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A Contract With Southern Baptists – Part 1
Posted by Guest Author in Baptist Life
Dave Samples, our recent contributor who wrote the “Online Voting” post, has been working on his latest contributions to the Southern Baptist blogging world … a seven-part series that he’s calling, “A Contract With Southern Baptists.”
His series will follow the format of an acronym as he spells out the word B-A-P-T-I-S-T. He describes the seven principles of his “contract” as “Seven non-negotiables necessary for revitalization.” Here is what Dave had to say about his work on this series:
“I believe that we need much work in all seven of these areas. I have a brief—yet passionate rant to go with each non-negotiable … I am truly interested in reform where needed in order to make us more effective. I guess I was thinking when I began, “What would I proclaim to the convention if I had the opportunity to deliver a message?” I, like most of the pastors, will never have that opportunity…and so I thought I would write it down and post it for both of my readers…lol.”
Enjoy … and tell Dave what you think.
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Baptists Must Be . . .
Based in Humility – A necessary foundation – 2 Chronicles 7:14; Psalm 51:16-17; Matthew 18:4, 23:12; Philippians 2:1-8; James 4:6,10; 1 Peter 5:1-6
It couldn’t be clearer: God resists the proud! Our denomination, our leaders, our pastors, our churches . . . we’re all guilty of believeing that we are God’s gift to the world. We arrogantly believe that we have a corner on the truth and unfortunately for us, “The Truth” (Jesus) seems to have left the building. “What is the source of your quarrels and conflicts?“, James asks (4:1). “You lust and do not have . . . you are envious and cannot obtain . . .” (v2). The conclusive answer to James’ question about conflict is: “God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble” (v6).
Our arrogance is no less than an offense to God. We must humble ourselves doctrinally and acknowledge the very real possibility that we may not know it all. How about attempting to humbly listen to those with whom we differ? We just might learn something new about a God who is far greater than our ability to comprehend. We must humble ourselves relationally and begin to serve each other rather than competing. We need to discover the joy giving to each other and submitting to the will of those that we may consider inferior. We must humble ourselves corporately and consider the reality that we are not the only ones God chooses to use.
This may be a surprise to some but . . . The “Kingdom of God” is bigger than “The Kingdom of Baptists”. We must humble ourselves spiritually and confess our lack of maturity. We must repent of focusing on primary leadership positions and pushing and shoving our way to the head table. “‘Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus . . . He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross” (Philippians 2:5,7).
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Dave,
I couldn’t agree more. If we are humble, yet the SBC still falls, then we would still win – in God’s eyes (I believe). I’m sure most here would agree with this post, it’s hard not to.
God’s Glory,
Lew
The Pursuit Online Store
SBC Impact,
Not to be contentious, but….Isn’t someone telling someone else they need to be more humble really a sign of arrogance?
Blessings,
Tim
Tim,
I’m the first to admit my arrogance…but I’m working on it. I would confess that I’m a recovering Pharisee.
The truth is that my church and my community is in the process of digging out of the aftermath of a devastating tornado. I’ll not be posting much.
I think that if our sin disqualifies us from speaking into each other’s lives…then we will all have to remain quiet…
Perhaps we’re not proud at all in which case I apologize to anyone offended.
Being humble doesnt mean that we have to discard our doctrine(truth). What kind of statement is it that would say that we need to humble ourselves doctrinally?
And, the Kingdom of Heaven is bigger than the Kingdom of Baptists? Well, yea…but, are you saying that we should discard doctrines that we hold to be the truth…like believers baptism, or eternal security, or what?
I’m really having trouble following you on this.
David
Tim,
If you were to read the Scripture references that Dave gives as a “necessary foundation,” I believe it would be difficult to say what you are saying here. I don’t see this as “finger-pointing,” as much as a call for mutual repentance and humbling. Someone has to take the initiative. If you study the history of revival, both in the Bible, and in Church history, there is always someone who leads God’s people in calling us to humble ourselves.
Also, from what I gather, doctrinal humility was the path marked for us by our Anabaptist and Baptist forbears. They were known, more than anything else, by their commitment to the idea of “semper reformanda” and their strict adherence to the Word of God, and the Word of God alone. None of us, neither as individual interpreters, nor as a collective magisterium, is infallible or inerrant. That description belongs solely and exclusively to the Word of God. I believe it is a good thing that we remind ourselves of this every now and then.
Tim and David / Volfan007,
Based in Humility – A necessary foundation – 2 Chronicles 7:14; Psalm 51:16-17; Matthew 18:4, 23:12; Philippians 2:1-8; James 4:6,10; 1 Peter 5:1
I would recommend that you both read the Bible verses and then comment, using Bible verses as how you both profess to be Men of the Book. I get confused sometimes, does the Bible Point to Jesus Christ as being our Savior or Being Baptist?
Wayne Smith
Tim and David / Volfan007<
I get confused sometimes, does the Bible Point to Jesus Christ as being our Savior or to Being Baptist save us.
Wayne Smith
David Samples: I agree with what you have said and am grateful you eloquently said it. I am once again seeking God on this for myself. I verbally sign this contract. I would ask all to pray for me in this.
I also want to say that I am praying for your devastation with the tornado right now. I was raised in Kansas and now in Oklahoma. Tornado alleys. I wanted you to know that.
David Rogers,
Would you point out the doctrines of which we need to direct our humility
cb
“….Isn’t someone telling someone else they need to be more humble really a sign of arrogance?”
Is it hypocritical for a pastor to preach to others against sin?
No it is not Lin. So, when do you want your sermon?
cb
Lin has a good point CB. I would like you to address what she has asked. If it is not sin to preach about sin then why is this contract so offensive? It’s the same problem with Tom Ascol’s resolution which calls for humility and yet has been rejected by the same ones who are against the things brought out in this post.
Me,
You said, “I’m sure most here would agree with this post, it’s hard not to.”
Boy were you wrong!
Why are there some here who believe we should not be humble? Is it fear that we might have something wrong or just pure pride and arrogance?
CB or David (Volfan),
These debates seem to be frustrating to both sides. Perhaps the issue is one of definitions. What do you consider to be Doctrines (esp. Baptist)? Are you convinced that the Doctrines that the SBC has set are 100% true? If they are less than 100% wouldn’t it benefit us to be humble in hopes to reach 100%?
God’s Glory,
Lew
CB Scott,
Don’t you think these Scripture verses point to not being Prideful and Arrogant against other Christians?
Based in Humility – A necessary foundation – 2 Chronicles 7:14; Psalm 51:16-17; Matthew 18:4, 23:12; Philippians 2:1-8; James 4:6,10; 1 Peter 5:1-
2Ch 7:14 if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.
Psa 51:16 For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering.
Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise
Mat 18:4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 23:12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Php 2:1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy,
Php 2:2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.
Php 2:3 Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
Php 2:4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.
Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Jas 4:6 But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.
1Pe 5:1 So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed:
1Pe 5:2 shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly;
1Pe 5:3 not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock.
Wayne Smith
Let’s get back to the topic and show a little humility in the process.
Rob
Brother Dave Samples,
I will be praying for you as you minister to those in the tornado aftermath.
Brother David Rogers,
You write; I don’t see this as “finger-pointing,” as much as a call for mutual repentance and humbling. However in the article we see statements such as; We need to discover the joy giving to each other and submitting to the will of those that we may consider inferior. I do not consider anyone inferior. I do not consider any particular doctrine inferior to Baptist doctrine. Also we see a statment like; We must repent of focusing on primary leadership positions and pushing and shoving our way to the head table. and I ask myself a very pertinant question. What have we Baptist Identity folks been saying from the very start. If you remember, the Joshua Convergence stated specifically that statement. I, along with others, have been issuing the call that leadership is not something that is bestowed on young leaders just because they step up and say, ‘I want to lead’.
So, a call to humility I can live with. But to place people that do not agree with me as being arrogant and we need to repent from arrogance, just does not seem to humble in my opinion.
Blessings,
Tim
I’m still trying to figure out how to be humble over doctrine? And, what doctrines do we need to be humble about? And, what exactly is being humble about doctrine?
I understand that we should be humble people. Agreed.
And, I have no problem with repenting over something that I’ve done, but I really have a problem with repenting about something that I have not done….like owning slaves… I’ve never owned a slave…so, why should I repent over slavery?
David
Debbie,
I actually answered Lin’s question to the affirmative. It is not arrogance to tell someone else they need to be humble. Nor is it hypocritical to preach to others against sin.
I guess you are going to have to ask someone else your question. You will have to ask someone else about Tom’s resolution also. I supported it in 2006 and 2007. I still do.
My question is to David Rogers and Dave Samples, for that matter.
Dave presents a contract he will call “Seven Non-negotiables.” These “non-negotiables” are his principles. He has produced then. They cannot be very old or tested. Yet, within his “non-negotiables” he calls for Southern Baptists to have “doctrinal humility.”
Baptist doctrine has been around for a pretty long time. It has been tested by Scripture and time. It has cost the blood of our ancestors.
Dave is asking us to be humble with our doctrinal convictions based upon his personal observation of our need to do so.
Why is his “recent observation” of our need for doctrinal humility so overpoweringly superior to our believing our doctrine, that has been so long adhered to as biblical by so many humble men and women of God, necessary at this time? Why is it not just necessary for us to continue to tell the truth in love? Our doctrine is true. It is biblical. If not, prove where it is not.
Maybe it is Dave Samples who needs to consider humility. (See, Debbie, I agree with Lin. I have no problem with telling someone they need humility. Therefore, I am telling Dave Samples that maybe he needs to have humility in telling us something of his personal production is “non-negotiable.”)
Now, I return to my question to David Rogers and I will add Dave Samples if he would like to answer;
To what Baptist doctrines do we need to direct our humility? Which of our doctrines is in need of our doctrinal humility?
Is it: Bibliology, Theology Proper (Doctrine of the Trinity), Christology, Pneumatology, Anthropology, Hamartiology, Soteriology, Ecclesiology or Eschatology.
It very well could be our various ideas of Eschatology. The Lord, Himself, has said we will not know all of that at any time before it is all a complete reality. So if it Eschatology, Dave samples is right. We had all better exercise doctrinal humility there. But, I don’t think he (or David Rogers) is just in reference to our concepts of the End of Time.
I realize I did not present an exhaustive list of doctrines. Maybe I left the ones they want us to exercise doctrinal humility toward out of the list.
So, tell us guys, which doctrines do we need to exercise humility toward when we are seeking to tell people what Baptists actually believe? Are there any Baptist doctrines we can affirm as absolutes without saying something like; “In all humility, I really do not know if the Bible actually teaches this as I believe it as a Baptist. We just might be wrong.”
Is there anything we can stand on doctrinally and not be bigots, simpleminded fools, intolerant and unloving theological dwarfs, by saying; “This is the biblical truth and it is absolute and will never change?
cb
Lew,
It was Dave samples who said we need to exercise “doctrinal humility.” It is he who should identify those doctrines. Or, maybe you will?
BTW, no one has said we should not be humble. That is not the issue in any way.
The humility issue is one of which Dave Samples raised. It relates to “doctrinal humility” alone. We are simply asking which Baptist doctrines do we need to exercise humility toward?
Surely we all will agree we must exercise “personal humility.” (Of which, I am greatly lacking)
cb
CB et al,
To name a particular doctrine, and say we need to be humble regarding that doctrine, would defeat the whole idea behind what Dave is saying here, if I understand him correctly. Humility is a general attitude of recognizing we have not yet arrived, and we are open to being taught by others, provided it is all done in submission to the authority of God’s Word and the Lordship of the Holy Spirit in our lives. I, for one, am quite confident that my own doctrinal beliefs are not perfect, and that there are most likely many areas where I can still learn more. If I already knew which areas those were, then I would have no need for someone to teach me. So, to say this doctrine or that doctrine is where we need to have humility is beside the point.
That is not to say that there are not certain doctrines on which practically everyone who accepts the authority of God’s Word, and confesses Jesus as their Lord, is in agreement. My degree of certainty on those doctrines may be greater than on others. But, even in my relative certainty, there is still room for humility.
It seems to me like several of you are getting tripped up over the whole concept of “identificational” or “corporate repentance.” I think that a study of the following passages would help to show the biblical basis for this:
Isaiah 6:5, Jeremiah 14:20, Daniel 9:1-20, Nehemiah 1:4-11.
David,
You are now saying we all need to practice “personal humility.” I agree. The problem here is Dave was specific in saying we need to practice “doctrinal humility.” Then you spoke of the “doctrinal humility” of our Anabaptist and Baptist forbears. Again that is beyond the biblical mandate for us to practice personal humility. You, as was Dave very specific.
Our question was in no way out of bounds as it relates to the specific case of our need to be doctrinally humble as part of Dave’s “Non-negotiables.” Which, BTW, might call for a little humility on Dave’s part, wouldn’t you think?
With all the humility I can muster, I must say your comment in #20 looks much like a “crawfish” exercise to me on your part.
cb
David Rogers,
Re: Comment #21
Add “Straw-man building to the charge of crawfishin’
With humility, of course:-)
cb
I sense (and I could be wrong, we’ll have to wait for Dave to clarify) that Dave’s intention was to point out that we are to be humble (personally) and that humility should be reflected in how we think about our doctrine.
Apart from this conversation I have never heard of any subcategories of humility. This is beginning to sound like a Red Herring.
God’s Glory,
Lew
Lew,
You have never spoken a more true word in your life.
It is obvious Dave coined something new when he spoke of “doctrinal humility.”
A Red Herring indeed, to go along with David’s crawfish and straw-man.
We might as well have a picnic.
cb
cb
Is it “humility” to know Christ’s commandment, yet refuse to proclaim it? Maybe we ought to be a little more humble about the gospel. The Universalists, you know, read the Bible differently. Many of them are intelligent folks. Some of them were once Southern Baptists. Once they believed what we believed, but starting from exactly the same place that we occupy now, they concluded that all will ultimately be saved. Would we be so arrogant as to tell them that we know that they are wrong? The we know that we are right? Are we so confident in our exegetical abilities over theirs?
No, to come to understand Christ’s commandment is to be under obligation to teach it. It is to be under obligation to practice it. Ultimately, this IS humility, for who would be so arrogant as to tell Christ that we will not be faithful to teach disciples to observe all that He has commanded us?
We must humble ourselves doctrinally and acknowledge the very real possibility that we may not know it all. How about attempting to humbly listen to those with whom we differ?
And comment threads on this blog of late demonstrate this point beautifully. In fact, this comment thread does it quite well, too.
Someone issues a legitimate call for humility, and look at the responses. “How dare you tell us to be humble?! You are arrogant for even saying this!” It just shows why this post needed to be written in the first place.
SBC Impact, you are failing at the very goals you set out to achieve for this blog. Your “purpose” is not being met, and your “standards” are not upheld by your most vocal commenters. Yet the administrators of this blog just wink at it, and let it continue on.
When I, and others, have issued very clear calls for civility and humility, we have been mocked and slandered. Then, the thread just gets shut down without anything being done to address the situation. And as soon as a new thread opens up, it starts all over again.
What will it take, SBC Impact, for you to realize what is really going on here? How many more insults need to be handed out, how many more arrogant comments need to be made, how many more people need to be slandered before you finally see it for what it is?
This post is spot on, and should be heeded.
Looking back over my last comment, it really is that simple: I will not disobey Christ in order to impress you with my “humility.”
CB,
It is difficult to gage authorial intent when the author is not present.
The semantic wrangling seems to be over the term “doctrinal humility.” Perhaps I am a simpleton, but I took that to mean “holding to a truth position with certitude, yet a willingness to learn more.” I gathered that from the context of the totality of the post.
However, I just don’t know. He is not here to discuss it right now. I am certain he will clear it up in his time. Let’s grant him some patience, and pray for his folks while he ministers to them.
There are doctrines that I am willing to die for – the sovereignty of Christ, and the inerrancy of the Scriptures being two of them. I don’t think professors have to be men to teach Hebrew to seminary students – but I am certainly being humble about that
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By the way, it was great to meet you at the Conference. Somehow that kindly face makes your posts more meaningful for me.
Rob
CB Scott,
What was your purpose of being part of the Memphis Declaration???
Wayne Smith
Personally, I like the term “doctrinal humility.” It seems to get at what several others have already mentioned on this thread. First, it does not mean that we don’t know anything. We have to trust that God has clearly revealed some things to us. There is a huge common faith that virtually all evangelical believers hold, because these truths are clearly revealed in scripture, in many places and in a plethora of ways. However, “doctrinal humility” does mean that we don’t know everything about anything. Our perspective is too limited as finite, fallen, and fallible people. God has not revealed everything to us (cf. Isa 55:8-9; John 16:12); therefore, our perspective is too limited to know everything there is about any doctrine. We have enough to lead us to faith and obedience (John 20:31; 2 Tim 3:15), but we still have much to learn about God and His ways. As soon as we think we have complete knowledge and have arrived totally, it betrays an arrogance that keeps us from being humble and teachable.
Second, “doctrinal humility” also intimates that the truth that we do know, that God has clearly revealed to us in His word, we should teach it and preach it in love (Eph 4:15). Our model should be the One who was “full of grace and truth” (John 1:17). Our Lord Himself was “gentle and humble in heart” (Matt 11:29), even in His perfect holiness with sinful humanity. Grace and truth should always be kept in balance with each other. Unfortunately, too many Christians have more of a reputation of being full of “truth” than of “grace.” As was overheard by some unsaved students at a secular university, just after a noted Christian apologist had brilliantly cut his questioner to shreds and humiliated the student before the entire audience, “I don’t care if the *** is right, I can’t stand his guts!” The apologist may have won the battle with his truth, but he lost a bigger war because it wasn’t couched in grace. A little bit of gentleness and humility of heart would help.
Let me see if I can clear things up a bit…
By “doctrinal humility” I simply mean the gracious and respectful listening and considering of the views of others. It’s an attitude of grace not an attitude of compromise. Someone has defined humility as “strength under control”. It’s in this case the ability to be right without having to destroy someone to prove it. Take for example the diversity that Baptists have had for the past 400 years in the important doctrine of soteriology. Some are Calvinists, some are Arminians, and some are confused. Baptists have agreed to disagree for quite some time. Humility would cause us all to listen carefully to each other and to see if we can at least discover where we’re all coming from. The Bible is used by both to support their views. Common sense would indicate that perhaps there is truth on both sides. I know…now I sound postmodern.
Paul addressed a doctrinal debate in his day over the eating of food sacrificed to idols. He said, “Now regarding your question about food that has been offered to idols. Yes, we know that “we all have knowledge” about this issue. But while knowledge makes us feel important, it is love that strengthens the church. Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much” (1 Cor. 8:1-2, NLT). He closes out the “love chapter” with this thought, “Now we see things imperfectly as in a cloudy mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely” (1 Cor. 13:12, NLT). So this perhaps is all about speaking the truth in love, while at the same time considering the possibility that maybe we can still learn something. I grant that I don’t have the intellect or the writing prowess of many of my brothers. I’m just a simple pastor in Colorado who wants to be effective in proclaiming the Gospel of Christ.
Dear All,
No, as one member of that “administrative” team (and only speaking for myself) I do not believe that the questions that have been discussed in this thread are irrelevant, nor in *most* cases are mean spirited. Does “doctrinal humility” mean watering down the gospel, or “secular tolerance?” There is enough ambiguity in the original post to raise that question, and all related questions pertaining thereto. Like Bart said, if I am unwilling to proclaim the gospel , I am not humbly being submissive – in this case to the Lord Jesus. At the same time, I am to have the “mind of Christ” who “humbly submitted himself to death on a cross.” So – whatever positions I come to from the Word as truth, I better hold them in a humble position, for I will be held to account not by fellow believers on a message board, but the Lord Himself. Now that is a humbling thought.
So – less barbs please – more humility and more love. I remind all of 1 Corinthians 13 and the admonition of Paul: “And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.” One can hold to the correct perspective and still be wrong.
And by the way – also keep to the topic.
Rob
Sorry Dave – you answered the question as I was posting.
Rob
Dave,
I waited as Rob asked of me.
You have cleared up the question.
You were calling for humility. The use of “doctrinal humility” did, in fact, raise another idea. Kevin Peacock did not really argue for a doctrinal humility. He argued for humility, plain and simple.
Others just wanted to take up the sword against people they don’t like.
A call for personal humility is different from a call to a doctrinal humility which has not and probably cannot be defined.
I struggle with humility as a Christ-Follower. It is a constant battle. There are ingrained, personal reasons for that, but that is not the topic of this post.
With all of my heart I believe our theology is as close to the Scripture as possibly can happen in human existence.
I also believe we as Baptists must keep an humble attitude about what God has given us. Stories of our pride are in the millions. That is one reason I pray that this year our convention passes the Regenerate Church Membership resolution. Our pride in numbers has become an idol. We should be ashamed and repent.
Humility is lacking within our convention. Any honest follower of Christ can see the truth of that. Baptists have been given a great gift theologically, but we have become so personally proud in the having of money and numbers that we have very possible failed to humble ourselves properly before the Lord to tell the truth in love.
The Apostle Paul is dead. I realize I do not take his place as a theologian, but I do take his place as “chief of sinners.”
Therefore, even though I know our theology is biblical, I also know my personal humility toward others is a miserable shambles.
God has given us the truth of His Word. In humility we must proclaim it unashamedly in love, knowing that only by His grace do we have any truth whatsoever.
It is within the personal humility of having truth I do not deserve that my battle lies, not within the truth of doctrine itself.
My failure to share the truth in love as often as I have opportunity should humble my heart to sack-clothe and ashes. Shamefully, I admit it does not always do so.
The need for humility is constant, I must confess. Otherwise, I am a miserable liar.
The fact that God has given us the truth He has should drive us to our knees in thankfulness, humility, and a willingness, as had Isaiah before us, to say; “Here I am Lord, send me.”
cb
CB Scott,
AMEN AMEN AMEN
You have just Hit the Nail Squarely on its Head. You have Identified ALL of US Sinners. As Paul said I am the Chief Sinner. The Baptist Doctrine is Sound as long as it does not add to or take away from God’s Holy Word (Bible). Being Humble, not Prideful is where we should always be for the Gift of God’s GRACE. We don’t deserve it.
I’am Proud to call you a True Blue Brother in Christ’s Name.
Wayne Smith
CB,
I could never have been so eloquent nor so precise my own self.
I believe that the problem in the discussion is a misunderstanding of the term “humble.” To be humble does not mean to be indecisive, weak, easily swayed, or soft. To be humble about something does not mean it is unimportant. Dr. Gray Allison founded Mid-America Seminary. Dr. Gray has never been accused of being compromising in his doctrine, but he has been known as a man of grace and humiltiy. David Roger’s father was a strong leader because of his humble spirit – a quality I sense in David as well.
[...] discussion several days ago that took place on Dave Samples’s post here on sbcIMPACT! entitled “A Contract With Southern Baptists – Part 1,” there was some consternation expressed regarding the use of the term “doctrinal humility.” It [...]