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The Mormon Affair: How Far To Cooperate
Posted by Cyle Clayton in Uncategorized
Rick Warren took a lot of heat for his efforts at battling AIDS in Africa, not as much for the battle as for his associations in the battle. For asking Barack Obama, Bill Gates, and Bono (among others) to be part of his summit on the issue, he was criticized. Did he step over the line in cooperating with people who are not of “like faith,” and exactly how far should we cooperate with others as we do our work in this world?
Our local ministerial alliance is a loose nit group of 10 churches who primarily take care of transients who are passing through town. We do, however, sponsor two annual worship services. We have a community Thanksgiving service that rotates among the churches and a baccalaureate service at the high school each year. Our regular members are from SBC, United Methodist, Nazarene, Church Of God, United Pentecostal, and Nondenominational Charismatic churches. There’s always some tension in the air because of our beliefs, but nothing compared to “the Mormon affair.”
Whoever has a kid graduating gets to preach the baccalaureate service. In the ten years I’ve been involved we’ve had only two problems with that rotation. The first was a donnybrook between the Pentecostal and Nazarene pastors when they both had kids graduating. The next was when the Mormon preacher wanted to speak. It was so serious that we had a special called meeting; the kind of meeting Baptists have when the preacher is about to be handed his hat. In the end we decided that the Mormons could not speak, because they aren’t orthodox Christians. There was a limit to our cooperative efforts, and that was it.
Well, I couldn’t leave well-enough alone, so I asked the rest of them, “Just exactly what do we all believe? Do we really agree on Christ? Why don’t we talk about it like big boys and deal with our differences so we can decide how we can agree?” I listened as pins dropped. No one wanted to go there. We just wanted to make sure Joseph Smith wasn’t invited to Baccalaureate. So, I’ve adopted some rules for cooperation:
1st – I’ll do manual labor with anyone. I don’t call it non-spiritual, because everything I do is spiritual. Maybe I should call it non-proclamatory labor. For example, it didn’t matter which group showed up to mop our fellowship hall floor when we had 80 Katrina evacuees living in our gym.
2nd – I only worship with those who are orthodox Christians. That means I won’t be part of a worship service led by or participating with Mormons. It also means I am very iffy about the same with Roman Catholics, Oneness Pentecostals, etc., and I would probably walk out on Kenneth Copeland.
3rd – I only support orthodox ministries who have like-minded ministry goals. What that means, I don’t know. It used to be good enough to be Baptist. Not any more. Now I have to define myself as reformed or not, emergent or not, cessationist or not, drinking or non-drinking, etc.
As I read and talk with those inside our convention, it seems we have found many more ways not to cooperate than we have to cooperate. I wonder how right we are? So what about you? How far is too far? What rules do you live by when it comes to cooperation?
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Cyle,
I have been chair of our association’s missions committee and that caused me to define with whom we should cooperate. I have pretty much one rule, that I believe might sum up your three.
“I will cooperate with anyone, insofar as the Gospel is not compromised in any way.” I made this clear at the first meeting we had where I presided. No one has questioned my intent, they have respected that rule, and even look to it as their standard in doing cooperative ministry in their local churches with other churches.
Cyle,
Thanks for this post. This is a topic on which I have written a bit on my own blog fairly recently at:
http://loveeachstone.blogspot.com/2007/11/unity-with-other-religions-too.html
http://loveeachstone.blogspot.com/2007/11/rocks-on-path-to-unity.html
I think it is important to distinguish clearly (as you have done) between cooperation in certain projects or causes, and Christian unity. We are not united in Christ with anyone who has not embraced the Gospel message of grace through faith in the substitutionary atonement of Jesus. Also, there are some, who are true believers, and with whom we must seek greater unity if we are to be faithful to our Lord, with whom we may well choose not to cooperate in certain projects.
I also like Tony’s rule of thumb here about not compromising the Gospel in any way. It is important to be clear, though, what are the essentials of the Gospel, and what are secondary and tertiary issues. Disagreement on these questions seem to be behind much of the discussion in SBC life as of late.
Tony,
I like your one rule. It’s interesting that in the pastor’s breakfast I attended this a.m. the issue of cooperation with Roman Catholic ministries was discussed. I didn’t participate. I just listened this time. I think the issue is easier when it’s an individual interaction. For instance, there is a couple who attends our church faithfully. She is protestant, he catholic. All the fruit in his life, and the confession of his lips says he is born again. It’s just harder at an institutional level. A Baptist I met the other day called me a heretic because I wasn’t a 5 point Calvinist. To the Roman Catholic Church, I am a heretic. To many Roman Catholics I am a brother. To this “Baptist” brother, I was heretic and also not a brother.
You could just be like my sweet little church – don’t cooperate with anybody.
I’m kidding, but sometimes it does feel like we isolate ourselves quite a bit.
I’m looking forward to seeing how some of you hard-hitters respond to this.
I’m fascinated by this subject. Last year I was in charge of hosting an Evangelical/Mormon discussion group at the LDS Institute of Religion located next to the University of Utah. Several orthodox Christian groups attended but one of the groups said they would not attend if we began the meeting with prayer–regardless of who offered the prayer. Apparently that fits in the category of “worship” but I confess that I don’t understand why worship in the presence of unbelievers is problematic. Several years ago, our elementary school PTA meeting would always begin with a prayer. In our predominantly LDS community, usually a Mormon Bishop was invited to offer the prayer but occasionally, a Baptist pastor did so. It didn’t seem to be a problem then, and I wonder if you think he should have declined to pray in such a circumstance–given that there was probably a 25 to 1 ratio of Mormons to Baptists?
Stephen Robinson (How Wide the Divide? w/ Craig Blomberg) wrote that he attended an anti-pornography rally at a local Christian Church, but the organizers refused to proceed until he (the Mormon) left. He concluded that those Christians were more concerned about the presence of Mormons than the presence of pornography. Clearly you have made a different distinction–unless protesting smut is a spiritual labor rather than a physical one.
Your decision to ask “Just what do we all believe?” makes we wonder. What criteria determines the line of demarcation? How far someone can step over it before you can no longer pray with him?
Dear Alma,
It seems that one question regarding the “line” has to be, “which God are we praying to?” As an orthodox Christian, I believe that the only way to access God is through His Son, Jesus Christ. If I prayed with a Muslim, he would be praying to Allah and I to God through Jesus Christ. We wouldn’t be praying together. One of us would be worshiping the true God and the other a false god.
Another question is, “which Jesus are you talking about?” Many people interacted with Jesus while He was incarnate. Some of them spoke to him as if he were insane, some saw him as a healer, some saw him as a prophet. Peter said he was the Christ, the son of the Living God. The Jesus who is, is the pre-existent Son of God, God very God, and many other truths. Mormons believe that Jesus was once a man, ascended into godhood, and now is the son of one of the gods in the universe. One of their axioms is that as we are (human), god once was and as God is we hope to become. That’s not the same Jesus we worship.
Alma,
You ask some very good questions and present a very interesting scenario.
For me, as I allude to on my comment above, the key is differentiating and discerning correctly between cooperation in projects and causes, and true spiritual unity. Personally, I would want to be very careful to not give the false impression that I considered myself (and my church) to be in spiritual unity with Mormons. Does voicing a prayer in the context you mention do this? I am not totally sure. But it is something I would want to take into account.
Curious. “Not the same Jesus.” “Not the same God.”
I hear this a lot, lately, especially with reference to Mormons and Muslims.
I think we need to elucidate a little better.
There are NOT multiple Jesus Christs. There are NOT multiple GODs. We’re dabbling with polytheism when we use this kind of language. There is ONE God, the LORD. Jesus Christ came in the flesh ONCE.
If someone prays in the name of Jesus but doesn’t believe Him to be the incarnate Son of God, the problem is NOT that they’re praying to a different Jesus. The problem is that they believe a LIE about who Jesus is and do NOT believe Him to be who He is. If someone claims things about Jesus regarding His origin or His fatherhood, they are NOT talking about a “different” Jesus. They are simply believing and telling a lie about the Jesus Christ that came and died for the sins of all mankind.
In the event that a Muslim prays to Allah, he is not praying to a “different God.” He is, indeed, praying to a false god, an idol. My understanding is that idols, thought of by many as “gods”, can only be demons. Would any theologian dare answer this – either the Muslim Allah is a demon, or he doesn’t exist at all, or there are actually other “gods” that are entities with godlike powers.
Likewise the supposedly “different Jesus” that we accuse the Mormons of worshipping.
There was one Jesus Christ. Any other entity which goes by that name is something else entirely. The demons tremble at the name of Christ, so I personally have a problem with one of them taking on that name. I do understand that Satan himself can appear as an angel of light, but can he answer or respond to a prayer given in the “name of Jesus Christ”? This seems to me to be terribly risky theological territory.
Is this off topic? I don’t know, but it’s intended to further the discussion of why we do or do not pray / worship with those who profess to believe in God and Jesus Christ but believe much differently about the characteristics and nature of the two than “we” do.
“Which Jesus”, even though a very effective song by Todd Agnew that is a literary tool of its own, doesn’t quite ring true with me.
I believe in Jesus Christ and trust Him for my redemption and salvation. I believe He died for my sins, was buried, and rose from the dead.
Even though someone else may not believe that the Jesus Christ of history actually did those things, that doesn’t mean they are referring to a different historical figure. That simply means that they do not believe the truth about Him, regardless of what particular attributes they may assign Him.
Can anyone see the difference? Does it matter to this discussion? I suppose not. Sorry for the distraction.
Bernard,
I appreciate the post. There is only one God, but even the Bible talks about worshiping false gods.
Cyle,
I’m not sure your conclusion that Allah is a false God is valid. All the Muslims I know honestly believe that Allah is the God of Abraham—it’s their linguistic equivalent for “El.” If they believe they’re worshipping the God Abraham and you believe you’re worshipping the God of Abraham, I’m not sure the accent is that important.
While “sbc Impact” isn’t an appropriate forum for me to explain Mormon theology to you, neither should you put yourself in a position to mistakenly explain to a Mormon what Mormons believe.
David,
I’m certain that neither the Baptist Pastor at the PTA meeting or our Evangelical guests ever suspected they were in spiritual unity with the Mormons—nor vice versa. Parenthetically, I’m also a member of an university ministers’ coalition designed to help students or university officials locate religious leaders when needed. (If a student falls ill and wants a pastor , priest, mullah, or rabbi, we know each other and help facilitate that.) We meet for lunch and take turns giving thanks for the food. I have to admit that I was very uncomfortable when the Pagan representative gave thanks to the “mother goddess.” I quietly waited till it was over and deferred adding an “amen.”
Bernard,
I agree that the “different Jesus” concept isn’t logically consistent. If you think Jimmy Carter was a great president and I think he was a terrible one, we’re not talking about two Jimmies. They’re different perspectives on one individual, both of which cannot be true. Walter Martin manufactured the “different Jesus” concept because he didn’t want to allow that Mormons could be saved if they confessed with their mouths the Lord Jesus and believed that God had raised him from the dead—if they also believed in heretical concepts.
Cyle, please forgive my next comment since it is off topic, but I’ve just posted an urgent call to prayer on my site and beg folks to read it and pray. You can reach me by clicking on my name. Thanks so much. selahV
While I realize that this is a side issue and potential rabbit-trail…
“Allah” is the name for God in Arabic. There is no other word. Jews, Muslims & Christians who speak Arabic call God Allah. Of the 5 Arabic Bible translations I read from, all use the term الله (Allah) for God.
His peace be with you,
From the Middle East
Alma,
The Muslims I have spoken with do not equate Allah with Jehovah or Yahweh and they certainly don’t believe that Jesus is God. They also believe that the Trinity is one of the highest forms of heresy. So, I’m not sure that most Muslims in the world would agree with you. I have used the Koran to begin sharing with Muslims about the one true God and His Son, Isa, which I believe is Arabic for Jesus.