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	<title>Comments on: You Make the Call &#8211; Episode 4</title>
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	<link>http://sbcimpact.org/2008/07/02/you-make-the-call-episode-4/</link>
	<description>life :: theology :: church :: ministry :: missions :: worship</description>
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		<title>By: Shrinking Cooperative Program CP Giving &#38; SBC Future &#124; Southern Baptist Blogs - SBC Voices</title>
		<link>http://sbcimpact.org/2008/07/02/you-make-the-call-episode-4/#comment-14436</link>
		<dc:creator>Shrinking Cooperative Program CP Giving &#38; SBC Future &#124; Southern Baptist Blogs - SBC Voices</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Oct 2008 13:13:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=473#comment-14436</guid>
		<description>[...] You Make The Call (CP issues post) from SBC Impact [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] You Make The Call (CP issues post) from SBC Impact [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Shane</title>
		<link>http://sbcimpact.org/2008/07/02/you-make-the-call-episode-4/#comment-14435</link>
		<dc:creator>Shane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 22:21:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The CP is one way (albeit the most common way) for SBC churches to give.  A stingy church is outside the will of God, in my opinion.  Let&#039;s ask whether this church gives any $$ outside the CP and what proportion or percentage of receipts.  Then, we find an easier time judging the situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The CP is one way (albeit the most common way) for SBC churches to give.  A stingy church is outside the will of God, in my opinion.  Let&#8217;s ask whether this church gives any $$ outside the CP and what proportion or percentage of receipts.  Then, we find an easier time judging the situation.</p>
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		<title>By: Lin</title>
		<link>http://sbcimpact.org/2008/07/02/you-make-the-call-episode-4/#comment-14434</link>
		<dc:creator>Lin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 04:15:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=473#comment-14434</guid>
		<description>&quot;The only connection between the two is that he pastors the second. How could it be considered hypocritical if the church, by the congregational form of government so dearly followed by SBCs, decides not to give to the CP?&quot;

What makes you sure it has congregational polity? I get the impression SBTS emphasizes elder rule only.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The only connection between the two is that he pastors the second. How could it be considered hypocritical if the church, by the congregational form of government so dearly followed by SBCs, decides not to give to the CP?&#8221;</p>
<p>What makes you sure it has congregational polity? I get the impression SBTS emphasizes elder rule only.</p>
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		<title>By: scott shaffer</title>
		<link>http://sbcimpact.org/2008/07/02/you-make-the-call-episode-4/#comment-14433</link>
		<dc:creator>scott shaffer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 21:46:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=473#comment-14433</guid>
		<description>Geoff,

I think you are missing my point. On the one hand you have a pastor who takes CP funds, and on the other you have a church that doesn&#039;t give to the CP. It is two different people/groups. The only connection between the two is that he pastors the second. How could it be considered hypocritical if the church, by the congregational form of government so dearly followed by SBCs, decides not to give to the CP? The only thing that makes it suspect is if he is telling them not to give (or something similar).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geoff,</p>
<p>I think you are missing my point. On the one hand you have a pastor who takes CP funds, and on the other you have a church that doesn&#8217;t give to the CP. It is two different people/groups. The only connection between the two is that he pastors the second. How could it be considered hypocritical if the church, by the congregational form of government so dearly followed by SBCs, decides not to give to the CP? The only thing that makes it suspect is if he is telling them not to give (or something similar).</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff Baggett</title>
		<link>http://sbcimpact.org/2008/07/02/you-make-the-call-episode-4/#comment-14432</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff Baggett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:19:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=473#comment-14432</guid>
		<description>Otay now I get it. ;)

But ...

Were this scenario to actually exist, I would still think it hypocritical.

I know that in the world of SB church planting, most states REQUIRE a 10% return to the state&#039;s CP (and also a percentage to the local association) for state-sponsored NAMB support.  So, what that amounts to, is that in order for a church plant to receive a few thousand dollars in sponsorship, they must covenant to give this percentage ... which, naturally, will amount to far more than the original support in the mid to long term.

But in this pretend scenario, there is a tenured professor who receives (maybe?) 60-80K a year from the CP gifts of other churches, yet his own church is (functionally) a non-contributor to the source of his own income.

Were this to exist, I would think it something of an ethical inconsistency (in the very least).

But, remember, it&#039;s all pretend ... right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Otay now I get it. <img src='http://sbcimpact.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>But &#8230;</p>
<p>Were this scenario to actually exist, I would still think it hypocritical.</p>
<p>I know that in the world of SB church planting, most states REQUIRE a 10% return to the state&#8217;s CP (and also a percentage to the local association) for state-sponsored NAMB support.  So, what that amounts to, is that in order for a church plant to receive a few thousand dollars in sponsorship, they must covenant to give this percentage &#8230; which, naturally, will amount to far more than the original support in the mid to long term.</p>
<p>But in this pretend scenario, there is a tenured professor who receives (maybe?) 60-80K a year from the CP gifts of other churches, yet his own church is (functionally) a non-contributor to the source of his own income.</p>
<p>Were this to exist, I would think it something of an ethical inconsistency (in the very least).</p>
<p>But, remember, it&#8217;s all pretend &#8230; right?</p>
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		<title>By: scott shaffer</title>
		<link>http://sbcimpact.org/2008/07/02/you-make-the-call-episode-4/#comment-14431</link>
		<dc:creator>scott shaffer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 15:19:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=473#comment-14431</guid>
		<description>Geoff,

Regarding my question as to who was being a hypocrite, I was responding to this paragraph in your original post:

&quot;But I also see a blatant mass of hypocrisy here. There is not a week that passes by when I do not receive literature that lifts up the CP, or challenges the local churches to give more. So, as I consider a scenario like this one, I am a bit (pretend) offended. I find it outrageous that someone who receives a full-time CP salary (and another full-time pastor’s salary, to boot) leads a church that gives a mere whisper to SB causes.&quot;

My point is simple, I don&#039;t think you have even come close to proving that this professor/pastor is a hypocrite. It would be an entirely different matter if he was discouraging his flock from not giving to the CP. This may in fact be true, but you haven&#039;t published anything of that nature.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geoff,</p>
<p>Regarding my question as to who was being a hypocrite, I was responding to this paragraph in your original post:</p>
<p>&#8220;But I also see a blatant mass of hypocrisy here. There is not a week that passes by when I do not receive literature that lifts up the CP, or challenges the local churches to give more. So, as I consider a scenario like this one, I am a bit (pretend) offended. I find it outrageous that someone who receives a full-time CP salary (and another full-time pastor’s salary, to boot) leads a church that gives a mere whisper to SB causes.&#8221;</p>
<p>My point is simple, I don&#8217;t think you have even come close to proving that this professor/pastor is a hypocrite. It would be an entirely different matter if he was discouraging his flock from not giving to the CP. This may in fact be true, but you haven&#8217;t published anything of that nature.</p>
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		<title>By: David Wilson</title>
		<link>http://sbcimpact.org/2008/07/02/you-make-the-call-episode-4/#comment-14430</link>
		<dc:creator>David Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:50:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=473#comment-14430</guid>
		<description>Interesting discussion. Is it just me or is allegiance to the CP moving up in the matrix of what it means to be SBC? I know all the &quot;united around missions&quot; stuff, but I&#039;m thinking about what gets you &quot;in&quot; and what puts you &quot;out&quot;.

Just wondering if the ground is shifting under our feet.

David</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting discussion. Is it just me or is allegiance to the CP moving up in the matrix of what it means to be SBC? I know all the &#8220;united around missions&#8221; stuff, but I&#8217;m thinking about what gets you &#8220;in&#8221; and what puts you &#8220;out&#8221;.</p>
<p>Just wondering if the ground is shifting under our feet.</p>
<p>David</p>
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		<title>By: Ted</title>
		<link>http://sbcimpact.org/2008/07/02/you-make-the-call-episode-4/#comment-14429</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 12:48:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=473#comment-14429</guid>
		<description>OK. Strictly hypothetical.

Is it legal? Yes. The systems dictate that and it seems to be an axiom that some people learn the system, manipulate or milk it for all its worth. So, And, there must a great &quot;buzz&quot; for a preacher-professor to be &quot;in demand&quot;. Is that a &quot;ministerial cocaine&quot;? Systems must be reviewed and changed from time to time. If the system allows this (both church and seminary), then one or both need to change their system. Otherwise, the complaints are mute. Church and seminary created the system. The individual has just learned an economically advantageous loophole.

Is it moral? Can the person in question give that which is required of both employers and at the same time give to God and family that which they require and deserve? I don&#039;t think so. No matter what the system with its regs, we still only get one body and 168 hours per week. So some choices have to be made and those choices made will reflect the true values of the hypothetical person in question.

Maybe someone should ask this person&#039;s wife???

Just my hypothetical thoughts. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK. Strictly hypothetical.</p>
<p>Is it legal? Yes. The systems dictate that and it seems to be an axiom that some people learn the system, manipulate or milk it for all its worth. So, And, there must a great &#8220;buzz&#8221; for a preacher-professor to be &#8220;in demand&#8221;. Is that a &#8220;ministerial cocaine&#8221;? Systems must be reviewed and changed from time to time. If the system allows this (both church and seminary), then one or both need to change their system. Otherwise, the complaints are mute. Church and seminary created the system. The individual has just learned an economically advantageous loophole.</p>
<p>Is it moral? Can the person in question give that which is required of both employers and at the same time give to God and family that which they require and deserve? I don&#8217;t think so. No matter what the system with its regs, we still only get one body and 168 hours per week. So some choices have to be made and those choices made will reflect the true values of the hypothetical person in question.</p>
<p>Maybe someone should ask this person&#8217;s wife???</p>
<p>Just my hypothetical thoughts. <img src='http://sbcimpact.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Lew A</title>
		<link>http://sbcimpact.org/2008/07/02/you-make-the-call-episode-4/#comment-14428</link>
		<dc:creator>Lew A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 10:48:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=473#comment-14428</guid>
		<description>To me, it seems like a test that no one knows about, yet everyone is secretly judging you by. Kinda like those old ladies who watch to see who drops an envelope into the bucket. Then they get to have little meetings with their friends where they talk about how &quot;joe&quot; didn&#039;t put an envelope in the bucket last week.

Except, now it&#039;s, &quot;First Baptist Michigan only gave 100$ to the CP last year... but we know they bring in 100,000$ in tithes every year!&quot;

It&#039;s not a requirement to be a SB, it&#039;s not a requirement from God, and there are a number of other ways a church can support SB&#039;s without giving to the CP. A number makes it much to easy for us to judge, but without more information, than maybe we should just trust that these brothers are following what God is leading them to do.

Lew

Lew</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To me, it seems like a test that no one knows about, yet everyone is secretly judging you by. Kinda like those old ladies who watch to see who drops an envelope into the bucket. Then they get to have little meetings with their friends where they talk about how &#8220;joe&#8221; didn&#8217;t put an envelope in the bucket last week.</p>
<p>Except, now it&#8217;s, &#8220;First Baptist Michigan only gave 100$ to the CP last year&#8230; but we know they bring in 100,000$ in tithes every year!&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not a requirement to be a SB, it&#8217;s not a requirement from God, and there are a number of other ways a church can support SB&#8217;s without giving to the CP. A number makes it much to easy for us to judge, but without more information, than maybe we should just trust that these brothers are following what God is leading them to do.</p>
<p>Lew</p>
<p>Lew</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff Baggett</title>
		<link>http://sbcimpact.org/2008/07/02/you-make-the-call-episode-4/#comment-14427</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff Baggett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 03:18:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sbcimpact.net/?p=473#comment-14427</guid>
		<description>Scott,

I don&#039;t think I catch your drift.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think I catch your drift.</p>
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