Colin, I think you made the same point I did except I didn’t have the look up any of the words in my reply. I agree with the ‘on God’s behalf’ concept in as much as it falls in with the idea that what we do is in obedience to his word.

Perhaps my views can be dangerously close to determinism similar to how Arminianism is dangerously close to Open Theology.

Les

thanks for the interchange, have a great day

you said, “You refer to a couple of verses with a word translated as “for” and that is the bulk of your argument? I know you would agree with me that we should consider the whole counsel of scripture.”

Why did you say this? Your argument in regards to York was that he fell into a verbal trap, demonstrating the kind of thinking you illustrated in your post. I showed you that York’s words and gloss of his use of “for” is not only supported in the Bible, but a similar sentence can be taken verbatim. I do not think you are really reading my comments. I stated from the outset my contention and only point was with your use of York’s quote. I quoted something directly from the Bible, “bearing fruit for God,” and you said I was man-centered in my theology. I like to think of myself as biblically-centered, therefore God-centered. Since you now see my point was directly from the Scripture, you might want to be hesitant to call anyone’s theology man-centered in the future.

As far as this is concerned, “Do you truly believe that God expects you to do things that He hasn’t told you to do? Do you honestly believe that God wants you to go off on your own and come up with your own strategy to accomplish what only God Himself can do? “ you may have guessed already that I never made any point contrary to this.

I think it would be helpful, also, in a post like this to articulate the practical outworking of your thought in the corporate prayer life of the church.

I like you. We don’t agree about a lot of things but you’re okay in my book. You keep me on my toes and I appreciate you doing that.

You refer to a couple of verses with a word translated as “for” and that is the bulk of your argument? I know you would agree with me that we should consider the whole counsel of scripture.

Perhaps a more robust explanation of my point of view can be found in the same link I mentioned to Josh about the biblical view of a servant . I would commend it to you for more of my point of view about this.

The sense of how I am using the word “for” is that of “on our own.” As you rightly pointed out, that is never the case in what God calls us to do. We do things “on behalf of” the Father. We do not do things “for” in the sense of “on our own.”

We are God’s people. We are His chosen representatives on the earth to communicate the good news of Jesus Christ to a lost and dying world. My point is that we should not be doing this “on our own.” Nowhere in the Bible does God ever ask anyone to think up how to best serve God. Not Moses, not Gideon, not Abraham, not David, not Samuel, not any of the major or minor prophets, not Jesus, not Peter, not Paul: no one. To go “on behalf” on the Father implies that we do not go alone nor without instruction.

Do you truly believe that God expects you to do things that He hasn’t told you to do? Do you honestly believe that God wants you to go off on your own and come up with your own strategy to accomplish what only God Himself can do?

Even Jesus didn’t do that. Jesus said, in John 5:19, “The Son can do nothing of Himself but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.”

Jesus did what the Father instructed Him to do and so should we.

Allow me to suggest a reading assignment for you. Get a copy of Henry Blackaby’s “Experiencing God,” workbook and read Unit 2 – “Looking Unto God.” Dr. Blackaby explains the difference between God-centeredness and self-centeredness better than I can.

BTW, Dr. Blackaby is not a Calvinist. However, God used Dr. Balckaby and “Experiencing God” as a foundational tool to form my understanding of what it means to be God-centered.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Les

Your God-centered spirit is refreshing.

Josh,

You’re right about the difference between a servant and a hireling. However, we need to be careful to distinguish between the biblical view of servant and the 21st century view of servant.

Check out my previous post about the biblical view of a servant .

Regards,

Les

A servant works for his master, otherwise there would be no need for servants. Did not Paul do the things commanded Him for God?

Luke 17:10 “So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’”

We do deeds we ought for God, because He has given us over to Himself in order to do these works, “saints by calling” (1 Cor 1:2), and in His interest. Wallace in his Greek Grammar explains a dative of interest as “in the interest of,” or “for the benefit of.” He places 2 Cor 5:13 in this category:

For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are of sound mind, it is for you.

I also think the dative in Rom 7:4 falls in this category. The genitive “for” in 2 Cor 5:20 also has the gloss “on behalf of”, “for the sake of.” So there is clearly a sense where we do things “on behalf of God,” bearing fruit for God, as in His ambassadors, which was my original and only point.