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What is "Fair" Compensation for Ministers? … And Other Issues.
Posted by Rob Ayers in Church & Missions
By far one of the worst arguments I ever got into with my Dad was over the issue of minister compensation. My Dad is a long time deacon and church treasurer who has “seen them come and go.” The context of our discussion was during the mid-eighties during the Jim Bakker scandal with the luxury cars and the dog penthouse – and it just so happened that we were in Nashville, headquarters of opulence of that bureaucracy called Southern Baptist .
He was taking a “contrary” position, advocating the complete humiliation and humbling of every Baptist Pastor, “what was good for Jesus is good for them all” – you know, “no pillow for the head” – a life of complete poverty where no vow was necessary.
I was not for the Jim Bakker’s of the world mind you – just the idea that one did not need to have bear threads for clothing in order to serve the King of Kings. I threw in (just for spite) the fact that his favorite country and western artist we had just seen the day before in concert showed off to the world and everybody his brand new Rolex Presidential studded with diamonds. Consistent with his position, my Dad had the audacity to respond “He deserved it,” … as if every minister of the gospel did not work hard enough to deserve to wear such a watch.
I truly do not believe that my Dad was for keeping pastors penniless. He was just needling me, probably trying to discourage me from my calling of the ministry. He understood (from his in the know position) that Ministers of the Gospel do not get into the ministry to get rich in worldly goods – but in heavenly rewards.
Several questions for you – I would be interested in your response:
1. What would be considered a “fair” compensation for pastors and ministers? This could cover the realm of both bi-vocational and full time staff ministers from senior pastor to associate.
2. What kind of vehicle should the pastor drive? This may not seem important to some, but from where I serve, this is a stumbling block for some. I saw a mega-church pastor drive up with a Lexus in his personal parking spot and wondered how he was doing by his testimony (I do not know positive or negative here – just wondering. What do you think?)
3. Should ministers salaries and benefits be published for our members to see? I say with a resounding, “Yes,” yet I know of some, including our SBC and State entities who refuse to publish this information for all to see. Why? Why not?
I look forward to your responses.
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This is a topic that I’ve thought a lot about over the past few years. Here are my answers to your questions.
1) A pastor/minister should make 0$ salary (annually) from the church. He should however, work a secular job to pay for his living expenses. (Acts 20:32-36, 1 Thes. 4:11, 2 Thes. 3:10-13)
2) Just like every other Christian, I guess the best answer is, “whatever he can afford,” I suppose. If it were me, I’d buy a something with amazing gas mileage and a decent price (like a Honda Civic).
3) I don’t think that’s necessary. Whatever he makes in the private industry is really his own business. Unless the entire church shares all their salary information with each other.
God’s Glory,
Lew
The Pursuit Online Store
Rob,
This is an interesting article.
Question 1 – Fair compensation, I think would be for the pastor to have an equal salary and benefits as to that of his congregation he is serving.
Question 2 – In all fairness I don’t think the car should matter, but it should fit within his income. He should be able to drive the car he needs or even desires to drive, fitting his income and the people to whom he ministers.
Question 3 – I think in most cases the salaries are seen by the members of the church, that is, if they have business meetings, and the financial report is printed out. I don’t know why any pastor or leader would object to that unless they are ashamed of it.
T.A.
I once suggested to a Pastor search committee that the 5 people on the search team should average out their combined salaries and pay the pastor that amount.I never heard from them again.
A few years ago a young seminary graduate preached for a committee in our church in view of a call.Their first question to him when they met later that day was,”What is the least amount of money you would take to come as pastor of our church?This was a well established church that was debt free.Later they called a young pastor and the church split in less than two years.
There is a real need, in my opinion to get beyond what is “deserved” and to simply “bless”. I serve in a church that blesses. Their heartbeat is to do as much as they possibly can to make my service a pleasure and not a hardship. The salary is just one of many ways that a church can bless it’s pastoral staff. A church should bless it’s pastor in whatever measure it desires to be blessed. A pastor should drive whatever vehicle he can afford. I don’t want to “rub it in the face” of the less fortunate in my congregation and so a gracious spirit should abound. Of course, the church should know how their blessing their pastoral staff. Be blessed!
Oops! In final sentence, “their” s/b “they’re”
1) The pastor of a church should make a salary that is comparable to that of his church members, with variations in both directions being acceptable as long as they are not excessive. The finance committee should be totally responsible for setting this salary.
2) The pastor should drive whatever car he chooses, but setting an example of stewardship by driving a sensible car is commendable and wise.
3) I don’t believe that the church has any inherent “right” to know the pastor’s salary unless they are willing to share theirs with the entire church and the pastor, neither do they have a right to “inspect” his tithing record, or that of the deacons, or anyone elses. In a fully congressional polity church, it is inherent that they WILL be given the opportunity to vote on the pastor’s salary, or any other minister in the church, but that is not necessarily the same question. The pastor is not an “employee” of every single person in the church, but of the church as a whole. Just because Joe Bob Green doesn’t approve of how much the pastor makes doesn’t mean that it’s unsatisfactory to the church as a whole. The question would be whether a majority vote of the congregation present at the appropriate business meeting approved that salary. After that point, the information should be “sealed” and not addressed until the next appropriate meeting. It should not be a “public discussion” issue.
As for Lew’s perspective on bivocational pastors, that’s a noble goal, in a way, but it really limits the definition of pastor and it terribly limits the growth potential of a church. I think that’s another part of Lew’s “mission statement”, but I think we can take Paul’s example of tentmaking to an extreme. If pastors can’t be supported by their church, neither should missionaries. Trash the IMB. Get rid of the NAMB. Get rid of the entire SBC. Let the lazy missionaries get a job and pay their own way in Indonesia. In other words, I don’t put much stock in this viewpoint, because I’ve been in a church that practiced almost EXACTLY what Lew proposes, and it just doesn’t work. At least it didn’t for them.
Pastors should never put a price on God’s call, which means that acceptance of a church should never be based on money. A pastor should not negotiate his salary and benefits, but accept what the church does for him. If he can drive a Lexus on what the church pays him, so what? If he cannot, he should not, unless someone has given it to him. Handling of money is a real issue for many pastors. He should be willing to take what he is given for his work, and let others work out any church issues in their treatment of the pastor. There are almost always some thinking laymen who will see to it that the church does what is right. It is unseemly for men of God to be involved in those negotiations. The principle for the church should be, “The laborer is worthy of his hire.”
1. Between Lew, Dave, and Bernard, I think bi-vocationalism is a wonderful thing, but it doesn’t really work once a church gets to a certain size and can really limit that church’s and that pastor’s efficacy. I believe full-time pastors should recieve a salary on par with IMB missionaries (noting the differences in ability/qualification such as ISC, Apprentice, Associate, and Career). Every church should be willing to offer Annuity Board insurance to their pastor and his family.
2. Many missionaries need more than one vehicle to do their ministry work. So they pay for their second vehicle out of their own income and cover all its expenses. If IMB M’s can do it, so can pastors. M’s start on the field with next to nothing. This is not the case with most pastors. The church should subsidize the pastor’s salary to include decent car insurance and just let him drive what he can afford. My specific input would be along the line of Dave Ramsey. I don’t think our pastors should be in debt. I think churches should set a cap on the debt their pastor can incur. But that takes us to…
3. As Bernard said, the salary and benefits should have been voted on by the church and so that information is available through the church’s minutes for those who want to know. It is probably also in the notes given at any budget meeting. It’s not like that info needs to be put in the bulletin or shown on the screen. It’s there for those who care to know.
Ken,
A Pastor has to concern himself with salary because he has bills to pay and mouthes to feed. I personally dont see anything wrong with talking to the church about the money that they will support you with. A Pastor has to know these things.
Also, I just want to say that I agree with Bill Poore in comment #3. Well said, Bill. And, also notice Bill’s last name…Poore. Very fitting for most Pastors.
Also, I’d like to show you the difference in how many black churches and white churches in the small town/rural south view Pastor’s salaries. Let’s say that a group of black men are standing around talking in town, and one of them’s Pastor comes riding by in a big, nice, new Cadillac. Then, that fella sticks out his chest and says, “Hey fellas, that’s my Pastor.” But, if a bunch of white fellas are standing around the same town, talking, and one of them’s Pastor comes driving up in an old, beat up Chevy; then, the white fella says, “Boys, we’re paying our Pastor too much down at our Church.”
I guess it’s all a matter of perspective, and sadly, too many Churches have a “Lord, if you’ll keep’em humble, then we’ll keep’em poor” mentallity about thier Pastors.
Now, on the other hand, when a Pastor starts making six figures plus great benefits…then, we need to start asking ourselves if we’re going too far…if we should be handing out that kind of money in our day and time, and in my neck of the woods, that would be excessive, imho. Now, if your Church is in Manhattan, New York City, or in Los Angeles, or San Francisco; then, 100,000 dollars may not be excessive. It takes a lot to live in those places. But, some Pastors, and some high ups in the SBC make entirely too much.
Let me end by saying…Churches ought to take care of thier Ministers. To not do so would be a shame on that Church.
David
Shadrach,
I see your idea that the pastor should have a cap on debt as unworkable many times. If the church requires such a cap, they need to be prepared to pay catastrophic expenses. For example, I know a pastor who had to deal with both of his children having major, catastrophic illnesses with many long-term expenses involved. Thankfully, both children are well now.
It is my opinion that a church that requires such a cap from its pastor should impose the same requirement on its other leaders.
Rob,
This is a great topic.
I would say first that the pastor is not an employee of the church, but of God. The problem with pastors jumping ship too soon and the laity running roughshod over pastors stems, at least partly, from this wrong, secular view of the church.
As to the questions:
1) The fair compensation? Is this the right question? The correct compensation is double what the church would think to pay him. However, churches rarely take this stance. I know of two that have, and the pastors are some of the most godly people I know, especially in the stewardship of their income.
1 Tim 5: 17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.”
2) The vehicle should do two things: 1) maintain respectability and keep the pastor above reproach (meaning not above the class of vehicle commonly seen on the road in his community); and 2) allow him to effectively perform visitation without worry every week.
1 Tim 3:2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach…respectable
2 Tim 4:5 As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
3) Not published but available to leaders of the church. It would be helpful to require the income and tithing record of the inquirer.
The idea that a pastor should take any pastorate regardless of pay is a popular notion. I have had many pastors give me the same advice. I happen to disagree, but am willing to listen to scriptural support for this position. It seems to me that we too often view others as more important than our family. We take great pains to disciple the church, but not our wives and children. We interrupt family night to attend to a member’s needs, but do we interrupt “church time” if our wives really need us? If we are the provider (1 Tim 5:8), then why would we take a position that we know from the outset will not pay for basic living expenses?
Colin,
You said everything that I am thinking!
1. As to “fair compensation” … It has been my experience that most church folk have something of a “separate scale” with regard to pastors. Somehow, they think that pastors need less income than everyone else … as if God shows up every evening to multiply the pastor’s loaves and fishes.
It never ceases to amaze me when people gasp at the idea of a pastor making $40,000 or $50,000 in income while guys at the auto factory make more than that, and drivers for UPS make twice as much!
Like Colin said … a church should think about what it wants to pay a pastor, then automatically double it. Stress will go way down, retention will go way up, and the body will be blessed.
2. I’ll be honest. Pastors in fancy cars bother me. Nothing sickens me more than a pastor in a Cadillac or Lexus in a community of Hondas, Chevys, and pick-up trucks. I drive a seven-year-old Montero Sport SUV. It’s paid for, praise God! Our family just down-sized from a mini-van to a gas-friendly Dodge Neon. What you drive does matter. People are looking. It is part of your witness.
3. We discuss salaries once a year during our one-time yearly “Stewardship Celebration.” People know what I make … I don’t care. But what I am careful to communicate is the difference between “total package” and actual spend-able income. Far too many churches (like the one where I serve previously as YM), dishonestly lump everything spent on a pastor into a “lump sum” package and make it appear that the pastor is receiving a lavish amount of money. And some (most?) people aren’t financially adept enough to understand the difference. So, for our staff members, we demonstrate only salary and housing amounts (and we make sure the church understands this is “before taxes,” so everyone automatically takes 25% off the figure). Health insurance and annuity are maintained in separate budget line items, away from salary.
And as a bonus … one of the best things we can do is weed out some of the “financial experts” from our stewardship committees/teams, and replace them with more simple, vision-filled, missions-going folk.
Budgeting and salaries should be matters of faith and vision, not just economics.
To all: Thank you for your comments…
To Lew: Somehow I believed you would be the first to respond
Some responses of mine (picked randomly while I think of them)
1. I really am a great skeptic of the mega-church model. No, not because I am “jealous” – I just believe that it has the potential to hide a lot of stuff that should not be hid – particularly in this area of staff salaries. Most mega-churches do not list staff salaries. I asked someone who was in the know at one why they did not. It was communicated to me that there might be a revolt. With that reason then, they are delaying the inevitable. I do believe that churches should share staff salaries, if but for that once a year. Most Corporations are required by law to divulge administrative salaries to stockholders. Our folks have “stock” in that our polity calls them “priests.” What this may mean is that there are some who will complain. We always have people complain – so what? It keeps accountability with checks and balances upon staff to the congregation – as where it should be.
2. I like Colin’s suggestion – that this is how churches “bless” their pastors. I like that term a lot better. I just wish someone would “bless” me with a scooter!
3. I will have to admit that my personal experience with ministers and automobiles have jaded my opinion. I worked as a “blue shirt” at one of our seminaries while attending there and noted the stark difference between faculty and administration perks. Most of the faculty drove whatever they could afford – which was not very much. Administration never did without “the best” which rotated every year, from one purchase to the next, all on CP dollars (or it could very well have been a donor for the express purpose of supporting administration with new luxury autos). Of the one thing in culture, the “car” is a statement of “where you are at.” I just really believe that no matter where you are at in ministry, the comparison you should be making is not what everybody else in the parking lot has, but what is pleasing to your Lord.
3. Collin, I think I said in item #1 that salaries should be published no matter the size of the church for accountability. If there is nothing to hide, then hide nothing. All that requiring the income and tithing record of the inquirer would do is create division. Everyone recognizes those who support the work of Christ, and those who do not. We are also called to be “beyond reproach” – publicizing budget statements which include salaries are part of that process IMHO.
Rob
Rob,
As to your #3, I suggested that the inquirer be willing to furnish the same information he is after for the exact reason you stated- creating division. I have no trouble publishing anything, so long as the information isn’t sought for the purpose of creating division. I happen to think requiring the inquirer’s salary and tithing information (both of which should be known, esp. if the church is basing the pastor’s salary on the avg. of all salaries) will weed out those who are intent on fostering division with the pastor’s salary and tithing records.
Furthermore, I do not see the purpose in publishing the information. What does it do for the kingdom? How does it actively teach the gospel? I think the wiser course of action is to have it available rather than oublished.
Thanks Collin for posting on this topic. I failed to say that your post #11 was really good in most aspects (as was my man Geoff – but then again, we are just amiable in that we agree a lot).
Let me clear up a couple of points:
1)If a church publishes budgets that reflect salary and perks for staff, then no one will need to inquire. I would submit that in fact churches that do not post such information through a budget plan or otherwise are just inviting division, not suspending it. The Kingdom is about transparency and openness – of doing things differently for the world to know that because we serve a great King, we have nothing to hide. Too many sins fall through the cracks behind closed doors and “executive session”. Inquirers are often intimidated by staff circling the wagons for themselves or the boss, not really willing to release information to a member which should be released to them. So no, what publishing does is keep inquiring minds from further inquisitiveness – it is already out in the open for all to see.
2.Tithing information is a separate topic. It should be kept private, from the pastor to the poorest of members. It truly is that one thing that should be between a giver and God (and the church treasurer).
Rob
Rob,
I agree completely with your comment in #15. Wise, sage words.
David
PS. I also wish that the parsonage that I live in had a huge, hot tub. Pastors need hot tubs.
Rob, Colin, David, & others,
Very good comments.
A pastor does not want to negotiate his salary, but he has to make a living, provide for his family, pay his bills. Someone said, “Let him live by faith.” A pastor replied, “When I go to pay my bills, they don’t want faith, they want cold hard cash.”
Ken said, “There are almost always some thinking laymen who will see to it that the church does what is right.” Maybe in churches where you have served; and God bless them. But many smaller churches do not have such “thinking laymen.” Some have never thought of this issue and just assume everything is fine.
To any laymen reading this – check about the pastor’s salary and how long since he has gotten a raise. Speak up about the pastor’s compensation in business meeting, your pastor won’t. Ask if your pastor and staff’s salary are adjusted for inflation each year. Ask if the church is sending anything to GuideStone, over and above his salary, for retirement. Share 1 Timothy 5:17-18; Galatians 6:6; and 1 Corinthians 9 with the church. Sometimes all it takes is one layman to speak about this matter, and the church will do what is right.
When a pastor is struggling financially to take care of his family, he will probably not bring it up to the church. Instead, he will just quietly leave. Churches, if you want to keep your pastor, make sure you take good financial care of him and his family.
I know there are excesses. But from my perspective, most churches could do a better job taking care of their pastor and staff. My preacher dad used to say, “Every time I’ve seen a church raise their giving to missions or raise their pastor’s salary, God has blessed that church.”
David R. Brumbelow
Rob
I get up fairly early (most of the time)… part of my morning routine is to get a 1 cup serving of Fiber One cereal, a 1 cup serving of orange juice (lots of pulp), and sit in front of Google Reader to see what’s happening in the blogosphere.
Bernard
I really did not intend to suggest that bi-vocationalism was the answer. I don’t think that bi-vocationalism works in the traditional sense either. I was suggesting uni-vocationalism. I just don’t think that the “pastorate” is a vocation.
It’s actually funny how our views are so completely different. I actually believe that the “pastorate” as a vocation (in the traditional sense) is one of many things that limits the ultimate maturity of the Church, and thus, limits the growth of the Church.
But as you’ve pointed out, the way that Paul did it, and urged us to follow, just doesn’t work.
God’s Glory,
Lew
As an anonymous blogger very critical of the pastoral and lay leadership at FBC Jacksonville, I wanted to chime in here.
I believe that no pastor of any church should be paid a salary that the finance or search committee, or the pastor himself, would feel the need to keep secret from the church. At my blog I have been making the point that at all levels of our society we have recognized that transparency in organizational financial matters is absolutely necessary to ensure that funds are spent in the best interests of the mission of organization and not to benefit the select few at the top. Secrecy breeds mistrust, and also fosters misuse of funds.
At our church the total compensation package of the pastor is a not easily obtained, but is reported to be in excess of $400,000 annual…and our pastor accepted a $307,000 land gift 2 weeks after arriving from one of our donors and he and wife drive luxury autos: a Jaguar and Lexus.
Despite the pastors staunch defenders saying its not, it IS a stumbling block for many to see a pastor living and being treated as a king with gifts, living in a million dollar home, driving luxury cars, especially when he counsels other pastors to NOT do these same things in his own book currently being used at our seminaries to train young pastors.
Sorry, I provided the wrong hyperlink to my blog. This post contains the proper hyperlink to the FBC Jax Watchdog blog.
Rob,
An edit on comment #14- I have no problem “making available,” not “publishing.”
As to transparency, I understand your argument, I just do not agree with it. (Though on tithing, I understood the issue to be one of openness of the pastor’s salary and tithing record.) On transparency, I hear a lot about it, but no one to my knowledge has tried to make a biblical case for total transparency. I do not agree with you at all that the Bible teaches it. For, why would you not then throw your pearls to swine? Why would you have to modify behavior in order to keep a weaker brother from stumbling? Why would there be need for prudence if everything was an open book? There will one day be total transparency, but that is the not yet. The already is that we are human, and human proclivity is one towards misunderstanding. Prudence in the church often times requires the church staff to prevent misunderstanding by being judicious with information. For instance, does everyone need to know that the church is helping Mr. Smith pay for counseling because he can’t control his internet viewing problems? Or does complete transparency only regard certain issues?
I am not in favor of being aloof or withholding information from leaders in the church and active church members. But look at our dear brother above. He has made it his God-assigned role to make one brother’s life miserable because he doesn’t agree with his salary. His issue isn’t openness, it is the possessions and pay. I would like to see a biblical case for the transparency you espouse and the role of prudence in relation to transparency. Only then I may be able to convert to your theory of openness.
Here’s my 2cents about this article and some of the comments:
*Bivocational ministry is a great thing, but it isn’t always practical. It isn’t THE ONLY Biblical model. I find Lew’s logic a bit flawed:
Though Paul was a “tentmaker,” he indicated that he had the right to earn his living off the gospel if he so chose (1st Corinthians 9:13-15).
Paul also had the right to marry, which he forfeited (1 Cor 9:5). Does that mean all preachers should also be single?
*Missionary’s salaries and pastor’s salaries are apples and oranges. An ISC/Journeyman makes 600/month plus benefits (housing/travel/medical). This is actually fine for many parts of the world, but I wouldn’t want to live on that in the States. As an independent missionary, I live comfortably on my support–but I couldn’t live in the States on what I live on here.
*I believe churches should be transparent when it comes to staff salaries. My impression is that mega-churches are rarely transparent on this issue, which leads to abuse of God’s resources. I could be wrong–just my impression.
*I don’t think any of us want to state a specific amount that’s too high in terms of pastor’s salaries. Cost of living can vary greatly from State to State, so a number amount really isn’t helpful. Regardless, I think most of us would agree that there’s a line, and it gets crossed.
*A pastor’s salary should be enough to feed and provide for his family. If a church isn’t willing to do this, they don’t deserve a pastor (notice: I said “unwilling”; not “unable”–some churches can’t; but some just won’t).
I’ll chime in as a seminary-educated layperson…
A good rule of thumb for churches is to ask if they would do the job for the amount they are paying their staff. My guess is no. I was a member of a church that hadn’t given its pastor a raise in over five years…none of the congregation would have stayed at a job like that.
I don’t know that you could come up with hard/fast rules. The salary of the staff shouldn’t be an undue burden to the church, but neither should we run with the “he’s called” defense of poor treatment.
What does a person in the private sector with at least a master’s degree heading an organization with a $1 million plus budget earn? With supervisory responsibility over staff? Expected to be on call 24/7?
“Do unto others…” is a pretty good rule to follow in treating staff…if you have a business and you treat your employees better than your church treats staff, that would seem to be an issue to me.
Collin,
I believe you are confusing two distinct and separate roles in ministry. The need to “keep confidences” is vitally important in that it engenders trust and good will between those who are ministering and those folks who are the recipients of that ministry. Those who are going through trouble can testify to God’s good work in their own time – I cannot and will not share how I am working with them until they give me their permission, if ever. I think we all understand that limitation to transparency. And even that limitation has it’s exceptions – hurt or the threat of injury to another or self, or confession to molestation and child abuse – something that if Stephen Gaines had been adept to, Bellevue Baptist Church would be in better shape today.
The “transparency” that is spoken of here is about church finances. The man above would really come off as just another complainer without a leg to stand on if his church allowed membership complete access through the “published” printing of the church financials including staff salaries. As it is the folks have to guess. Now we proclaim that Baptist polity is superior to all other forms of church governance. Our polity is not a hierarchy, nor is it Presbyterian, but congregational. If the word means anything, it means that the people through a common vision bind together for the task of sharing and living the gospel through the Body of Christ (in this case the identified local church), with Jesus being the head of the Body. Part of that task is for the body to hold each part accountable. One part cannot say to another, “I have no need for you” for that would not be working in harmony. I would submit to you that this is exactly the case when churches (predominantly the largest around us) go cowboy on Baptist polity and are not transparent about church finances including salaries. What you seem to be suggesting here is that these largest churches are saying, “give us your money, but we are not going to tell you what we are going to spend it on.” It seems to me the corporate world is far more ethical these days than even the church of God.
Rob
David
You said, “What does a person in the private sector with at least a master’s degree heading an organization with a $1 million plus budget earn? With supervisory responsibility over staff? Expected to be on call 24/7?”
And thus the problem. Our salaries for pastors has little to nothing to do with whether or not the person is a “pastor”. It has much to do with heading the local organization, being a supervisor of staff, and being on-call 24/7. If a local group of people find it necessary to pay someone to do these things (plus), fine, pay him a salary. But we should recognize that none can be found or proven by scripture and most of the more biblical “job” functions are things we all ought to be doing ourselves.
Bernard (in addition to my previous reply)
Also, I think Kevin was correct in saying that comparing Missionary and Pastor salaries is like comparing apples and oranges. My reasoning is a little different though. In most cases the missionaries are unable to “work” in the international field. As far as I’m concerned Paul has a classification for those kind of people… basically “If you *can* work, then work”.
If it turns out that a international missionary is able to find a job locally to his area, I believe he should do so. Plus, what’s the harm in a pastor or missionary actually working in the public? Seems like he could do more good than harm if he actually had a face with lost people.
But that means we should also stop expecting him to run a small business (i.e. church) on the side. Something I highly doubt Paul was envisioning when he told us that we should all work with our hands.
God’s Glory,
Lew
P.S. It’s 1AM, my dogs woke me up to go outside, so forgive any typo’s or nonsensical speech.
Rob,
What you seem to be suggesting here is that these largest churches are saying, “give us your money, but we are not going to tell you what we are going to spend it on.”
I do not mean to suggest this at all. In rereading my comments, I have been less than consistent in regards to my original #3. My apologies. I do agree with Geoff’s comment #12, answer #3. His suggests controlled release- meaning release with explanation, which I believe is vitally important.
On transparency, I have no confusion in my mind between the two distinct and separate roles of ministry. Rather, I am trying to discern a biblical argument for “transparency,” which you are stating is actually “financial transparency,” and the argument that churches should do it. This “should” denies prudence in church affairs, and applies a blanket admonition for churches. I simply remain unconvinced there is a biblical argument here.
As far as the pastor’s salary is concerned, I produced a passage of scripture that directs churches to consider their pastors worthy of double honor. This is a passage about financial remuneration. Why, then, do we continue to produce advice on salary when this should be the guiding principle?
Thanks for the discussion.
Rob – hope you don’t mind me bringing up this topic, related to ministerial compensation, but I would like to hear what your posters think of this question:
Is there any size or type of gift that would be unethical for a pastor to accept? If so, what size or type of gift would that be? For the pastors that post here: what are your OWN personal ethics on what gifts you would and would not accept from church members or others outside of the church?
Watchdog,
I think your question and your experiences in your church are just so far outside the realm of possibility and frame of reference for all of us pastors who write and visit here.
Most of us live on $30 – $60 K a year, drive humble vehicles, and make our own payments on stuff. We don’t get “big gifts” like the ones you’re talking about, and could not (frankly) imagine doing so. The mega-church pastor experience is another universe from the 99.9% of all of the other pastors (like me) who serve faithfully in their churches and communities.
Though my church did give me a brand new Cub Cadet riding lawn mower for “Pastor Appreciation Day” a couple of years ago.
You don’t think that’s too much to accept, do you?
I jumped over to your link and read some of your stuff. My advice to you is pretty simple. If you are so displeased with the mega-church “way of doing things,” then go to a small church. Because the mega model and methodology is not going to change. Such is the problem when large piles of money accumulate in a single location.
David Eaton,
I wish that more laypeople thought like you about Pastors and salary. Thanks for being a thoughtful member of your Church.
I just want to say that I’m very thankful that my Church takes care of my family and me financially, and I’m very glad that they do. I’m able to minister and study and pray and reach out without having to work forty or more hours a week at a job. It frees me to be able to do more. There would be many, many things that I would not be able to do if I had to work to support my family.
And, Geoff and some others in here are exactly right…most Ministers barely pay basic bills. Most Ministers have the oldest cars in the parking lots. Teenage members drive better cars than the Pastor does in most churches. And, I have been at Churches where I did not get a raise for years, and the Pastors before me did not get a raise for years. I have also worked for weeks without a day off in the past. In fact, at my last Church, I worked for 5 solid weeks without a day off during on stretch. 5 weeks! And, believe me, I’m not a workaholic. I like my days off. And, I’m sure that many Pastors in here could say the same.
I really need a big, hot tub at my Parsonage if there are any rich people reading this who could donate.
Also, I was given a slightly used, Chrysler Concorde one time as a gift from a wealthy family in one of my churches after thier Mother died. It was her car, and it was fully loaded. I was very glad to accept the keys to that car. But, as Geoff said, Watchdog, most of us out here in the real world dont get huge gifts and make six figure salaries as Ministers. I’m just glad when someone buys my lunch. Anyone???
David
PS. With an online screen name like Watchdog with a blog devoted to checking out the Pastor and the staff, I’m glad that you dont belong to my Church.
Hi Volfan and Geoff – great insights you have, and thanks for sharing them. I do see your point Geoff about how the mega pastor experience is such an “outlier” when it comes to salary and gifts it is hard for the average pastor to even contemplate those circumstances.
Volfan – why would you be glad that I don’t belong to your church? Despite what you think I’m not a judgemental person, sneaking around snooping at our “Pastor and staff”. Quite the contrary – the lay leaders and pastor are abusing our church and I’m not sitting idly by “waiting for God to handle it”…I’m shining light on OBVIOUS abuses, and I’m doing what I can to make people in my church and the SBC aware of the abuses and hypocrisy of our pastor and lay leaders in the hope that God will do something – using his people to effect change once they understand what is going on. I would say this Volfan: if you WERE in the position of our pastor I would well imagine you would NOT have done the things he did, but IF you did, I think you would do so knowing full well you subject yourself to unbelievable scrutinty in your community and denomination. Right?
I pastor a small church (150ish) in Middle Tennessee. I once had a fellow give me a hand-made knife for my birthday, that’s about it. I’ve been here 3 years and got a couple of raises since I came. (I came on the field making 20k, the church quadrupled and now I make 30k). I drive a 99 Cadillac Catera (paid $3150 for) and my wife drives a 03 Ford Windstar (paid $6000). We bought both within the last 8 months and the Windstar is paid off and the Caddy will be paid off next month
I love my church and they tolerate me, but I don’t depend on them for a paycheck, my faith and trust is in God. They don’t “pay” me, they support my ministry, my service to them in the name of the God who called me. If this is where God has called me, I’ll wait tables if I’d wait tables if I had to in order to be where He wants me.
Too many churches hire a pastor when they need to recognizing the call of God on a man’s life and ministry.
In His Light
J
Watchdog,
If there are abuses in your Church, then why doesnt the rest of the Church agree with you? If all the things that you say are so terrible at FBC Jacksonville, then why is the whole Church not in an uproar over them? Why does such a tiny number of you get upset over these alleged abuses, and yet the rest of the Church seemingly does not?
Watchdog, I’ve seen small groups of disgruntled people in many Churches cause a lot of division and strife over things that the rest of the Church did not see as something as bad as they did. Yet, that small group would not let it go, and they caused much harm to the Churches they were in. Geoff has given some wise advice. Maybe it’s time to move along when someone is not happy at their church, nor with the way they’re doing things. Maybe the best thing to do is just to find somewhere else to go that does believe more like you, and then get over it.
David
PS. One more thing, Watchdog, I went over to your blog….I find it very interesting and very concerning that you and your commenters all remain anonymous as you state some very ugly things about your Pastor and other Church leaders. Why do you remain anonymous? Why dont yall tell who you are?
J,
I think I would like to be a member of your church and have you as a pastor. Blessings to you and your church.
Roger,
Thanks. You’ll have to excuse the typos…it was lunch and the cable company was here. I love your website. Our church site was hacked by some germans and used to send out spam, so we’re in the process of rebuilding.
volfan,
I dig your blog (and name), but you’re wasting your time on Jax. There are some people who feel their calling is in being the holy minority even when they’re wholly in the minority (no offense Jax). I don’t know what Mac is or isn’t doing down there, but I visit watchdog sites from many churches very often. I do it to try and gain insight on how to avoid problems in my ministry (ie like publishing my salary, the church votes on it every year anyways).
Just a different thought…when I surrendered to the ministry I’d never met a “full-time” pastor. My Grandfather and his buddies were the only pastors I knew and they were/are all bi-vocational. I can get very discouraged with things at church and in the blogosphere, but then again…I get to study the Word of God all day, everyday…I can put up with a few headaches for that!
In His Light
J
J,
You must be a homegrown TN boy to like my online, screen name, and my blog name. Where in Middle TN do you live and serve? My Dad’s family are from Wayne County, and my wife has family in Williamson County. I also have some good friends that live in Clarksville.
And, you’re probably right about the Jacksonville thing. But, it’s a shame, aint it?
David
J,
You must be a homegrown TN boy to like my online, screen name, and my blog name. Where in Middle TN do you live and serve? My Dad’s family are from Wayne County, and my wife has family in Williamson County. I also have some good friends that live in Clarksville.
And, you’re probably right about the Jacksonville and Watchdog thing. But, it’s a shame, aint it?
David
I think that if a pastor wants to keep his salary private, he should also not know what his salary will be when he accepts the position. If God is leading, then he will provide, no? (Like that would ever happen)
I think full disclosure is best.
Hopefully, God will place a pastor in a church where the people want to bless his socks off, but the basic salary should be similar to the church’s demographic.
David,
You said it. We’ve had some difficult situations at my current pastorate (near Cookeville) due to the fast growth. Some big ducks don’t like it when they get some competition on the pond, if you know what I mean. I used Bellevue and Jax as two casestudies and tried to keep everyone focused on fighting to keep a friend instead of fighting to win an arguement. It worked for the most part, but its a shame when it happens. We went from 225 to 125, but the ones who left weren’t either side…they were the new christians caught in the middle. We’ve pulled through and reclaimed some of them, but many will probably not darken a churches’ doors for a long time. All because three of the “power-broking” families in the church didn’t like “all these new people”. I hate to tell them, but there’ll be alot of people in Heaven who won’t know that their grandpappy spit in the mortar of that building.
Volfan – I do understand what you’re saying, and I would expect a pastor removed from our situation to say what you said. I don’t mean that in a derogatory manner at all, its just that you are there and we, the members of FBC Jax, are here.
But I’ll answer you by saying this: I don’t judge the egregious nature of the pastor’s offenses based on how many people agree with me at a point in time. That wouldn’t make sense. When there are abusive pastors, whether they be financial or sexual abusers (not equating those two offenses – just that pastors who get into trouble seem to have trouble with those two areas) in large churches it can take time for the offenses to become known to the extent that those in lay leadership deal with the problem appropriately. Unfortunately there is a tendancy in mega churches for these offenses to be kept quiet and hushed while the abuse continues. We have a number of high profile cases of this in our city of Jacksonville, Florida.
The offenses we are concerned about at FBC Jax detailed in my blog are not “small”…and just as importantly they are not just a few in number. I do agree that a misstep here or there is not reason to blog. But if you read the blog, you’ll see that our pastor has been quite consistent in his abuses at our church. One after the other.
I’m happy to hear there is a pastor using our church and Bellevue as “case studies”…if you read on our blog of the actions of our pastor over the last 2+ years, it is an EXCELLENT case study for pastors to avoid problems.
J. Adam – I’m not sure if you meant that our problems are related to “big ducks” getting competition – I can assure you that is not the case at OUR church. We loved and embraced our pastor on his arrival and were ready to follow his leadership…then after about 6 months it was apparent we were being fleeced and fleeced good.
J,
Also, I’m sorry that you’ve had to go thru a power struggle. Some families tend to think that they own the Church, sometimes. You know, what’s really a shame is that before you go there, they’ll tell you that they want to grow and reach people. But then, when you’re growing and reaching people, then they’re upset about all the new people coming in and taking away their power. They dont really want to grow, and they ought to be honest about it right up front. What those Churches ought to do is start new Churches near them, or in an area that might need a Church, or start a different kind of Church to reach some different kind of people in their area. But, getting this same crowd to have that kind of vision is extremely difficult as well.
But anyway, Brother, God bless you. Hang in there.
Watchdog,
Why dont you and the others in your blog tell everyone…especially your Pastor…. who you are, and then maybe they would take you more seriously. I mean, if you aint willing to man up and tell who are, and stand behind your words and accusations, then how do you expect anyone to take yall seriously?
JAX,
No, I meant our church had some “big ducks”. It seems to me, of course I’m very distant from your situation, that a little transparency and communication could solve all your problems. This is what I’ve learned from FBCJ and BBC. I disagree with those on here who compare knowing the pastor’s salary with knowing anyone else’s. The church is held accountable before God for stewardship. I don’t see a thing in the world wrong with a pastor making 400k, if the congregation agrees that it is in their best stewardship to do so. I have learned to let nothing appear to be hidden and be as open as possible.
Hi Volfan – “Man Up”? Well, I personally choose to stay anonymous to the extent I am able to protect myself and my family from religous zealots who would like to harm me because they perceive me as attacking “the man of God”. You would be surprised in a mega church how many “nuts” there are that want to shut up people who dare question the pastor. And there have been some who have taken their concerns to the pastor and lay leaders, only to be removed from their positions with no explanation and being shunned by the church. So please, spare me the “man up” argument. I don’t wish to be taken seriously except to the extent that my concerns are valid or not valid. I realize anonymity has credibility issues, and I’m OK with that.
j.adam: You said:
“I don’t see a thing in the world wrong with a pastor making 400k, if the congregation agrees that it is in their best stewardship to do so.”
I agree! Of course my premise is that there is something inherently wrong with a pastor earning $400,000 from the tithes of God’s people – but certainly if it were known to all and there was no secrecy, then what is there to blog about? Take it or leave it, the pastor earns $400,000 so shut up, right? But my point is: if the church lay leaders who had to sign up to that amount of salary and the bennies – if they KNEW that their decision would be open and reviewed by the people giving the money, then they would NOT agree to a salary that size because of the outcry among people in the church. So while I guess I can’t point to scripture arguing the transparency issue, its just boils down to stewardship. If mega churches let the people freely know what the pastor salaries were and their bennie package (and required full disclosure of land gifts, and they had nepotism policies, etc), I maintain the salaries would be about 1/3 or less than what they are currently, and there would be more money available for ministry. And the funny thing is – there might even be more giving if the people knew how their money is spent.
Watchdog,
Dont get me wrong. I agree that a Pastor’s salary ought to be available for everyone in the Church to know. Every penny that’s spent by a Church ought to be accounted for, and the membership should have the availability to know how it’s spent. This should also be true of SBC entity heads as well, and for state Baptist convention leaders as well. Their salary should be known by anyone that wants to know.
Now, about the land thing. If Private Citizen Jones wants to give his Pastor a piece of land as a gift….what’s that to you, or anyone else? That’s between the Pastor and Mr. Jones.
David
Volfan – land gift. I have read you for several years on several SBC blogs and have a high regard for your views. That is why I am perplexed that you can’t see the ethics or lack thereof in a well-paid pastor accepting a huge gift from one of his church’s donors. Perhaps you should direct your question to a Senator Charles Grassley about “what’s wrong”. One of the practices that Grassley is investigating the televangelists for is the practice of the heads of these organzations accepting gifts given directly to them by donors of the ministry. They are already drawing handsome salaries from the ministry, and then they are are found to be accepting gifts directly from the donors! As far as a pastor goes – if he is drawing a $400,000 comp package from a church, and one of the donors comes to him with a gift of $300,000, would not the ethical, “high road” response of the pastor be to refuse the gift, and tell the giver that perhaps the Lord wants him to give it to the church so it can be a blessing to the church? In our pastor’s case he had been here only three weeks when the gift was “inked”, hardly enough time for a man to have great “love and affection” for the pastor, but that’s another story.
What if the head of the Red Cross accepted a gift worth a quarter of a million dollars from one of the main donors of the Red Cross – do you think he would be employed long by the Red Cross? But that’s part of the problem: private profit and non-profit corps have long understood the need to have gift policies governing all employees – the churches have not.
So you see nothing unethical in a pastor accepting a gift of this size? What if the pastor accepting the gift had published a book just 3 months after accepting the gift, and in the book he cautions other pastors against the dangers of accepting large gifts like “automobiles” from other Christians?
Watchdog,
I have been given gifts by my Church members in the past. I was given a car, as I stated earlier. I have been given new suits, money, books, and several hogs. The Church I’m at right now let’s me throw my trash in the Church trash cans so that I dont have to pay for trash pick up. I’ve never seen what individuals give to me as being unethical, and I really dont see how it would be. They have been blessed by God, and they want to be a blessing to their Pastor. I appreciate their generosity.
Watchdog, I really know nothing about the land gift of which you speak, and I know nothing about the salary of your Pastor. Also, I’m not in a mega church, so things dont transpire in such huge ways at my church as they do in a mega church. Thus, it would be very hard for me to comment on your specific situation, and I really dont feel it would be wise for me to continue on this road. This is something that you and your group and Pastor Brunson and his staff and FBC Jacksonville need to work out. I pray that the Lord will work in mighty, wonderful ways to resolve this conflict that yall are in, and I pray that Jesus will be truly glorified in this situation.
God bless,
David
I would say Watchdog that I do not have enough information to give you an honest answer. The crux of the problem is this: people are told to bless those who minister to them – yet how much is too much of a blessing? Your figure at the offset seems extravagant to me – but how am I to know? How much does land go for in South Florida? How much acreage is this? Would the Pastor be able to afford the land and the house if he did it by himself? What is a Pastor to say if a member in love gives him a gift, big or small?
It is hard for a Pastor to determine the size or extravagance of a gift. At the same time, it is hard for a Pastor to tell a member who has given a gift to keep it. We don’t know the anguish your Pastor went through when someone offered him the land (or if he went through any anguish at all). We do not know if he attempted to return or reject that gift. Now as a minister I would be required to show that size of gift on my taxes – that is unavoidable. But if someone gave me a gift and wished to keep it anonymous, I would have to honor that person’s wishes the best I could. “I am paying for my own house” is not a lie – and since the rest as you say is common knowledge, he is not in my opinion withholding the truth.
Short Answer: I do not know where that line is. For me, if someone handed my the keys to a decked out brand new Mercedes, I would decline the gift for many reasons, including my inability to support such a gift. A donor might very well have had many reasons to offer Dr. Brunson the land gift: a)a desire to keep a Pastor for long term – Max was considered a prize from FBC Dallas – and like any prize, one wants to keep it from straying too far – what better way to do so for the long term future of the church than to offer him a prized piece of property for him to put down roots?; b)It may well have been offered to sweet up the deal, “you come, and so and so will give you the land gratis to build your house on.” – If I was speculating, this would be my first thought.
I disagree with the mega-church model for many many reasons – this is one of them. Kingdoms (with a little k) are built, often not for the glory of God, but for personal glory. In my neck of the woods it was Paul Brooks and FBC Raytown that was the scuttlebut of heckling in the community – a fiasco that led to the repudiation of a daughter and grandchild who will not know a Dad or grandparents until her 18th birthday.
Rob
Rob and David – thanks for allowing me to joing the discussion here, and thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.
Take care!
“Pastors should never put a price on God’s call, which means that acceptance of a church should never be based on money. A pastor should not negotiate his salary and benefits, but accept what the church does for him.”
Coming in late here. But no. If a workman is worthy of his hire is still in the Scriptures, then a church that doesn’t practice that will have other issues with the authority of Scripture.
Then there’s that “less than an unbeliever” snippet. I’m thinking pastors are included in that.
I’m grateful for what the church does for me and my family. But it hasn’t always been so – or enough to live on. I’ve had to take advantage of the food pantry on occasion, had to borrow, had to let go our house, driven clunkers – to stay here. Been here 9 years now.
If I ever do leave here, I’ll be involved in my compensation to make sure that we do come in with enough to live on.
The excesses at the top end are far, far outweighed in my experience by what happens at the other end of the scale.
David Wilson
Just one more point (and to take this post to 50 responses) =
David Brumbelowe made this statement in #17 in response to Ken: “Ken said, “There are almost always some thinking laymen who will see to it that the church does what is right.” Maybe in churches where you have served; and God bless them. But many smaller churches do not have such “thinking laymen.” Some have never thought of this issue and just assume everything is fine.”
When I was in Oklahoma at a church in Stilwell (at least I think I was there at the time) a small church in Oklahoma called a Pastor and his family and moved them into the Parsonage. The church did not do an inspection previous to the family moving in, the treasurer feeling that everything was “okay” and the church needed to save some money. In October, the pastor went out one night for visitation, and his wife believed it was getting a little chilly, so she started up the gas furnace. The heat exchanger had a leak, which could have been found if the treasurer had went ahead and called for an inspection. Both the wife and daughter died of carbon monoxide poisoning because a church went criminal on a house inspection – something they would have never done if it was their own home.
Just thought I would throw that one in to see if anybody was home.
Rob
I was invited to be the pastor of a church in rural GA once that had a pastorium. They took us out to see it saying “it hasn’t been used in a while.”
It was a dump. My wife rode home in tears. They went ahead and voted. 50-2 to call.
I declined. Still makes me angry.
Trust God, but verify people.
David
The consensus seems to be that mega churches are the ones who are guilty of concealing salary information from the congregation. I wonder if there is a connection between attitudes that must change for a church to grow to mega church status and the church having little interest in knowing the salary of the pastor? Perhaps as a church grows larger it becomes comfortable with delegating some tasks such as financial administration to committees etc.
David Wilson: I read your post concerning having to drive the clunker, let your house go, etc. I was surprised and slightly upset that a church would treat a pastor in such a manner.
I believe that ministers should be given a more than livable wage. There is nothing wrong in a church giving a minister the best they can give in terms of wages and even perks. I don’t think a minister and his family have to take the vow of poverty. I wouldn’t and neither should we expect this of those who choose to lead the church.
Rob: Comment 50 bothered me even more. That just should not be, even in a small church.