;)
A Contract With Southern Baptists – Part 4
Posted by Guest Author in Baptist Life
I began this series back before the SBC convention in June as a “What would I preach to the SBC if invited?” series. I believe that our denomination is in great need of revitalization. This series of posts seeks to answer the question, “What would revitalization in our convention emphasize?” I understand that our denomination is composed of diverse churches and diverse members. To attempt to make broad characterizations is to often miss the target. Nevertheless, this is what I think needs to be emphasized.
Baptists Must Be . . .
Based in Humility – a necessary foundation.
Authorized by Scripture – a necessary standard.
Powered by the Holy Spirit – a necessary energy.
Transformed by Worship – a necessary voice – Deuteronomy 6:13; 1 Chronicles 16:28-29; Nehemiah 8:5-6; Psalm 95:1-7; John 4:21-24; Romans 12:1; Revelation 4:9-11.
We have fallen into grave error by making the act of worship something that is only done on Sunday mornings for our own benefit and enjoyment. Every post I write and every comment I leave is potentially worship. Worship is the way in which I speak, the way in which I live, and the impression that I give. Worship is for God’s pleasure alone and it has little to do with our desires or preferences. We have perhaps at times made the error of looking with contempt upon another’s sacrifice of worship and by so doing have judged ourselves (2 Samuel 6:12-23). It is not simply style or even location–it’s a matter of the heart. It is Spirit and it is Truth. Worship is an expression of love and passion toward the God who saves us. It is delight in the Lord. The voice of worship is a 24/7 call to the nations to exalt the Lord. Worship is all that we do and all that are.
;)
;)
;)
;)
;)
;)
;)
;)
;)
;)
Not to be nitpicky but can we really be transformed by Worship? I understand that you are trying to say that we should be worshipful 24/7 and agree, but our transformation does not come by acting transformed. Our transformation comes from Christ… and when that happens and we are obedient, then we will be worshipful 24/7.
God’s Glory,
Lew
The Pursuit Online Store
Dave,
Great thoughts. I have always said, and believe that worship is a 25/7 practice. It is not a matter of acting at worship, acts of worship.
When we as individuals worship God Monday through Saturday,then on Sunday mornings we will desire to be with brothers and sisters in Christ worshipping and edifying the Lord together; learning and growing in Christ together.
God bless you.
T.A.
Lew,
I think there is definitely something transformational about true worship. Yes, the source of all of our transformation is Jesus Himself. But, our worship is one of the chief means He uses to accomplish this end. I believe this verse speaks to that:
1 Cor. 3:18. “But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.”
Worship has transformed me … and continues to do so.
Lew,
Nitpickiness aside, the worship of God must be transformational. How can one enter the presence of Holy God and not be forever changed by the experience? Numerous biblical examples of transformational worship can be pointed to in the scriptures. I would also want to make sure that your phrase “acting transformed” is in no way ascribed to me. I don’t think that we should “act” anything but rather “be” transformed. In addition to the passage that David directed you to, I would add Romans 12:1-3 for your consideration. Thanks for your feedback and for the opportunity to think this through further.
Tim,
Yes, I agree. I think that we practice our instruments throughout the week so that we can come together and play beautifully as a symphony in corporate worship.
David,
I’m honored to have your thoughts…
I join those who believe worship is transformational, in Christ. Worship has been defined as experiencing the presence of the Lord. If we do not experience His presence we have not worshipped. If we have experienced His presence, we have worshipped and will be forever changed. When Isaiah said he “saw the Lord ” (experienced His presence) in Isaiah 6 he was changed. He immediately saw how sinful he was, understood what a purifying presence God was, and made a commitment to go wherever God would send him. Is that transformational?
I also agree with those who say that worship is transformational. Worship lifts my heart to Heaven, and it helps me to love Jesus more. It softens my heart to God, and it makes me want to learn about Him and serve Him.
David
David,
I believe you meant, 2 Cor. 3:18, which I find odd as a proof for worship, since worship is nowhere mentioned. Also, the context of the verse suggests that Jesus is who does the transformation (whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away).
Dave,
I can understand Romans 12:2 showing an example of something other than Jesus transforming us. Of course, I have been influenced by people, books, and events, all which have been transforming in some way.
All,
I suppose the issue is how we are defining the word “Worship”. I believe true worship comes in the form of obedience to God – 24/7. How can I obey/worship God unless Jesus is transforming me to do so? If my understanding of Godly transformation leaves me transformed only by Jesus, I can accept that.
I suppose in a way, the act of worship could seem transforming to us because it is an event that we link to a change. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that the event is what changed us. In my understanding Jesus is what changes us… the event is the outcome of that change.
God’s Glory,
Lew
Lew,
Yes, it was 2 Cor. 3:18.
Although, as Dave already explained in his original post, worship involves many other things as well, I believe that one of the foundational aspects is our submissive contemplation of the character and glory of God. That is what I believe 2 Cor. 3:18 refers to when it says, “with unveiled face, beholding (or contemplating) as in a mirror the glory of the Lord.”
Also, I don’t think anyone here is saying that it is not Jesus Himself who is ultimately responsible for the positive changes that take place in our lives and character. However, I think it is a false dichotomy to say that this necessarily excludes worship as one of the means through which He effects this transformation.
“…Worship is any activity in which believers experience God in a meaningful, spiritually transforming way. True worship should lead worshipers to a deeper appreciation for God, a better understanding of His ways, and to a deeper commitment to Him. Encountering God in worship transforms us more and more into His likeness” –Gene Mims, Kingdom Principles For Church Growth, p57.
“Worship is communion with God, in which believers by grace center their mind’s attention and their heart’s affection on the Lord, Humbly glorifying God in response to His greatness and His Word.” – Bruce Leafblad, Professor of Church Music and Worship (retired) SWBTS.
Rob
Interesting quotes, very pretty… it reminds me of something Jesus once said, “But in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.” A little out of context though because Jesus was talking about the Pharisees.
There are several words translated as “Worship” in the Bible. Perhaps we should study this subject more carefully and come up with a Biblical definition of Worship, try to differentiate bad translations and good translations, and try to remove ourselves from our current social context.
God’s Glory,
Lew
Lew,
Perhaps you have something in mind?
Dr. Leafblad’s definition is thoroughly Biblical from start to finish. Perhaps if you removed yourself from your current presuppositions, you would see it as well:
1. “Worship is Communion with God” – that is Biblical communion with God – Jesus words to the church of Loadiciea “..if any man hears my voice, I will come in and eat with him, and him with me” (Revelation 3:20. The “Table” is a universal symbol of communion and relationship – it is where we break bread together and know one another. Yet worship is more than a mere relationship – it is communion with God! Jesus goes on to say in that same passage in Revelation, “The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.” Worship is communion with God who sits on His throne – as believers we are invited to sojourn with God with Him on His throne!
2.Worship is an enactment of Faith, by an appropriation of Grace – “For by grace have you been saved through faith, not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast.”
3. Worship is centering our attention upon God. “Here O Israel – the Lord our Lord is ONE!”
4. Worship is expressing our love to God (humbling ourselves) – “I resist the proud, but give grace to the humble” The Psalms were written in a way that centered praise to God. “O Give Thanks to the Lord” (118) “I love the Lord” (116) “Praise the Lord!” (117) are just a few examples.
5. Worship is service-ministry to God – see Romans 12:1
6. Worship is glorifying God (see Psalms)
7. Worship is response to God (see Isaiah 6 “who will go for us? “Here am I Lord, send me”
As to the words used in both NT and OT for “Worship”:
OT: schachah (sahah)- crouch, bow down, humbly beseech, make to stoop, worship (S7812)- see Exodus 34:13
‘atsab – to carve or make, worship. Used in reference to idols, or “worshiping” someone who made something good such as food or craft (S6087) – see Jeremiah 44:19
sharath – to worship
NT: proskneo – kiss, like a dog licking a master’s hand – to postrate, worship – see Matthew 2:2 (S4352)
latreo – a hired servant – to minister to God, render religious homage – see Phillipians 3:3 (S3000)
letourgia – public function as priest or almsgiver – service. see Romans 12:1 (S3009)
So…the translators translated most if not all of these words into the Anglo Saxon “Worth” + “ship” – something that human beings find worth in to have subservience in.
Rob
Lew: I’m wondering how obedience would be worship? I would think that’s more the result of worship. Didn’t Christ say the greatest commandment is to love the Lord God with all our heart, soul, and mind?
David,
I agree, Worship can take the form of many things. All of which are actions that we do. Such as, Worship by song, Worship by dance, Worship by choices, Worship by attitude, and so-on. These are all things that we do, either out of obedience to God or out of obedience to ourselves. But, I firmly believe that we are not capable of transforming ourselves. We need someone to transform us.
How we worship can have an influencing effect on transforming others but not ourselves. If I sing a song to God, I am doing it out of obedience, not because I think it will change me. If I tell the truth, I do it because of the transformation that already occurred within me (by Jesus)… not because I think it will transform me. These things are examples of thing I consider to be Worship. But I do not see how performing our own actions has the effect of transforming us. If the act(s) of Worship transformed us, then we would not need Jesus and Jesus would not have said that the Pharisees were Worshiping in vain.
Perhaps I am missing your point though?
God Speed,
Lew
Rob,
#1,2,3,4 – Although I don’t necessarily disagree with those points, Where is worship mentioned in those verses?
We have a predefined understanding of what Worship is than we look for examples of it in the Bible. Instead of looking at what God says is worship and using that definition. I don’t necessarily disagree with the points, but those texts alone do not define Worship – at the very most some of them give us an example of Worship.
As far as I know, #5 has the only use of the word “Worship” in that list. And it’s use is the use of a servant – i.e. obedience.
Point #6 – Yes, the psalms have numerous examples of Worship, but it doesn’t help in defining the term, unless we want to look at where the word “Worship” is used within the Psalms and try to figure out how they defined the term. i.e. Psalm 2:1, “Worship the LORD with reverence” tells us a way to Worship the Lord… but of course, only out of obedience could you revere the Lord.
Point #7 – Should probably be modified to say that Worship is “positive” response to God, but that leads me back to Worship is Obedience.
Those definitions seem fair to me, except sharath… it doesn’t help us define the word “Worship”
.
Debbie,
I’m sorry, I don’t follow your comment. If we obey God we will love him with all our heart, soul, and mind. Is obedience not Worship then?
God’s Glory,
Lew
Here is an example of what I am talking about.
If I sign praises to God, but God has asked me to dance for Him, have I Worshiped?
If I tell the truth, but God has asked me to remain silent, have I Worshiped?
If I fast with prayer, but God has asked me to eat with sinners, have I Worshiped?
If I sing praises, tell the truth, and fast with prayer, have I transformed myself – in spite of the fact that God has asked me to do something else?
If I obey God, dance for him, remain silent, and eat with sinners, has my obedience transformed me? Doesn’t my obedience merely indicate my transformation?
These are my thoughts on the subject. I hope it helps you understand what I am trying to communicate.
God’s Glory,
Lew
Lew,
How can you know if God has asked you to dance instead of signing praises to Him?
Do you get extra Biblical revelation from God?
Lew, in all sincerity, you sound like one of those super spiritual people, who thinks that he’s far above the normal, everyday, average Christian. You really come across that way. Maybe it’s just the way you write, or maybe it’s just me; but you really sound a lot like the people I have dealt with in the past, who think that they have a direct line to God that nobody else has, or else they think that they have arrived spiritually. And, they’re trying to help all the other Christians to catch up. Am I wrong?
Also, obedience is certainly a form of worship. And, in order to be obedient to God, we must worship Him. But, there’s so much more to worship than just obedience. Worship involves our emotions, and it gets our hearts ready to obey and serve the Lord. It lifts our souls up to Heaven. It draws us closer to God. It gives us the heart that we need to serve the Lord. But, worship is certainly more than just obedience.
David
Thanks everyone for the comments, especially you, Lew. I remain convinced that true worship is a transformational experience.
Blessings!
–Dave
David (Volfan),
You asked, “How can you know if God has asked you to dance instead of signing praises to Him?”
I suppose that comes during the transformation process (a continual thing, no?).
I believe that God still speaks to his children and his children still hear his voice. I can assure you, I do not think that I am super-spiritual. I believe that we all have a direct line to God… I try to encourage people to use that line and I expect others to encourage me to do the same. And by all means, I have not “arrived” spiritually. I’m not going to contend with Paul… but I’m definitely a close second when it comes to Chief Sinners.
I’m trying to understand what you mean by “worship”. You said, “In order to be obedient to God, we must worship Him”. Can you give me a specific example of worshiping God that is not already a response of obedience to God?
Dave,
Thanks.
God’s Glory,
Lew
P.S. sbc IMPACT! I think you should start limiting the number of people named Dave/David on this blog
.
Lew,
I dont believe that God gives us extra Biblical revelation. He has already spoken to us in His Word. So, how do you hear God telling you that you need to dance for Him, instead of singing to Him? Audible voice? Thoughts in your head? Emotions?
Lew, if you will re-read what I wrote before, I said that we worship in obedience to the Lord. To obey God. If we dont worship, then we’re being disobedient. But, obedience is just one way to worship. Singing praises to God is worship. Praying is worship. Giving our money is worship. Playing instruments for God is worship. And yes, I know that all of this is obedience to what the Bible teaches. But, when you say that obedience is worship, it makes it sound like you saying that not lying, or helping the needy is the only kind of worship. The others in here are saying that sincere, heartfelt singing praises to God is worship that God uses to change their lives in some meaningful way.
David
David (Volfan),
Jesus once said, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;” I believe this can be audible, emotional, through dreams, etc. These things should and can be tested, of course.
By the way, how did you know that you were being called to be a pastor, if not by extra-Biblical revelation? Have you prayed that our Father reveal his will for anything in your life (Eph. 5:17)? If so, why? If you know he will not reveal anything. How do you deal with Acts 2, when it says that in the end our sons and daughters will dream dreams and see visions? In the Bible, we see examples of God communicating in many different ways, not just through the Bible. Where in the Bible does it say that God stopped communicating in any way except through the Bible?
This is a bit of a rabbit trail at this point, perhaps this conversation is one we should take off this post?
You said, “it makes it sound like you saying that not lying, or helping the needy is the only kind of worship.”
I’m not sure why you used the word “only” in that sentence. I think in almost every example I gave, I talked about singing or something similar.
It’s fine if you think that God will use your singing a song to transform you. I could be wrong, but I continue to think that singing the song comes from the transformation. Btw, I believe Ephesians 5:18-19 indicates that singing (as well as other melodious things) comes from being filled with the Holy Spirit.
God’s Glory,
Lew
Lew,
I’m an open cessationist, so I guess we’ll have to disagree on this one. I believe that God called me to preach and teach and pastor by giving me a strong desire in my heart to do this. He also gave me the wisdom and understanding in my mind to see that this was what I should do in life. He did not speak to me in an audible voice. I’m not depending on some thought that came into my mind. And, it was not some purely, emotional response. As I was seeking the Lord in my life, He gave me this desire. I obeyed. Thus, I preach and pastor.
Did you know that the Devil could speak out loud to people? even tell them good things with a bad twist? Did you know that the demons can put thoughts into your mind? to get you to stray away from God? to do wild, wierd things that dont glorify God? And, the Devil can appear as an angel of light? he can look good? sound good? And, eating too much white beans and cornbread can give you an emotion, or two? If you’re thinking that emotions should tell you God’s will.
Lew, I know that the Lord is using dreams to reach Muslim people. I used to be the H’mong Pastor at the Church I attended while in Seminary. I preached for the H’mong people every Sunday morning for four years. One of the men in that group was saved as a result of a dream he had. Praise God!
But, God has given us His Word, the Bible, so I get very nervous when people start talking like God has spoken to them in some sort of extra Biblical revelation kind of way. I have heard Pastors say that God told them to get rid of the hymnbooks…to throw them out. Really? And, just how did God tell them that? I had a preacher tell me that God told him all sorts of things about my life and what God was going to do in my life…that was years ago….none of them have come true. I have heard Christians say that God told them that they should marry this girl, or that one, and I thought…really? And, just what verse in the Bible tells you to marry Susie Jo? or, Thelma Lou? Now, if you said that God had given you a love for her in your heart, and you had a strong desire to marry her, and she agrees with this? Then, yea, God’s in it. Go for it. But, for someone to just wake up one morning saying that God told them to marry Mary Sue Johnson, when they havent even been dating Mary Sue Johnson… well….I just cant go along with that kind of extra Biblical revelation, as if God told them something new than what’s already in the Bible.
David
David (volfan),
I’m confused… you suggest that God gave you “a strong desire in your heart” to do something. But, for others you suggest it could be the Devil? Or, you ask for chapter and verse? What chapter and verse did God use in your case?
Similarly, since you are very interested in “chapter and verse”, where does God say that he only speaks to us through Scripture now? I can give many, many passages that demonstrates that God speaks in ways other than Scripture.
And, please do not think that I (or Lew, from reading his comments and talking to him) am suggesting that God does not speak through Scripture. I believe that God speaks through Scripture, and that God will never contradict himself. However, Scripture itself never teaches that God ONLY speaks through Scripture. By the way, it seems that your experience of having God give you “a strong desire in your heart” (without chapter and verse) aligns more with what Lew is saying and what you are saying.
God told Paul to go to Macedonia in a dream (it was not Scripture at that point). Would Paul have been disobedient to God is he had gone somewhere else? How did Paul know it was God’s will if it wasn’t in Scripture?
-Alan
Alan,
There is a huge difference is saying that you feel that God wants this for your life, or that you believe that God wants for you to do that with your life; and saying that God has given you new revelation, for sure, commandment, direct from Heaven knowledge type of thing. I can say that I feel that the Lord wants me to go to another Church that’s interested in me coming to be their Pastor. They can pray about it. My wife and I can pray about it. And, I can pray that the Lord would help to think straight and clear as I look at the Church, the town, the salary, the parsonage, etc. And, the Church can say that they feel that the Lord wants me to be their Pastor. And, my wife and I can say that we believe that the Lord wants us to go. And, I would say that the Lord was in something like that. But, if I said that God told me to go to that Church, as in a direct message from God, then that would be extra Biblical revelation. Would it not?
Now, God told us to ask for wisdom in the book of James, and He would give it.
The Bible teaches that if we delight ourselves in the Lord, that He will give us the desires of our heart in the book of Proverbs.
If you’ll remember, Paul said that wanted to go this way, and that way, and the other, but the doors shut…in the book of Acts. But then, the Lord opened another door for him to be able to go and preach the Gospel and start Churches.
So, in discerning God’s will in matters that are not taught in the Bible, we need to ask for wisdom…delight in the Lord and trust that He’ll give us the desires of our heart, and that He will open the doors for us, when it’s His will.
But, God telling us in an audible voice to go to New Orleans to preach on Bourbon St.; or a thought coming into our minds to sell our houses and cars and give all of our money to the orphanage in Honduras, and us thinking that that must be God telling us that; or you go to a worship service and feel a great emotional feeling to run out in the street and skipping and waving your arms and shouting “Jesus is coming, get ready!” And, you think that it just had to be God telling you to do that, because you felt it so strongly. Well, I dont believe in that kind of extra Biblical revelation. That kind gets into very dangerous ground. It leads to the Kenneth Copeland, Todd Bentley, Benny Hinn type of stuff.
David
David (volfan),
Perhaps I missed something, but where in this comment thread has anyone but yourself used these phrases or this language: “God has given you new revelation, for sure, commandment, direct from Heaven knowledge type of thing”, “God told me to go to that Church, as in a direct message from God”, “God telling us in an audible voice”, or “feel a great emotional feeling to run out in the street and skipping and waving your arms and shouting”? Could it be that you are reading more into what Lew and I are saying?
You still didn’t answer the question about where God says in the Bible that he will only communicate with us through Scripture? Or, is that an extra-biblical revelation?
-Alan
Alan,
Lew said, and I quote, “Jesus once said, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;” I believe this can be audible, emotional, through dreams, etc. These things should and can be tested, of course.”
Maybe you should read the comments more carefully.
Also, Alan, I have given you Scripture above about how God reveals His will for us. I believe that you can get into all kinds of strange and wierd things when you believe that God still speaks to us today in audible voices; or if you believe that God puts thoughts into your mind in a direct revelation type of thing; or if you depend on emotional feelings. I have personally seen many strange, wierd, harmful, hurtful things done because “God told me to do this.”
I would rather stick to the clear Word of God that’s been given to us in a book that’s called the Bible.
David
David (Volfan),
Yes, I read Lew’s comment. I agree completely with what Jesus said in John 10. And, I agree with what Lew said in response. Did you notice, by the way, that Lew said, “These things should and can be tested, of course.” It sounds like Lew has similar concerns as you about “all kinds of strange and wierd things”. So, let’s agree that neither of us are talking about “all kinds of strange and wierd things”.
I’ve also read what you said about God giving us desires and wisdom. I agree with those completely. I also agree completely that God communicates his will and shapes our desires and gives us wisdom through Scripture. I spend most of my time studying Scripture because I believe that Scripture is inspired, inerrant, and authoritative.
I did not respond to those statements that you made because they do not answer my question. My question is, “Where in the Bible does God say that he will only communicate with us through Scripture?” The key word there is “only”.
-Alan
Alan,
Where in Scripture does it teach that God will speak to us in audible voices? by placing thoughts out of the blue into our minds? by emotional feelings?
David
David (volfan),
I’m assuming that you can’t answer my question.
However, I can answer your question. In Scripture we see example after example of God communicating with people through means other than Scripture. Since I believe that Moses wrote the Pentateuch (Gen-Deut), then any communication before that writing was not done through Scripture (i.e. God communicating with Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, among others). There are many more examples in the Old Testament: Joshua, Gideon, Samson, Elijah, Elisha, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc. etc. etc. And, each of these people had Scripture.
You are probably more interested in the times after Jesus death, burial, resurrection, and ascension. So, we have the example of Paul’s conversion in Acts 9 – which was audible, by the way. We have the example of Peter’s dream in Acts 10. We see Paul having a vision of a man from Macedonia in Acts 16.
But, what about for us “regular” Christians who are not apostles? Paul assumes that the Spirit can “reveal” something to someone while they are in a church meeting (Acts 14:30). By the way, this type of revelation/prophecy appears to be distinct from “teaching” and distinct from something that has been prepared earlier (i.e. 1 Cor 14:26).
Each of these people – apostles and non-apostles – also had Scripture available – the same Scripture that Paul said was inspired by God and profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness.
From the beginning, Scripture shows us that God communicates with people. He does so in many, many different ways – as witnessed by Scripture. Those ways would include audibly, through thoughts, dreams, visions, etc. as well as through Scripture. Unless Scripture tells us that God has stopped communicating in other ways, then we have no reason to believe he has stopped.
Of course, someone can still believe that God has stopped communicating except through Scripture, but that understanding does not come from Scripture itself. That belief is extra-biblical.
-Alan
Alan,
I humbly disagree with you. Not about the way that the Lord has revealed His will in the past, but after His Word, the Bible, was finished, completed. There’s a verse in Revelation about adding to, or taking away from God’s Word leading to bad things.
Also, Alan, in case you believe that God still speaks to us today in a revelatory way, what if one of your Deacons came up to you and said that God told him to tell you to give $10,000 to Lottie Moon offering, even if you have to sell a car to raise the 10 grand? How would you respond to that? And, by what authority would you tell him that he had not heard from God? What right would you have to tell him that God had not told him that?
David
David (volfan),
Yes, in Revelation 22:18-19, God warns us through John not to add to or take away from the prophecy of “this book” – i.e. Revelation. You’ll find similar commands in Deut 4:2, 12:32, Prov 30:5-6, etc. I am not suggesting that we add anything to those commands or those books. Nor am I suggesting that we add anything to Scripture. Scripture is the Word of God. But, everything God spoke was not written down – but it was still God’s word.
If a deacon, or anyone else, told me that God wanted me to give $10,000 – regardless of the recipients or whether or not I would have to sell my belongings to come up with the amount – then I would take that seriously, if they were being serious. And, just like the church in Antioch in Acts 13, I would spend time seeking God’s will in the matter. Like I said, I do not believe that God will contradict himself. If I thought God wanted me to give the money, then I would do so. If I did not think that God wanted me to give the money, then I would not.
I do not have the right or authority to tell someone whether or not they have “heard from God”. Only God has that authority. Of course, if it is something that God has already said – in Scripture, for instance – then by God’s own authority we can say that the person has not “heard from God”.
By the way, I personally do not like the phrase “hear from God”, because it suggests that God spoke audibly. I do believe that God can speak audibly if he so chooses. But it is possible for God to communicate in other ways as well.
I appreciate that you disagree with me. Many believers do disagree with me and others concerning this issue. I maintain great fellowship with many brothers and sisters in spite of this disagreement. If it is true that God now only communicates to us through Scripture, he did not tell us this in Scripture. Which means, of course, that this was an extra-biblical revelation, which is contradictory to the view that God only communicates with us through Scripture.
-Alan
Alan,
The Deacon said that God told him to tell you this. How could you say no to him? By what authority? I mean, he said that God told him to tell you. So, why would you have to spend time praying about it?
I know of a Church where the Pastor was constantly telling the Church that God revealed to him, or God told him this, or that. He was a good man. I liked him. It started out with God told him to get rid of the hymnbooks. So, they did. One Sunday, when I was visiting there, he said that God told him that his sinus trouble was to be healed. So, he called the Deacons forward and they prayed for him to be healed. He told everyone that he felt all of his sinus’ draining down his throat like a clogged drain busting loose. After that day, things went downhill fast…turning stranger and stranger as they reacted to every thought that came into thier minds, or as they “obeyed” every emotion that came along. None of it violated Scripture mind you…not clearly, anyways. But, the Church no longer exists today. It went belly up after a series of huge, knock down fights over new revelations given to different members. It was bad and sad.
I would just encourage you and Lew to be very careful about new revelations from God not given to us in the Bible. I hear your heart about testing the Spirits, and that’s good. I dont believe that yall would do something that goes against Scripture. But, I would warn yall about this “new revelations from God” type thinking.
I also maintain fellowship with people who disagree with me on non-essential matters. God bless you, Alan.
David
David (volfan),
Whenever God communicates – whether it be through Scripture, dreams, visions, “feelings”, urges, desires, etc. – God always communicates in an objective manner. Whenever we interpret what God communicates – whether it be through Scripture, dreams, etc. – our interpretation is always subjective. Just as I know that I can misunderstand God (either in Scripture or other means of communication), I know that others can as well – even a godly, well-meaning deacon.
I appreciate the warning. May I also offer a warning to you: Jesus said, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me”. If God communicates with you, and you do not follow, then you are disobeying – whether or not it is written in Scripture. If you tell others that God has not communicated with them, then you may be hindering the work of the Holy Spirit in a person’s life.
-Alan
Alan,
I do believe that as one of God’s sheep, I hear His voice as I pray and read His Word. He speaks to my heart and mind very clearly as I study His Word. And, one day, I will hear His voice audibly, in Heaven.
I do believe that God leads us in areas not mentioned in Scripture, i.e., about buying a new house, or not; about which school to attend; about which girl someone should marry; etc. I do not believe that God still speaks to us in a “revelatory” sense; like, “Harriet, God told me to marry you.” End of story thing. I do believe that a young man could say to a girl,” Harriet, I believe that the Lord wants us to be together; do you? Will you marry me?” And then, she could say, “I’ve been praying about this, and yes, I believe that the Lord is in this. I will marry you.” God gave them wisdom to see it. God gave them the desire for each other. They both agreed that God was in it.
Alan, do you see the difference in my feeble attempt at illustration?
My back bows like a mad cat when I hear some of those tv evangelists say that God told them that 100 people should send in a gift of $1,000; or when somebody in the Church says that God told them that we’re not supposed to meet at 6 pm anymore, but at 5pm on Sunday night. It’s hard to argue with “god.”
David
If I might butt into this conversation, I believe that many times God is speaking to us, and we don’t hear or understand His voice, because we don’t expect Him to speak, at least not in the way He is doing it. I believe David, you are basically correct, in that we should assume a humble attitude towards the possibility of infallibly understanding and interpreting God’s communication. But, at the same time, I think we should also be humble in recognizing that our own independent wisdom is not sufficient to guide us, and we are totally dependent on the voice of the Holy Spirit, through His Word (the Bible), and other means of revelation (inner voice, conscience, dreams, prophecy, etc.), as well as the common sense and wisdom that God Himself gives to us to divide between these things.
At the risk of passing on man’s wisdom, I would like to recommend Henry and Richard Blackaby’s book, “Hearing God’s Voice”. It is, in my opinion, a balanced and measured treatment of the topic at hand.
Let me share a rather long quote from the summary of the first chapter (p17-18):
“Some people contend that God no longer speaks to people beyond what he has already said in Scripture. They are reluctant to believe God gives specific guidance to individuals today. Others act as if God’s Word to them today overrides anything he has said in the Bible. Such people are experience driven. They tend to be controlled by their emotions”.
“Many Christians use alleged divine revelations as a means of manipulating others. Perhaps they are troubled by what they deem to be restrictive in the Scriptures, so they appeal to visions and dreams to release them from what they find too restraining”.
“A third approach to Christianity elevates doctrine about God over relating to God. This view can be adopted in reaction to the excesses of people who behave as if God constantly speaks to them in ways that contradict the Bible. Others who take this approach are uncomfortable with the idea of God being involved with people on a regular and intimate basis. They feel that God is above taking regular time to commune with ordinary people about seemingly ordinary things.
“We contend that God does speak to his people. However, people must be prepared to hear what he is saying. The question, then is not whether God speaks to his people but how he does so”.
“When God speaks, he does not give new revelation about himself tht contradicts what he has already revealed in Scripture. Rather, God speaks to give application of his Word to the specific circumstances in your life. When God speaks to you, he is not writing a new book of Scripture; rather, he is applying to your life what he has already said in his Word”.
–Dave
Dave,
Excellent quote. I concur wholeheartedly.
I agree with that quote also.
-Alan
Dave,
So, if a Church member came up to you and said that God had shown him that you should step down as Pastor, then you’d say “OK?” Because, after all, God has shown it? And, in order for you to be obedient, then you’d have to do it, or else be found in disobedience. You see, I would have no problem telling that person that they had not heard from God, because that’s not the way I felt about it, nor was it in the Bible.
Also, when Blackaby says,”Others who take this approach are uncomfortable with the idea of God being involved with people on a regular and intimate basis. They feel that God is above taking regular time to commune with ordinary people about seemingly ordinary things.” That’s not true about me, nor is true about the people I know who believe like me. I believe that God wants to be involved with people on a personal, regular, intimate basis. I believe that God is very interested in communing with ordinary people about ordinary things. So, Blackaby is wrong about a lot of us who believe that God does not give extra Biblical revelation.
BTW, if you’ll read what I wrote earlier, you’ll see that I do believe that God leads us and guides us. He gives us wisdom to see things clearly and truthfully, and He gives us the desires of our hearts when we’re seeking Him. I dont put much stock in thoughts popping into your mind, or emotional feelings that could be affected by the baloney sandwich you ate too late at night, in determining THE WILL OF GOD.
David
David (we need numbers or perhaps middle names),
Against my better judgement, I will walk into your hypothetical.
If a church member (or anyone else) were to suggest that God had given them direction for my life, I would consider the possibility (however remote) that they might in fact be correct. Humility is not marked by offended defense but rather sober consideration. King David when cursed by Shimei considered the possibility that God may in fact have directed Shimei. His response was not to dismiss Shimei but rather to say, “If he curses, and if the LORD has told him, ‘Curse David,’ then who shall say, ‘Why have you done so?’” (2 Samuel 16:5-13). I would carefully consider the possibility that this church member might in fact be correct.
I would compare this “message” with the guidance that I have been receiving from God. This new message will either contradict or support what I am already sensing. Jesus did not mindlessly obey Peter’s rebuke of the way of the cross but rather rebuked Peter’s rebuke (Matthew 16:21-23). Even spiritual giants get it wrong sometimes.
I am well aware of the fact that anybody can say anything. I am not foolish enough to subscribe to every thought (not even my own). I’ve found in the Scriptures that everyone who ever heard from God KNEW THAT IT WAS GOD and KNEW EXACTLY WHAT GOD WAS SAYING.
Rest assured that I would not hurriedly react to this message or any other. I would ask the Spirit to speak through the Scriptures, to speak through other Christians, or in any other way that the Father might choose. Like Gideon, I am not beyond placing a fleece before the Lord (Judges 6:36-40). In addition, I would look for the fruits of the Spirit to be present in the decision: Am I motivated by “love” or “fear”? Am I joyful in the decision? Am I at peace? Am I hurrying past God or patiently waiting for his salvation? Is there a motivation for showing kindness or is it self-interest? Is it good? What direction would in a larger way demonstrate faithfulness to God? You get the point…
In reality, people often speak to me concerning what they perceive to be God’s will for me. Every church that I have ever served on staff at, has voted that they believed that God was calling me to serve their church. I have not always agreed with their conclusion based upon my own walk with God.
Jesus says in John 8:47, “He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason that you do not hear is that you do not belong to God”. The clear teaching of Jesus is that we will hear God. To not hear indicates a lack of personal relationship.
Blessings upon you, my brother…
–Dave
David (volfan),
While I believe that God continues to communicate with his children today, that does not mean that I believe that everyone who says they have “heard from God” necessarily has heard from God. Many godly, caring, humble, loving people misunderstand what God is communicating. This includes people misunderstanding what God communicates through Scripture, but is not limited to that.
I would include myself in that list also. I often misunderstand what God is communicating. Therefore, if someone says that God told them something about me, I would seriously consider it. I may be the one who is not understanding God correctly (like Peter in Dave Samples example). The fact that we misunderstand God does not mean that he has stopped communicating.
Now, I would make my decision (in your hypothetical case) after seriously considering what this brother or sister told me, and after considering what Scripture says, and after considering what I think I understand God to be communicating to me, and after considering the counsel other brothers and sisters.
Could God communicate through another brother or sister that I am doing something wrong? Apparently so. He did this to David through Nathan and to Peter through Paul, among others.
It would be very arrogant of me indeed if I were to think that there is no way that I could misunderstand God’s will for my life or what God is communicating to be or that God could communicate to me through another of his children.
-Alan
Alan,
If someone came to me, and shared from the Bible on something that was crystal clear how I was doing wrong, or believing wrong; then I would repent. I would listen. If it was clearly taught in the Bible.
Dave and Alan, yall sound a lot like what I was saying and what I believe when you answered my hypothetical situation. I can agree with people searching the Scriptures, praying on a matter, weighing the possibilities while trusting God for wisdom, etc. But, I did not hear either one of you saying that God gave you direct revelation against what the Deacon, or the Church member said that God was telling him. Yall responded very similar to what I was saying.
BTW, what happened to Lew?
David
David (volfan),
Actually, I included the following phrase: “and after considering what I think I understand God to be communicating to me”. This means that I would consider what God was communicating to me, possibly against and possibly confirming what the deacon said.
Lew started a new job in a new city this week. I’ll tell him that you were concerned about him.
-Alan
David Worley,
I think that, when all is done and told, we do not come out all that far apart on this question. For me, at least, Scripture is definitely the standard against which I must compare and contrast other supposed sources of God’s revelation in my life. But, I believe there are other things that are not communicated clearly or directly in Scripture that God wants to communicate to His children, as well.
I guess where we may differ is probably to what degree God still uses things like dreams, inner impressions, words of prophecy, etc. to communicate to us today. I don’t find any indication in Scripture that God ever quit using things like that. I would say that only those who God used to write inspired Scripture were gifted with infallibility in their transmission of God’s revelation, though. Even Agabus, whom the Bible indicates had a legitimate gift of prophecy, was a tad bit off-base in some of the details of what he prophesied to Paul (Acts 11:28, 21:9-11).
As Alan points out, all of us can mistakenly interpret God’s communication, whether in the Bible, or whether through other means. Thus, we must, as Hebrews 5:14 says, “by reason of use have [our] senses exercised to discern both good and evil.” That is, the more we practice, the better we get at getting it right. Also, as 1 Cor. 2:13-14 says, the things the Holy Spirit teaches us are “spiritually discerned.”
Finally, I would say that when God speaks to us, He speaks to us as whole persons, that is, through both the left and right sides of our brains. I think that, as a result of the cultural biases of the Enlightenment, many Evangelicals in the Western world have placed an almost exclusive emphasis on God speaking through the left brain. Many more Charismatic and Two-Thirds World believers have perhaps placed too much emphasis on God speaking through the right brain. I think a correct balance will include both.