The Discipleship Void
Over the past couple years, I’ve spent quite a bit of time learning about “Baptist Issues”. I’ve spent way too much time reading blogs, internet forums, and other online Baptist publications, and have read quite a few books on a variety of topics ranging from church vision to small group development to missional living to apologetics.
In doing all of the above, I’ve come across some general facts and statistics that are simply frightening:
– Southern Baptist church membership growth is vastly outpaced by general population growth.
– The vast majority of “church growth” is either biological growth (children of church members getting saved) or transfer membership.
– Somewhere between 80 to 90 percent of teens never return to regular church attendance after they graduate school and move out of their youth group.
From these things, I conclude three things:
– Most churches are doing a miserable job of reaching unchurched people.
– Most churches really aren’t even reaching their own kids.
– Something must change.
There’s no beating around the bush here… these are serious problems that churches need to address, and quickly at that. We’re losing a spiritual battle for the hearts and souls of our kids, our families, our friends, and our communities!
Something must change.
I write all of this in the context of self-examination. You see, I am the Sunday School director at my church (Missouri Valley Baptist), and in my two years serving in that position, I’ve done absolutely nothing to make a dent in these problems. While I could chalk that up to being rather new in the church and still feeling my way in regard to how we operate, I’m really without excuse. I’ve seen the problem… even in my own church… and done nothing.
Something must change.
But what?
Here’s my thought as to one root cause… the discipleship void.
Do a bit of self-examination here, and tell me if your answers don’t reflect a lack of discipleship.
– Describe the quality and frequency of your quiet times with God.
– When is the last time you prayed with your spouse? Your children?
– What kind of regular, focused efforts do you take to help your kids grow in Christ?
– What kind of intentional efforts do you make to share your faith with others?
– How do you go about “being” the church on a daily basis?
Now one might expect our audience here at sbcIMPACT! (pastors and laypersons who are obviously committed to Christ and interested in growing in Him) to have answers to all of these questions that reflect well upon our relationship with and commitment to Christ. So what about your congregations or fellow church-members? What about John Q. Christian?
Here’s the deal… when I see the unchurched continuing to be ignored by the church, I don’t see a lack of pastoral concern for the matter so much as I do a lack of congregational concern rooted in stagnant faith. When I see teenagers graduating from high school and leaving the church behind for good, I don’t see the youth minister at fault for lack of effort in helping to mold them, but the failure of moms and dads to step up to the plate and fulfill their God-given assignment to guide them in the ways of the Lord.
Worst of all? I see these traits in myself, and I simply don’t want to live a life of dead faith anymore. And I certainly don’t want to see my kids grow up only to bolt straight out the doors of the church, running from God, never to return.
I believe there is a huge opportunity here to make a difference in addressing these problems through family-focused faith. If we can help moms, dads, and kids to grow in their faith together, we can see miraculous things happen in their lives. As families begin to reflect God’s design, and they begin to see what God can do in their lives, I believe we’ll see the unchurched want to see what makes faith-focused families tick. I believe we’ll start to see families begin to have a passion for sharing what God is doing in their lives, and I believe God will open doors for them to make a difference in the lives of others.
I believe in family-focused discipleship.
The purpose of this post? Really just an introduction. Over the next few weeks here at sbcIMPACT! (or months, depending on how many posts this series ends up being), I’ll be sharing some thoughts on this topic, drawing from an excellent book I’ve recently read on the topic, Voddie Baucham Jr.’s, “Family Driven Faith”. I want to explore this topic with all of you, and hear your thoughts and insights on the matter.
Selfishly? I’m hoping to get a better vision for what a family focused discipleship program might look like, so that I might start to make a difference in the life of my own family and the lives of families in my church.
So let’s get this discussion off the ground by kicking around a few questions.
– Do we truly have a discipleship void in the church?
– What evidence (either for or against this concept) do you have to support your thoughts?
– If there is a discipleship void, why?
– What are you doing in your church to encourage discipleship and spiritual growth?
– What has worked and what hasn’t?
– Has anyone tried family-focused discipleship? How did it go? Any lessons learned?
You get the point… This topic is free game, so fire away with whatever thoughts and ideas you may have.
I look forward to the discussion, both on this post and in future posts in this series.
1) “A lack of congregational concern.” Agreed. That is why we have youth pastors because the congregation has dropped the ball. Get rid of this office, get rid of it now, and get parents active in the lives of their youth. I don’t need a 22 year old calling my teenager or hanging out with them, that’s my job, not theirs.
2)So you don’t see a lack of pastoral concern but do see a lack of congregational concern? That doesn’t seem to jive. They usually go hand-in-hand.
3) Lastly, are we done with the term unchurched yet? It hardly is a term that motivates us to love and good deeds. It isn’t a term that brings home the weight of their lostness and their day of impending judgment.
John in the STL
John,
Let me put this a bit differently. I don’t see pastors as simply not caring about reaching the lost, although perhaps fault can be found in how they encourage, motivate, and lead their congregations to do so. My point lies more in the attitudes of our congregations, though… if we’re that concerned about seeing the baptistry busy, and upset because the pastor isn’t dunking someone on a regular basis, why haven’t we embraced evangelism? In other words, is it the pastor’s fault, or mine?
Lack of pastoral concern and lack of congregational concern DO go hand in hand, of course. I just don’t think that, as a rule, we can say pastors aren’t concerned.
In regard to the term, “unchurched”, I use it initially here to describe the audience we fail most miserably at reaching… those without any exposure to the gospel or any background in the church period (in conjunction with our point of seeing much of our growth being transfer membership). There are better terms to describe those outside a relationship with Christ, of course, and I should have used one elsewhere in this post when I was speaking to reaching the lost, generically.
I think it’s possible the church … largely … has the wrong idea about “reaching unchurched people”. In fact, I posted about this issue some time back You can catch that at:
http://mightyfowl.blogspot.com/2008/03/ok-lets-go-win-some-souls.html
There is definitely a discipleship void in our churches today, and I would call it epidemic. It is interesting that you are writing about this today because I have been having a very similar discussion with some of my fellow seminary students over the last week or so.
I have been frustrated lately with the fact that our churches seem to be very good a “doing” church, but that most of the people in them have no idea how to “be” the church. I think we can stop this by re-creating the culture of our churches, making discipleship a part of everyday life. Some of the people who have been around along time may never get on the boat but if we expect new believers to be discipled and create ways for them to be, then they will continue this when they are in leadership. Because, like the people we are struggling with now, they will know nothing different.
It seems from my conversations that most of us young guys are deeply concerned with the lack of discipleship in our churches. A lot of us have commented that we didn’t feel truly discipled until coming to seminary. Hopefully we’ll see this concern to into action.
[...] I’ve republished it (slightly modified) over at sbc IMPACT. When you get a chance, check it out and share your thoughts on the issue. Share this [...]
John S.,
We’ve recently started Family Integrated small groups (we do not have a Sunday School) for several reasons:
1) We want to help model family worship,
2) cut down separating husband, wife and children in ministry, and honestly,
3) eliminate child care as an excuse to not connect and disciple one another.
Here’s what we do:
Everyone gathers together (children included) for 20 minutes for a gospel centered devotional and prayer time. I specifically do this to model family worship and to remove some of the fear some dads may have in leading out in this area. I plan to rotate it though!
We then have a children’s activity in the next room while we watch some video content. It’s very lightweight, but we do that on purpose. We discuss the questions from this study.
After roughly 40 minutes, the kids are done and we are done, so we get some refreshments and, let the kids play together, and then I hit them with my sneaky discipleship attack…
We have an assigned scripture reading, usually 5 chapters long, that we are to read every week. If you are familiar with Neil Cole’s Cultivating A life For God, his Life Transformation Groups are pretty much what we do. We talk about how we interacted with the text, and we hold each other accountable to be in the text. This is where we see the Word of God start to move in his people. Last night we spent an hour talking about John 1-5.
We have similar small groups for empty nesters as well. They have a lightweight study coupled with strong interaction with just Scripture.
Now, to be honest, we will not go as far as Dr. Baucham suggests. I think his aligning the entire church with just the family structure assumes what I call ‘the happy path’. It assumes that parents are mature (or even moving toward mature). I also don’t understand how you work children and youth whose parents are not believers, and do not attend, into the ministry of a pure , family driven church.
So, we’re heading for the middle ground of intentionally training parents to disciple their children, yet still including children and youth programs (very limited though) to provide additional discipleship.
We’ve been plugging away at this for a year and are just now starting to see more interaction with these small groups. It’s hard work, but we now have more people involved in small groups than we have ever had. And we also know that our small group are not doing just lightweight studies, but using Scripture as the primary study.
Mike,
Nice to see a fellow Jefferson Countian on SBCimpact!
http://www.valleyviewbaptistchurch.org/
Also, my comment about youth pastors seems to have fallen upon deaf ears.
John D.
I knew you were from the Seckman Valley. Actually your pastor (Scott) mentored me when we were both members of the big, bad megachurch to your north. ;)
(BTW, I still love that church!)
FWIW, I agree somewhat to your concerns about youth pastors. We have never advocated the mentality of a youth ministry that is practically separate from the church. Youth are in our corporate worship service, and involved in our Wed night DiscipleLife study. Now through our family integrated small groups, they’re tied into small groups as well.
We do have a Sunday night youth meeting, and some youth events. Parents are invited, and sometimes expected, to be present for these meetings.
Like I said, we’re going for the middle ground of strongly encouraging/teaching parents to disciple their youth, yet still give the youth a time to spur each other on to works of righteousness.
John,
I completely disagree with your comment on youth pastors. I quite think they have the most important role on any pastoral staff. They are on the front line of cross-cultural ministry.
The churches haven’t “dropped the ball.” They just refuse to understand their own children. They are, in effect, spiritually starving their children to death … and they seem OK with it. Why else would 70% + of our kids abandon the church (and faith?) post high school?
No, we don’t need to fire the youth pastors. We need to double their ranks, increase their training, and double their salaries … which is what I plan for our church to do for our youth pastor in the coming year.
I’ll be posting on this subject next week, BTW …
I was wondering when Geoff was going to pounce in..;)
Mike,
Wow. What you’re doing with small groups sounds almost identical to what I’ve been considering for our fledgling small group ministry.
As you’ve indicated, some of what Voddie writes and advocates does present issues. I hope to get to that in future posts here on IMPACT as I develop this series of posts.
John,
I didn’t intend to ignore you comment about youth pastors. I don’t know that we need to go so far as to eliminate them altogether, but I CERTAINLY agree that parents need to take ultimate responsibility for raising our kids to be faithful followers of Christ.
As Mike writes, what do you do with kids that have zero Christian influence in their lives except for their youth pastor?
Mike,
Me … pounce? I’m too big to pounce. Besides, John would just outrun me anyway. :) Right, John?
And, Mike – are you from the St. Louis area, too? I was just up there with our youth for a week of M-Fuge. I spent a day at a pretty gnarly place called Windsor Park. Ever heard of it?
We’ve created an office where there is no scriptural warrant. We cannot let the culture dictate what offices we have or don’t have. Maybe we’re in this mess because we haven’t been obedient in how we set up proper church polity?
For kids that have zero Christian infulence in their lives except for their youth pastor, well then let’s get busy being His Hands and Feet. You can’t even begin to tell me that having four or five godly elders on staff (paid or unpaid) who live out what they proclaim can’t provide a winsome example of the Christian life and really care for the flock. And–for the most–part, they will be firmly grounded in doctrine which just might help them from becoming part of that 70%.
It’s not a question of whether of having a youth pastor works or not, it’s a question of whether that is God’s best plan for His Church or not? What has He already told us?
Geoff,
John and I are both from the southern part of the St. Louis metro area, Jefferson County, also known affectionately as JeffCo. For everyone else in the metro area it’s a term of derision.
I don’t know where Windsor Park is. Is it in the city? The city of St. Louis is hit and miss with it’s neighborhoods. Some areas are OK, some not so OK, and some REALLY not OK.
BTW, we’ve interacted before on your old blog. I was born in Madisonville, KY and moved up to St. Louis as a baby. Most of my extended family still lives in Western KY.
John,
We have a Pastoral Leadership Team (in essence the elders) that oversees all the ministries of our church. One of our elders has the title ‘Youth Pastor’, but we as the pastors are all involved in the ministry.
I saw from your church website that you have a youth ministry. Who is overseeing that ministry?
I actually teach the youth now. Just a regular joe who has a heart for that age group.
We have Windsor High School which is in the Imperial/Barnhart area but I too am unfamiliar with a Windsor Park.
Just a quick drive by post:
If we’re going to not call them unchurched, we can go back to the term lost and include half the people on our rolls.
Most of the kids and youth we reach come from divorced homes. There are limits to what you can accomplish if you assume nuclear families.
I’d rather have a 22 year old youth guy on fire for Jesus and sold out to kids working with them than 90% of the people I’ve met in ministry. Too many people out of touch with Jesus and with the culture on church staffs and in church board rooms.
The “no scriptural warrant thing”… smells Church of Christ to me. Just saying…
All that said, getting a handle on discipleship and through that evangelism is a real need. We’ve chosen to start with triads involving men. But however you do it, getting families living, growing and relating to God and each other right will possibly be the biggest impact you can have on the community and culture.
Gotta run
David
Blaming youth ministry for the problems of our youth is like blaming chemotherapy for cancer.
John,
There is nothing in the Bible that says that a Church cant have a Youth Minister; is there? And, the Early Church had many Elders in them. So, why couldnt we have an Elder in charge of the Youth ministry? and another one in charge of the children’s ministry? and another one in charge of the senior adult ministry? and another one in charge of the…..well, you get the picture.
John, I really dont think that you have a leg to stand on with the “Youth ministers are not found in the Bible” arguement.
David
I guess that’s up to you in regards to who qualifies as an elder. A high office indeed.
It seems to me that it would be good to have some system in place in which someone was specifically assigned to keep track, in one way or another, of the discipleship progress of each member of a church. This could be, for example, small group leaders who know, and watch out for the discipleship needs of each member of their group. Or, it could be some other system. In any case, there should not be near as much room for anonymous, spectator type of Christianity as there is many, many congregations today.
John,
As you infer here, parents should be the main ones accountable for keeping up with the discipleship progress of their own children. I agree that the church should help parents in this task, and provide resourcs and support in order to help them do it better. But, I see nothing wrong with other people (i.e. youth directors, workers) coming alongside parents in a support role as well.
John, like most commentors on here, I too disagree with your thoughts about youth pastors. No, the Bible doesn’t say to have Ministers of Youth in the local church, but the Bible also doesn’t tell us to do many of the things we do. If I am not mistaken, the Bible doesn’t really tell us much about the organization or functionality of the daily church.
Then again, in the book of Acts, the Christians gave everything they owned to the support of the work and poor? If we follow your logic of not doing something because the Bible doesn’t mention it, then the question that begs to be asked is are you giving away everything to support God’s work?
So, if you are heading up the youth ministry in your church or leading it, are you failing God by doing so? Isn’t that what you said parents should be doing?
John,
My guess is that when you hear the term ‘Youth Pastor’ thrown around by some churches, you may have the image of some kid who doesn’t know his own theology, wants to be a relationship counselor, and primarily spends his time planning paintball games and XBox festivals.
Let me say that when I use the term ‘Youth Pastor’ I think of one of our elders who has oversight for the ministry, who is in accountability to the rest of our elders, and who understands that his role in the discipleship of youth, in most cases, is primarily supplemental to that of the parents.
Maybe our disagreement is just semantics.
John,
Why do youth drop out of church after High School? Many reasons. Let me give one thought.
Many churches have a disconnect between youth and the rest of church. They’re among youth in Sunday School, Sunday Morning Worship, and the Wednesday Night Youth Program. They go on mission trips and recreational trips together. Youth ministry is big.
Then they wander into a no man’s land too old for the youth and not quite adults. They don’t fit in with the adults anyway. No exciting programs; not much entertainment.
I grew up in relatively small churches. Some youth activities but not a lot. I was forced to go to church on Sunday night. Every Sunday night. I missed the entire era of the TV series Bonanza and Disney. Sometimes my two brothers and I were the only youth at church on Sunday night. We were forced to sing hymns and listen to dad preach and teach the Bible to adults. No Wednesday night youth program. I was forced to go to the Wednesday night Bible Study and Prayer Meeting with a bunch of old codgers. Every Wednesday of my life.
I got to know and respect those old folks. When I started becoming an adult I already knew a little about them, and very little about Bonanza and Disney. I knew church must be important since I’d been forced to attend. I saw that my parents really believed and practiced their Christianity. With or without a youth director, and with or without other youth in attendance, I learned God’s Word. Maybe especially on Sunday and Wednesday nights. Our youth were thoroughly mixed in with the adults (not just the adult youth workers). Our youth were just a part of the church. I’ve never been able to get rid of that insidious influence. My two brothers and I are all Southern Baptist pastors today.
Every now and then I even get to watch a Bonanza rerun. Life is good.
David R. Brumbelow
The following post I just read by J.D. Greear does a great job of fleshing out what I was talking about in comment #21.
http://jdgreear.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/07/acts-2028-and-the-dilemma-of-church-growth.html
I think people today are looking for more than what we’ve been giving them. We’ve turned discipleship in to a series of courses. Discipleship is learning to follow Jesus not just rational teaching. It has helped me to broaden what this means: I try to follow Jesus…
…who was compassionate to the poor and the oppressed
…who was a creative story-teller and even performance artist
…who was a spiritual mystic, spending blocks of time alone
…who lived in simplicity, treaded gently on the earth and borrowed a lot of things from friends
…who was a great friend and companion on the journey
…who enjoyed a good party every now and then
I think this is why Shane Claiborne’s book “The Irresistible Revolution” has become so hugely popular among young people because it presents a radically holistic way of following Jesus that we haven’t been talking about in most of our churches.
Blessings
db
[...] couple weeks back, I shared the introductory post to this series (“The Discipleship Void”), where I shared a few facts and figures that seem to indicate that there is a real lack of [...]
[...] family focused faith (based on Voddie Baucham Jr.’s book), has touched on a number of topics: the discipleship void, issues with modern Christian parenting, cultural influences affecting our views toward kids, [...]
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