible, then what about individuals who speak English, but are in a cultural context where Bibles don’t get read too often?
I have a hard time drawing a distinct line btwn a missionary setting and a non-missionary setting.
Help me out on this.
Together in the Task,
Shane
(a former missionary to Tanzania, East Africa)
To follow up on Shane’s questions:
- Is there a scriptural basis for the view that God does not do anything (e.g., sign gifts) unless there is a need for it? My sense is that much of Christ’s work was based in compassion, not necessity.
- I think a case can be made that the pursuit of miraculous gifts or even dependency on them is a part of the Great Commission. The logic (strengthened by the discussion of Jn. 14:12 above) is thus:
* the GC says “… teaching them everything I have commanded you.”
* when (motivated by compassion) Jesus sent out the disciples in Mt 10, he gave 5 basic commands: 1 to preach (“the Kingdom of heaven is at hand), 4 that involved the miraculous (heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, cast out demons).
* Both of the above passages were written by Matthew, so I often wonder if he had Mt 10 in mind when he wrote Mt 28.
I readily admit that my logic is not airtight.
- Is it reasonable to claim that the miraculous gifts are not “needed” today? Perhaps “needed” is too strong a word, but I think they come close. My own view on this subject is biased by both my history and my current situation: for the next couple of days I will be in a hospital bed with oxygen due to radiation induced pneumonitis, a result of radiation treatment for a lymphoma I’ve been fighting since its diagnosis 8 months ago. These effects are compounded by partial paralysis of my diaphragm so that I’m only using one lung and … you get the picture. Technically speaking, I don’t need the miraculous sign gifts, but that doesn’t mean that they wouldn’t be very useful and encouraging, which takes me back to the discussion of Mt. 10 above.
My ultimate personal outcome is not the issue in the above discussion. My family and I have accepted the reality that I may or may not recover from this cancer. The point of the discussion is that God’s direct involvement in our world through these gifts can be a powerful tool. It’s not a guarantee of evangelistic success – look at all the signs and wonders under Moses ministry! – but it is a reflection of God’s compassion, and I think that’s very relevant to the discussion.
Yours,
Scotte Hodel
p.s. Shane: I have been to S. Africa, but it was only for a week as a youth missionary team chaperone.
While we’re all “piling on” here, I will jump in and add my observation that, if you study Scripture carefully, including Acts 2, you will find that tongues were never used as a means to communicate the Gospel to people who would not otherwise have understood due to a language barrier. That is not the purpose of tongues in the Bible. Look carefully. It is not there. At Pentecost, Peter explained the Gospel to everyone in Greek (or perhaps Hebrew or Aramaic), and they all seem to have understood fine.
Shane,
I’ve never been to Africa.
I am a cessationist. I’m an open cessationists. While
Scotte Hodel,
I am praying for you right now….
.
.
.
I tend to agree with your premise–We are in absolute dependence upon HIS power to accomplish HIS mission. It’s not like we can do it ourselves, so why wouldn’t we expect the “sign” type of miracles along with all the rest. It is the absolute work of God when someone is saved, when someone is brought more into the likeness of Christ, when someone gains freedom from a sin, when someone gains healing from cancer, when a new people group gets exposed to the gospel, when any prayer get answered.
Simply, it is always the supernatural working of God when His kingdom comes on earth in any of its manifestations (salvation, healing, Christlikeness, spiritual freedom, etc).
If it is always supernatural when the kingdom comes, then why should we not expect the occasional “difficult to explain” occurance?
He has hemmed me in. Not the other way around.
On another note–I have recently received healing for an illness that crippled me for 22 months. I was in a walker on bad days and a cane on good days. I had reactive arthritis in every joint and my lungs lost 33% of their function. I had unexplainable (for a while at least) inflammation all over my body. Through a process of God’s handiwork, I am about 90% better. Why am I not 100% healed? Another one of GOd’s mysteries. I don’t mean to imply that God will do this in your life–He is God and we don’t grasp His ways. But I do want to encourage you to know that God CAN do anything He wants and WILL do what will bring glory to His name.
Sometimes, I wonder if my illness will return in its fullness (since God hasn’t fully healed me). It is the pattern of inflammatory illnesses to come and go over a person’s life.
Before God began to heal me, I discovered the pleasure of praising GOd in the pain_: The LORD gives, the LORD takes away, Blessed be the name of the LORD.
Together in the Task,
Shane
Shane,
Forgive the comment above. I hit the wrong button…and well, you can see what happened.
As I said…I’ve never been to Africa. I dont see what that has to do with anything, but no, I have not.
Secondly, I’m an open cessationist. Therefore, while I believe that the sign gifts are not in practice anymore…no more Apostles…I will not say that they could not ever happen. God can do what He wants to. If the Lord wanted to give me the supernatural ability to speak Korean to a Korean man in Memphis, TN, who couldnt speak a lick of English, then I’d be all for the Lord doing that.
Thirdly, I mean anyone that the Lord wanted to speak in tongues. So, if the gift of tongues was still around, then why are all our missionaries working so hard on language study? David Rogers…did you have to learn Spanish?
Scotward,
I believe that the sign gifts…which established the Apostles as God’s representatives…which helped people believe that they had God’s Word…ended with the last Apostle dying. The ability to raise the dead and heal the sick. And, tongues went with it as well. The Bible was completed. The Church was started and going. There was no need for the sign gifts anymore.
Now, does God always do something according to need? The miracles that Jesus were a fulfillment of the OT prophecies concerning the Messiah. These miracles showed the people that Jesus was the Messiah. Now, of course, they were done out of compassion. But, their main purpose was to declare that Jesus really was who He said He was. They showed that He was God.
David, yes, they all understood Peter in their own language. It was a sign that the Lord was doing something spectacular, and they should believe the Gospel. It was a sign to authenticate the Apostles, just as the miracles of Jesus were to authenticate Him as the Messiah.
David
VolFan (easier that way to distinguish you from all the other Davids out there),
Yes, of course, I had to study Spanish. But, as I see it, that’s beside the point. From what I see in the NT, the purpose of tongues was never to help missionaries proclaim the Gospel in a language they had not studied.
David Rogers,
I’m saying that it was a sign gift…to authenticate the Apostles and the message and the Church.
David
Shane – thank you, both for your prayers and for your thoughts.
My wife and I have worked hard to keep a focus on Christ and a positive attitude during this time; it’s been a challenge sometimes, and I admit I’ve broken down and wept from time to time. I am very encouraged to hear of your partial recovery. Thanks for telling your story.
On my end, the dominant lesson taught to me – and one that I have to review every time I have a setback – is Jesus’ question in Mt. Ch 8: “Why are you afraid?”. That and “the magnificat” (although I have no R. Catholic background at all).
I noticed just now that not only does this comment ignore the original post, but it also has links to my own blog. I think that’s a good signal that it’s time for me to stop and spend some time contemplating the discussion we’ve had.
And maybe see if I can get one of Dr. Rice’s books.
VolFan,
Yes, that is indeed at least one of the purposes (1 Cor. 14:22; Heb. 2:4). From my understanding of 1 Cor. 1:4-8, it looks like God will continue to confirm (or authenticate) us as believers in Christ with all spiritual gifts (including “all speaking” and “all knowledge”) until the end, until the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ, as we eagerly wait for His revelation (or appearing).
“I always thank my God for you because of God’s grace given to you in Christ Jesus, that by Him you were made rich in everything—in all speaking and all knowledge as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you, so that you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ. He will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
1 Cor. 1:4-8 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
A. Scottedward Hoel,
I think John R. Rice’s books are still printed by Sword of the Lord Publishers, but they may not deal with Amazon.com and other distributors. So you may have to order directly from them.
While Sword of the Lord has some good material, they are more radical and separatist now than in Rice’s day. Now they are King James Only, but Rice never believed this and even fought against it. Rice’s children have spoken publicly about their concern for the new direction of the Sword. But so far, the Sword is still printing Rice’s books and have not tried to revise them. Rice founded the Sword of the Lord in the 1930s.
For any who wonder, I’m proud to be a part of the Southern Baptist Convention. But I’ve enjoyed hearing and reading good independent Baptist preaching through the years.
David R. Brumbelow
Brother Vol,
How would you treat the speaking of tongues in your church should God choose to manifest that gift in your assembly…. as you have stated above that God could choose to do so even today?
First,… How would you know that is was the manifestation of the Spirit? Second,… How would you treat the situation, and do you think it would be disruptive to worship?
Certainly, the Apostle makes it clear that there are many more profitable gifts for the church,…but how would you actually treat this gift?
Blessings,
Chris
Well, I’m finally able to give some attention to the comments from the post and the issues that have been raised. I again, apologize for not being more timely. I would only say that my attention to the matters of our convention were more pressing.
I’ll begin by responding to the suggestion that I have “skewed” Dr. Rice’s words when in fact I have carefully and directly quoted him. The only commentary that I have added to his words is the following, “Dr. Rice not only insists on the presence of the gifts but he rallies the church to seek to experience the evangelistic effectiveness that the gifts bring.” I would like clarification as to how I have skewed Dr. Rice’s words. It is true that Dr. Rice believes that the ultimate purpose of all gifting is the advancement of the gospel. I share his belief and that is reflected in my one sentence of commentary which includes the words, “evangelistic effectiveness”. I believe that Dr. Rice would scold us for a lack of effective witness and I believe that he would suggest that we bear no fruit because we are not filled with the Holy Spirit. He says, “One could properly say that one who is filled with the Holy Spirit wins souls. One who does not win souls is not filled with the Holy Spirit. And all who win souls in any degree do it by some measure of the power of the Holy Spirit” (p129).
Though, I did not bring up the subject of tongues, I would agree whole-heartedly with Dr. Rice when he says, “A hot heart which is wrong on the question of tongues is not nearly so bad as a cold heart which is right on speaking with tongues, but wrong on the power of the Holy Spirit…To be wrong on speaking with tongues is not nearly so bad as to be wrong on many other things. I think our great danger is not “wild fire” but no fire!”
Note Dr. Rice’s view on the continuation of New Testament gifts, “Let us also make it clear that we retreat no one inch from the position that the whole Bible is the Word of God and everything taught in the Bible can be believed. Let us go even further and say that we believe the promises of the New Testament are for us and the blessings of New Testament times are for Christians in these modern days. I believe that the gifts of the Spirit may still be given as it pleases God. I believe there was a gift of tongues in the Bible times, and there may be gifts of tongues today. We do not see many miracles, but there is nothing in the Bible to indicate that God will never work any miracles in our day. We may not see the manifestation of some of the gifts of the Spirit enumerated in 1 Corinthians, chapter 12. But I verily believe that as the Holy Spirit wills He may still give them, ‘dividing to every man severally as he will’ (1 Cor. 12:11)’”
He continues, “…it is impossible for us to look at that rich cluster of promises that hang by a single stem in Mark 16:16-18, and pluck out what suits us, declaring that the rest of them obtained only for a short time. Such treatment of the Word of God is unworthy the sincere students of the Bible. The ‘gift’ is there, and the ‘gift’ may be here” (p208).
And furthermore, “Is there such a thing as the gift of tongues in the world today? I do not deny it” (p249). “I believe that the gifts of the Spirit are to be given at the discretion of the Holy Spirit as He sees fit. And I for one will not rule them out in any generation until Jesus comes” (p250).
There is a rather long passage on pages 259-260 where Dr. Rice makes the point that God may give an “unbiblical” (not a human language) tongue in response to the prayer of faith. He says, “So He sometimes gives people things simply because they earnestly pray for them. And so, no doubt, God does give people something that satisfies their hearts. He allows them to have an emotional ecstasy and allows them to chatter, though they say nothing that edifies anybody else and though they do not give any avidence of the fullness of the Holy Spirit in soul-winning power” (p260). Finally on this subject, “yet I know that God has given the gift of tongues in the past and may give such a gift in the future as it pleases Him” (p261).
I believe that I can firmly assert, based on his own words, that Dr. John R. Rice was a continualist. Though he defines tongues in a way that is perhaps more narrow than I would define them, the point remains that he believes the gifts (all of the gifts) are still active. May we all experience God’s “wild fire”.
–Dave
Chris,
I would first ask the person, who is speaking something, what they’re doing. Then, if they said speaking in tongues, I’d ask was there anyone there who could understand what he was saying. If not, then I’d ask the guy to please not talk anymore. I Corinthians 14:28: “But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.”
And, if there was an interpreter, and he was saying crazy stuff…then, I’d ask them to both hush up.
Also, if it were a woman doing the tongue speaking, then I’d ask her to please be quiet. 1 Corinthians 14:34…”Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.”
David
Brother David,
I would do the same. I think the Apostle Paul would also agree based upon what he has written to us ……so that the entire church can benefit and mature as Spiritual gifts are manifest among the members of the church.
Would you allow tongues to be spoken in the event that the tongues were interpreted and was edifying to the entire church (not crazy stuff)?
Blessings,
Chris
Brother (David) Volfan,
You said:
Also, if it were a woman doing the tongue speaking, then I’d ask her to please be quiet. 1 Corinthians 14:34…”Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.”
Might I ask if women are allowed to give testimonies, mission presentations or speak with regard to things going on in the Children’s Ministry when the brethren are assembled at your local congregation?
Peace to you my brother,
From the Middle East
dr rice’s books are indeed available at sword of the lord. The ones recommended above are $15 or less each.
Middle East,
Of course women are allowed to sing, share testimonies, or make presentations at my Church. The context of the verse in Corinthians that you and I are quoting has to do with tongue speaking.
If this teaching were followed by Churches, then most, if not all, tongue speaking would stop in Churches. Most of the time, from what I see and hear, it’s women that really get into tongue speaking. Also, in a lot of the charismatic churches that are “tongue speaking,” they are doing it unscripturally, because they have no interpreters at all….it’s just ecstatic utterances gone wild.
Chris,
I really dont believe that ecstatic utterance is true tongue speaking. So, if I thought that it was ecstatic jibberish, then I would also ask them to stop.
David
Brother David (Volfan),
You are referencing the last portion of Chapter 14 in 1 Corinthians. Please note the passage below (emphasis mine):
As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35 If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. (ESV)
It would seem to me that Paul is not only referring to tongues, but to singing, teaching, prophecy, interpreting tongues and even asking questions. Why do you think he is only referring to tongues?
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
At the risk of sticking myself in the middle of someone else’s discussion here, I offer the following observation. Many biblical scholars think there is good reason, contextually and gramatically, for applying the injunction in this passage for women to keep silent in the churches specifically to the judging of prophecies. Just a thought…
I Corinthians 14 also forbids women to speak in tongues. They are to keep silent. they are not to teach nor usurp authority over the man.
Paul W. Foltz DD
From a layman’s perspective the practices recorded in Acts seem to be different. In fact, the text seems to go out of its way to emphasize the involvement of women:
Acts 1: They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus and his brothers.
-> presumably this involved speech in the assembly.
Acts 2: Your sons and daughters will prophesy.
-> speech, presumably in a church setting.
Acts 18: Priscilla and Aquilla (notice the order of the names) taught Apollos the way of God more adequately.
-> both involved in teaching a man.
Acts 21: Philip had 4 unmarried daughters who prophesied.
-> speech, presumably in a church setting
Having been in an academic setting as both an engineering student and faculty member for nearly 30 years, I would suggest that there is a need to temper theory with practice.
Scott, The church in acts 2 were all Jewish people.
THE SIGN GIFTS WERE GIVEN TO Evangelize UNBELIEVING JEWS– I CORINTHIANS 14;22.
All the Bible was written for us, but not all to us.
Genesis 1-11-human race
Genesis1 2-book of John-Israel.
Acts 1-8 -transitional
Acts 12-Philemon-Church
HEBREWS -JAMES-iSRAEL
PWF.
I’m pretty sure that I’m going to regret asking….however as the author of the post I feel a certain obligation. Paul…(in a very gentle caring voice), where did you hear such a teaching? “All the Bible was written for us, but not all to us”? Please share your biblical text for such a statement. While you’re at it…just how do you know to whom each of the books was written? Also, would you then place Acts 12 – Philemon as perhaps more important since it is, according to you, addressed to the church? Please be gentle as I have never been exposed to such a way of thinking in my entire life. Finally, please…..please….tell me that you don’t pastor a church.
I recently memorized Galatians – written to Gentiles. Paul wrote in Chapter 3: “Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?” (emphasis mine).
I Cor 14:22 gives the purpose of two gifts, not all sign gifts. Jews are not mentioned.
I Cor 12 says the gifts of the Spirit are for the common good; this is a much broader purpose than evangelism.
Each of these letters was written to Gentile believers.
The gospels often say that the miracles were done “out of compassion.” Some will claim that miracles were done only to establish that Jesus was God’s son. I object to the word “only.” In the game of chess, each move must accomplish at least two goals. I expect God often practices the same.
I confess that I am frustrated by this conversation, primarily because I think the gap in conversation is not from the texts and their implications, but rather from differing starting assumptions, what the 80′s called a world view.
Consider the question: Do people matter to God? Is compassion and care for spiritual and physical needs a part of his character? In an earlier note I laid out a personal anecdote of why my answer to this question is yes. I’m now home from the hospital, but there is still a need – or at least a significant inconvenience.
Much of the contrary discussion in comments above instead sounds like a Pharisee who condemned Jesus for healing on the Sabbath. There is greater concern that procedure is being violated than there is for practical action, the relief of suffering. I’ve seen such attitudes in management of non-church environments, and the results are abusive there just as they can be here. Jesus responded to such attitudes with “I desire mercy, not sacrifice.”
As a youth Bible study leader, I am committed to the Bible as God’s word. However, when I find people in whom the commitment to the page exceeds our commitment for the people the page was written to aid (Lk 4:18), to the extent that significant portions of scripture are fenced off as “that’s not for you,” then there is a problem. The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
“So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those of the household of faith.”
p.s. to Dave Samples: Thank you very much for this post. The conversation has certainly gone in different directions, but it has been useful for me and, I hope, for you as well.
I was taught that at Bible College, in Hermeneutics. Apparently you have never been taught Dispensational truth.
I am a Pastor, have had 3 churches, taught at a Bible College and in a Seminary.
Check our ”Dispensational truth” by Clarence Larkin.
Paul W. Foltz DD
Dave,
I’m not particularly good at this type of thing, but here goes:
With all gentleness and respect, I feel I need to call you out on the “please tell me you don’t pastor a church” portion of your comment to Paul. I’m hoping you were simply trying to express amazement in a bit of a hyperbolic manner, but if so, it certainly doesn’t come across well… your words look like a personal attack.
Please look back over your comment and consider whether it comes across with the spirit in which you intended it.
Thanks, and God bless.
John,
Yep…”amazement” is a good word to describe my feeling. I do not recall ever coming across the teaching that Paul embraces. My time at Union University and Southwestern Seminary evidently did not include any “Dispensational Truth”. I am somewhat familiar with the concept of different dispensations throughout the course of time but I have never heard anything quite like Paul’s comments. It honestly, does not sound very orthodox to me and thus my amazement and my “tongue-in-cheek” desire that these things are not really being taught somewhere. Consider me naive, I suppose. I don’t understand how the Bible can be written “for us” and not “to us”. All Scripture is inspired of God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness”. ALL SCRIPTURE! Therefore, ALL SCRIPTURE is written “to us” as well as “for us”.
It is not my desire to personally attack anyone and so if my words did that–then, Paul I humbly apologize and ask for your forgiveness. I would very much like to understand where you’re coming from and so I sit at your feet and ask for you to share.
I would ask for biblical clarification and support for the statement, “All the Bible was written for us, but not all to us”. In addition, I would very much like to consider for myself the biblical support for the outline of biblical books that you listed.
–Dave
Brother Paul,
I would like to understand your position on two things with regard to comment #37. It would be beneficial to us non-dispensationalists if you were to expand upon the idea that:
Maybe offering some biblical support for this would be helpful as well.
The other item is your listing of different portions of the Holy Scriptures in #37. It appears this is a way of breaking down who the target audience was/is for each portion. Can you help us to understand why you believe they should be broken down in this way?
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
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