Iron on iron. Good word.

Thanks for responding kindly and in kind.

Regarding Paul’s point: I am dealing with the form/kind of argument not the content. Yes, Paul is dealing with something else. It was an analogy using his form of argument. But, we can leave Paul out of it, at least on that point.

I do not carefully search out every dollar. I cannot. Nonetheless, we cannot push the moral issues away by crying, “Absurdum ad Infinitum!” We sift through what we can sift through. And you raising the issue on your blog allows us all to confront this. So, thanks for braving this.

I’m not trying to boast when I say, I would not take funds for my sons. You’ve stated you would for your daughters. Here we disagree. The temptation is there, since I am certainly in need. But, having money for college education or even having a college education is not requisite for all. I just want to come by it honestly. That is, I cannot in good conscience take the money.

So, we disagree. We are answerable to God alone for our choices. Here Paul is helpful, perhaps. Or maybe, I give too much latitude. I don’t know. Is this meat sacrificed to idols? What’s wrong with it? Eat it! Some can. Some can’t. I am the weaker brother here, I suppose, since I cannot take monies which come from abusing the poor.

Wouldn’t we bear greater witness to the sin/destructiveness of gambling by focusing on the abuse of the poor rather than reducing the issue to whether we feel ok with taking the money or not, which seems a secondary issue.

The greater crime/sin seems, to me, to be the issue that the “idiots” you describe are most generally the poor we are still called to help and have compassion on. Does advocating taking money from “idiots” do this?

By the way, driving home today, in Kentucky, I passed a billboard that stated, “Gambling Can Be Addictive . . . Call . . . for help.” The absolute irony of this reminded me again of our conversations.

I hope you take my comments here and above as iron sharpening iron. I appreciate your candor.

Kelly

And what constitutes gambling? Do the stock market, land speculation, raffles, even McDonalds scratch-off contests fail to stand up under scrutiny when the same principles are applied?

I think these things, including whether or not to accept lottery money for schooling, fall under the category of personal convictions. We will not all agree on them but hopefully each will choose what to do, for the glory of God, guided by the Holy Spirit and personal and biblical convictions.

The passage that you quote addresses “taking advantage” of God’ grace and having no personal accounting of sin … since God forgives everything, anyway. It is addressing the abuse of personal liberty. Using hyperbole, Paul showed that we cannot glorify our own unrighteousness, falsehood, and evil in a misguided effort to “increase” the glory of God.

You are making quite an interpretive leap to apply that principle to those of us parents who will accept scholarships from the state, simply because the funds from those scholarships are unused/unclaimed lottery winnings.

Do you so carefully research the “holiness” of every dollar that you earn, or every dollar that is given to the church, or the origin of any other scholarship offered to your child? What about the fraud, lies, and abuse that abounds in the corporate world … the origin of most scholarship funds?

Just imagine the evil or other abuses that can be wrought by the state when such funds are rejected and unused by the people of God.

No, my brother, it’s not the money itself that is evil, but the use of it. Granted, the lottery does take advantage of the poor and uneducated. No arguments here.

So, let’s take that money and educate people. God can, and does, take what men intend for evil, and uses it for good.

It sounds very much like the kind of argument Paul refutes in Romans 3:5-8

Here’s the form of his argument applied here:

“But if “a fool’s gambling and a State’s greed” serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on “gamblers”? (I speak in a human way.)
By no means! For then how could God judge the world?
But if through “their stupid gambling” God’s truth abounds to his glory (“because of course God providentially led the foolish gambler to win big!), why “are gamblers” still being condemned as a sinner(s)?
And why not do evil (and encourage the stupid tax and let the State be the Bookey) that good may come?–as some people slanderously charge us with saying.

Their condemnation is just. ”

When God makes it clear that we are to take such spoils, then clearly we ought. I’m thinking about the Exodus. But when God clearly condemns taking advantage of the poor and benefiting from the means that destroy them . . . while assuming God’s blessing . . .we really ought to be cautious.

I really doubt the violence, torture and murder of Christ was ever intended, by God, as an analogy for why a sinister racket like the State-lotteries ought to be beneficial to Christians!

States which encourage the lottery take advantage of the poor (those who generally do not make it to college to get educated).

Recent research makes this abundantly clear:
http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/ech/papers/Subjective_Relative_Income.pdf

First of all … they’re not in the same paragraph.

But I think I understand what you’re trying to say.

How can I despise something, yet benefit from the same thing?

Well, I despise going to the dentist … and I have never been a dentist, but I am most grateful of the benefits they provide.

I despise getting shots, and would not want to give one to another person, yet I am most grateful for the benefits they provide.

I guest the most vivid example would be this … I despise violence, torture, and murder. I have never harmed or killed anyone. But I am, most definitely, thankful for the forgiveness and salvation that is provided in the precious blood of Jesus Christ.

What men intend for evil, God can use for good. Yes, foolish people waste and fritter away their money in the lottery in an effort to get rich … and my God is great enough to take those funds and educate Godly young people, such as my daughters.

“And I assure you … the Baggett family will NOT be refusing those scholarship funds. Of that you can be sure.”

I’m not trying to point a finger, I just don’t see how these two statements can be in the same paragraph. What does it mean to despise something and yet benefit from the same thing?

I agree with your post. I think the comment about scholarship money is a very insightful one. (We are challenging our two kids to get as much of that money as they can!)

Tim