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To Tithe … or Not to Tithe …
Posted by SelahV in Uncategorized
THAT IS THE QUESTION. Another great question for lay folks is: should the preacher preach it? For pastors, how do you feel about preaching it?
Some folks say tithing is under the Old Testament law. It was canceled out as necessary when Jesus made a new covenant through His atoning sacrifice on the cross. Some folks take the phrase in the New Testament to give generously as you have prospered as an excuse not to give a “tenth” of their income. That way of thinking leads us down the path of giving to God as we as individuals think we’ve been blessed. However, if we all truly took that as our guide in giving to God, I think we’d be more like the widow who gave her mite–all she had. Not a tenth of her mite.
So when I read, “…test Me now in this, says the Lord God of hosts, if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you such blessing you will not have room enough for it.” Malachi 3:10, I conclude God is talking about a whole bunch more than a simple ten bucks on the hundred I received from a yard sale. I conclude that His previous statements of robbing Him and bringing the “whole” tenth of my income into the storehouse, are far more reaching than simply giving a bit of what I have to provide “food in His house.”
Perhaps you may have another opinion on tithing and stewardship. There is so much talk today about our Baptist distinctives and the validity of some things Southern Baptists have taught since becoming “people of the Book” back in 1845. We have folks who think tithing on the net income is good enough, yet I find that inconsistent with the “first fruit” of what we have been given. Perhaps I’m wrong? Some say tithing is a legalistic teaching. But I think it is consistent with following the commandments and precepts and principles of God’s Word. What say you?
Some think there is no need for us to preach on this because it offends folks. Yet the Lord expects us to take care of the church, His called men who preach and the expenses of the body. What is the “food in the storehouse” for which we need to bring our tithes and offerings today?
Literature, clothing for needy, Bibles for those who have none, food for the hungry, water for the thirsty, talents to be used in compliance to His commands, transportation to and from church for those who have no way, our substance to provide THE substance necessary to keep missionaries on the field, seminaries teaching, colleges operating, scholarships for students, medicine for sick, benevolence for a bevy of things, and cash for the incidentals such as electricity, water, sewage and phone service. Is it our responsibility to provide for our pastors and insure them and invest in a retirement plan so they aren’t paupers when they retire?
I know. That’s a long list of needs for our storehouse. But I think the point is, that in order for God’s work to be accomplished, it is definitely our responsibility to give back a portion of what is needed for the whole to keep functioning. And when we cheerfully, willingly give, the Lord will “open the windows of heaven and pour out such blessings we won’t have room for it.”
Obviously, some of us have been holding back. Most churches are scrambling to meet budgets. Many pastors are riding around in unsafe vehicles trying to get to the next funeral or hospital. Some pastors are on foodstamps and shopping Goodwill stores for clothes. Some churches beg for used literature from other churches. People go hungry. Church members seek help from government agencies. Some seek no help at all.
I wonder if we were to “test Him” with all of our tithes, if He’d still be faithful to us–even though we’ve been unfaithful to Him. God loves His own. He provides for His own. I’m in the testing mode, now. I don’t ask for anything for me anymore. I want only more so I can give more. And as I consider all the pressing needs in my personal life, I count them as nothing compared to the needs I must meet for the Storehouse of God. selahV
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I think automatically giving 10% is legalistic. “Give because it’s your duty” is the underlying message I often hear (whenever I hear tithing preached” and I have a hard time reconciling that with the whole bible. I also believe that if I’m treating every penny as though it belonged to the Lord and asking the Father how he wants me to spend his money, I’m probably going to be giving more than 10%.
I don’t believe in OT tithing. Now that I have your attention, I believe NT believers should be giving MORE than a legalistic 10%. What I read in the NT is not so that we tithe, but…
“he who sows sparingly shall also reap sparingly; and he who sows bountifully shall also reap bountifully. LET EACH ONE DO JUST AS HE HAS PURPOSED IN HIS HEART; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver.”
and Jesus’ words, “give and it will be given to you…”
These instructions should be more our guide to how much we give to the Lord’s work, rather than bringing in OT structures and imposing them upon NT churches.
We teach that the OT tithe is a guide to help us with a starting point. But each believer should PURPOSE in his heart how much he will give over and beyond that. If OT teaches 10%, surely NT believers ought to be giving more!
The other thing I believe is that we are to give what we have purposed to the Kingdom rather than the Malachi storehouse. We are part of the Church today, not the temple. The Church is where God resides, not the OT temple. While certainly a responsible portion of my giving ought to go for those ministries and servants in the local church context, I give to the needs as God brings them into my path. You mention in your post such things as literature, clothing, Bibles, and a long list of other needs. We are told by Jesus to seek FIRST his Kingdom, not our own little kingdoms. Wherever the need is in the greater Kingdom, that is where we are to give as the Spirit leads. What this means in practical terms is that when a brother is sick and doesn’t have money for medicine, I give for medicine and that counts as “tithe”. I know others don’t see things this way, but wherever the Lord shows me a need in his Kingdom, I do my best to give to that need. This week, for example a large portion of this month’s “tithe” will go to help a brother pay for a needed surgery.
Jesus said, “I came not to do away with the law, but to fulfill it.” It is inconceivable to me that a Christian who has accepted the grace of our Lord would consider tithing a duty, rather than a privilege. Tithing is the least a Christian should consider, since all we have belongs to God.
Just a question. Is abstaining from adultery a “legalistic OT” teaching? Or is it a precept of a universal truth that God has placed into the fabric of the universe? While humanity is free to have sex with anyone of their choice, what is the consequences of breaking this commandment? I believe they are fairly extreme for most people. Most of us have seen it. I tend to want to forget what I have seen.
The “tithe” is woven from the first and second commandment: “You shall have no other gods before me” and “Do not make any graven image.” The Apostle Paul tells us “The love of money is the root of all evil.” And he is right! Men would rather serve riches, placing their wealth and future prosperity before God. God knows this. Therefore He instituted for the Hebrews the tithe.
Many times Bowden, because we are human, we cannot give always out of gladness and joy. You of all people know that feelings are subject to the ups and downs of the day. Sometimes we do not feel, and other times we do. What if a person “feels” that they want to commit adultery today. Should that feeling be validated, even though that person would have no “joy” in abstaining? Sometimes all we have left is “duty.” A duty to do right over wrong, even though we have no “joy” in doing it. The duty of forcing my young son to confess to the store manager that he had stolen something was no fun – but it was a “duty” nevertheless, since that was all I was left with. Sometimes writing that check to the church is hard and not always joyful- I can think of a thousand things I could use the money for. Yet when joy is fleeting, I have a duty and fear of God to worship Him, and do what is right. Now I will have to say that God has never let me down, and the joy has come (albiet delayed gratification – because the glory is His and not mine).
We live in a choatic world where the people have no sense of good or bad, right or wrong – and in which a lot of the churches are in a mess. We need to know how God built this universe so that we can function in it. To call adherance to universal truth as “legalistic” is very disconcerting to me.
Rob
Selah,
As a pastor, I am always uncomfortable preaching on giving, though I know in every way that I should not be and that it is for their best that they obediently give. I haven’t quite learned how to get that gorilla out of my mind of how my message will be perceived. Did you struggle with hearing this teaching when you first became a Christian as an adult?
I don’t believe the Bible ever teaches that the tithe is no longer a standard for the God-fearer. The way I teach it is that we who are under the Law of Grace will never do less than those who were under the Law of Sin. So IF the tithe was an OT principle, we as NT believers should certainly not do less than 10%. For those who want to say the tithe is past, the only other standard I see is giving sacrificially, certainly beyond 10%, as seen in the early chapters of Acts. It certainly all belongs to God. We certainly are to give abundantly and sacrificially. AND we should certainly never give less than a tithe.
And yet, I struggle with the quandary I see all the time of people who profess Christ, and show many fruits of Salvation, and yet continue to give far less than a tithe. I believe I read once recently that the average Christian gives less than 2%.
Tithing isn’t a New Testament emphasis. In fact scripture says one can keep one part of the law but yet disregard love, mercy and justice.(Matt. 23:3). Scripture also says God loves a cheerful giver. We each have the Holy Spirit in us as true born again Christians and I believe we must trust Him to move us to give. Adultry is certainly not something a true Christian can do and not pay the price through the Holy Spirit working in Him. The law once again is to show us what we cannot do on our own, it shows us our sin. I agree that we should give more than the 10% of the OT. D.A. Carson has a piece on this very subject entitled Is Tithing Biblical? that is a very good piece. I recommend reading it. You can find it here:
http://www.fpcjackson.org/resources/sermons/Topical_Seasonal%20%20Sermons/stewardship/stewdtithe.htm/tithebiblical.htm
SelahV – Oh, boy, this one oughtta get good
Love ya for bringing it up!
Bowden – I agree that imposing a 10% duty tax on Christians is a legalistic mindset.
Rob – I think it’s a bit extreme to throw tithing in with adultery. If we think of it that way, I’m pretty sure that we can’t build fires on Sunday or eat pork. It appears to me – and I’m not yet “dogmatic” about this – that the COMMAND to tithe is a Jewish civil law, like the dietary and hygenic law, to deal with the “storehouse” needs of Jewish society.
All – this is a very personal matter, and most churches and Christians totally misunderstand. I even think most pastors misunderstand. Most pastors encourage tithing because more money makes their ministry more effective.
I’ve not yet found NT Scripture indicating tithing is a modern requirement for Christians. My understanding of it is that it was – literally – a tax to be used for the operation of the Israelite religious and civil leaders. God Himself has no use for money. It’s only a way of showing our submission to Him and supporting people who do His work. The Holy Spirit doesn’t have a bank account that runs low after Christmas.
Those who teach – Crown Financial, for instance – that a tithe is mandantory if we want God to bless our finances are, in my opinion, erroneous. I feel that this is a sidearmed version of prosperity gospel. I strongly encourage Christians to tithe or even to do more. However, I don’t believe that God puts big red ZEROes in our “account book” on the weeks that we only tithe 7%, either. God doesn’t work on a “deal” basis, as I understand Scripture. It’s all about faith. There are a lot of indicators of faith, and I think the attitude of tithing is one of those indicators, but there are some really wicked people who make regular contributions to “the work of God” with the attitude of “I’m a big payer, He’ll let me slide…”
Side note – Is the church the only valid recipient of a tithe? I don’t believe so. Does God honor my “tithe” if I give it to a homeless shelter or a foreign mission? I personally believe He does, but again, I’m not so sure He’s keeping an account book of that.
There’s a lot to consider here, and I’m not out to be argumentative. I wish I could give 50%. It’s just not possible right now, and to promise “seed” and “harvest” mentality is extermely foolish. That’s how a lot of “tithing” is approached – “If you tithe, God will make the other 90% take care of all your needs.” I know He CAN, but we start teaching non-Scriptural attitudes pretty quickly.
Asking widows to tithe 10% of their SS check is territory that pastors need to stay the heck away from. The church needs to be GIVING to those people, not asking them to support it!
I would highly recommend the following links to articles written on this subject by Dr. Andreas Kostenberger, from Southeastern Seminary.
He does not take a “traditional” position on tithing. But I believe, if we truly desire to be and knowledgeable about and faithful to what Scripture teaches on this question, a careful read of these articles will be most instructive.
http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/?p=160
http://biblicalfoundations.org/pdf/pdfarticles/bbrtithing1.pdf
http://biblicalfoundations.org/pdf/pdfarticles/bbrtithing2.pdf
Jesus wants 100% allegiance to Him. He does not desire that we serve Him with 10% of the talents He has entrusted to us. He does not desire that we love Him with 10% of our hearts. In the same way He does not desire us to “give” to Him 10% of the wealth He has delegated to us. What He desires is that every penny in our possession be used in a manner that honors & brings glory to Him.
We can play all of the exegetical/eisegetical games that we want but Jesus clearly teaches in Luke 16 that our wealth is to be used to advance the Kingdom of God. A “tithing” theology seems to be a little light on having our hearts & desires transformed & seeing our finances follow suit. Throughout the New Testament Jesus affirmed the Law & then took it to the next level. To paraphrase “Don’t just refrain from murdering, quit thinking evil of others in your heart. Don’t just refrain from physical adultery, quit thinking about it.” Jesus came to transform our worldview & as this is transformed, our actions follow.
How does this apply to tithing? For those who are “wealthy,” this teaching is a get out of jail virtually free card. If I earn 300,000usd a year and give a tenth, then live off of 270,000usd … spending every dime on whatever I want … how is that fulfilling what Jesus commanded? On the other hand, if a husband runs off & leaves a believing woman who was previously a house-wife with 3 kids & no marketable skills … she is supposed to give 10% of the already insufficient wage she will earn to the “church.” Perhaps she could then ask for it back through the benevolence fund? Seems like an unnecessary burden in this case. But …
If we teach that all money is in our stewardship and belongs to God and that we are to give as anyone has need … wow, the wealthy man may just understand Jesus’ heart for helping those in need and provide for woman whose husband ran off.
His peace be with you,
From the Middle East
Good morning Bowden, “automatically giving 10%” may very well be legalistic to some. But God honored that giving before man made it legalistic, didn’t He? Wasn’t He pleased with Abel’s gift and not with Cain’s? Is that any less legalistic than Paul’s admonition to us to “present yourselves as a living sacrifice unto God which is our reasonable service”?
I rather like Brad’s statement above “The way I teach it is that we who are under the Law of Grace will never do less than those who were under the Law of Sin.”
Jesus came to fulfill the Law in all its entirety. Indeed, in Him we find our sufficiency. To Him we owe everything—including the provisions He so abundantly bestows upon us. A tithe is but a tip. selahV
Guy, love the way you get our attention.
Also, if any of the readers haven’t visited yesterday’s post written by Guy, it is a blessing to go read what he and God are up to in South America–whether you agree with all the logistics or not.
Storehouse, temple, church. Whether the cash flow goes to storage for the temple (which in God’s opinion was giving to Him) or to the body of Christ (which is also giving to Him) is the point of tithing and offerings. We are being taught to “observe all things” when we are taught to tithe and give back to God what is all entirely His in the first place, aren’t we? selahV
Ken, don’t believe I’ve ever had the privilege to chat with you. Thanks for your input. I like what you have to say. selahV
SelahV – you really opened a can of worms with this one, nothing like a little theological debate 2 days after Christmas to keep our minds working!
I’m glad you asked what the pastors should preach and not what a Christian should do. The simple answer is that the pastor should preach what the Bible says and from that an individual can sort through the scriptures and examine them, seeking the leading of the Holy Spirit for their situation.
Each Christian is an individual and many are at different places in their walk with the Lord. Some have a weak faith and some have a strong faith. Where are they at? What can they handle so that they are giving from their heart and not from legalism? What can their financial situation support – can their faith support 10% when their finances can’t?
I’ll close with what I’ve heard my current pastor say more than once when he deals with the subject of tithing, he says something like, ‘It all belongs to the Lord, I feel privileged that He lets me keep 90% of it.’ That one statement made me look at the subject from a different perspective and the way I look at tithing changed because of it.
Something to think about for you pastors reading this, consider teaching your people that it all belongs to God and asking them to examine what they should keep for themselves.
Blessings,
Trish
Brad, you asked, “Did you struggle with hearing this teaching when you first became a Christian as an adult?”
Absolutely. Yet, when I got down to the nuts and bolts of why I struggled, it was simply because I didn’t trust God to take care of me with the sacrifice it took for me to give that 10%. And any time I struggle with what to give to God today—be it money, time or talent—it all comes back to the same thing. I am because of God. I have because of God. Without Him I am nothing. And to let go of a measley 10% of my income is but a pittance of what He expects of me. If I am unwilling to be faithful in the least of things, how can I be trusted to be faithful in more?
When I first became a Christian, I was taught the Lordship of Christ in my life. Once I grasped that understanding of my Savior, my understanding of the tithe came without any struggle at all. selahV
Rob, hello! I pray you had a great Christmas! Wow…I’d planned on bringing up adultery in another post altogether.
I think the point you are trying to make here is being lost. All things in the OT are compatible with things in the NT. The only thing is Jesus took them to a higher level with His Sermon on the Mount. His teachings show us that to even think about another woman/man was adultery. And He gave us the example of the rich young ruler with our possessions—give it all away.
I remember a sermon a former pastor of mine preached once, about the excuses we give God for not tithing, serving, etc. God can remove that excuse–the obstacle. In my case, He removed people, took away my entire income, gave me unexpected bills that ate my ten-percent and a bevy of other things to prove His Sovereignty over my life and petty excuses. But that’s just me. Don’t know how He works in other’s lives.
Thanks for adding your wisdom to the pot. You know you are one of my heros.
selahV
Bernard…happy to accomodate your need for juice today.
selahV
Bernard,
With respect, have you ever heard of an analogy? I was not liking adultery with tithing, so rest easy. I was making adultery an example of a universal truth that we can ill afford to break. Our allegiance to it may indeed become a duty and not a joy – this esp happens to men in middle age. “Tithing” being what I have described connected to the first and second commandment, is the “minimum” duty of that faithful Jew, and in extrapolation to the redeemed believer who owns nothing.
Stewardship is the issue here. I like what many have said – we own nothing, God owns it all. All of the resources we control are God’s , to be used for His glory. To help us however (because we are a stiff necked people) is the help of the standard – the tithe which should be the minimum of our gifts to His glory.
I believe part of the argument here against “tithing” was the aspect of “legalism.” Performing one’s duty in the absence of joy is much preferable to the alternative – and in any case, joy will come.
Rob
Middle East…I like you. 100%. I have found that in my greatest destitution, the Lord has indeed brought “rescuing” benevolent souls to my aid. Not all were rich. Indeed, it was usually the folks who were sold out to Jesus entirely and had little more than I who gave to help me. selahV
Trish,
“I’ll close with what I’ve heard my current pastor say more than once when he deals with the subject of tithing, he says something like, ‘It all belongs to the Lord, I feel privileged that He lets me keep 90% of it.’”
This is my concern in comment #8. All of our resources are to be used in a way that advance His Kingdom. We are ambassadors, stewards, managers … we have nothing … He has bought us with a price and we (and the things around us) do not belong to us any longer.
May His face shine upon you,
From the Middle East
Rob, agreed. selahV
Trish, like your thoughts and the keeping of the 90%. That has brought everything into a different perspective to me in past struggles, too.
“can of worms”? to be quite honest, I didn’t know it would be such. But I guess Geoff was more prophetic than I realized when he wrote his preview of what I was posting today.
selahV
Middle East, I agree and think that the Lord is just as concerned (if not more so) with what we do with the 90% as He is with the 10% we begrudge Him.
My son once complained that he didn’t want to give 10 dollars from the 100 dollars he received in birthday gifts. I told him, well, don’t give it and then next year the Lord will help you out even more. Maybe you won’t get 100. Maybe you’ll only get 10.00 and then you’ll only have to give a dollar. He had no problem understanding that concept and he was only 10 years old. selahV
What fun!
SelahV, what a fantastic post! I wish I had written it. Shame on you.
Well, seems to me we’re a bit all over the place on this one.
I will agree with those who point out the absence of a New Testament command for believers to give a tithe (10%).
But …
Should we set aside the wisdom of the Old Testament as being no longer relevant, or even a bit passé because of the lack of such a command? I don’t think so. There are plenty of spiritual disciplines that we all practice daily, and many are not “commanded” in the NT … but they’re still downright good for you.
If the “law” called for 10%, surely a lifestyle of sacrificial giving (most definitely taught in the NT) can begin no lower than that.
Giving is all about faith, discipline, and (even) duty. I would point out that “duty” is not a bad word, as some may perceive it to be. But it is a simple reality of our faith that not every endeavor in Kingdom work comes with an accompanying “warm fuzzy” feeling. Indeed, Jesus described our efforts of following Him as akin to “taking up our own cross.” Surely, in our day of economy and investment, giving is a significant and necessary part of our faithful followship. Indeed, in our day of prosperity, it is the only realm where most believers in North American culture can even attempt to truly sacrifice!
I like what Bernard pointed out about the shady “prosperity gospel” people that now litter our airwaves and mailboxes. No, we must not give in order to receive in return. That flies in the face of the very purpose of giving.
Instead, I see our giving as something of a spiritual “thermometer.” It indicates how spiritually healthy a person (or a church, for that matter) really is. A 10% tithe is something like a healthy 98.6ͦ temperature. Less than that is a sign of “lack of life.” And I guess, using my analogy, more is a sign of “Gospel fever.”
Anyhow … at my home we have our baseline tithe written into our family budget. We invest and live on the other 90% of our family income. I teach my children the same principle. And unashamedly so. I want them to establish healthy habits and spiritual disciplines early in their lives. And I do not hesitate to teach this same principle that I teach in my home to the people of my congregation. They get a straightforward, sound sermon on stewardship at least twice a year. Anything short of that would be hypocritical on my part.
But I do find it interesting that the subject of giving is the one area where New Testament believers suddenly seem to have little use for the Old Testament.
From the Middle East,
The subject here was what should the pastor preach and I said he should preach the Bible and then I shared that my pastor preaches it all belongs to the Lord and that it is a blessing that the Lord lets us keep 90%.
Your post was not there when I started typing my comments so I did not have the benefit of your words when I wrote mine so I did not expand on my thoughts to address what you wrote. Yes, it all belongs to the Lord, everything we have, including our lives and we are to live each day as for the Lord, everything we do is for His honor and His glory.
Therefore, with the 90% we keep, we are to use it in a way that brings Him glory and honor in the life circumstances in which we are living. For example, the Lord has provided a home for me to live in, but it costs money to live here, so I use some of the 90% to pay for my home. I then try to have an attitude of this home belonging to Him and taking care of it accordingly and using it for Him in all that I do each day.
I hope I’ve communicated that we really are on the same page with our resources and our lives because I think we are.
Trish
Happy Holidays all,
It’s no longer Christmas, but it is still a Holy Day (holiday) with Christ and that’s how I approach the whole issue of money and God. All I have is His. I started tithing one year before I entered ministry full-time. It was a matter of trust. We were taking home $7,000 a month and giving about $200 a month to the church and maybe $50 a month to other ministries. I just didn’t trust God to take care of me. Well, I haven’t taken home $7,000 a month since I entered ministry full time and even with my wife and I working side jobs, I still don’t make near that much money. But, we give much more than 10% now and have much more peace than ever before. Plus, we have the joy of giving now. We tithed when we were on food stamps and WIC and were in ministry. We tithed when we couldn’t make our care payment, but we never had a car repossessed. We tithed when I couldn’t afford health insurance, but we’re all still alive and kicking today. Today, if we stopped tithing, we could buy a new house, but I’d rather trust God to take care of me than a new house.
You cannot be an elder or deacon in our church unless you at least tithe. While that may sound legalistic to some, I’d like to pose this question. What would happen in your church if the pastor didn’t tithe and the people found out about it? If a man doesn’t trust God enough to give, he won’t be able to effectively serve God’s people.
Here are a couple of bigger questions to me. How we can spend $500 on an Xbox 360 game package and give $50 to Lottie Moon, or $300 on the fixings for Christmas dinner and give $20 for world hunger? Why do we need 3,000 square foot houses, $50,000 vehicles, and cell phones in the pocket of everyon in the family.
The average cell phone bill for a family of four is $250 per month. Do the math and in the average-sized SBC church that comes to between $100-120k per year. Humanity made it for a long time without cell coverage. Giving is decreasing in virtually every religious sector. Between cell phones, DSL, satellite and gas prices, we’re getting edged out. I don’t think it’s bad to talk about the duties of being a follower of Jesus. I think we need to. Hey, what could your church or ministry do with an extra $100,000 a year?
Trish,
It sounds like you & I are on the same page … we both agree that all of our resources are to be used for His glory. But …
Statements like the one your pastor made can be understood, wrongly, to excuse those who live in excess to the neglect of the poor and the unreached. My apologies for not asking for clarification first.
A friend of mine once said, “You can tell what someone’s priorities are by looking at their calendar & checkbook.” Wherever someone falls on these questions, there seems to be a lot of wisdom in his statement.
His mercy, love & grace be yours in abundance,
From the Middle East
Rob – Yo, bro, respect back at ya. And props to the homies. (Sorry, just a little silliness triggered by the largely incorrect use of the word “respect” in today’s society…)
Yessir, I have heard of an analogy. I excelled quite marvelously in English Grammar and Composition at Pensacola Christian College…
By using the word “analogy”, you have irresistibly drawn me toward the conclusion that my initial thoughts were correct – you regard tithing as universal truth. You are using accepted truth – among SBs – that adultery is sinful to indicate that failing to tithe is sinful.
My point here is that equating tithing to the Decalogue is not something I quite agree with. I am not a highly educated person, even with my simple Bachelor’s degree, so I do not purport to know everything there is to know about this or any other Biblical subject. All I can say is that I do not place tithing on that level. I believe it is a SOUND principle of Christian financial management; it is SOLIDLY taught within the Old Testament; and it is a SUPERIOR tool for us to use in order to do our very best to indicate to God our submission to His will for our lives and finances. However, I maintain that failure to tithe does not indicate moral bankruptcy or lack of spiritual regeneration. Tithing is not the primary duty of the Christian. To REFUSE to tithe, Biblically, at least in OT times, was a direct affront to God. I have no desire to do that in my life. However, in no circumstances will I advise a single mother to tithe rather than buy formula for her newborn baby.
Many make tithing the primary indicator of a person’s spiritual health. It IS an indicator, but I don’t think it’s the PRIMARY indicator. While I love to see a giving church and I love to give, I don’t like to see pastors mandate tithing from the pulpit. Cyle and I have a brotherly diagreement here, it would seem
In personal counseling, I think it’s very appropriate to deal with the situation as the Holy Spirit leads. I do NOT personally believe it is appropriate to simply make public remarks intended to embarrass or belittle those who do not tithe exactly 10% of every cent they earn or are given. Some pastors seem to hide behind “the pulpit” and use its “authority” to prevent parishioners from challenging the call to tithing. That is very inappropriate in my opinion. Those same pastors would bristle at my challenging their authority, but be that as it may. A pastor must LOVE his flock, not attempt to beat or trick it into submission.
One point here is that the pastor needs to make sure he’s listening to the Holy Spirit and not to the financial report when he decides whether to teach on tithing instead of on the life of Peter.
But yes, I agree that sin is sin in God’s eyes and robbing God is no less sin than murdering my neighbor. I understand that. Jesus made that clear. I’m not writing this to excuse sin. I hope it doesn’t come across that way.
I also acknowledge that failure to tithe primarily comes from either a failure to love God or a failure to love our neighbor, which, as you clearly state, is covered in the first two commandments.
I have done payroll and also worked for a tax preparation firm.
Deciding what is the gross or the net isn’t necessarily all that simple.
I doubt that I have ever met anyone who truly tithes on his gross income if he works for a company that pays for any sort of benefits. And yet I have met tons of people who think they tithe on the gross of all income.
For example, most people that have company-provided health insurance pay for only part of that out of their specified salary. Same for workman’s comp, federal and state unemployment, disability and life insurance, health savings accts., vision and dental, etc.
A person’s salary may only be two-thirds of their “income”, the exact amount being unknown to the employee.
If there are 401K deductions, they will not show up in the first line on the 1040. Should that be added back into gross tithable income? Or not, since it will be withdrawn some day from the 401K account and tithable then? Same for many other deductions.
And then there is the person whose only income is Social Security. Theoretically, if they tithed on the gross all those years, part, maybe a considerable part, of current SS income would not be new income, but payback from withdrawals from salary all those years. (No, you don’t have to explain to me the reality of SS. I know.)
If you are a minister and claim a housing deduction, it could be argued that you have extra income than most people would at that level of salary.
All I am trying to say is that it is a judgment call as to exactly what one’s gross income really is for many, many people. Yet
lots of people seem to think it is very clear-cut.
If you give a gift of food to someone in need, should they calculate the value of sthat food and give 10% of it?
Should I calculate the value of the Christmas presents I gave versus received? Gave more than got, end of story? Got more than gave, calculate 10% of my increase and tithe that?
Sounds legalistic. But actually quite consistent with the principles I have always heard about 10% of all income. Why would it just be cash?
Geoff: you write: “I would point out that “duty” is not a bad word, as some may perceive it to be.”
I have a problem with duty. The Bible never teaches us to do something out of duty, at least from what I see. Even in the OT it was not about duty. Remember all the Bible points to Christ, even tithing. Look at Deut. 14:22-29 for example. The people were not to simply pay tithes to the priest and sustaining the temple. It was in fact a expression of their joy and gratitude. I think we should have a “warm and fuzzy feeling” for lack of a better word, when we give. Man looks on the outer, God looks on the heart according to scripture. If we give just out of duty, that could indicate a spiritual problem that we need to look at. God doesn’t need our money, people do and it’s how God has chosen to both provide for His people and bless us. If I were the one receiving, I certainly wouldn’t want it to be given out of duty and I’m not sure God does either. It’s where the commandment, which Christ says is the greatest, comes into play. Love the Lord God with all your heart, soul and mind. And your neighbor as yourself. This love is given by God which in turn causes us to want to do, not out of duty, but out of love.
Can you demonstrate from God’s Word using context that the Church should teach tithing? Kostenberger is correct.
It took the Baptist church over 300 years from 1649 to 1963 to merely insert the texts for tithing in the SBC Faith and Message. The highly respected writers of the 1925 Faith and Message did not see fit to include any tithing texts. Why?
Read Baptist history. Until the 1890s most Baptists not only opposed tithing but they were self-supporting. Where was the “truth” then?
How can the church be the storehouse and replacement for the Temple? Both the Temple and the priesthood now reside within the priesthood of believers. And according to Neh 13:5-10 the Temple only had two small storerooms for the tithe. That is because the vast majority of the tithe was brought to the Levitical cities where the Levites and priests needed it for food per Neh 10:37b.
The whole concept and use of the word “tithe” is wrong for the church. SBC leaders will not engage in an open discussion of the subject. I know that for a fact because I have been treated like mud in over eight churches since writing my PHD thesis and book on the subject.
We are violating the teaching from Galatians 3:1-5 when we teach that all doctrines are based on NT principles except finances. In reality most Christians should give more than 10% but that does not curse those who must buy medicine and food and give less. The very idea of a fixed percentage is wrong. In the OT it only applied to farmers and herdsmen living inside Israel.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD, author of Should the Church Teach Tithing?
Debbie,
I guess I would slightly disagree. My understanding of duty has been grounded in my military experience. Duty and honor went hand-in-hand. And that experience translates into my life.
For instance, I am a father of two teen-age daughters. They are pure joy in my life. I am most grateful for them. But there are responsibilities in fatherhood that I must experience, not because of joy, but because of my role. I must discipline my children. Why? Because it is my duty. And that’s a good thing. I provide for my children. Why/ Because it is my duty. And that’s a good thing. The joy exists in the love and the relationship, not, necessarily, in every single action that I take. Real relationships come with many levels of “duty.”
True joy is being able to look the circumstances of life in the face and being able to make the right decision because of my discipline and discipleship. True joy is being in those moments of life, such as having to choose between my tithe and a new lawn mower, and choosing Christ’s Kingdom over my own.
Bottom line … our money is the ultimate “measuring stick” to determine one’s selfishness -vs- selflessness. The tithe is a most excellent indicator of that “ratio.”
Indeed, God looks at the heart. But when it comes to our finances, He doesn’t have to look very deep. Like Jesus said, “Wherever your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” Your heart doesn’t follow your money. instead, your money leaves a “trail,” clearly marked and visible, to the place where your heart resides.
Anyhow, I think we’re barking up the same tree … just on different sides of it.
Bernard,
Just a point of clarification. I don’t preach that 10% is mandated scripturally. When I teach about stewardship, I teach that 100% is mandated scripturally. We don’t give God 10% so we can spend 90% any way we want. It’s all His, and we use it all for His glory. Regarding our ledaership. We don’t believe that the Bible prohibits drinking alcohol, but as elders and deacons in our church we have decided that we should abstain (and that we should all give at least 10% to the ministries of our church).
Dr. Kelly,
Thanks for your comment. It’s not often that we get experts and authors around here.
I went ahead and edited your comment to add a link to your book at amazon.com … didn’t think you would mind.
And I guess I’ll just go ahead and keep on being wrong and begin my giving with a baseline tithe of 10%. I would rather err on the high side of giving.
Selah,
You might be shocked to know that I comepletely agree with everything you wrote on this topic.
I teach storehouse tithing because I believe it to be biblical. Nothing in the NT does away with this concept and those who say that Jesus never said anything about tithing are making the same argument that Gay people make when they say that Jesus never said anything about homosexuality.
The practice of tithing is biblical, clear, and is an act of worship.
Thanks for the column.
Les
If we teach our people to “walk by the Spirit” (Gal 5:16), we have to trust that He will guide each believer what they should give individually.
The OT set a giving guideline with the law(s) of the tithe, demonstrating that the first and best part belong to God (even of our children). This was a demonstration that all the earth is His (Lev 25:23), and we are merely stewards of His creation. God has the right to determine where the wealth goes. This was kindergarten lesson number one.
The NT teaches that the sacrifice He requires is our very bodies (Rom 12:1) — it all goes on the altar. We walk by the Spirit, and HE will determine where all of HIS money goes. In other words, we don’t give until it hurts, we give until it feels good! He will reward our obedience to Him with His peace.
Cyle – I understand. I’ve got some particular issues that concern me regarding “imposing” standards on deacons and leaders, and that triggered my really noticing your comment. We have some language in our bylaws that require such and such of a deacon or director, and, even though I supported it at the time due to a special concern on the part of our pastor, I think we acted hastily due to situations that have since developed.
Back to the real subject – My pastor teaches a 10% minimum. It “bothers” me because I think it results in a legalistic mentality. I wish we simply had a more loving culture of GIVING. Without expectations of payback. Without “God says I gotta, so I guess I will.” Without “Gotta pay the preacher…” Without frustration and claims of “You’re wasting OUR money!”, or “That’s MY money you’re spending, pastor!”
Seriously – are there not ways to teach people to GIVE rather than teaching people to TITHE? To me, there’s an incredible difference in the heart attitude. I pay Uncle Sam because he FORCES me to. I give to my church because I WANT to. I would love to see pastors teach from THAT emphasis. It’s similar to the situation where someone witnesses simply because he feels it’s a requirement, as opposed to someone witnessing because they LOVE the guy that needs Jesus!
If God leads you to tithe, then by all means tithe. I just personally believe that the NT emphasis is on GIVING. I see the two as totally different. Sorry if I’m strange
Benard,
Having to deal almost daily with graduates from Pensacola (my son’s school is an independent Baptist church will they absolutely have the name of the place plastered upon every wall) you are a cut against the grain – but I believe you know that. Congratulations! I spend time dealing with some of the legalisms they have adopted like “wearing denim is rebellion” and such other stuff like this.
The Decalogue is Universal truth. Agreed? The Jewish laws based upon the Decalogue could be called “interpretive” material, but in this case, these commands were also given by God. Logic dictates that “A is not non-A” therefore the God of Israel is indeed the same God of the Old Testament. Jesus warned us that “not one yod or tittle” would be taken from the Law, and that anyone that taught the exclusion of the “least of these” would be destined would be held accountable. That is enough of a warning to keep me on the straight and narrow. And enough of a thought for me to suggest that when God was setting up that government of ancient Israel in that wilderness, if He was boss, this is what He would promote as law.
The question before us is this: Does God care about how we serve Him? The answer is Yes! Does God care about how we deal with the resources He has given us? Yes! Is it because God is poor and needs the money we give? Of course not! God owns it all, and has no need! Does God need to rest? No, He is God? But why did God rest on the seventh day? To be a model to humanity that needed to worship and rest according to His creative design. Yet humankind is a stubborn lot. Thus we have commands to give to God our very lives as a sacrifice (Romans 12:1) and to give to God one day in seven for worship and rest (Exodus 20). These are not cultural commands – they are universal. For the very reason that we do not put ourselves on a ledge in fear of dropping to the ground (the law of gravity being a universal part of God’s creative order) so we place God first in our lives and hearts and make no other gods before him – those who are created from stone, or have the images of dead presidents on them.
I do not believe it is irresponsible to teach young single mothers the importance of placing God first. I have found in my greatest time of need, that even then I must put God first – otherwise the story of the three Hebrew boys in the furnace makes no sense at all.
Rob
Rob – If I had to deal with PCC grads on a daily basis, I would indeed be a very crotchety young man. Or old man, depending on which side of me the age judge happened to be upon. Especially if they happened to be true PCC believers… Whooee. Plenty of fodder there for discussion. My sympathy for you has increased greatly… Do you know Tom Horton? (He’s from Missouri, and he was Dr. Horton’s nephew… just curious.) I must confess I was quite a bit of a rebel there.
We agree strongly on universal truth, and much of what you say is very correct. I also agree that teaching young single mothers the importance of putting God first is a big deal. Didn’t mean to downplay that. I was addressing that more on a situational level than a general principle level.
Don’t have time for much more now; sorry. I’ll check back later. God bless.
Please don’t hold Pensacola against me
That sounds weird, but I think ya know what I mean. I wouldn’t trade my college years for anything, but…
Selah,
.
Interesting post and comments; I’ve enjoyed so much of your writing. A few of my thoughts:
1. Jesus commended tithing in the New Testament in Matthew 23:23.
2. I believe we deny poor people a blessing if we tell them not to tithe. Jesus did not tell the widow with two mites to take back her money. My preacher dad used to say, “I’m too poor not to tithe.” In other words, when we tithe God promises to bless us – and I’m too poor to live without that blessing.
I don’t twist the arms of the poor about tithing. But I do preach that we are all to give tithes and offerings to the Lord. And God blesses the tithing poor.
3. I don’t believe in the “prosperity gospel,” but God does promise to bless those who give to Him. God will bless us financially and spiritually. He doesn’t promise to make us all multimillionaires but He will bless financially. Part of that blessing is that when we tithe we learn discipline about our finances. On the other hand, God loves some of us too much to make us millionaires. He loves me a lot
By the way, O. S. Hawkins of Guidestone has a great book entitled, “Money Talks, But What is it Really Saying?”
Sincerely,
David R. Brumbelow
Dear SelahV,
Such a needed post this time of year. Many of those hopelessly ‘legalistic’ believers who practice the outdated, OT-superceded-by-NT tithing phenomenon are busily counting their last minute eggs before the New Year begins to assure God’s basket did not get short-changed His rightly deserved 10% cut of the lay. Kudos!
We poor legalists rightly deserve this pressure, if for no other reason than our hardened, calloused spirit we unhappily possess inevitably resulting from giving sheerly because we have to not because we want to. Tithing does that you know–it robs every bit of joy…every bit of worshipful expression…every bit of freedom we NT believers possess in the Spirit.
Tithing also teaches us we own everything but the tenth. Consequently, God darn well better not interfer with our 90% if we give Him His rightful 10%. Truth be told, He cannot interfer because the tithe is a legal transaction; hence, hands off!
One wonders in vain, however, if tithing is such a magnificently stupid idea–not to mention spiritually harmful idea–how our Sovereign could ever have thought it up to begin with.
Poor, poor OT saints. I’m sure glad NT believers–at least those among us who’ve been set free from such spiritual nonsense–are not entwined with these painful legalities anymore.
And, since tithing is admittedly not nearly as prominent in the NT as in the OT, thus paving the clear path for tithing’s sure overturn, it just may be that we’ve carelessly overlooked some other ‘legalistic’ unpleasantries we need to forsake.
Take, for example, the Law against bestiality, which, as far as I know, not a word of reaffirmation is uttered against such in the NT. And, since the NT is silent toward this ancient perversion, it must surely be that it is God’s intent to loosen His moral grip against it. NT believers are free! Any takers?
Grace. With that, I am…
Peter
Thanks, Peter, you make me feel like such a good person! Wow. It’s always good to be in the minority when the majority resorts to sarcasm to emphasize its points…
Your point is, by the way, well taken. I concede that argument from silence is perhaps inappropriate.
However, whatchall gonna do with Deuteronomy 22:5? Or 22:11, for that matter? Don’t throw Acts 10:9-15 at me, either, cause this ain’t about food or Gentiles.
I’m convinced that we pretty much ignore the parts of the Bible that are inconvenient and dogmatize the rest. Just as human beans in general…
My question is: Why can’t we just read and accept what SelahV wrote? Some commentors chase dogs just to try to prove why they do or do not tithe 10%. There is truth in what the original post is trying to say, but by the time I read all of the comments, her post has been mangled from its original intent. I praise God that I have never been taught to be so legalistic that I can’t see the beauty in serving my God in many different ways with my money. I won’t go into those ways because I would be criticized or corrected for my methods. I am 100% confident that I “tithe” in the exact ways that God calls me to. Do I need a pastor or finanacial analyst to tell me whether that giving is appropriate? I don’t think so. Have I figured out percentages for what I tithe? I’m a teacher, not a banker. My heart belongs to God not a system and I know when the Master is satisfied with my giving.
By the way, Hariette, thank you for your heart-felt post. Part of why I believe what I do is because of what you taught me as a young girl.
Bernard,
You said, “I’m convinced that we pretty much ignore the parts of the Bible that are inconvenient and dogmatize the rest. Just as human beans in general…”
Ain’t no doubt!
Karen – Sorry, none of my dog chasing was intended to attack SelahV. Anything I say is just my own expression. If it weren’t for discussion, it would be kind of boring around here. I learn a LOT more from these discussions than I do from just reading posts, in general. Definitely don’t mean to offend or attack, though.
Geoff –
SelahV,
Sorry, I should have said thanks for the post earlier. So, thanks for the post.
I was just thinking. There seems to be nothing wrong with tithing and everything right about it. I just want to thank God for teaching me so much about trusting Him through tithing.
Bernard,
Oh, stop it silly brother! I never employ sarcasm, only satire or even more precise, socratic irony :^)
Grace. With that, I am…
Peter
Cyle – There is, indeed, nothing wrong with tithing. Very true. I think I’ll stand on that.
Deteronomy 22:5 – a novel thought that men should wear men’s clothes and women should wear women’s clothes. In a culture in which gender has been downplayed to the point of rapid promiscuity and a rapid acceptance of same sex partnerships, where even public bathrooms in some places are uni-sex, this one seems to go against the grain of human depravity would you not agree?
Deteronomy 22:11 – the law of Shaatnez (mixture or intertwing) particularly in this case of garments both wool and linen. While superfolous on its face, it could very well be 1)the difference between the Jews and the Cannanites that would be unique for the Jews 2)the unique properties of both wool and linen (their differences) in terms of personal hygiene and 3)the symbolism of mixture as it deals with everything Jewish (no intermarriage, no same-sex partnerships, etc.)
Both of these are examples of the civil law however. Their direct connections to the Decalogue are dubious unlike the law of tithing connected to the first and second commandment.
Rob
Rob – No sarcasm in this question – Why do you differentiate those into civil law? What is the “Scriptural” basis for doing that? How do everyday doofuses (doofi???) like myself know whether a command is a civil law command or a “THOU SHALT DO THIS!!!” religious command? Many many many many many folks have a hard time just reading the Bible and seeing the difference if we truly believe that it is ALL God’s inspired word to the believer. If your theory is correct here – and I’m not challenging that – you are basically saying that there ARE “commandments” that we can / should ignore, right? I’m not trying to put you on the spot – this is a genuine question that I’m honestly hoping your doctoral wisdom can answer satisfactorily – how do we (I) easily and clearly discern the difference???
Thanks!
Hariette;
First chance I’ve had to get back to this post all day; wish I’d been able to interact more. I believe the bible teaches us to give joyfully, sacrificially, and prayerfully having first recognized it is all His, anyway (Guy’s comment was much more eloquent than mine). And I think that it will always (almost always?) be more than 10%. The “legalism” that I’m against is the automatic, mindless (and prayerless) giving just ’cause the pastor said so. The tone of some of the above comments is that not tithing = not giving: an idea I could not agree with.
So one more question (just to be ornery): if I set up my bank account to automatically transfer (eft) 10% to my church the first Sunday following every payday, have I given as I should?
I would say, “no”.
Well, well, well. I’m most gratified by all the dialog my little post stimulated. I’ve been out of pocket due to babysitting my little granddaughters so my daughter could take the others to the chiropractor and dentist. Sorry I haven’t been able to keep up with all the great points.
Peter! so glad to have you drop in and toss in your usual witty satirical comments to make your point. did give me food for thought as I consider how much of a dinasaur I might be in my thinking. But it doesn’t bother me. So far I’ve learned that the Lord blesses me when I tithe. And there are consequences when I don’t. If others don’t have those experiences—praise the Lord. It’s possible consequences only come to those who see tithing as an act of obedience and not-tithing an act of disobedience. I don’t know. No expert am I. But I do look forward to reading some of the links folks have offered here. Maybe I’ll get a better handle on it when I’m done reading.
Kevin–yep, I’m for teaching folks to walk in the Spirit and abide in the Vine.
Give me a few minutes and I’ll try to address some of the other comments as I get to them in the stream. My computer is acting up and shutting down mid-sentence, so I’m trying to respond but may have some technical difficulties. selahV
Les, “shocked” that you see things the same as I do on tithing? not at all. Most pastors do, even though many are not comfortable preaching it and the principles of giving. I know why some don’t like to preach on it. But not why each and every person doesn’t. I know why some folks don’t believe in tithing (as I eluded to in my post), but not why each person doesn’t. It is between each person and God as I see it. And when we all sit in the presence of our Lord, reading His Word and determine, “Hey, Lord, You didn’t really mean for me to give a tenth of everything I receive to You via the church, did You?” and then God says, “nah…just give whatever…but remember the widow cause I kinda liked her attitude best anyway.” Then if God tells each person it’s okay by Him, then who am I to argue? That’s his/her bone to pick with God, not mine. I just tell it like I see it and how He has shown me what I am to do.
GEOFF…hey, you are calling me SelahV again. how nice! selahV
Dr. Kelly, thank you so much for commenting here. I look forward to reading what you have to say on this subject. As to why the leaders didn’t put anything in the Baptist Faith and Message on tithing is beyond me. Could they have figured that was a given, like all the other things folks say are givens because the scripture isn’t specific enough?
Personally, I don’t worry as much about it being in the BF&M as I do in the Bible. God put it in there before the Baptists were even arguing over predestination, so I suppose I have this thing about following what it says since the Bible is full of precepts, laws and principles we should follow to bring glory to God and live a long life. I just can’t get around the fact that Jesus said, “if you love Me, you will keep my commandments.” And yes, He gave the greatest—but the greatest didn’t negate the least as I see it. But I’m just a lay-person (a woman at that), so I tend to look at things in a simple sort of way. I sure wouldn’t sit around beating up on anyone if they told me they didn’t tithe. I’ve only been a Christian for a bit over 32 years, and am only writing from my own well of experience and understanding of scriptures.
I’m fortunate to have a bevy of learned folk like yourself and other pastors who can help me and the other readers give attention to weightier matters on this topic. Again, thanks so very much for commenting. selahV
Karen from Oklahoma…thanks for showing us how complicated discerning the gross from the net can be for some folks. I’m sure the legality of it all could cause some folks to lose sleep at night.
Karen from Kentucky…you needn’t worry about the comments. They aren’t after me, hon. They are just agreeing and disagreeing in accordance to their understanding of the topic I posted today. All in all, I think everyone has shown themselves quite mannerly and without heated spew or pious attitudes.
I appreciate each and every person who has ventured into the stream today. Thank you. More to follow this comment. selahV
David Brumlowe, thanks so much for your input and gracious words about my writing.
I especially like your point on “prosperity giving”. I do not think we give to receive either. And I think it is dangerous stuff what some are teaching regarding that these days. However, they’ve been teaching that as long as I’ve been a Christian and longer. It’s nothing new. We just see more of it due to the internet and media.
I’d love to see some of the media report on the sacrificial giving I’ve witnessed in my lifetime by folks who had little yet gave so much because they gave from the little they had. No matter how much I give, I cannot out-give God. He always one-ups me. Always. selahV
Cyle, you are entirely welcome for the post. I love all your comments. seasoned with your finest wisdom as always. Hope folks take time to read what you say without reading something between the lines that is not there. Good stuff. selahV
Let’s see. did I leave anyone out?
Debbie. as usual, we see things from different sides of the fencepost. no problem here. Don’t think it is at all legalistic to teach tithing as something the Lord set up from the beginning of time. selahV
Bowden, You and I both wish we could have interacted more. To your question about setting up a bank account:
Why that’s a great idea. Can you just imagine how much money we’d have to give to missions, church plants, seminary educations, etc. if everyone did such a thing? Would it cause you to give as you “should”? Beats me. That is between you and God. I’ve been fed the Bible. I don’t see this as something a “pastor” has said to do. I read for myself and for my buck, ten-cents belongs to God without me even flinching. Then He gives me instructions throughout His word on how to be benevolent, generous and show acts of kindness that may very well mean dipping into the other 90% to show I love my neighbor as myself. That’s how I see it. selahV
Dear Bowden,
I realize you were not speaking to me, yet I found this statement very interesting; “The “legalism” that I’m against is the automatic, mindless (and prayerless) giving just ’cause the pastor said so.”
Could you please inform us as to last time you heard a sermon on tithing offering the specific basis for tithing being that the pastor said so?
In addition, you ask: “if I set up my bank account to automatically transfer (eft) 10% to my church the first Sunday following every payday, have I given as I should?. I would say, “no”.”
Sweet Lord Jesus! Poor Kathy and me. For several years now, according to you, our heretofore sincere gifts to our Lord have all been in vain. Why on earth the Lord has let me go on so long without knowing this sooner no clue exists.
And, if this is true–though I still possess doubts–somebody better get to the aged, pitifully deceived shut-ins and let them in on the truth: the offerings they faithfully and sacrificially mail into the Church every month offer no dividends in the Kingdom of God. By the way, integrity unhappily demands we mail it back.
More significantly, it stands strange to me how it is that we can curse ‘automatic, mindless (and prayerless)’ legalism on the one hand and then, with the very next stroke of the pen, set up an even uglier legalism on the other–judging as illegitimate giving that which comes via another route than presumably personal hand delivery.
Such a judgment is, from my view, nothing less than hard-core legalism–albeit qualitative rather than quantitative legalism–but legalism nonetheless.
Grace. With that, I am…
Peter
SelahV,
Me! Me! You forgot me!
SelahV,
Wasn’t it just a few posts ago you were saying you don’t get many comments?
Peter,
I don’t think I’ve ever been on the receiving end of your socratic irony before; makes me feel right at home ’cause that’s what flies back and forth over lunch when I meet with some close friends each week!
I have heard “because the pastor said so” in church within the past year. To be fair, it wasn’t a sermon but a sermonette given by a deacon before the offering.
Your example of the shut-ins mailing their checks implies they are doing so without thought or prayer: maybe some are, perhaps others aren’t. I have no way of knowing.
But I think I’ll stick with my point: there is a difference between giving 10% automatically in order to fulfill a list of rules about what it means to be a good Christian and prayerfully asking God how he would have you spend the money he has given you.
I guess the next question to ask is how does one discern God’s will. But I don’t want to go there tonight: I have a feeling it would lead right back to “bring the whole tithe into the storehouse”.
Hariette,
You wrote “Then He gives me instructions throughout His word on how to be benevolent, generous and show acts of kindness that may very well mean dipping into the other 90% to show I love my neighbor as myself.”
I thought that’s what I’ve been saying: that we seek God on what to give and it almost always adds up to more than 10%. What you’ve described is pretty much what I do; how is that different from my first comment or what Guy was saying?
Steve
Bowden, I truly believe you and I agree far more than disagree on this. We both agree that we should be teaching that we give everything we have to the Lord.
The part in which we disagree is that 10% is part of the “everything” we have and God seeks His own to bring first fruits to Him. Perhaps the thing we could use a conversation about is where He is to bring it to Him. It seems the “storehouse” is the problematic term in our conversation here. To me that means to God, His church, for His work–not some hefty bank account to accrue interest. To me that means Cooperative Program, Missions, Benevolence, as well as caring for a building and supporting the ministers called to our church. selahV
EVERYONE, praying you have a great day. Thanks so much for participating in this discussion. I pray I have not accused anyone of anything by my understanding of tithing and God’s instructions to me on the subject. From the outset, I said some thought tithing to be legalistic. I just don’t happen to agree that it is. That’s all. It’s simply part of the whole of God’s word in my limited understanding. selahV
Geoff, I didn’t forget you. you are buried in comment #53.
selahV
Roger, did I say that? selahV
Bowden,
I am unsure what you mean by the ‘receiving end of your irony’, but I assure you, I am not throwing anything for you to catch. Too much one can focus on the style of another rather than what he/she is saying.
In the last post, the point was singular, my Brother Bowden: you tore down one type of legalism only to construct another type of legalism. I was only raising the question whether your type was better.
Grace. With that, I am…
Peter
This is obviously not what anyone in this stream is supporting. But the following link does have to do with giving!
http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/wayoflife/12/27/prosperity.preachers.ap/index.html
His grace be with us all,
From the Middle East
MiddleEast: thanks for the link. what an eyeful that was! selahV
Somebody remarked that there is nothing wrong with tithing and everything right about it. I seriously want us to reconsider that statement.
Take a minute and read Numbers 18 which is the exact wording of the “statute/ordinance” of tithing. You will discover that (fortunately) the Church practices NONE of the OT tithing commands. Also see Lev 27:30-34. Also read Lev 27:30-34; Neh 10:35-39; 13:5-10; and 1st Chronicles, chapters 23 to 26.
(1) Tithes are only food from inside Israel.
(2) Tithes are NOT the same as firstfruits (compare Lev 27 with Numb 18 and Neh 10:35-37).
(3) Tithes are NOT necessarily the best (per Lev 27 and Numb 18).
(4) Only farmers and herdsmen possessed that which was considered tithe-able (not craftsmen or tradesmen such as carpenters, fishermen or tentmakers).
(4) The first whole tithe went to the Levite SERVANTS to the priests who correspond to our modern deacons, choir, church builders and politicians per Numb 3 and 1 Chron 23 to 26.
(5) The first whole tithe was brought, not to the Temple, but to the Levitical cities where 98% of the Levites and priests needed it for food per Neh 10:37b.
(6) The Levites and priests who received tithes were NOT allowed to own or inherit property (which is not followed by pastors today).
(7) Only OT priests could enter the holy buildings to worship God.
(8) According to Neh 13:5-10 the Temple storehouse was only two small rooms to feed the one course of 24 which rotated service there. The Temple was not large enough to hold the nation’s tithe. Today church money is stored, not in the church, but in its bank. Storehouse tithing is unscriptural.
(9) Tithing was never commanded to the church or Gentiles. Israel was forbidden to share its covenant with other nations.
(10) Since both the temple and the priesthood now reside within each believer it makes no sense to tithe to “priests” when everybody is one.
Again most Christians should give more than 10% and not feel fulfilled because they have somehow pleased God with only 10%.
http://www.shouldthechurchteachtithing.com
Dr. Kelly, Good morning and thank you for returning to further add to this discussion. You said, “Somebody remarked that there is nothing wrong with tithing and everything right about it. I seriously want us to reconsider that statement.”
I would love to dialog further about that also. The statement in and of itself is presupposing that folks are being taught something is wrong with tithing, as I see it. Surely you do not think there is something “wrong” with tithing should a person see it as something God wants them to do (such as me). It isn’t a sin to tithe, is it? And if there is nothing “wrong” about it, then what could not be “right” about it?
I haven’t read all the passages you have maticulously give us, but I will and I am sure you have the details of this far better analyzed and decyphered than I ever could. So I am most grateful for your input here. I encourage everyone to read for themselves with what you are hoping to edify us through these scriptures.
I agree with your last statement completely, “Again most Christians should give more than 10% and not feel fulfilled because they have somehow pleased God with only 10%.” I am never fulfilled with a mere 10%. Whenever I sacrificially give (and believe me it is always a sacrifice for me) the 10%, I always feel the need to give more. I’m never fulfilled with whatever I give. Until I die, I suppose I will never “feel” I’ve given enough of myself to my Lord for all He so generously bestows upon me. selahV
Dr.Kelly,
Would it be wrong to presume it is the term as used for the OT and the principle that goes with it that you feel to be incorrect teaching? Is it right to presume that everything we have belongs to the Lord, that we should be giving back to Him, and that the baseline amount should be 10%, preferably more? If I am understanding you correctly, then what Scriptures to you get this teaching from – the 10% amoun? I agree the NT teaches giving, it is the baseline amount or 10% that I don’t find in the Scriptures unless it is based on a tithing concept. Can you point me in the right direction?
Thanks,
Trish
Trish
You asked “Would it be wrong to presume it is the term as used for the OT and the principle that goes with it that you feel to be incorrect teaching?”
Yes. As I pointed out in the ten examples I gave (out of 25), the biblical term “tithing” was extremely narrowly confined to farmers and herdsmen living inside the boundaries of OT Israel. Even the Jews would not accept tithes from fellow Israelites who obtained them from defiled pagan lands. Read Alfred Edersheim’s Sketches of Jewish Social Life.
When the Christian church appropriates the word “tithing” it is not using it to refer to any of the OT principles and the OT usage is mocked. We read in 2 Cor 3:10-18 that OT doctrines have NO GLORY in comparison to the truth revealed through Jesus Christ in the New Covenant. And tithing was never commanded to the church after Calvary by the Holy Spirit. Along with the priesthood and Temple, New Covenant believers have a different temple and a different priesthood and a different set of guidelines for supporting gospel workers as seen in 1st Corinthians 9 and 16 and 2nd Corinthians 8 and 9.
You asked: “Is it right to presume that everything we have belongs to the Lord, that we should be giving back to Him, and that the baseline amount should be 10%, preferably more?”
There is no “baseline minimum” taught in the New Covenant. That is my complaint with tithing. Merely using the word “tithe” conjures up that kind of legalistic mentalityg. Many are not giving sacrificially until they give 15% or even 30% before they actually NOTICE it in their budget. That is proper and ignores the false 10% rule. However many of the very poorest are actually giving much more sacrificially when they give 3% or 4% because they can barely afford medicine and food and shelter. Ten percent is a false standard and never was a universal standard in the OT because it only applied to farmers and herdsmen. Jesus himself did not qualify as one who should pay tithes.
You asked: “If I understand you correctly, then what Scriptures do you get this teaching from – the 10% amount?”
I do not get 10% from any Scripture because it is simply not found in any command to the church. In Matthew 23:23 Jesus was addressing “scribes and Pharisees” about “matters of the law” because they sat “in Moses seat” per 23:2 and 2. In Hebrews 7:5, 12, 18-19 it was “necessary” (7:12) to “change” the law which commanded tithing (7:5) and that “change” was its complete “annulment” in 7:18 because of the “better covenant” of 7:19.
You said: “I agree the NT teaches giving. It is the baseline amount or 10% that I don’t find in the Scriptures unless it is based on a tithing concept. Can you point me in the right direction?”
Again, you have misread my comment. There never was a baseline for all Hebrews in the OT and there is no baseline for Christians in the New Covenant. The first point of my essay says:
Free-will giving existed before tithing. The following New Covenant free-will principles are found in Second Corinthians, chapters 8 and 9: (1) Giving is a “grace.” These chapters use the Greek word for “grace” eight times in reference to helping poor saints. (2) Give yourself to God first (8:5). (3) Give yourself to knowing God’s will (8:5). (4) Give in response to Christ’s gift (8:9; 9:15). (5) Give out of a sincere desire (8:8, 10, 12; 9:7). (6) Do not give because of any commandment (8:8, 10; 9:7). (7) Give beyond your ability (8:3, 11, 12). (8) Give to produce equality. This means that those who have more should give more in order to make up for the inability of those who cannot afford to give as much (8:12-14). (9) Give joyfully (8:2). (10) Give because you are growing spiritually (8:3, 4, 7). (11) Give because you want to continue growing spiritually (9:8, 10, 11). (12) Give because you are hearing the gospel preached (9:13).
Russ
Dr. Kelly,
Thanks for the clarification, it’s why I was asking the questions. This is a topic I have done some reading on and have struggled with some of the answers I have found. I actually came across your website and read some of what you wrote about a year ago, finding it quite interesting and informative, but definitely in the minority.
I’m still reading, still learning and I appreciate your contribution to the topic and for answering my questions, they were very helpful.
Trish
Well … I guess I’ll just have to go ahead and be wrong. I will continue to use 10% as the starting point for my giving (to my local church). I don’t know about the rest of you, but 10% IS a sacrifice around the Baggett house. Somehow I don’t think God will be displeased with me for doing so.
And I will continue to give thanks for the remnant of today’s faithful who continue to do so, and in so doing, effectively fund the ministries of Christ’s church and meet the needs of people in their communities.
In the end, I really don’t think people need all that much in the way of convincing to give the the license to keep more of “their” money for themselves.
Geoff,
Legalism is a natural step between antinomianism (against any law) and living by grace. That’s why God’s law is our “tutor that leads us to Christ” (Gal 3:24). As such, it is still “holy, righteous, and good” (Rom 7:12).
The OT law boiled down into the principles that God’s people should honor Him with their wealth because He is the provider and the ultimate owner of everything we possess. As such they were to provide for those who minister spiritually to God’s people, take care of the poor and needy, and provide for the ongoing worship of God. Everyone was involved in this principle. The laws of tithes, offerings, and sacrifices were concrete directives to lead people into the principle of stewardship as an an act of gratitude and worship. The OT principles of stewardship remain in a NT faith, even though the concrete directives may not.
Geoff, following “the principle of the tithe” is sound today — because the “principle” is sound, not because the “tithe” is. Wisdom is not only getting rid of bad habits, but of gaining and practicing good ones. To me, tithing is a “good habit” like brushing my teeth — I don’t have to think or consider of whether or not I want to do it regularly. The habit of the tithe by no means gives me a source of pride, but it automatically gets me into the realm of obedience without giving my selfish, sinful nature a chance to tell me otherwise. Beyond that, God gives me the opportunity to give as He directs beyond my tithe in the area of “freewill offerings.” All of these are an act of my worship and dedication to God.
The tragedy is when Christians get stuck with the law of the tithe. Living by “rules” makes one a legalist. Living by “principles” allows one to walk freely in His grace. If someone is still antinomian, then they need a “tutor.” If someone is living by grace in the power of His Spirit (Gal 5:16), then they still follow God’s law, but in a different way and for a different reason.
I hear you, brother. Our congregations are far too full of antinomians who haven’t learned the joy of giving. They need to start with learning some “rules” and gaining some good giving habits. In other words, they may need to start with Moses before they can understand Jesus.
The church is also too full of legalists who are concerned with “the rules” (Matt 23:23) — that’s where I feel that discussions about “net and gross” come in. They need to get past their pride and nitpicking and learn to give by grace. We need more believers who live by principle.
Kevin: Please tell us clearly exactly what you are trying to say.
Kevin wrote: “Legalism is a natural step between antinomianism (against any law) and living by grace. ….
This is a confusing comparison:
No Law (antinomian) —– Some Law? (legalism) —– What?” (grace)
It seems to place tithing under “legalism.” What is your point?
Kevin continued: “….That’s why God’s law is our “tutor that leads us to Christ” (Gal 3:24).
The text says:
Gal 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
…………..
Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. NASU
Gal 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. NASU
The righteousness which was formerly seen in the Mosaic Law is now seen in the person of Jesus Christ.
Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe. NASU
Kevin continued: “As such, it is still “holy, righteous, and good” (Rom 7:12).”
Yes, but Rom 7:12 is sandwiched between 7:4, 25 and 8:1.
Rom 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him NASU
…………….
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. NASU [This does not refer to the Mosaic Law]
Rom 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation [by the Mosaic Law] for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
Rom 8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh. NASU
I do not see how your logic proves that the law of tithing still survives while the remaining 600+ parts of the Mosaic Law no longer apply. That is very selective. The “law of the Spirit of lie in Christ” is the eternal moral law of God which supersedes the Mosaic Law and tithing is superseded by better principles.
Russ
Dr. Kelly,
Thanks for your posts on tithing. I lament with you the flung mud because of your position. No mud for you here, I assure. Perhaps disagreement. Can you accept disagreement?
Speaking only for myself, you have been perfectly clear: you do not believe tithing to be for the Church today. In fact, the way I understand your position, tithing only applied in the OT to “farmers and herdsmen living inside Israel.” If that is so, how Levites count as ‘farmers and herders’ baffles the socks off me (Numb. 18.25-29).
Nonetheless, I have no real ‘bone to pick’ with your position. I think you are fully free to embrace such as your deeper study has led you to formulate. Obviously, no one on this thread has dived as deeply into the sea as have you. Only folly would lead one to, without similar arms at hand, pair up with one such as yourself to contentiously engage the sea’s depth. That may explain, at least in part, why some SBC leaders will not swim in your pool. Were I you, I’d keep the PHD thesis out of the equation and just chat about it. PHDs have a way of intimidating discussion, do you not agree?
I first read of similar position in a little church book edited by the aged Lyle Schaller several years ago. I can’t even recall the title. Perhaps the most popular proponent in recent days of the nonNT nature of tithing was Bible Church pastor, the late Ray Stedman. A very convincing expositor.
What I do observe, Dr. Kelly, is a faint silhouette of mud being flung by your stern comments meant to splatter views held by those like myself who do indeed view tithing as a viable Christian practice: “the whole concept and use…is wrong for the church.”
Tithing itself is a part of the larger question of continuity and discontinuity of principles in Old and New Testaments. Scholars and theologians debate the degree of ‘dis’ and ‘con’ continually as you are perfectly aware. And, for me, to inject the conclusion of one side of discontinuity–the concept and use of tithing is wrong for the Church–without acknowledging some of the more sophisticated challenges to that discontinuity seems a bit unfair, Dr. Kelly.
From my perspective, there exists at least some ethical principles that transcend both testaments. For example, sexual behavior, which in the OT, precluded sexual engagement between human and nonhuman partners without a hint of prohibition in the NT. Yet, from where I sit, I do not know of anyone who would not argue that, as far as bestiality goes, “the whole concept and use…is wrong for the church.” Tell me, Dr. Kelly, did these folk get their informed authority for such an ethical principle from the New Testament Revelation about what constitutes proper sexual liaisons or was it the Old Testament?
For the sake of argument, suppose it is true that the Law of Sexuality–at least many portions of it–transcends the Testaments. Is it unreasonable to think that perhaps the Scriptural principles pertaining to Biblical Stewardship–at least many portions of it–could not also transcend the Testaments? I think not. Of course, this throws us back into the larger continuities/discontinuities conversation.
What I cannot settle for at this time, Dr. Kelly, is someone assuring me that the position I have come to from my own faint light I gain from God’s Word a) that the way I give to my Lord is inferior, totally wrong for me and goes entirely against Scripture b) it is spiritually harmful to me c) it makes me a moral legalist.
If that is what the Non-tithing sector of our Christian family is saying to me, know I sympathize precisely with what you have experienced from others, Dr. Kelly: I unhappily feel the cold mud now dripping down my brow.
Grace to you. With that, I am…
Peter
Peter, I couldn’t agree with you more! You have stated much of what I feel, but so much better than I could.
Russ, as someone who believes that the OT scriptures still remain inspired and profitable for our “teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness” (2 Tim 3:16) to the same extent that the NT scriptures are, the principles for stewardship in the OT remain. All of the OT laws remain valid — as interpreted through the life and ministry of Christ. I find no biblical evidence that we can toss out any part of God’s inspired word or give it a second-class status, because I certainly don’t find Jesus, Paul, or any of the NT writers doing that. After all, the OT Law was a revelation of God’s holy character and teaching for how His people should demonstrate His holy character (Lev 19:2). I don’t find Paul fighting against the OT laws or even jettisoning them in light of Christ, but instead understanding how Christ is their goal and completeness. Paul was arguing against people who were using God’s law as a means for salvation. It never was. After all, the law was given to redeemed people. It was a demonstration of how redeemed people ought to live.
Neither do I want to fight the OT teaching on stewardship, but instead understand how it leads us to faith in Christ. No, we are no longer under the OT law (Gal 3:25), but we are certainly instructed by it (2 Tim 3:16-17). All of the OT remains inspired and authoritative.
I find it interesting when I observe the ministry of Jesus and how He treated people. To those who were proud in their righteousness, He gave them the Law to convict them of their sin. To those who were humble, He offered them grace. After all, He was “full of grace and truth” (John 1:14).
Now, when it comes to stewardship, to those who don’t believe that they are obligated in their relationship with God to give anything, the Law clearly shows us that we are. To those who are following the OT giving laws and are smugly satisfied that they have fulfilled their religious obligation and that is all that God requires of them, they need to remember the true intent and purpose of God’s law — to lead us to faith in Christ, who alone can fulfill it. The OT laws on giving were a gift of His grace, a demonstration of a debt owed to God that no one could ever fully repay.
But to take someone who is humbly following God’s word as they see it and are faithfully giving to God and His work by tithing, not believing that it will in any way save their souls but instead sensing God’s peace on their hearts that they have honored God with their wealth — and condemn or criticize them because they are following an OT law in their giving — this seems to me to be at cross purposes with the mind and spirit of Christ. It could be that the Holy Spirit has led them individually to give 10%, and for them the concrete directive is just what they need. But if they do need further teaching, let us teach them gently, as the NT does, that God’s law is a great place to start in growing in the holiness of giving, but it is not a great place to finish.
Peter,
You have summed up my position precisely in #81 – good work. Happily we are not required to have written our dissertations in a particular subject area to have a learned opinion. Now if anyone wants to wrestle with me on Christian community or the finer points of existential philosophy and it’s effect in the church, be my guest.
Rob
Peter
Thank you for the comments. I really appreciate your tone and accept your mild rebukes. We all say things we want to retract later and I am a saved but fallible sinner.
You wrote: The way I understand your position, tithing only applied in the OT to “farmers and herdsmen living inside Israel.” If that is so, how Levites count as ‘farmers and herders’ baffles the socks off me (Numb. 18.25-29).
Comment: There are 16 of 16 Bible texts which describe the contents of tithe to back up my statement and none to oppose it. If you read Num 18:25-29 you will see that God is telling the Levites that their tenth of the tithe presented to the priests will be counted as if they had presented it from their own land –even though they actually received it as a gift.
One major flaw in pro-tithe theology assumes that the Levites and priests spent 100% of their time working at the Temple. This is very far from accurate. According to Joshua 20-21; Numbers 35; 1 Chon 6; 2 Chron 31:15-19 and Neh 10:37b 98% of both Levites and priests stayed in their Levitical cities where they received and ate the tithe. They spent most of their time working as farmers and herdsmen to raise and feed the tithed animals used for sacrifice. They also must have spent a lot of time learning trades and skills to be used in temple maintenance. This is seen in four chapters of 1 Chron 23 to 26. Only one of 24 courses of older men normally ministered in the Temple one week at a time.
You wrote: I think you are fully free to embrace such as your deeper study has led you to formulate.
Comment: I am far from alone in this. Martin Luther taught the same thing in 1525 as probably did John Calvin. Dr. David Croteau wrote his PHD at SEBTS on tithing and now teaches at Liberty. Dr. James Hudnut-Beumler at Vanderbilt proves my point in his latest book, In Search of the Almighty’s Dollar. SEBTS President Daniel Akin and SBC top theologians Andreas Kostenberger and David Alan Black fully agree along with several other theologians who prefer to be anonymous.
You wrote: That may explain, at least in part, why some SBC leaders will not swim in your pool.
Comment: My thesis is probably above the average church member and most of the preachers. It was written with seminary level teachers in mind. I am convinced that tithing was not in the vast majority of churches in this country until the 1890s and did not emerge with strength in the SBC until after 1925. Something is wrong when it took over 300 years to emerge as an “eternal moral expectation” for all believers. Not even seminary level professors will enter dialog with me, so don’t feel bad.
You wrote: PHDs have a way of intimidating discussion, do you not agree?
Comment: I try to leave it out occasionally and inevitably get the question “What makes you an authority on the subject?”
You wrote: Tithing itself is a part of the larger question of continuity and discontinuity of principles in Old and New Testaments.
Comment: We stand in the pulpit and proclaim that we have a “better” covenant, sacrifice, high priest, temple and provisions and then preach giving principles from the Old Covenant. Such shows a lack of faith in God’s ability to sustain His church using purely New Covenant principles.
2 Cor 3:10-11 For even that which was made glorious [the Old Covenant] had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. KJV
For me “the glory which excels” is that doctrine inspired by the Holy Spirit after Calvary to the church in terms of grace and faith.
You wrote: And, for me, to inject the conclusion of one side of discontinuity–the concept and use of tithing is wrong for the Church–without acknowledging some of the more sophisticated challenges to that discontinuity seems a bit unfair, Dr. Kelly.
Comment: I have at least 20 pro-tithing books and have carefully studied and rebutted every one of them on my site as proof-texting which ignores the biblical context. Please name me one “sophisticated” defense of tithing that uses sound hermeneutics. Even Randy Alcorn backed out of a debate with me in Christianity Today after reading my rebuttal of his arguments. All I want is an open forum with church leaders to argue my viewpoint and they have not allowed any discussion thus far which disagrees with their position paper.
You wrote: From my perspective, there exists at least some ethical principles that transcend both testaments.
Comment: Studies have been done among aborigine tribes around the world and there seems to be enough natural law that almost universally there are prohibitions against most of the ten commandments except Saturday sabbath. I see this in Romans 1: 18; 2:14-16; John 1:9 and in the story of Jonah and the Ninevites in the OT.
The problem is that there is no such principle which states that “If somethng is very old and very common, then it must be true and moral.” While that is often the argument implied to support pagan tithing traditions before Abraham, it is not quoted to support pagan idolatry, child sacrifices and temple prostitution.
I cannot understand why my frequent comments about “above 10%” giving are overlooked. Even J. Vernon McGee relates that he told a wealthy church member that “your problem is that you do tithe instead of giving so much more.” Read his book on Malachi; he opposes the idea of “storehouse” tithing as unbiblical.
The church does not need to be built on the extreme sacrifices of its poor when its affluent should give much more than 10%. In that respect the set percentage is wrong and I will not recant.
In Christ’s love
Russ Kelly
Brad Guenther said:
“AND we should certainly never give less than a tithe. And yet, I struggle with the quandary I see all the time of people who profess Christ, and show many fruits of Salvation, and yet continue to give far less than a tithe. I believe I read once recently that the average Christian gives less than 2%.”
The idea of a “Christian Tithe” misses the mark in so many ways. The principle of Jesus is “stewardship.” We will have to give an account for all (not just 10%) of our time, treasure, and talent. Does that mean we are to give 10% to the local church? Of course not. It is all God’s money, and we are RESPONSIBLE to determine where it goes. Some to the local church, some here, some there, etc. It is a sick distortion when preachers say we are to blindly give 10% to the local church and let them decide how to spend it. That also robs the joy from the giver, as they will have more joy when they are directed by God’s leading to give to various causes… some tax deductible, some not; some through church, and some by simply helping a neighbor.
The poor should never feel guilty about not tithing because they can’t afford it. In the OT, the poor actually RECEIVED a portion of the tithe. How sick and twisted to make the poor feel guilty, as if God demands it from them, and even sicker yet in promising them a blessing of financial return if they tithe (the “give to get” televangelist doctrine). Jesus’ story of the widow’s mite… was a freewill offering and had nothing to do with a tithe. And by the way, we are impressed with big givers, like Rick Warren who supposedly “tithes” 90%, yet Jesus said that the poor widow is actually giving more than them, because she gives from her need rather than from her plenty.
I agree, Brad, that it is sickening how little most Christians give. But teaching a doctrine of “Christian Tithing” is not the answer. Teaching “Christian Stewardship” is the right answer, per Jesus’ story of the talents. Our culture is heavily ground in consumerism and greed; how sad that some preachers have capitalized on that and have turned to a tithing doctrine and prosperity gospel message (give-to-get).
…Bernie
Dear Dr. Kelly,
If I am not mistaken, I offered full support for you and your community to embrace what you more and more with each comment state stronger and stronger–namely, tithing is a no-no. And I am glad your position may stand shoulder to shoulder from some of the worthies you mention. For the record, no where in my comments can it be implied that I suggested you stood alone. Indeed I mentioned Lyle Schaller & Ray Stedman as convincing notables.
Nor is your explanation of the priests’ ‘tithe of the tithe’ convincing. For whatever they gave, it was to be considered a ‘contribution to the Lord’.
Nor is the explanation of Natural Law an acceptable, final appeal for people of God. You yourself brought up “The “law of the Spirit of lie in Christ” is the eternal moral law of God which supersedes the Mosaic Law and tithing is superseded by better principles…”
The last time I checked, the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus speaks nothing of Natural Law. Nor does Natural Law fit snugly along side your ‘better principles’, which, from reading you, I thought you meant the NT. Am I mistaken? Thus, if I am correct, your maneuver appears to fail in your appeal to Natural Law sufficing for a thoroughly Biblical view of sexuality.
Nor is it acceptable to frame this exchange in the bleakest terms: “the church does not need to be built on the extreme sacrifices of its poor…”
Aside from the fact that you sound humorously akin to the Apostle Paul’s attitude about the Macedonians before he apparently changed his mind about receiving their sacrificial offerings (2Cor. 8.1-4), to imply that those of us who both practice and teach tithing as a godly, biblical and therefore, acceptably pleasing practice of stewardship to our Lord are, somehow bleeding our poor people out by demanding conformity to an unbiblical practice is, Dr. Kelly, with all due respect, nonsense. I feel now like I need a bath. Because I practice and teach tithing, I’ve been painted with colors of the huckstering televangelists who peddle their wares stealing old people’s money. To the gallows, Peter Lumpkins, heretic and dog!
To the contrary, it has been those same godly shut-ins who, through the years, with their consistent and sincerely genuine but meager gifts–’I mailed my tithes today’–that has breathed Biblical freshness, at least for me, into the wonderful idea of sacrificial stewardship. If that is harmful, well, then pop my zit…I never…
Nor shall I recant, Dr. Kelly. Peace. With that, I am…
Peter
Peter
Either you are taking me way too seriously or else you are sitting back laughing with me. Too bad we cannot be sitting in a room together. You sound like a lot of fun.
Of course I know that natural law is not the same as the law of love written in the heart. You seem to read everything I say searching for some mud which I donot intend.
And I am not thtowing mud on you becasue you tithe. Evidently your tithing is sacrificial giving, so God bless you for it.
I do detest the prosperity preachers. Most Chrisians in Africa and Indonesia and the Philippines think that TBN is the norm and it gives Christianity a bad name.
So far these sbc Impact discussionns have been short on actual discussion of Bible texts. I am not here to discuss philosphy but God’s Word. I suppose I ought to back out and let you guys finish among yourselves.
Peter says:
“To the contrary, it has been those same godly shut-ins who, through the years, with their consistent and sincerely genuine but meager gifts–’I mailed my tithes today’–that has breathed Biblical freshness, at least for me, into the wonderful idea of sacrificial stewardship. If that is harmful, well, then pop my zit…I never…”
What is “sacrificial stewardship” and what teaching in the NT supports that? When you find an NT passage, ask yourself who the money is collected for. Is it collected for a church or clergy, or for the relief of the poor? Huge difference. Maybe if today’s preachers were collecting money for relief for the poor, rather than building comfy church buildings and frivolous churchy things (like expensive pipe organs, etc), then churches would get more donations.
If you are receiving money (in a form of a tithe, not freewill offering) from a “shut-in” who is poor… the ones on a fixed income and struggling to survive with basic necessities, then I say shame on you. Some of these poor feel (unnecessarily) guilty if they don’t tithe; as if the church should be paid before their rent, medical bills, heating, food, etc. This is the nonsense that atheists (rightly) point to, when claiming that “religion” is harmful to the masses.
…Bernie
Dr Kelly,
I too wish for the more personable chat. I do hope my hopeless eye for irony does not squelch a needed conversation. It is I, Dr. Kelly, who shall reel in my tow and fish elsewhere.
One request: please do not judge our exchanges as a barometer to converse with others. Worst still, should it be viewed that the community here cares for philosophical discussions more than Biblical expositions. They decidedly do not.
I would close, but since I’ve already scoured your comment for some mud to sling, here is a ball hitting just under your left eye: I did not bring up Natural Law, i.e. the philosophical. Rather you did. Indeed I am the one who rejected your proposal of it.
Thank you, Dr. Kelly, for your patience toward me and good and–as serious as I can be–godly attitude in conversing in a subject that unfortunately has gotten you a lot of uncharitable mud. I desire not in the least to add to that unholy disgrace.
Peace. With that, I am…
Peter
Dear Bernie,
I’ve pulled my line in and placed it elsewhere. One quick nibble at your juicy worm: Were I of a mind to, I’d begin with the widow’s mite in my NT quest for sacrificial stewardship.
Grace to you, my brother. With that, I am…
Peter
Hi Peter,
As I previously wrote, I don’t think the Widow’s mite has anything to do with stewardship or tithing… it is simply a freewill offering. I think stewardship is best defined by Jesus’ parable of the talents. Everything one needs to know about tithing is pretty well explained there. There’s nothing sacrificial about it. What is more key is to understand that it is all God’s (our time, treasure, and talent). How can we sacrifice something that isn’t ours? If we are stewards, that means, by the very definition of the word, that we don’t “own” it anyway… therefore, it isn’t a sacrifice.
I think that is one thing that “Christian Tithe” teachers do, as a great disservice to their church members… confuse tithing, stewardship, first-fruits, and freewill offerings. Bringing-up the widow’s mite as an example of tithing or stewardship is one example of that.
…Bernie
“And he sat down opposite the treasury and watched the people putting money into the offering box. Many rich people put in large sums. And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which make a penny. And he called his disciples to him and said to them, ‘Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the offering box. For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on.’” Mark 12:41-44.
Now Benard, how exactly do you propose to deal with this New Testament Scripture. A poor widow, under obligation under the law to give something gives all that she had. Did she feel compelled by guilt? The text does not say, so therefore we will never know. What is noteworthy is the commendation given by Jesus to his disciples about her gift. Does He condemn the religious leaders for demanding the mite from a poor widow who, after the gift, has nothing for food and other necessities? No, that condemnation is not found in the text. Jesus seems to compare the gifts of those who gave most (but little) to that who gave little (but all). And what exactly did she give to? Well the treasury supplied the money for priests, the upkeep of the temple, and continued construction of the temple (only to be completed in 68 A.D.)
Like you, I cringe at those things which leadership spends money on (yes Peter, $60,000 dollar paintings). Nevertheless, Jesus commends the sacrificial heart of the giver – a poor widow. If a widow of the first century has the faith to believe in God to supply her needs, how can we not encourage the poorest of us to open up their eyes of faith? I thought that was what pleased God the most anyway – faith (Hebrews 11).
Rob
Dear SBCImpact,
SelahV gets the prize for posting a most interesting discussion, even pulling in a notable author who was able to offer an alternative understanding to many found here. The thread may pass 100. SelahV: you go, girl!
Grace. With that, I am…
Peter
RE: The Widow’s Mite
Rob said:
“A poor widow, under obligation under the law to give something gives all that she had.”
Under which law, exactly? The tithing law didn’t apply to her. The tithing law was for farmers (1 of every 10th sheep or cow raised in Israel) or from produce grown in Israel. Being poor, she neither owned land for produce or raised animals. She may have had to pay a “temple tax” but that is no “tithe” like a “Christian tithe” on 10% of income. From the text, it appears to be a freewill or love offering. So it appears to me she was under no obligation at all, which makes her gift even more precious.
Rob said:
“Does He condemn the religious leaders for demanding the mite from a poor widow who, after the gift, has nothing for food and other necessities?”
I don’t think the religious leaders demanded it, as you have suggested.
In the OT, the tithe actually partially went TO the poor, NEVER from them. You are confusing “tithe” with a freewill offering. The OT specifies who, what, and when; when it comes to tithing.
Deuteronomy 14:28-29 (NIV)
28 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year’s produce and store it in your towns, 29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.
How wonderful if the church actually cared about the aliens, fatherless, and widows; and rather than demanding from them, actually helped them. I know plenty of good churches that do the right thing; but when many don’t, it hurts us all as far as our image (and therefore, witness).
…Bernie
1) – Perhaps you have heard of some prosperity sharlaton “demanding” from all, particularly the poor, to give to give back. This is no more than a “Holy Lottery” with the exception that the “clergy” promise 100% return when no such thing occurs. That my friend is far from the faithful teaching biblical stewardship to all, poor and rich alike, and encouraging all, rich and poor, to live by faith in God with all that they are including thier finances.
2)- This statement “How wonderful if the church actually cared about the aliens, fatherless, and widows; and rather than demanding from them, actually helped them” is a straw man. No one here would disagree with you. You assume (wrongly)that those who would teach fidelity to bibilical precepts of stewardship would take food out of the mouths of the destitute and misfortunate. You paint with a broadbrush sir, despite your caveat about those whom you know which are “good churches”. That is offensive sir. For your information, we make no demands on a soul – we just preach Jesus crucified sir – the one who had it all who gave it all as a sacrifice in our behalf, and that to please Him and giving Him glory has more importance than our very comfort – and seeing to it that the fatherless, the widows, and the aliens among us should be cherished and cared for as if they were Jesus Himself.
3) – You did not answer my assertion that the treasury in which the widow contributied DID go to what I ascribed – “qui tacet consentire videtur”
Rob
Rob said:
“You did not answer my assertion that the treasury in which the widow contributied DID go to what I ascribed – “qui tacet consentire videtur””
Hi Rob- it didn’t say in the text what the offering was for. It could have been for general temple use, as you say. It makes no difference… the point is that it was not a tithe, but a freewill offering,,, a HUGE difference.
Rob said:
“You assume (wrongly)that those who would teach fidelity to bibilical precepts of stewardship would take food out of the mouths of the destitute and misfortunate. You paint with a broadbrush sir,”
It is well known from general church surveys that the majority of churches use something like 90% of their income to sustain themselves (mortgage, salaries, etc.)… which leaves like 10% for mission, outreach, etc. It is something I’ve seen in the past, but don’t have time to look for it now. For further info, look at your own church’s budget, and see what percentage of their income goes to actual ministry. Now that I think about that more deeply, it may be unfair, because even the salaries and mortgage go to doing God’s work if they are used for that purpose. However, there is still the big waste of money on what I would call “Churchianity” … the frivoluous “churchy” things… the things that most church members are blind to, such as the expensive pipe organs, stained-glass windows, religious costumes, entertainment systems, etc. In this case, usually what helps is getting the church exposed to real ministry. For example, if the church has $10,000 to spend, they may be tempted to spend it on some performance gadget or something splashly, if they don’t see other options. But if they have a heart for the poor, and work for the poor, you can bet they will have a TOTALLY different mindset.
Here’s a perfect example. Go to Gospel for Asia’s website and get their free book. Read the story about the Director and his experience (he was even a Pastor in the USA). His story exactly illustrates my point.
…Bernie
Rob – Just wanted to say Hi and please don’t confuse me with that other Bernie guy that’s in this thread (you called him Bernard and that bothered me
)
Good day to all!
I think most SBC preachers believe in and practice tithing. I get 10% from many Scriptures because that is simply what the word “tithe” means.
I’ll still preach Malachi 3:8-10 and, I think the most logical storehouse today is your local church. I’ve never been too impressed with those who “tithe” to themselves. (I’m not referring to anyone on this thread as tithing to themselves.)
At first some seemed to say that Jesus never advocated tithing. Then when Matthew 23:23 (also Luke 11:42) is pointed out, it is mentioned as invalid because Jesus was addressing “scribes and Pharisees.” Apparently that means that what Jesus said to them does not count for us. I sure hope Nicodemus wasn’t a Pharisee – if so, would that mean that John 3:16 does not apply to us? Wait, he was a Pharisee (John 3:1). But I’m still going to take John 3:16 as being for me, the church, and the world.
Another matter – the tithe was even practiced before the law was formally given in Exodus. The tithe is mentioned in Genesis 14:20 and 28:22 long before the giving of the law.
I’m going to keep on believing in tithes and offerings. I also still believe in John 3:16.
Again Selah, good post.
Sincerely,
David R. Brumbelow
Yes, ‘tithe’ means 10%, but that doesn’t mean Christians are to tithe. A “bloody Sacrifice” still means “bloody sacrifice” but we know longer do it… Jesus put an end to it.
Also, look into some “Systematic Theology” textbooks and see what it says about tithing. I have three, and they mention nothing about tithing. It can hardly be an important topic if it gets zero airplay. Unfortunately, many pastors are uneducated, and then many (educated or not) repeat what they’ve heard on the subject (from other uneducated Pastors).
I think you have not understand that Jesus was living under the Old Covenant. They also followed all the Jewish customs at that point… including bloody sacrifices. The Apostle Paul challenged all that, and it created a crisis… which parts of the law must be followed? The first Jerusalem council addressed the topic. Read about it in Acts 15… a watershed event in theology.
Wrong. That is not tithing, as it is practiced or taught today. That is simply a 10% offering. Jacob promised a tithe, a one-time tithe, to God if he was blessed and returned safely from his trip. Abraham gave a 10th to Melchizedek… but it was not from his earnings, but from the spoils of war. And what did he do with the other 90%? He also gave that away. So, your point was…? Tithing was actually and specifically given by God on Mt. Sinai:
I think the issue is one of terminology. People hear the word ‘tithe’ and think OT teaching when it appears from many on this post they teach and believe NT giving mixed with some OT concepts, such as the Lord’s storehouse.
No matter what term is used, ‘tithe,’ ‘give,’ ‘stewardship,’ etc. the principle seems to still be the same, we are to part with some of our finances, it is to find it’s way into the church and/or other ministries. And while we are parting with finances, we should part with some time and some talents. Everything we have belongs to the Lord, He placed it into our care and we should ALL of it wisely for Him.
Thanks SelahV for a wonderful post and a great, educational discussion that appears to have blessed many people and caused many to think and search the scriptures, being the Bereans we are to be.
God Bless,
Trish
Dear Bernie,(so sorry to Benard)
Your argumentum ad hominem in #99 was inappropriate. Because most pastors do not see it your way in this question is no reason to refer to their lack of education. If so, condemn most of the apostles in the same breath, okay? There are some if not many educated slobs on this board who, according to you, are “merely repeating what they have heard from uneducated pastors.” You yourself are slipping into a rabid legalism – yours is the only way. Is that how you want to come across?
Rob
Trish- I would go farther and say that these terms all mean something different: tithe, stewardship, firstfruits, freewill offering. One of the great disservices of tithe teachers and uneducated preachers are confusing all the terms together in one ball of wax.
Also, I don’t think the poor should tithe at all. I think the rich should give much more, and there is no such thing as a “minimum 10%.” That shows the harm of tithe teaching. It should be seen as a sin when a preacher asks the poor to tithe. To add insult to injury, some promise a financial “return” to the poor who tithe. A freewill offering is fine if the poor want to (like the Widow’s mite story), and that is a precious gift, but that is entirely different than demanding money from them, as tithe teachers do. The poor, rather, should be helped.
Rob- as for your comment, I was there, done that. I was one of the bunch, until I started studying it for myself. I’m sure that anyone who studies the details of tithing will come to the same conclusion, because it smacks of common sense. When you listen to all sides, the story has a way of sorting itself out. Many of the leading proponents of tithing are actually the ones who need it the most… because of their massive projects, such as megachurch Pastors and televangelists.
Just my opinion, I may be wrong, but it is a strong opinion coming from a deep conviction. I have experienced the joy of giving.
I actually give more than 10% of my time and money to God’s work (but not the local church). That may impress the tithe-teachers, but I feel that it still falls short of what God wants from me… we all struggle with this in different ways. But I’m very happy to be liberated from the “Christian tithing” doctrine nonsense and the burden I see on the poor deeply saddens me… while the rich can be self-righteous in their 10% giving, which is no sacrifice at all for them.
Does anybody on this thread want to discuss God’s Word or do you prefer to call anybody who disagrees with you legalists or antinomians or even worse?
What cannot we deal with facts?
Fact #1: According to historical docmuents there was no denomination in the USA which even discussed tithing before 1873. The SBC did not make its first pronouncement until 1896 and it still did not appear in the SBC Faith and Message in 1925. Why did it take so long to discover this gem of truth since Roger Willimasnm founded Rhode Island in 17638?
Facts #2: The SBC Facts and Trends reported that 20% of SBC pastors do not teach tithign even today.
Mr. DAvid Brumbelow
This thread has alrady discussed your comments and it gets tedious making the same statement over and over. Can we please discuss only one set of textgs ata tiem.?
I suggest Genesis 14. Here is my comments. How do you reply?
For the following reasons, Genesis 14:20 cannot be used as an example for Christians to tithe. (1) The Bible does not say that Abraham “freely” gave this tithe. (2) Abraham’s gift was NOT a holy tithe from God’s holy land gathered by God’s holy people under God’s holy Old Covenant. (3) Abraham’s tithe was only from pagan spoils of war and was required in many nations. (4) In Numbers 31, God only required 1% of spoils of war. (5) Abraham’s tithe to Melchizedek was a one-time recorded event. (6) Abraham’s tithe was not from his own personal property. (7) Abraham kept nothing for himself; he gave everything back. (8) Abraham’s tithe is not quoted anywhere in the Bible to endorse tithing. (9) Genesis 14, verse 21, is the key text. Since most commentaries explain verse 21 as an example of pagan Arab tradition, it is contradictory to explain the 90% of verse 21 as pagan, while insisting that the 10% of verse 20 was God’s will. (10) If Abraham is an example for Christians to give 10% to God, then he should also be an example for Christians to give the other 90% to Satan, or to the king of Sodom! (11) As priests themselves, neither Abraham nor Jacob had a Levitical priesthood to support; they probably left food for the poor at their altars.
Dr. Kelly,
What do you do about Hebrews 7 where the author is comparing Melchizedek and the Levite priests? Melchizedek is compared to the Son of God because he apparently has no parents, no geneology, and is said to be a perpetual priest. The author says that Abraham gave him a tenth of the choicest spoils and then talked about how the Levites collected a tenth from their people, the descendants of Abraham.
The author goes on to write how the mortal men received tithes, but so did Melchizedek who lives on. It says he collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed the one who had the promises.
Now, I was not really aware of this passage until just now because I went looking for passages that talked about tithing and found my way here, so I’m not that familiar with what the author is saying in this passage. But, in reading it over a few times, without benefit of a commentary or other resources, it does seem to be making a connection to Abraham giving a proper tithe to Melchizedek. I would go so far as to say that I want to study this passage some more and see if it is not where the 10% baseline amount for NT giving comes into the picture.
Not trying to be ornery or contentious, just trying to engage with the scriptures and learn about a topic I desire to understand better.
Thanks,
Trish
Dr. Kelly, I’m not going to call anyone names. And I think Trish is one of the most sincere individuals you’ll find who is searching for answers and desires to understand fully the scriptures. selahV
OTHERS: I’ve been under the weather and feel you are all doing well with the conversation stream. Please continue. This has been very interesting reading for me and I’m sure for others. selahV
I’m not a preacher, philosopher, or professor. Praise God that I am a child of the King. In an effort to bring a bit of love and honor to my dear SelahV’s post, I interject:
‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
To me, the bottom line is….if we love God, we will obey His commandments. I have learned from the beginning of my walk with God that he is certainly not a God of mystery. He tells us what to do–in His Word, through relationships, and through circumstances. Do as He has commanded–it’s not a mystery.
But, then again, I may be viewed as too simple to converse on this subject.
SelahV,
I guess I’m just staying out of it … I can’t imaging anything else I can bring into all of this back-and-forth. I reckon I’m just one of those uneducated pastors.
Karen…I love your simplicity. One thing is certain…God ain’t mad at you if you tithe. After all, you’ve purposed in your heart what to give the Lord. And I already know you give beyond that to others in numerous ways (even though you don’t see yourself as generous).
Geoff: there are numerous uneducated pastors out there. my husband will readily admit to be among them. He may have preached amiss, but the tithes and offerings that came into the church were used to minister to many many people. And through it many were saved. And through it many were discipled and many were led into full-time ministries and some went on to get far more education that he ever had. Maybe they’ll do better than us. selahV
Geoff: and another thing, this “back-and-forth” is going somewhere. Isn’t that what most blog comments are? back and forth discussions? Trish is bringing more to the table. I like her Melchizedek question. selahV
Oh, definitely … that’s what it’s about.
I guess I can offer this simple thought.
If, indeed, tithing is so “wrong” and such a damaging and erroneous doctrine that is being “imposed” upon the church, then why is it that the average percentage of giving is now under 3% for the average Christian in the US?
Again, I praise God for those good people under my watch-care who give sacrificially to the ministries of their church, especially those who commit to a faithful tithe.
Like you, SelahV, I have seen those funds used to bless many, many people.
Trish
Thanks for your question. Don’t be afraid of me. I don’t bite. I am a 63 year old legally blind man who lives in a small double wide mobile home with a loving wife, two children and five grand-children. I love everybody. I dress up and sing Elvis for fun to entertain all ages. http://www.russrocksingeorgia.com.
I have done extensive research on Melchizedek from Genesis 14:
http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id12.html
and from Hebrews 7:
http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id8.html
http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id62.html
I will try to summarize my view of Hebrew 7 for you and your sweet but meek friend.
(1) The Jewish Christians living around Jerusalem had never stopped supporting the Temple and its priesthood. Acts 21:20-21 said they were all still “zealous of the law.” I interpret that to mean that they were even still paying tithes to the Temple system. History reveals that they later apostatized and rejected Paul
(2) The writer of Hebrews was trying to convince them to give up their dependence on the law as also shown in Acts 15 and 21. He told them about the new and greater High Priest ministering in a greater heavenly sanctuary.
(3) 7:5 is the first mention in Hebrews of the words “law”, “commandment” and “tithes.” This is very important because it gives the context of these three words in chapter 7.
(4) Chapter 7 is not about tithing. It is about Jesus Christ the spiritual Melchizedek’s high priesthood completely annulling and replacing the physical law-supported high priesthood of Aaron. “Tithing” is merely the “vehicle” used to make his points. 7:1-4
(5) Point #1: 7:5: The law commanded the people to give tithes to the Aaronic priests.
(6) Point #2: 7:6-11: As a type of Christ, the historical Melchizedek, though not a Hebrew, was greater than Abraham and Levi because he received tithes.
(7) Point #3: 7:12: In order to remove the lesser Aaronic priesthood and replace it with the greater all-embracing non-Hebrew Melchizedek [Most High] it is “necessary” to “change” the laws (especially tithing) which financially supported the Aaronic priesthood from 7:5.
(8) Point #4: 7:13-17: Christ’s high priesthood is not supported by principles found in the law. Jesus was from Judah; Melchizedek was a Gentile.
(9) Point #5: 7:18: The “necessary” “change” to that part of the law which supported the Aaronic priesthood is its complete “annulment.”
(10) Point #6: 7:19: Christ’s high priesthood is sustained by “better” principles and a better covenant – Holy Spirit motivated.
RE: Hebrews 7
Trish- excellent question. Obviously you have an open mind and I see you honestly searching for truth. I am also not an expert on the Hebrews passage, but let me interpret based on what I’ve learned (or unlearned) about tithing (and also looking at the notes in my Ryrie study Bible.
There is a question… what is this passage talking about? What’s the point? The point is that Jesus is like a priest in the order of Melchizedek, not the old (current) Jewish Levitical system. Melchizedek preconfigures Christ as both Lord and King. The Melchizedek priesthood is greater than the Levitical. Prove it? Proof is that the Levitical tithed to the Melchizedek, in the form of Abraham tithing to Melchizedek.
Now about tithe—please note that Abraham’s tithe was nothing like the Jewish tithe. The Jewish tithe is specified in the Bible to be from crops and flocks. Abraham simply just gave 10% from the spoils of war when traveling back home from battle and was passing by Melchizedek. Melchizedek was the king and priest of Salem… this Salem was later conquered by King David and called Jerusalem, so it kind of makes me think it wasn’t all that holy of a place… why would God have King David invade it and take possession if so (2 Sam. 5)?
Also note the figurative speech when speaking about Melchizedek in Hebrews 7:3 (no geneology, no father or mother, no beginning or ending of life “like the Son of God”… obviously not literally true of Melchizedek).
So the whole point of this Scripture is to justify and explain how Jesus is a priest of a new and better Priesthood,,, better than the Levitical Priesthood instigated by Moses from God. And as I showed earlier by quoting scripture, Jewish tithing was part of the law given by God on Mt. Sinai (along with all the other commandments).
I agree, Karen. The problem is when someone starts teaching things contrary to God’s will… such as demanding money from the poor in the form of a tithe (instead of doing the opposite and helping them). You may not have heard of the sob stories and of people leaving the faith over this, but it is out there. Very sad. Meanwhile, the rich can easily give 10% and feel self-righteous.
Selah, are you able to say the reverse: “God ain’t mad at you if you DON’T tithe.” ???
Do you think the poor, the ones on food stamps and can’t afford to pay their heating bills and medicine, should tithe? This is where many of the “give-to-get” preachers chime in to say to tithe in order to be financially blessed by God. They (and their parrots) don’t see (or don’t care) about all the spiritual damage they are causing.
When Geoff said he was an uneducated pastor, he was just being sarcastic, so no need to seriously reply to that.
As I previously wrote, I agree there is a problem in lack of generosity. It is because of our culture of greed and commercialism. Many churches also show this same greed in many ways. The solution is not inventing another yoke or man-made rule such as “Christian tithing” but rather teaching stewardship principles, like Jesus did with the parable of the talents.
The Apostle Paul took many sacrificial offerings and gifts to the poor in Jerusalem because of their hardship. Lots of people gave… even out of their need, for the poor. I’m sure that if churches did that today (took collections for the poor and hurting), rather than raising multi-millions for a new church building, you’d see likewise generosity. “Churchianity” is the problem, and “Christian Tithing” is a doctrine of “churchianity.”
We need Christianity, not Churchianity.
I believe the tenth given from Abraham to Melchizedek is correctly deemed a tithe, since it is the point in Heb 7 that the Levites through Abraham tithed to Christ Himself (heb 7:8-10). A tithe seems to be a payment of a tenth of one’s produce, for sustenance, as spelled out in the Mosaic Law. It was given to Levites for their work in the Tabernacle, a principle undoubtedly carried over in the NT for churches to support those who dedicate their work to the ministry (1 Cor 9; 1 Tim 5:17-18). So, naturally, the question is why did Abraham tithe to Melchizedek? It is erroneous to suggest it was not a tithe because it would destroy the point in Hebrews regarding to a greater priesthood. I believe the reason he tithed was because the author of the Pentateuch was showing Abraham to be righteous even under the Law, having followed it even before it was written (see Gen 26:5). It was, therefore, written on his heart.
SelahV,
This is a great post, and has pushed me into the Bible to study some points brought up in this thread.
A few comments for others: I do not think it is healthy to suggest giving to the Lord is completely up to the individual’s discretion. This does not seem to be Scripturally supported. One may purpose in his heart to give (keeping in mind that the resolution one comes to is probably not a different one each morning, but probably one arrived at by faith and then kept as one would keep a resolution, not always with an immediate feeling of cheerfulness, as Geoff was alluding to). But the community has played an active role in the entire biblical account, and later in the outworking of the composition and consolidation of the canon of Scripture and in the formation of the NT church, so why eject it when determining to give?
The community of the church: First, it is there for accountability. If a church is not supporting its ministers or helping (first) needy brothers or (second) needy communities, then something is wrong. But if it is a free for all and everyone is to give wherever they like, what accountability do they have in what their own church fails to do? Second, it is there for unity of purpose in ministry. Again, if everyone gives where they deem appropriate, how is a church to support those it needs to help? If there isn’t a central mission and purpose and concerted effort to give to the church, it is powerless to meet some of your demands for social justice. And then there is the lack of ability to heed Paul’s demand to support those in ministry with double honor. Obviously Paul had no problem with the people giving money for salary. (And as an aside, Jesus didn’t seem to heed Judas’ complaint about selling the stained-glass window, err, the perfume for money to give to the poor).
Churches as a community of believers concertedly gave to Jerusalem in their need. Churches are the central communities of worship and outreach/evangelism; charities are not. A “call of God” to give here or there may appease conscience or perhaps pride in some, but without community involvement, just like in everything else (including the notion that individuals can interpret any passage how they see fit) there exists no accountability of community, which is a God-given guide to every believer to live the faithful Christian life.
Russ,
I just found your comment (#111) in our spam filter. It was flagged because it had more than one hyperlink in it. Sorry I didn’t catch it last night.
Geoff,
You said, “If, indeed, tithing is so ‘wrong’ and such a damaging and erroneous doctrine that is being ‘imposed’ upon the church, then why is it that the average percentage of giving is now under 3% for the average Christian in the US?”
I would like to refer you back to my comment above (#9). Could it be that when we teach “all of it is God’s & he let’s me keep 90%,” we are unintentionally contradicting the Scriptural truth that we (and all “things” under our stewardship as ambassadors of the King) have been bought with a price. It follows, as ambassadors, that all of our decisions (financial and otherwise) should be made with the “advancement of the Kingdom” as the primary motivation and factor in these decisions.
My contention is that this teaching is much more “radical” and “counter-cultural” than giving 10%. Just as Jesus’ teaching that even thinking evil of someone is the same as killing them or lusting after a woman is comparable to committing adultery. Are followers of Jesus ready for the whole truth? Should we preach the shadow of what was to come or should we proclaim “It ain’t ours, it’s His. We ain’t even ours, we’re His. We should use all of ourselves and all of this stuff to advance the Kingdom!”
I truly do not mean to sound condescending, rude, etc (I wish we could do these things face to face where emotion and nonverbals are present). But my question is: Could it be that teaching 10% is “watering” down Jesus’ teaching?
Geoff, my brother, please take no offense as I do not intend this post in that way.
His grace, mercy and peace be yours in abundance,
From the Middle East
PS – Just to throw a fun kink into this whole thing: Let’s all sit down and list what we believe our priorities are (as the Church), then look at a pie chart of our church budget. Do they line up? Could this be the reason folks aren’t giving?
Dr. Kelly, (regarding comment #103)
. If your statistic is right, some 80% of SBC pastors believe in tithing. They are not ignorant dictators.
You and one or two of your supporters make some strong assertions that to me border on bullying tactics. There are preachers I know and greatly respect that would not agree with me on all aspects of giving. I do not browbeat them or talk of how uneducated they are. I don’t condemn them for not reading all my comments. I simply disagree with them, knowing that God will gently set them straight when we all get to Heaven
You and others seem to have an attitude that once you make a pronouncement on a Scripture, no one else can ever bring it up again. I totally reject that attitude. You have made pronouncements, and some of us simply believe some of those pronouncements are wrong. I will continue to use the Scriptures on tithing whether or not you say I can.
The argument that Southern Baptists did not believe in tithing until 1925 is very weak. You could use the same argument that Southern Baptists thought homosexuality was fine until AD 2000, when we commented about it in the Baptist Faith & Message. Of course, that would be a ridiculous argument. Baptists have always believed the Bible teaches against it, it just did not become a big issue until the late 1900s. Besides, I have a historical document that says saints have believed in tithing at least since Abraham. This “gem of truth” happened roughly 4,000 years ago.
You asked me to reply to each of your 11 assertions concerning Genesis 14. I will do so in a following comment if SBC Impact does not grow weary of me.
Of course you assert that Abraham did not tithe. After reading your assertions, I looked up Genesis 14 and it still says that Abraham tithed. No, it does not spell out what Abraham did with his weekly paychecks, but in this particular incident it says Abraham tithed to Melchizedek, priest of Salem. In Hebrews 7:2 Paul (just thought I‘d get another argument started) also said Abraham tithed. So there you have it, the witness of Moses and Paul (?), of course all inspired Scripture. Argue all you want, the fact remains that Genesis 14 says that Abraham tithed. The same goes for Genesis 28:22. Jacob said, “Of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You.” Jacob sounded like a tithing Southern Baptist. His words could be and probably have been included on SBC stewardship posters like the old ones, “Every Baptist A Tither.”
Malachi 3 is plainly written to all the people of Israel and it teaches tithing.
In the middle of excoriating the Pharisees for their sinful attitudes, Jesus actually commended them for their meticulous tithing in Matthew 23:23. When Jesus commends something it just impresses the fire out of me. The Pharisees were actually doing something right. I have Jesus’ word on it. Explain it away all you want. But Jesus still commended tithing.
Another point on Matthew 23:23. Jesus also commended justice, mercy and faith. Are we to throw them out along with tithing since Jesus was speaking to Pharisees about the law? I’ll answer that. No.
Anyone who knows me knows I am not exactly a mega church pastor. But they are to preach the truth of God’s Word just as I do. As I stated before, I don’t believe in the “prosperity gospel” but the Bible plainly teaches tithing for everyone.
The Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 16:2 that we are to give as we “prosper.” The early church was primarily made up of Jews. Even the new gentile believers would have known, or quickly become acquainted with the Old Testament. When they were told to give as they prosper, that would have fit in perfectly with the 10%, the tithe. They would have thought of how Abraham and Jacob tithed as they propsered. How all of Israel was commanded to tithe in Malachi 3. Again, giving as we prosper fits perfectly with concept of the tithe. I tell folks that if you are poor, you can give as much as the rich.
My first paying job was mowing the yard of First Baptist Church, Cypress, TX for the huge sum of $7. I felt a little guilty getting paid that much. But I felt like I was bankrolling the entire church when I gave my 70 cent tithe. In a sense I was; I was giving as much as the richest member of the church. I was giving as I prospered.
The New Testament Scriptures on giving never cancel out tithing, they back up and enhance it. They do cancel out ceremonial days, unclean foods, etc. But never tithing.
It has been my experience that most, not all, of those who speak so strongly against tithing do so because they give less than the tithe.
To the educated and uneducated out there. There are good, godly people who believe in tithing – and some who don’t. I don’t know that there are any good, godly people who don’t give. You can give without loving, but you can’t love without giving. My simple plea is, read all the arguments you want, then go back and see if the Bible still commends tithing. It does.
Selah, this is your fault; you started all this
. I pray you get to feeling better.
May God bless all who give tithes and offerings, even if they don’t believe in tithing.
Sincerely,
David R. Brumbelow
David B….:) I did start this, didn’t I? I truly appreciate the boldness with which you argue and the diplomacy with which you’ve engaged your opposing view. I’ve not tired of your thoughts and am grateful for them. selahV
Like I said … can of worms.
While I might not come down on the side of the hardline “everybody gotta tithe all the time” folks, I don’t exactly think an “anti-tithe” crusade is a good idea, either.
My “opposition”, for lack of a better word, is to the idea that the church should enforce or require tithing; I have absolutely no opposition to tithing and even highly recommend it.
Wouldn’t want anyone to get a wrong idea about me ten years down the road, or something
Bernard Shuford
Trish,
I would be interested in feedback from you as to my Hebrews 7 answer. You seem open-minded and willing to learn.
In addition, I would add that there may have been (at least) two customs (of church practice) in the early church. The Jewish Christians at Jerusalem and the Gentile Christians did not practice Christianity in the same way. This is why there was a big conflict and it was sorted out at the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15. Obviously, the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem were of one mind, and so they had to sort out what the Apostle Paul was doing elsewhere… if it was legit or not, and how much of the Jewish system the gentile converts of Paul should adhere to. Keep in mind that the letter of the Hebrews was written to Jewish Christians… that may also help to understand something about the reference. Here’s what the Ryrie intro notes say:
In addition, I think Hebrews is the only book of the Bible in which experts say the author is unknown. If we knew who wrote it, it would shed more light on the whole topic. As it is, there is this one passage that mentions tithing, so some take it and run with it, making it mean what they want it to mean. Does this passage say that Christians should tithe? No. If someone thinks so, please tell me which verse. I think those who are using this passage to support tithing are like modern day Judaizers.
To the person called “From the Middle East”… I agree with you 100%. If you truly are from there, I’m sure you must also be wondering why American Christianity is so messed-up… Christian Zionism, prosperity gospel, etc. I’m one of those trying to be a voice of reform. You are in my prayers… I know how life can be unbearable and hellish over there. So many Christians over here are naïve, taking Holy Land Tours and Holy Land Cruises and thinking everything is rosy (they are off-the-hook because they gave their minimum 10% tithe). What a tremendous delusion and deception. For anyone who wants to open their eyes, I suggest this book by Brother Andrew “Light Force: A Stirring Account of the Church Caught in the Middle East Crossfire”.
…Bernie
David R. Brumbelow
You said: You and one or two of your supporters make some strong assertions that to me border on bullying tactics.
Comment: Kindly explain. It seems to me that the bullying tactics come from those who kick those out of their churches who want to discuss tithing. I cannot produce a single person who has been kicked out of any church because they AGREED with tithing. The Christian press uses bullying tactics when it refuses to allow the other viewpoint a hearing. You are totally unfair accusing me of bullying when the shoe is heavily on the foot.
You said: If your statistic is right, some 80% of SBC pastors believe in tithing. They are not ignorant dictators.
Comment: You use the words “ignorant dictators” and the cruelly try to place them into my mouth. That is wrong. My point is that those 20% are never heard from except in the case of Dr. Daniel Akin, Dr. Andreas Kostenberger and Dr. David Alan Black at SEBTS. The others are afraid of what you call bullying from those who disagree with them.
You said: You and others seem to have an attitude that once you make a pronouncement on a Scripture, no one else can ever bring it up again.
Comment: You will later close this discussion with your own pronouncement “My simple plea is, read all the arguments you want, then go back and see if the Bible still commends tithing. It does.” I merely pointed out that most of your objections have already been discussed in the past few days on this thread. If you want to bring them up again that is fine with me. I will merely repeat what I have said before and ask for an honest answer using God’s Word.
You said: The argument that Southern Baptists did not believe in tithing until 1925 is very weak.
Comment: The SBC Encyclopedia points out the early Baptists in the USA did not teach tithing and preferred to be self-supporting. That is the historical position of Roger Williams who founded Rhode Island with Baptists in 1638. I merely point out that it took over 300 years for the SBC to merely insert tithing texts into the Faith in 1963. That fact should make you ask why the select committee who wrote the 1925 Faith chose not to include those texts in its Stewardship statement. The Dean of Vanderbilt, Dr. James Hudnu-Beumler, in his 2007 book, In Search of the Almighty’s Dollar, proves that, prior to 1873-1878, tithing was not even discussed in US churches. Is he right or not? Can you show me where the SBC taught tithing before then?
You wrote: Baptists have always believed the Bible teaches against it [tithing], it just did not become a big issue until the late 1900s.
Comment: So you agree with me. They what are you upset about? I merely want the Baptist church to go back to its roots.
You wrote: Besides, I have a historical document that says saints have believed in tithing at least since Abraham.
Comment: The Semite Canaanite pagans who surrounded practiced tithing before Abraham as did the Babylonians and many others. That fact does not make it an eternal moral principle, does it? If it does then we can also argue for the validity of idol worship, child sacrifices, temple prostitution, etc, etc, etc, which are equally old and widespread.
You wrote: Of course you assert that Abraham did not tithe. After reading your assertions,
Comment: I said that Abraham’s tithe was not a true holy tithe from God’s holy land under God’s holy covenant by God’s holy people. It was a common pagan spoils-of-war tithe. In Numbers 31 the “ordinance” of God only required 1% from spoils of war. Also, spoils of war came from defiled pagan dust and could not be accepted in the Temple as holy tithes. Is that correct or not? Please do not twist my words.
You wrote: I looked up Genesis 14 and it still says that Abraham tithed. … In Hebrews 7:2 Paul also said Abraham tithed. So there you have it, the witness of Moses and Paul.
Comment: You are being cute now, not me. And what part of his tithe was as holy as tithes described under the law? None. Did you read Hebrews 7:4 where it was spoils of war?
You wrote: Argue all you want, the fact remains that Genesis 14 says that Abraham tithed.
Comment: The fact is that Abraham tithed pagan spoils of war and nothing holy as defined under the law. Why did he tithe? Do some research. Look up Genesis 14:21 in at least 10 commentaries. Most commentaries say it was in obedience to well know pagan Arab tradition —even Baptists say that in the Wycliffe Bible Commentary.
You wrote: The same goes for Genesis 28:22. Jacob said, all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You. Jacob sounded like a tithing Southern Baptist. His words could be and probably have been included on SBC stewardship posters like the old ones, Every Baptist A Tither.
Comment: You have got to be kidding me, right? Since when is a “tithing Southern Baptist” supposed to say “God, you give me something first and meet all of my demands and only then will l give you a tithe”? Again, read the text in context. And to whom do you think Jacob gave his tithe? Priests? Preachers? He probably left something for the poor when he built stone altars for Yahweh. What percentage of our tithes goes to the poor?
You wrote: Malachi 3 is plainly written to all the people of Israel and it teaches tithing.
Comment: Correct. Malachi 3 is PLAINLY written to all the people of Israel —because they had agreed to the blessings and curses of the Mosaic Law in Nehemiah 10:29 and Malachi 4:4. Those are the identical conditions seen in Deuteronomy 28:12, 23-24. If Malachi had any relevance to the Church then I would expect the Holy Spirit to see a necessity to apply it to the Church after Calvary.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.
You wrote: In the middle of excoriating the Pharisees for their sinful attitudes, Jesus actually commended them for their meticulous tithing in Matthew 23:23. When Jesus commends something it just impresses the fire out of me. The Pharisees were actually doing something right. I have Jesus word on it. Explain it away all you want. But Jesus still commended tithing.
Comment: Let’s look at Matthew 23:23:
Matt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Using proper hermeneutics:
(1) Jesus is speaking to “scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites.” He is not speaking to Gentile disciples because they could not have tithed even if they want to do so.
(2) Jesus is speaking about “matters of the law.” He is not addressing the church about principles of giving which Paul would later teach in 2 Cor 8 and 9.
(3) The Pharisees had made the law of tithing a burden by including ordinary herbs and spices. Yet no Christian church collects garden spices in its offering plate.
(4) Most commentators say that “judgment, mercy and faith” are “weightier matters of the law” because they are eternal and moral principles.
(5) Tithing was not a “weightier” matter of the law because it was a temporary ceremonial/cultic statute/ordinance which would soon end at Calvary as in Heb 7:18.
(6) Jesus told his Jewish disciples to obey the Pharisees because they “sit in Moses’ seat.” He did not tell Gentile disciples to tithe because they Pharisees “sit in Moses seat.”
Matt 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
Matt 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
You wrote: Another point on Matthew 23:23. Jesus also commended justice, mercy and faith. Are we to throw them out along with tithing since Jesus was speaking to Pharisees about the law? l answer that. No.
Comment: I also answer “no.” They were distinctly “weightier matters of the law” because they are eternal moral principles which reflect the righteous character of God.
You wrote: The Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 16:2 that we are to give as we prosper.
Comment: You connect 1 Cor 16:2 with tithing but most tithe-teachers do not. They say it is a discussion of freewill offerings that only come after tithing. Your argument is not consistent with the usual arguments of tithing here.
You wrote: [1 Cor 16:2] … that would have fit in perfectly with the 10%, the tithe.
Comment: The early church did not teach tithing. Robert Baker is the dean of Southern Baptist historians and he writes: A Summary of Christian History [p194, 250] (Nashville: Broadman, 1959), 11, 43. “The leaders [before A.D. 100] usually worked with their hands for their material needs. There was no artificial distinction between clergy and laity.” … “The earliest bishops or presbyters engaged in secular labor to make their living and performed the duties of their church office when not at work.”
Tithing was not forced into the church for over 500 years and did not have the authority of law for over 700 years. Baptists did not begin teaching tithing for almost 250 years after becoming a church.
You wrote: I tell folks that if you are poor, you can give as much as the rich.
Comment: I tell folks to obey 1st Timothy 5:8 and buy your medicine and food and shelter first and then give a freewill offering to the best of your ability. Tithes were never the same as firstfruits. Churches should not tell the poor to give to the church first and do without necessities.
I also tell folks to obey 2 Cor 8:12-14. The rich can give 15% or 30% before they are giving sacrificially while the poor may be giving sacrificially when they only give 2% or 3%. This is my main complaint with tithe-teaching. It discriminates against the truly poor! The texts teach that the rich should give more while the poor give less and it EQUALS out in the end.
You wrote: The New Testament Scriptures on giving never cancel out tithing; they back up and enhance it.
Comment: Where are your texts which teach this? (1) The priesthood it supported is now the priesthood of every believer. (2) The Temple it supported is now within every believer. (3) The holy land it came from is not our land. How can everything connected to tithing be gone but tithing still exist?
You wrote: They do cancel out ceremonial days, unclean foods, etc. But never tithing.
Comment: ??? Almost everything in Leviticus was “ceremonial” and was called “holy” or “most holy” and the last ceremonial statute in Leviticus is tithing! How can everything else lose its relevance except tithing?
You wrote: It has been my experience that most, not all, of those who speak so strongly against tithing do so because they give less than the tithe.
Comment: Don’t judge me. I probably give a greater percentage of my income to promote the gospel than most tithers. However, even if your remark were true, why do you say it? Does saying it automatically make teaching tithing correct?
You wrote: You can give without loving, but you can’t love without giving.
Comment: I agree. The more you love, the more you give with absolutely no regard to any percentage.
You wrote: My simple plea is, read all the arguments you want, then go back and see if the Bible still commends tithing. It does.
Comment: This is where you began —by criticizing me because you said I take the attitude that I am the only one who is correct. Read your opening comments.
You wrote: Selah, this is your fault; you started all this
. I pray you get to feeling better.
Comment: Selah. If I were to be quiet somebody else out there would take my place. Sincere Christians like myself are all over the Internet. God’s truth will be heard. In 1525 Martin Luther wrote: I am no Jew. Do not entangle me with Moses. If I accept Moses in one respect [Paul tells the Galatians in chapter 5:3], then I am obligated to keep the entire law.” For not one little period in Moses pertains to us….
Thus I keep the commandments which Moses has given, not because Moses gave the commandment, but because they have been implanted in me by nature, and Moses agrees exactly with nature, etc. … It is not enough simply to look and see whether this is God’s word, whether God has said it; rather we must look and see to whom it has been spoken, whether it fits us. That makes all the difference between night and day…..
I have stated that all Christians, and especially those who handle the word of God and attempt to teach others, should take heed and learn Moses aright. Thus where he gives the commandments, we are not to follow him except so far as he agrees with the natural law.
You wrote: May God bless all who give tithes and offerings, even if they don’t believe in tithing.
Comment: More sarcasm from you, not me. You have no blessing for a poor family who spends its money on medicine and food and has little left to give. Cruel. Actually nobody really biblically “tithes” today because God’s Word limits tithes to food from inside his holy land. The esteemed Alfred Edersheim pointed out that even Jews could tithe food which had been produced outside of Israel. We simply need to make out modern rhetoric match God’s Word. Is that asking too much?
In Christ’s love
Russ Kelly
This is kinda getting out of control.
1)No one on this thread Dr. Kelly has kicked anybody out of the churches because of their view on tithing. Let us disengage from the ideology and some of those who may also hold the same and do some things that lack grace. Okay? I acknowledge that it was not you who called some uneducated or Judiazers, but then again you did not call them down on it either. If we cannot discuss these issues without issuing the ad hominems, then please let us cease.
2)Let us accept the fact that we probably will not convince either side of our point of view. That this is a “non-essential” issue. Each side agrees that giving to the Lord is paramount for the believer in their lives. The disagreement is around if the Bible gives a standard that derives itself from the O.T. or not. Those on either side are not evil – so the continued use of ad hominmens is inappropriate and merely speak to the possible weakness of the argument – are you listening Bernie?
Grace and PEACE!
Rob
A note Dr. Kelly – your statement right here is interesting: “The rich can give 15% or 30% before they are giving sacrificially while the poor may be giving sacrificially when they only give 2% or 3%.” This strikes me as both an assumption and a legalism. How can you condemn a percentage tithe (10%) yet advocate in the same breath a 15-30% gift that would be considered “sacrificial”? What exactly do you base this percentage upon?
Rob
Another point (sorry) Dr. Kelly. The point of Mark 12 it seems is the sacrificial gift of the poor widow, who by faith gave her all into the treasury. Are you saying that the church should decline the gift of the poor who by their own free volition give to God even if it means all of their income? How can the declining of that gift be validated by Scripture in the face of Mark 12?
Rob
Rob
Why are twisting my words?
You said: No one on this thread Dr. Kelly has kicked anybody out of the churches because of their view on tithing.
I said: It seems to me that the bullying tactics come from those who kick those out of their churches who want to discuss tithing. I cannot produce a single person who has been kicked out of any church because they AGREED with tithing.
I personally have been treated like pond scum by many SBC chcurches merely becasue I ask questions about tithing. It has taken me seven years to find a church.
They will not answer my letters, e-mails or phone calls. They will not let me sit on committees which are studying changes in the Faith and Message on stewardship. Why? They absoluely do not want the other viewpoint heard. Profe me wrong. I would love to be proven wrong for the glory of God.
Just go to our blog site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tithing-Study/messages and you will find about 100 who have been pushed out of their churches because of wanting to discuss tithing.
I am not calling names. I am merely presenting facts. If this group wants me to leave I will gladly leave.
In Christ’s lvoe
Russ Kelly
Dr. Kelly,
Please don’t leave, I appreciate the information you bring to the table about this topic. The back and forth has its pros and cons, but I think most, if not all, are able to sort through things and find the meat in all this mix.
I’ve been out of pocket all day and am just now reading the many comments. There is much here to digest and sort out, but I definitely plan on doing so.
If anyone has gone to my blog and read about my background, you will know that I am someone who came to Christ as an older adult from a Catholic background @7 yrs ago and joined a Baptist church @2 yrs ago. I am a trying to learn more about my faith and more about being Baptist. I’m also a seminary student preparing for ministry. If I’ve learned anything in my journey, it’s that there is a lot to learn and I will probably not even make a dent in the treasures of Christ that are there to be learned.
I appreciate everyone’s input and perspective on this topic and want to say thank you to each of you.
If I don’t get back here tonight, let me wish all of you a blessed New Year!
Trish
Rob
You said: The point of Mark 12 it seems is the sacrificial gift of the poor widow, who by faith gave her all into the treasury. Are you saying that the church should decline the gift of the poor who by their own free volition give to God even if it means all of their income?
Reply: No. No. A thousand times “no.”
The poor widow’s mite has absolutely nothing to do with tithing and everything to do with sacrificially, cheerfully, non grudgingly giving freewill offerings!
Many tithe teachers (and I am not referring to anybody on this thread) and some SBC tracts teach that the tithe is a firstfruit which MUST be given to the church FIRST as a minimum OBLIGATION and not as a freewill offering. That is the kind of nonsense I am against. They make the poor people feel so guilty that they give a tithe in FEAR that they will be cursed and then they do without medicine and food and heat for their families.
Paul said in 1st Timothy 5:8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
The poor widow was not FORCED by OBLIGATION to give anything. She freely CHOSE to place her last penny in the chest in the Temple designated to feed the poor. God bless her. That was her choice. There is a world of difference between freewill choices and threats of curses connected with tithing.
The Bible set high expectation for the treatment of the poor. They could enter any home which had room for food and shelter at night. And, most likely, that poor widow was given MORE money out of that same treasure chest before she left the Temple. That is what it was for!!!!
My wife and I have no savings account and live from paycheck to paycheck. Yet we gave some friends over one quarter of our income in December because they were out of a job. We are giving people too.
Selah,
Thanks for your comments and encouragement. I also appreciate the comments of Peter, Rob, Kevin, and others.
Dr. Kelly,
In comment #103 you asked me to answer the following and I later promised in comment #117 to do so. So here goes.
You said:
“For the following reasons, Genesis 14:20 cannot be used as an example for Christians to tithe. (1) The Bible does not say that Abraham “freely” gave this tithe. (2) Abraham’s gift was NOT a holy tithe from God’s holy land gathered by God’s holy people under God’s holy Old Covenant. (3) Abraham’s tithe was only from pagan spoils of war and was required in many nations. (4) In Numbers 31, God only required 1% of spoils of war. (5) Abraham’s tithe to Melchizedek was a one-time recorded event. (6) Abraham’s tithe was not from his own personal property. (7) Abraham kept nothing for himself; he gave everything back. (8) Abraham’s tithe is not quoted anywhere in the Bible to endorse tithing. (9) Genesis 14, verse 21, is the key text. Since most commentaries explain verse 21 as an example of pagan Arab tradition, it is contradictory to explain the 90% of verse 21 as pagan, while insisting that the 10% of verse 20 was God’s will. (10) If Abraham is an example for Christians to give 10% to God, then he should also be an example for Christians to give the other 90% to Satan, or to the king of Sodom! (11) As priests themselves, neither Abraham nor Jacob had a Levitical priesthood to support; they probably left food for the poor at their altars.” -Dr. Kelly
My reply:
1. So your argument is from silence. I’ve given tithes freely but have not always used that word to characterize it. Does that mean it was not a tithe? I have also given tithes under coercion, like when mom and dad made me place a dime in the offering plate from a dollar. God bless them.
2. Does it matter where the money came from? Abraham still tithed it. The provenance or source of origin of that $10 tithe does not have to be all “holy” for it to be a tithe. You say it was not under the Old Covenant. Really that is part of my point, Abraham and Jacob practiced tithing before the giving of the law.
3. I have earned money from pagans and tithed it. And God blessed me for it, just as I’m sure Abraham was blessed.
4. If that is true then Numbers 31 is not talking about the tithe. I never said it did. That has nothing to do with the fact that Abraham tithed in Genesis 14.
5. My point is – on this one time recorded event Abraham did give a tithe. The Bible does not say what he did all the time. I could say, “Last Sunday Frank Page, put his tithe in the offering plate at church.” Does that mean he never tithed in his life except last Sunday? No. What it would prove is that he definitely tithed that particular Sunday.
6. Yes it was. At that point this plunder was completely in the hands and at the discretion of Abraham. Kind of like the plunder God gives us. We can tithe it, and we can give the rest away as Abraham did in this instance. Or you can use the 90% for other things. It’s up to you and the Lord. That’s why we refer to people being stewards or managers of the money God places at their disposal.
7. Covered in my reply to #6.
8. There are a lot of Bible verses not quoted elsewhere in the Bible. But “all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable.” Really, the fact that it is quoted here in Genesis 14 does indeed endorse tithing. The Old Testament was given as an example for us (1 Corinthians 10:11).
9. You say the key verse is Genesis 14:21. I say the key verse is Genesis 14:20. Also Hebrews 7:2. Hey, wait a minute, maybe this incident is quoted elsewhere in the Bible after all. (see # 8). I know, you say but it is not used to commend tithing. Well, I think it is. You seem to add a lot of qualifiers.
10. To me that is just a weak somewhat ridiculous argument. On the other hand, maybe that is what we sometimes do when we spend the 90% on many of the things of this world.
11. I think Abraham tithed on a weekly or twice monthly basis to his local Southern Baptist Church. And gave offerings over and above his tithe to Lottie Moon and Annie Armstrong. Just kidding. Yours is another argument from silence. Who knows the details of what Abraham did when he was not whipping pagan kings? The fact remains that Abraham tithed in Genesis 14 and Jacob promised to tithe in Genesis 28.
Also, for the record, I have not called anyone a legalist or antinomian — yet
. And I have seriously discussed the Scripture.
Dr. Kelly, I assume you are a very learned, dedicated Christian man. But I still believe in honoring God with tithes and offerings. May God richly bless you and give you a Happy New Year.
Sincerely,
David R. Brumbelow
Brumbelow: Reply to 103.
1. So your argument is from silence.
C: Since it is an argument from silence then we should object every time we hear somebody say that Abraham “freely gave,” “gave because he loved God” and similar remarks in every single pro-tithing tract, sermon, commentary or news article.
2. Does it matter where the money came from? Abraham still tithed it. …
You say it was not under the Old Covenant. Really that is part of my point.
C: It matters if you call it a true biblical tithe. 16 of 16 texts which describe tithes call it food from God’s holy land of Israel.
3. I have earned money from pagans and tithed it. And God blessed me for it.
C: No “tithe” from pagan sources would have been allowed in the Temple. Your “tithe” is not a biblical tithe; it is from a secular definition.
4. If that is true then Numbers 31 is not talking about the tithe. I never said it did. That has nothing to do with the fact that Abraham tithed in Genesis 14.
C: You ignore the point. Numbers 31 is clearly telling Hebrews how to “tithe” pagan spoils of war and it was only 1%. That proves that Abraham was obeying pagan Arab tradition rather than a law of Jehovah.
5. My point is – on this one time recorded event Abraham did give a tithe.
C: Abraham lived in a totally pagan land surrounded by pagan priest-kings. He probably tithed to the Pharaoh and the Philistine Abimelech also. That does not prove that his tithing was motivated by love for Jehovah.
6. Yes it was [his own personal property].
C: You know what I am talking about. Abraham was extremely wealthy and the Bible is completely silent about him ever tithing from his own property. Why? Biblical tithing was over 400 years away.
7. Covered in my reply to #6. Abraham gave everything back.
C: My point is that if we use Abraham as an example of tithing then why don’t we use him as an example of keeping nothing for ourselves?
8a. There are a lot of Bible verses not quoted elsewhere in the Bible.
C: What the Bible wants us to know about Abraham’s faith is definitely repeated elsewhere. Moses missed a golden opportunity by not mentioned Abraham’s tithe.
8b. But all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable.
C: This “catch-all” quote proves nothing without context. We profit by not committing the same sins as Abraham also but that does not condone those sins.
8c. Really, the fact that it is quoted here in Genesis 14 does indeed endorse tithing.
C: That is merely your own opinion. You have not replied to any of my arguments with texts which prove them wrong. Merely repeating it over and over proves nothing.
9a. You say the key verse is Genesis 14:21. I say the key verse is Genesis 14:20.
C: Of course you will say that. Widen your horizon and do the research I suggest on verse 21. It opens up vast new possibilities for understanding the text. This is narrative and the end of a narrative is usually the most important such as 14:21-25.
9b. Hebrews 7:2. I know, you say but it is not used to commend tithing. Well, I think it is.
C: Heb 7:2 is not a command for Christians to tithe. It is used to prove that Melchizedek was greater than Abraham. The next time you rescue your nephew from Muslim terrorists you have my permission to tithe the spoils of war you gather.
10. To me that is just a weak somewhat ridiculous argument.
C: It is satire. However is Abraham is our example in all things then it must be OK.
11. I think Abraham tithed on a weekly or twice monthly basis to his local Southern Baptist Church.
C: From the Southern Baptist Encyclopedia, tithing: “During all this time [when Baptists were resisting paying the tithe-tax to England] Baptists and other extra-legal sects paid little attention to voluntary tithing, doubtless because they were so much occupied with opposition to religious taxation [I.E. TITHING]. IN THE MIDDLE OF THE 18TH CENTURY ALL OTHER CONCERNS WERE ENGULFED IN A VAST AND SUCCESSFUL PERIOD OF REVIVAL, WHICH ADDED GREAT NUMBERS TO THE CHURCHES, BUT WHICH LAID MUCH GREATER EMPHASIS ON EVANGELICAL FERVOR THAN ON SYSTEMATIC BENEVOLENCE. Many church, in fact, were definitely opposed to what they considered a ‘hireling ministry,’ and paid their preachers (when they had them) nothing. Preachers who were supported at all usually received food or farm products such as tobacco, or, occasionally, whiskey, which could be exchanged for money. At least until the beginning of the nineteenth century, most Baptist ministers worked at secular jobs in addition to preaching. The attitude of John Courtney, for 40 years (1784-1824) pastor of the First Baptist Church of Richmond, Va., was CHARACTERISTIC of many other Baptist ministers of his day.”
David said: I still believe in honoring God with tithes and offerings. May God richly bless you and give you a Happy New Year.
Sincerely,
Russ: Your reply has strengthened my resolve because of your lack of texts. Hey, let’s go shoot some fireworks and get away from this for a while.
In Christ’s love
Russ Kelly
Bernie of FGN
There is a lot of good information to digest here, plus I have done some independant study of the scriptures and other resources that I have. At this point in time, I would have to say that ‘tithing’ is not a NT teaching/commandment, but is probably a NT principle or doctrine that can be derived from the NT texts.
Christians are clearly to take care of one another in whatever form or fashion that is necessary. We should give 100% of ourselves to Christ and that should be lived out in our daily lives as we minister to one another and share the gospel with everyone.
We are ambassadors for Christ 24/7, it never ends, we represent Him in all that we say and do. That means that how we use our time should be motivated by how it represents Christ. How we use our talents should be motivated by how it represents Christ. The same goes for our money, it needs to be motivated by how it represents Christ.
We are members of the Christian community as a whole, but belong to a smaller community that is our church. We should serve Christ and represent Him through our church, first to the community to which we belong, and move out from there as the Spirit leads. This means we live out our walk with the Lord through the ministries of the church where God has placed us which hopefully is under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, doing the work it has been called to do.
This is what my understanding is at this point in my faith walk. I pray that I will always be open to changing my understanding as I grow and my eyes are opened by the Holy Spirit with each new reading of the Scriptures. I don’t want to ever stop reading God’s Word and I don’t want to ever stop growing in knowledge of Him.
Blessings,
Trish
Dr. Kelly,
I trust the turn of your New Year was a happy occasion. Mine was.
I think, at least from my pitiful perspective, Dr. Kelly, one reason you may have found it difficult to find a faith community who overwhelmingly embraces you is your ‘take-no-prisoners’ approach to this particular subject.
As I read through the comment thread, rather your very aggressive insistence on challenging–no, wait…pounding is a better word–your point about tithing being unbiblical inevitably sparks contention, especially in a faith community where your position would be the tiny minority.
Suppose, Dr. Kelly, a believing Church member, while he/she couldn’t overturn your skilled arguments to the contrary, believed it was right for him/her to continue giving the way both he/she has been taught and according to what he/she makes out of the Bible–that is, to continue tithing anyway–could you leave it alone and bless him/her in it?
Oh, for the record, I worshiped God this past Lord’s Day with my tithe. It was right on time and it really felt good.
Not because I was either coughing up my Lord’s extraction nor less out of pressure from the faith community or the Pastor’s expectation. Rather, because God loves a cheerful, joy-filled giver. His name be praised.
Good evening, Dr. Kelly. With that, I am…
Peter
Lev 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD’s: it is holy unto the LORD.
Lev 27:31 And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.
Lev 27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passes under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
Lev 27:33 He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.
Lev 27:34 These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.
This is the first tithing text found in the Law.
(1) Tithes are only food from the holy land of Israel.
(2) Tithes are the tenth, not the firstfruits.
(3) Tithes are not necessarily the best; they are the tenth.
(4) Tithes can be turned into money because they are not money.
(5) Tithes are only for national Israel as part of the whole law.
(6) Tithes of food from Israel are holy to the Lord as part of the law.
Peter
You should listen to yourself.
‘take-no-prisoners’ approach ///very aggressive insistence///pounding///sparks contention
Instead of getting involved in a good old healthy Berean-style discussion of God’s Word, you keep on calling me names. Frankly this is the last time I will address you as long as that attitude persists.
I present my position with Bible texts and try to discuss what those Bible texts say to me. Then you attack me usually with no Bible texts at all.
My battle gear comes from the Word of God because it is spiritual warfare. If I used philosophical arguments and name-calling instead you would attack me even more for using that approach. No matter what I say you will find a way to disagree. I seriously doubt that you would last five minutes on a college debate team.
I am in god company.
(1) The Pharisees, scribes and Sadducees were offended when Jesus knew more than they did.
(2) The Catholics were offended when Martin Luther knew more.
(3) Baptists offended Lutherans and Presbyterians.
(4) Methodists offended Anglicans.
Somebody is always offended when a person stands up for what he/she thinks is right and strongly presents his/her argument. I do not apologize for being able to present my arguments.
Russ Kelly
Hi Trish, I agree with your comments. But I think we need to push deeper, no matter the friction it causes.
Should the poor have to tithe? Should they be promised a blessing in return if they do? Should the rich get-off with only a 10% tithe? Those are interesting questions that can cause a lot of friction.
Those who demand a tithe from the poor, I think, are ruining people’s faith, and teaching false doctrine. Those who teach that the rich can give 10% and feel as if they are doing God’s duty, then they are really being limited. The more I discuss it, the more I HATE the tithe teaching. I also LOVE the stewardship teaching.
Dr. Kelly hasn’t (yet?) shared his story of how the tithing doctrine wreaked destruction in his family. Maybe that is part of his motivation for being so upfront in this battle.
Like you, I also grew up Catholic, and graduated from a Baptist-related seminary. Keep up with the seminary. You will learn many things that contradict what you have been taught in church. That is why many in the church say that seminaries ruin people spiritually… because they encounter all the misinformation they have been taught by ignorant pastors (sure, there are also great pastors). When you encounter this stuff, don’t let it hurt you; just seek the truth, which leads to God (Jesus is the way, TRUTH, and the life).
Many of the Professors at seminary know the truth about tithing, but won’t say anything (unless pressed), for fear of losing their position, since so many in the church believe in it. They write-it-off as a harmless false doctrine, I think, or try to reform it by way of confusing it with “stewardship.” None of my classes have ever taught anything about tithing, and it is not in any of the three Systematic Theology textbooks I have. That shows how unimportant the topic is, unless you are a pastor thinking of starting a building fund (or raising money for any other project they are in love with), then it suddenly becomes very important!
…Bernie
PS: Dr. Kelly, you had a typo… you wrote:
“The esteemed Alfred Edersheim pointed out that even Jews could tithe food which had been produced outside of Israel.”
I know that instead of “could tithe food” you meant “could NOT tithe food.” Your point being that only crops and flocks raised in the Holy Land were eligible for tithing.
Wheweee. Peace, men, peace. Disagreements are understandable, but this is rather out of hand, regardless of the topic.
Bernard, I agree.
I think this horse has been ridden hard. It’s time to shoot it. Let’s close the comments and move on to something else.
Geoff
If you close this thread you will be deprving quite a few people an opportunity to study this deep doctrine. We have barely scratched the surface.
It would be easier if you would delete the messages that have name-calling.
Russ
Russ,
Obviously I haven’t actually closed the thread … just sent a message. It just seems to me that there is much more sniping than study going on as the thread ages.
It seems that there are, for the most part, those who see value in the concept and teaching of the tithe, and those who see error and harm in it.
If both sides can continue the conversation absent the ad hominems, then by all means, let it continue.
I just want to bring the tone of the engagement here back in line with our purpose and standards. We want to have these conversations, but we want to keep them from devolving into the engagements that so often litter the landscape of the Baptist blogosphere.
I trust that you understand and agree.
And, BTW, I have appreciated your visits, comments, and input. I hope that you will engage in our future conversations on other topics, as well.
Blessings,
Geoff
Geoff,
I started not to send this and then noticed you cracked open the door again. Thanks for your patience.
Dr. Kelly,
If I remember right, you said Moses did not use the example of Abraham tithing. Yes he did. Moses is the inspired author of Genesis as well as the rest of the Pentateuch or first five books of the Old Testament. I even believe I have Jesus’ word on it (John 5:45-47; etc.), as well as His word on tithing in Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42. There are many other Scriptures as well as other evidence showing the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch. You will find that most, if not all, conservative scholars agree that Moses is the author of Genesis. So contrary to your opinion, Moses did use Abraham and Jacob as examples of tithing.
One other note – I did not say Baptists have always been against tithing. You misunderstood my comment.
You keep saying those of us who believe in giving tithes and offerings have no Scriptures. But we have mentioned many Scriptures. You disagree, add qualifiers, and attempt to explain them away – then you say we have no Scripture to back up our views. That, my friend, is downright disingenuous. We do have Scriptures for our position, you just reject them.
I find it fascinating that your last answer (#134) to Peter (#132) beautifully confirmed what Peter had just said.
Now, I will just stand on what I have already written on tithing. And on what SelahV, Peter, Rob, Kevin, and others have written in support of the tithe.
My point has not been so much to convert you, Dr. Kelly, to my position on tithing, just to let others out there know that yours is certainly not the only, or the majority Scriptural belief on this matter.
For those who want to know more about tithing, you might want to check out Criswell’s Guidebook for Pastors, Broadman; his sermons at http://www.wacriswell.com, Adrian Rogers at http://www.lwf.org, Money Talks, by O. S. Hawkins. I am no where close to being wealthy and I don’t give nearly what I should. But God has blessed and provided for me as I have given Him tithes and offerings. Some of the sweetest testimonies you will ever hear are about tithing. Do what Malachi 3 says and you can find out for yourself.
As we have demonstrated – this debate could go on forever. I believe, however, there is a time and a place to debate and a time to sit down and shut up. For the moment, I shall do the latter.
Dr. Kelly, do ease up on some of your brothers and sisters in Christ who sincerely believe in giving tithes and offerings. It could be that they love God and the Bible as much as you do. I do, however, think you are a remarkable man. May God bless you and your family.
Sincerely,
David R. Brumbelow
January 2, AD 2008
Pleae let me add one word to my statement about Abraham to clarify a statement I thought was clear. “(8) Abraham’s tithe is not quoted anywhere [ELSE] in the Bible to endorse tithing.” I am very much a conservative who believes that Moses wrote the Pentateuch.
Let us look at money in the Pentateuch. If you have an explanation. please let me know. It is incredible to me that, while money was an essential everyday item, it was never included in any of the 16 texts which describe teh contexnts of tithes.
One argument to support non-food tithing is that money was not universally available and barter from food must have been used for most transactions. This argument is not biblical. Genesis alone contains “money” in 32 texts and the word occurs 44 times before the tithe is first mentioned in Leviticus 27. The word shekel also appears often from Genesis to Deuteronomy.
In fact many centuries before Israel entered Canaan and began tithing food from God’s Holy Land money was an essential everyday item. For example money in the form of silver shekels paid for slaves (Gen 17:12+); land (Gen 23:9+); freedom (Ex 23:11); court fines (Ex 21 all; 22 all); sanctuary dues (Ex 30:12+); vows (Lev 27:3-7); poll taxes (Num 3:47+), alcoholic drinks (Deu 14:26) and marriage dowries (Deu 22:29).
According to Genesis 47:15-17 food was used for barter only after money had been spent. Banking and usury laws exist in God’s Word in Leviticus even before tithing. Therefore the argument that money was not prevalent enough for everyday use is false. Yet the tithe contents never include money from non-food products and trades.
Bernie from FGN,
You keep making me think, that’s not always a good thing, but sometimes it’s necessary, I suppose. I do have personal experience with pressure to tithe when the means were not there to do so. At the time, I remember feeling very hurt and it pushed me away from church for a long time. Also at the time, I would have said I was a Christian, I know better now.
I was a single parent and lived paycheck to paycheck, giving to the church what I could and when I could. I was even asked to be a trustee, that probably started the downward trend for me at the church. I don’t think anyone knew how much I struggled financially, nor do I think they cared to know.
At the first and only meeting I attended we discussed plans to put in a sprinkler system for the lawn and the money it would take to make it happen. The comment made by a person on the committed that struck a raw nerve had to do with people sitting around waiting to give money to the church and we should just have them sponser a sprinkler head, after all they only cost @ $60, no big deal right. $65 was a lot of money for me at that time and to hear someone have an attitude that it was sitting in someones pocket just waiting for a reason to give it to the church didn’t go over real well with me.
Then there was the time when the pastor preached on tithing from the pulpit and said that people need to be giving more than $5 and $10 a week because that just wasn’t going to cut it. Well, most times that was all I could give and it was a sacrifice to do so. Then came the letter that said tithing to the church was right up there in importance with paying my electric bill. They hadn’t lost me yet, but they were about to.
When they had their annual “Lord’s Acre” auction, the pastor’s wife donated a Dooney-Bourke purse which probably cost $100-150! Here I was living paycheck to paycheck, sometimes wondering how I would pay the electric bill, the pastor could afford for his wife to buy and donate an expensive purse and he was going to pressure me for more money.
This gave me a bad taste for a number of things: church, tithing and Christians. When God did get me turned around, drawing me to Him a number of years later, I struggled with giving to the church for a long time. I did not tithe and don’t look at what I do today as ‘tithing.’ Instead, I give to the church and I give according to my heart, it might be above 10% at this point, I don’t know and don’t care to know.
I will continue to search the Scriptures and continue to ask the Holy Spirit to open my eyes to the truth. If people want to call what they give to the church a tithe, then let them call it a tithe, I can’t.
Should the poor be pressured into giving as a tithe and at the level of a tithe? I would say that no one should be pressured into doing anything they can’t do as an act of love towards God. Everything we do and say must give honor and glory to God, and giving out of guilt and coercion is not glorifying to God, in my opinion. Without faith it is impossible to please God and if you aren’t giving in faith, you are not pleasing God no matter how much or how little you are giving.
Thanks Geoff for keeping this open. I do find this to be a very helpful discussion. I have wondered about this subject often and have wanted to go deeper with my study of it but hadn’t had the time. This helped me greatly to learn more and be more comfortable with what I believe at this time.
God Bless,
Trish
Trish- I just read your story. You probably think it was just your problem. You are just one sample,,, there are thousands maybe millions like yourselves. There are many calloused (or clueless) people in ministry with no heart for the poor, as you were as a struggling single mom (certainly there are also countless good people in ministry too). It is very common. In my ministry, I hear from a lot of people who think of church as “been there, done that.” That’s why I get so upset at the status quo, and the false teaching that is destroying people’s faith. Preachers don’t think there’s any harm to their false teaching because they still have people in church, not thinking about all the ones who have left their church.
I used to think that tithing was such a big controversial subject. Then I ran into another, bigger one– women in ministry, and I’m now a full bore egalitarian. Then I found an even more controversial and important topic: the evolution/creation controversy. How can the church reach out to intellectuals (those educated in science) when they themselves are scientifically uneducated (by and large, with few exceptions)?
I hope you stay with your seminary training.. and pay no mind to anyone who wants to limit you because you are a female. A lot of times people ask what you want to do with your degree… the best answer is to just tell them that you want training and then you’ll see. You never know where the Lord will lead you. Pastor is only one possibility… there are also so many other needs (ministry leaders, mission, etc.).
I don’t like to sound harsh, but I think the church at large needs a serious wake-up call. Just my opinion.
Bernie of FGN,
Thanks for the encouraging words about sticking with my education. But, a future as a pastor does not exist for me because I do not believe that Scripture supports such a position for me in the church. However, I absolutely believe there are plenty of ministry opportunities for me in the church as a woman and God will provide a place for me when the time comes.
Thanks and God Bless,
Trish
(gotta go watch some basketball – Go Mavs!)
Here is a thread that keeps on giving!
To Dr. Kelly and Bernie. I have seen with my own eyes the abuse of those who teach a false/abusive tithing teaching.
I was in Tulsa Oklahoma filling up on gasoline. Next to my car was a nice, nice Big SUV with a doubly nice cruiser/boat attached to it. The car with the rig I would imagine was probably around 150,000 to 200,000. The guy filling up the car was no slouch either – polo shirt (emblem prominently displayed), custom slacks, nice shoes – he just smelled rich (I was downwind). Pulling up behind him was old Ford custom van, not a day younger than 20 years old. Out pops out a family of six. I noted that they seemed to know the fellow with the rig – and in fact they referred to him as “Pastor.” The proceeded to tell him (apologetically) that they would not be at church the next Sunday because they would be going “out of town.” The man said (I am not kidding here) “Well, make sure you bring your tithes by the church before you go.” There was almost a television crew with breaking news that night with the headline “Baptist pastor kills Mega-church pastor at gas station – more at 10:00.”
Suffice it to say, I do not support the teaching that I have just illustrated with the above story. I do object to “guilt by association” that you are painting here. I specifically hold that Malachi 3 and the “tithe” (since cattle and produce was the primary currency used in ancient Israel and for that matter most agrarian societies) can be utilized as a ruler, a standard for believers to consider in their giving. No more – no less. I know I have been blessed when I give to the Lord both my tithes and offerings. I do so not out of coercion, but out of love – as I instruct my people to do the same.
Rob
Hi Rob-
I don’t understand how a tithe of 10% can be a standard for the poor when the poor in the OT RECEIVED a portion of the tithe. It is backwards in “Christian tithe” teaching, is it not? Should we not help the poor by helping them to stand on their own feet, rather than demand money from them and make them feel guilty?
And I think it is a grievous error to promise them blessing if they tithe, as in the give-to-get teaching. That is a distortion of what Malachi said, because Malachi knew that the poor didn’t tithe, but RECEIVED a portion of the tithe. Why take or expect anything from the poor?
In my ministry, I once ran across a single mom who felt guilty for not having money to tithe. Yet, she spent a lot of time ministering to other ladies, and teenagers in trouble. I explained to her how her time and ministry was even more pleasing to God than money she could give. How sad when people are so blinded by money and can’t even see the impact of direct ministry. I suppose tithe teachers would be happier if she gave up all her ministry, and instead with that time worked another job so she could send money to the church for her tithe. What does the church really want out of people…??? Money, or training them to be servants of God?
If the poor want to give a freewill offering, as the widow’s mite story, that is a beautiful thing; but I think it is a really sick thing that they should feel guilty for not being able to afford to tithe.
I have a Pastor friend who ministers in Africa. Africa is rife in the prosperity teaching… give-to-get stuff that is all over Christian TV. It is really sad how Christianity is being hijacked by these ideas… and causing the damage that it is. They have pastors in Africa, among the poor, learning how to steal from the poor in the name of Christ. They also learn how to shut-off their conscience, as they drive a nice car, etc., promising the same to their poor members who want to believe in the prosperity gospel. I know that the prosperity gospel is quite different than tithe teaching, yet there is also a heavy link… all the prosperity gospels are heavy tithe teachers. The guilt trip is a very effective way to get money from people who want to serve God.
If I was a Pastor, I’d probably have more sympathy, knowing that my salary won’t get paid unless the people give. I work at a full-time job and do all my ministry on the side, so I never had to experience that. But I think this would be my plan:
1. Be upfront with all costs, even the Pastor’s salary.
2. Explain stewardship principles, and tell them to pray about where to spend their money.
3. Ask them for support, and if they don’t feel led to donate, ask why. Maybe I’m doing the wrong programs.
I’ve been to a lot of churches, and I’ve never seen them do these three things. They do share some budget info, but not the exact info, such as salaries. Yes, I think if you want donations, you should be transparent with donors. And I would never tell donors to give money to the church blindly and let the church determine where it goes; I think that robs them of the true joy of knowing where it goes. I don’t think the church should support missionaries, but individuals should. This would also increase the fellowship as the church members get to know the missionaries better (through newsletters, etc). The church does things like I mention, robs the joy of giving, then piles on a guilt complex, then tells them to give joyfully. It is like the old joke, “the beatings will continue until morale improves.”
As far as beating-up that rich Pastor, I was shocked to hear just how brash they are. Creflo Dollar, being investigated by Sen. Grassley, actually claims to be persecuted for his faith (his faith is the prosperity gospel). Man, how can you counter that. America has religious freedom, and someone has a religion of Christian greed. This is the mess we are in, with the televangelists on TBN leading the way, and in my judgment, the pastors at the local church to wimpy to speak out on it (after all, don’t want to offend a church member (donor) who may like someone like Pastor Hagee). (Pastor Hagee is someone I found out about and try to warn others of; he takes out over $1 million annually for personal gain from his church and TV ministries. You’d be shocked to hear how many people actually say “what’s wrong with that?”)
…Bernie
Bernie,
You speak often about “the poor.” But who holds the measuring rod? How do we define “poor?” What is the cut-off? How do we look at people and say, “Oh, you’re poor. You don’t get to experience the joy of giving toward Kingdom work through this church.”
I have traveled many places in this world and discovered that, by the world’s standards, we are all rich in North America. Just curious.
I would much rather teach good stewardship to our people and encourage them to give as they can. For far too often it is the “poor” who are captivated by the prosperity demons, and they wind up mailing in their money in the vain hope that God will mail them more.
And, BTW, I don’t hesitate to speak out against the prosperity pimps. I remind our people often of the false teaching of the TV crowd … and recommend that they get none of their teaching from the TV, if at all possible…
Honestly, I’ve never been in a Baptist church that wasn’t completely transparent regarding budget. Even my church today, though we only have one “business meeting” a year, is completely open and transparent about our receiving and our spending.
Rob – If I had been there I would have helped you whup up on that old boy.
Rob
Good post. Both Rod Rogers and John MacArthur point out that, if you are really going to teach tithing like OT farmers, then you would have to give 23% and not just 10%. So why don’t churches teach 23% tithes?
There are Four Different Tithes Described in the Bible.
The tithe teaching ignores all other tithes and focuses on only the first tithe.
The first tithe, called the “Levitical tithe,” had two parts. Again, the whole first tithe was given to the Levites who were only servants to the priests (Numb. 18:21-24; Neh. 10:37). The Levites, in turn, gave one tenth of the whole tithe to the priests (Numb. 18:25-28; Neh. 10:38).
According to Deuteronomy 12 and 14, the second religious tithe, called the “feast tithe,” was eaten by worshipers in the streets of Jerusalem during the three yearly festivals (Deut. 12:1-19; 14:22-26).
And, according to Deuteronomy 14 and 26, a third tithe, called the “poor tithe,” was kept in the homes every third year to feed the poor (Deut. 14:28, 29; 26:12, 13). Also, according to First Samuel 8:14-17, the ruler collected the first and best ten per cent for political use. During Jesus’ time Rome collected the first ten per cent (10%) of most food and twenty per cent (20%) of fruit crops as its spoils of war.
One wonders what “churches” are trying to hide when they single out the one religious tithe which best suits their purposes and ignore the other two important religious tithes.
Comments?
The “whole” tithe, the first tithe, did not go to the priests at all. According to Numbers 18:21-24 and Nehemiah 10:37b, it went to the servants of the priests, the Levites. According to Numbers 3 and 1st Chronicles 23 to 26 these servants who received the tithe were NOT the ministers. They were carpenters, sculptors, fabric weavers, builders, singers, musicians, bakers, guards, treasurers and politicians who worked for the king
Question: Why does the church not explain why these workers do not receive the first tithe today? Or should we ignore it and hope that nobody points it out?
Num 18:20 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel.
It is also important to know that, in exchange for receiving these tithes, both Levites and priests forfeited all rights to permanent land inheritance inside Israel
This condition for receiving the tithes is found (Numb. 18:20-26; Deut. 12:12; 14:27, 29; 18:1, 2; Josh. 13:14, 33; 14:3; 18:7; Ezek. 44:28).
Question: Why isn’t the part of tithing taught in churches today? Or should we ignore it also and hope that nobody mentions it?
Even if tithes were New Covenant they would first go to the (Levites) deacons to assist the preachers and maintain the buildings.
Geff and the group
In seven years of blogging this is the first time everybody just stopped.
I know that this was not a formal debate. Usually debates have opening statements, followed by a round where the opening statements are challenged, followed by a round of summary. This one never got past the first round. I wanted somebody to tell me why my arguemts are wrong instead of merely saying, “Well, I still believe.” This issue will not go away. Soon it will hopefully be discussed in every major denomination. I ceratinly pray and hope so.
It has been nice with the group. May God bless all of you. E-mail me with the next topics and I might join in. I have many more interests and two more books which are not about tithing.
In Christ’s love
Russ Kelly
What is your definition of “completely open and transparent?” Have you ever seen salaries listed? Every minister of a (nonchurch) 501c3 has to do that in their form 990 tax return, but churches don’t have to, so they don’t.
This is how I found out that Pastor John Hagee, TV preacher and pastor at Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, pulls out over $1 million annually for personal gain. Since then, he moved his TV operations into his church so he doesn’t have to publicly report it. So all you get now is his glossy year-end report where he can spin things any way he wants.
What is my definition of poor? Those living at the official poverty level, and those who have trouble paying their basic bills (food, medicine, insurance). Yes, I don’t have much sympathy for people who are “poor” because they bought a house and cars bigger than they can afford, bent toward luxury. I’m talking about people who are struggling to survive, and there are many of them. People in church should be very familiar with these people if they are interested in ministry… they are all around.
Meanwhile, people like me really are “rich” and can easily give 10% without any sacrifice… the “Christian tithe” is a false “minimum” to aspire to. It subracts from stewardship teaching, where everything is devoted to God.
I say “Christian tithe” because it is so different than the biblical understanding of the tithe, as Dr. Kelly points out. It is something that Christians invented, outside of the Bible.
…Bernie
Bernie,
Though Geoff is completely able to speak for himself, when you ask What is your definition of “completely open and transparent?” I can assure you he means just that, completely open and transparent.
Like you, I have a lot of trouble with prosperity teachings and their effects on the poorer Christians in our society. However, I do not think it is fair to telescope Cornerstone’s abuses onto the church at large and treat it as normative against particularly any SBC church. We are a Southern Baptist blog and Cornerstone Church is non-denominational.
I think every pastor on this board who is a contributor would affirm that their churches’ budgets are available to whomever would care to see them. Though I don’t see the necessity, I would have no problem publishing my salary for anyone to see, plus, money I receive according to IRS guidelines regarding travel, as well as benefits the church graciously affords me. All of this is reported in the annual church budget as well as quarterly treasurer’s reports.
This is typical of most SBC churches to follow these practices regarding salaries. So, by completely honest and transparent, that is what we mean.
Tony
My experience with Southern Baptist churches – Hagee’s is NOT one – is that full budgetary and expense information is available with no difficulty at all to members, and it’s pretty much freely available to the public. It’s almost a doctrinal belief!!! Like Tony says, let’s don’t broadbrush SBC churches with the practices of completely unaffiliated churches.
If you have no problem telling your salary to the congregation, then why not do it? Why not offer it up-front with the budget info? Have you ever seen a Pastor do that? I seriously doubt it. I never have. The Baptist church, and all other churches I attended, never did. Many members would like to know, but are too shy to ask. Some members won’t ask for fear of being rebuked. Many Pastors would rebuke when asked for such info. Members don’t want to ask, because they don’t want to look like trouble-makers. But here’s the deal- I think that donors have a right to know. It is very convenient to not publish the salary, then say if anyone asks for it, they’ll provide it. I think there is self-deception wrapped in that concept… just my opinion (self-deception means someone is deceived and doesn’t know it… so don’t get mad and call me a name-caller… any of us can be self-deceived since we wouldn’t know it). It looks like “playing games” to me… as if trying to appear to be transparent without really being transparent.
I know that the vast majority of Pastors don’t get paid much. I saw a website once of a database that could tell you the average salaries for Baptist pastors and church workers.. very reasonable.
My point is that non-church 501c3′s have to provide salary info to the public; but churches aren’t required, so they don’t (unless it is specifically requested by a church member and the Pastor feels like releasing the info). Churches should be more noble and transparent than the basic minimum of the law, but they are LESS transparent. That is why we have scandals, with televangelists hiding their money in “church” organizations (John Hagee, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, and a long list of others). More power to Sen. Grassley on exposing these abusers… all of which support the idea of “Christian tithing” full-tilt.
Since I rebuke so many church leaders about financial accountability, I try to be a role-model by publishing all my finances on the web… for anyone to see. As I do that, I notice the positive effect it has in keeping myself in-line… it is a very powerful tool to keep one honest. Anyone who leads an organization comes across plenty of opportunities to do a little “playing around,” but the more transparent it is, the less likely it is.
The funny thing about Pastor John Hagee… when he moved his operations under his church to better hide his financial abuse, he actually put out a public statement that it would result in BETTER financial integrity and stewardship!
…Bernie
Bernie,
I’m sorry, I miscommunicated. I meant, I don’t see the necessity here on this board. I apologize.
A simple response to your question, “Why don’t you?” I do. The church I serve has full access to any monies disbursed to me, whether salary, travel compensation, benefits, or annuity. My compensation is discussed once a year in front of all the church, albeit without me present, and I have had members freely discuss compensation with me. It doesn’t bother me nor them.
My compensation is published; not in the local paper, but in the church budget as well as the quarterly treasurer’s reports. Each of these are printed and made available to each church member.
I really think your first full paragraph is a projection of your own issues. And I will say again, you are telescoping this issue upon the vast majority of SB churches because your evidence is coming from prosperity teachers, not SB churches.
And, I’m not mad and have no intention of calling you names.
Bernie – It appears that the root of this tithing / anti-tithing debate, for you, lies in your frustration at the abuses of many well-known televangelists, am I right? If it weren’t for these guys abusing the money that they are given in “tithes”, would you be so determined to convince us that the use of the word is in itself evil? I think you are frustrated with those who sin in their management of ministry funds and have been driven by that frustration to condemn the very use of the word tithe, simply because THEY use it to prompt guilty Christians into giving to their ministries. Am I right?
Tithes were Often Used as Political Taxes.
In the Hebrew economy, the tithe was used in a totally different manner than it is preached today.
Once again, those Levites who received the whole tithe were not even ministers or priests — they were only servants to the priests!
Numbers chapter 3 describes the Levites as carpenters, metal workers, leather-craftsmen and artists who maintained the small sanctuary.
And, according to First Chronicles, chapters 23-26, during the time of King David and King Solomon the Levites were still skilled craftsmen who inspected and approved all work in the Temple: 24, 000 worked in the Temple as builders and supervisors; 6,000 were officials and judges; 4,000 were guards and 4,000 were musicians. As political representatives of the king, Levites used their tithe income to serve as officials, judges, tax collectors, treasurers, temple guards, musicians, bakers, singers and professional soldiers (1 Chron. 12:23, 26; 23:2-5; 26:29-32; 27:5). It is obvious why these examples of using biblical tithe-income are never used as examples in the church today.
HAVE YOU EVERY THOUGHT ABOUT THESE TEXTS?
1 Chron 26:29 Of the Izharites, Chenaniah and his sons were for the outward business over Israel, for officers and judges.
1 Chron 26:30 And of the Hebronites, Hashabiah and his brethren, men of valour, a thousand and seven hundred, were officers among them of Israel on this side Jordan westward in all the business of the LORD, and in the service of the king.
1 Chron 26:32 And his brethren, men of valour, were two thousand and seven hundred chief fathers, whom king David made rulers over the Reubenites, the Gadites, and the half tribe of Manasseh, for every matter pertaining to God, and affairs of the king.
It is also important to know that Old Covenant tithes were never used for evangelism of non-Israelites. Tithing failed! See Hebrews 7:12-19. Tithes never stimulated Old Covenant Levites or priests to establish a single mission outreach or encourage a single Gentile to become an Israelite (Ex. 23:32; 34:12, 15; Deut. 7:2). Old Covenant tithing was motivated and mandated by Law, not love. In fact, during most of Israel’s history the prophets were God’s primary spokesmen – and not the tithe-receiving Levites and priests.
Well then, I’m amazed. I’ve been to many types of churches, such as Bible churches, a Baptist church, Foursquare, Calvary Chapel, etc., and have never seen it done before (disclosing pastor salaries). Is it actually your salary, by itself, or all the salaries of the church personal in one line item (I have seen that). If you actually report your salary, then I’d say good for you and your church. Pastor Hagee would never do what he does (and get away with it) if there was that kind of accountability. In fact, I’m pretty sure we wouldn’t have any money scandals at all in the Christian church if that was the norm, rather than the exception.
Do you think the “vast majority of SBC churches” publish their Pastor’s salary for the congregation, without church members having to ask for it? That’s not my understanding, but I would be pleasantly surprised if I was wrong. I hope I’m wrong… but I don’t think so. You are saying that most SBC churches publish their pastors specific salary, from your experience?
Wrong. The sin lies in thinking that Christ teaches that everyone should tithe, poor or rich. I think the poor should not tithe. Freewill gift giving, yes; tithe, no. The rich should also give more than 10%, not looking at 10% as some kind of minimum and if they give more it is like extra credit. It isn’t extra credit. “Stewardship” per the parable of the talents, teaches it all belongs to God; 100% of our time, treasure, and talent, not just 10% of our income. This is why the church is weak and watered-down, I think.
Mixing “tithe” and “stewardship” is like mixing “grace” with “works.” Once you add “works” to get your salvation, you lost “grace” (grace by definition is unmerited favor). Once you talk of a “minimum” for giving, you lose stewardship. It also destroys the poor.
…just my thoughts.
…Bernie
Bernie of FGN,
I’ve only been in 2 Baptist churches, but both of them had a clear entry for the pastor’s salary and housing allowance. Yesterday, I got out the current budget to verify this and saw that it not only gave the senior pastor salary but also the other pastors, music minister,assistants, secretaries and accounting clerks. They didn’t hide anything.
Trish
Bernie: for the record, my husband pastored four churches in the SBC and all of them reported his entire income package including the Christmas bonus he received. They broke it down in housing allowance and car allowance, etc. Also, every church I’ve ever attended in the SBC did likewise with their ministers’ salary. So, I hope you can rest easier knowing not all churches and pastors are hiding things from their people. selahV
Bernie,
I am a single staff member though some other folks receive small stipends more so than actual salaries for things they do; custodian, lawn care, church clerk, etc.
Every dime that is disbursed is accounted for and made public to the congregation, either via the annual church budget, where everything is itemized, or the quarterly treasurer’s reports, also itemized. And just to be sure, all compensation I receive is made public; that includes salary, benefits (medical and dental for me and my family), travel compensation (48.5 cents per mile, the standard IRS rate for business/ministry purposes), and annuity.
And it is my experience that pastors of SB churches follow a similar practice. I have served on staff at two churches and have been a member of five, and at all those churches this practice was followed. Like Bernard said in an earlier comment (#153; wow, that is a lot of comments!), this is almost a “doctrine” in SB churches.
I feel certain this is the norm among SB churches and their staff. Maybe some other of our pastor-contributors or pastor-readership would care to confirm or deny! So, I hope you are pleasantly surprised. God bless for a great Lord’s Day tomorrow.
If every SBC church is doing it (reporting specific pastor salaries), then it must be in the rules for the denomination that it must be done? That is news to me. The Baptist church I attended was an independant one, I think (they didn’t talk much about it). I wonder if a Pastor reading this can enlighten me on the rules for SBC churches… required to disclose pastor salaries upfront?
If it is true that SBC’s must disclose pastor salaries, then is my conclusion correct… they have no money scandals (Jim Bakker, Kenneth Copeland, John Hagee style)? I think if full disclosure is mandated, it is extremely hard to have a money scandal… someone would have to be way extra devious and crooked to go to great lengths to hide it.
The good people need to speak-up more for reform, I think, supporting causes like Sen. Grassley. “All that is necessary for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing.” And we, Christians in America, have been doing nothing for way too long, and so the abusers flourish. Sen. Grassley is trying to make an attempt to stem the tide, but he needs popular support to carry-on with his “crusade” against scandalous Christian preachers. People like Creflo Dollar are essentially claiming that Christian greed is a part of their religion, and we should have religious tolerance in America.
In a way, this seems off-topic. However, tithing, like many issues, is involved in a web of other theological issues, such as “stewardship” and “legalism” and the actions of TBN televangelists.
…Bernie
Bernie,
There are no “rules” that govern local, autonomous churches.
I’m still not making the connection that you seem to attempt to draw between the prosperity TV “ministries” (I say that very tongue-in-cheek) and the local church.
Apples and oranges, my friend.
And none of those folks you keep mentioning are SBC pastors, and none of the “ministries” are associated with the SBC (as far as I know).
You will find no greater critics of the prosperity pimping than the people who frequent this blog, or the people who lead churches in the SBC.
Bernie, all churches in the SBC are autonomous. We are free to report as we each want to do it; that is why we have various times for business meetings etc. There are no “rules” governed by the convention.
As far as I know, Southern Baptist Churches all know they are accountable to their congregations. And each and every pastor knows this, and respects that transparency. Of course there may be some exceptions to the norm but that is how I’ve always known it to be.
And as far as this being off-topic, don’t worry about it. We are hopeful we can help you understand us better through this dialog. selahV
Geoff,
This is off topic, but I want to ask a question somewhat related to a comment you just made. Please indulge me for a moment.
Do you believe Kenneth Copeland is one of the prosperity ‘pimps?’
Ok, two questions, because if I leave it there and then come back with this next question, it wouldn’t be right.
Did you know that Kenneth Copeland and Mike Huckabee are good friends and that Mike Huckabee spent a week on Kenneth Copelands program in November doing a series on Biblical character and integrity? (Sorry, that was really 3 questions).
Forgive me SelahV, you know my heart on this one and I couldn’t pass up this opportunity.
Geoff, I have some posts on this over at my blog if you care to know more about my concerns. If you or anyone else is interested, we can dialog over there and let this go back to it’s originally scheduled discussion.
Thanks,
Trish
Trish, you naughty, naughty girl!
promoting your blog like that! 
No problem here, although I’m in a quandry over that issue. I’m still mulling it over. selahV
Tony is right on this one. I am also a small church pastor. My salary is part of the budget which is viewed and approved annually by church members. Also, at each monthly business meeting, a public accounting is provided for every penny received and spent.
This is the fourth SBC church I have pastored and this is the way it has been done in every church.
Les
Bernie,
Admittedly the idea of disclosure is not universal in every Southern Baptist Church, I would be comfortable in saying that in 98% of them, this would be the case.
In my ministry, my salary and it’s breakdown is printed in the church budget and approved each year. The tresurer’s report is published monthly, and approved quarterly that shows every dime that was spent, including my salary and benefits. My previous pastorate was the same. You will find no greater enemy of the prosperity pimps than me because they malign and obscure the true gospel and work of God.
Rob
And I might further add that there is a “partition” placed between myself and the money so that there is no “conflict of interest.” I have no access to the giving records, and further have no desire to know what they are in the fear that it will impead me in my ministry. I beleive you will find a great many SB Pastors do the same.
Selah – Did you ever in your wildest dreams think that your little post would garner 169 responses?
Rob
Rob, well shucks no. I’m just tickled pink that it peaked your interest enough to comment. So honored I am when I see your name under my posts.
And it’s been a great pleasure to help Bernie see that not all churches can be painted with the same brush. We all have flaws. But oh the day will come when the bride is completely ready to receive her Groom and that will be so splendid indeed. selahV
Bernie,
One more thought. I support your desire to expouse the huksters. However I would not be truthful if I said that I support the hand of goverment to clean up our act. Government tends to overeach, maiming both the just and the unjust. Many innocent will be swept away to gain the the upper hand on the guilty – who may because of their vast resources flee to better shores, leaving the victims to pick up the pieces. Churches and ministries that are open and good stewards may be swept up by this governmental crusade. What will you say then? Will it be worth that price?
Rob
Bernie,
Rob brings up two very important points.
One of the most heated arguments I ever got into with a fellow pastor was over disclosure of giving records. Unfortunately, he was a SB pastor, so Rob’s conjecture of 98% is probably closer to accurate than my assumption of “all”. I have no access to giving records, first simply because it ain’t none of my business, and secondly, it would harm my ministry to my folks.
Rob’s other point about government intervention in church affairs deserves fair attention. It seems awful strange to me that we are cheering Senator Grassley on in this affair. If the shoe were on the other foot and the church was calling for an investigation of the government on any level there would be an outcry of “separation of church and state”, I do believe. Perhaps I am wrong, but I’m not so sure.
Trish,
I don’t know enough about Copeland to even make a guess. perhaps some of the other readers know?
If he is in that camp, then Huckabee’s time spent with him would be bad for my pastor, but a non-factor for a presidential candidate.
Huckabee spoke at John Hagee’s church last week.
I don’t want to take this post off topic, but I want to acknowledge Dr. Kelly’s comment since I started things in this direction.
I knew about his visit to Hagee’s church but had heard he ditched the 11:00 service to appear on an NBC interview, that was in a newspaper article, but now I read he was there for both services, so maybe he only ditched part of the service and came back to give the sermon.
But I also read that he has done a good job of alienating the Catholic vote with this visit and that’s probably a sizable vote.
Hi all-
It sounds like there is consensus that most SBC Pastors publish their salary upfront. If so, that is great news, and certainly an exception to the general rule of churches. At most Christian churches, if a member asks to know the salary, they get a reluctant response, as if it is none of their business. God bless you for being transparent and a good role-model.
As for Huckabee, I like him a lot. I’ll probably vote for him. As for his appearance with the false prosperity teachers, I think he’d show up just about anywhere there is a crowd (Catholic church, Mormon church, Church of Scientology, whatever). He’s running for President and wants to be a populist… he’s not running for church office. The ones who hate him the most are the flaming atheists… they hate any mention of God or religion… and they are talking about it.
I don’t think that is a good idea. You shouldn’t let fear or lack of faith impede your ministry. I don’t think it is ever good to make an appeal to ignorance, unless it is ignorance of sin (such as not knowing what internet porn sites are doing because of never visiting them). One extreme is dwelling or focusing on the financial records, the other extreme is ignoring the details. I think a balanced approach would be better; knowing the details but not obsessing over them or doing sinful behavior based on them (such as showing favoritism based on giving). If you know a rich person isn’t giving, it would be good to know why. Also, you may want to know why a poor person is giving too much– they may be harming themselves in false guilt. That is pastoring the flock, by knowing them.
Can you give an example from USA history? That sounds like an unreasonable fear to me… very unreasonable and left-field.
The government is ALWAYS being investigated for something. Remember Clinton’s Whitewater & Lewinsky? The church has no reason to call for an investigation because political enemies of each other are on top of the game and constantly harassing each other, keeping each other in check to some extent. Watergate.
Sen. Grassley really needs to be encouraged to engage in reform. There is no downside. There are many abuses. The IRS has a law that nonprofits must pay “reasonable” wages but never defined “reasonable.” Therefore, people like Pastor John Hagee can pull-out over 1 million for personal gain annually and claim everything they do is perfectly legal. And now, when people are on to him, he rolls his TV operations into his church so he can further hide it, no longer required to publicly disclose it.
Just my opinions… I could be wrong.
…Bernie
Bernie,
Just a couple of points…
You said in regards to my refusal to look at giving records:
I don’t think that is a good idea. You shouldn’t let fear or lack of faith impede your ministry.
This is not out of fear or a lack of faith. It is out of genuine respect for the folks whom I serve. There are some things in people’s lives that need to remain private. I preach on giving–teach on giving–and I allow the Holy Spirit to convict and do His work. The folks I serve do not need the added impetus of my viewing of their giving records so that they will give the way they ought, whether “rich” or “poor”. I understand you may disagree here and we may just have to leave that point at that.
Second, your willingness to allow gov’t intervention in church affairs (even in legitimate abuses) is disconcerting. I will ask only a simple question of this, where do you see a Scriptural precedent for the gov’t regulating anything the church does?
Tithing Did Not Become a Law in the Church Until AD 777.
The earliest Christian assemblies patterned themselves after the Jewish synagogues which were led by rabbis who, like Paul, refused to gain a profit from preaching and teaching God’s Word. There are many books on Jewish social life which explain this in great detail.
From Christ’s death until Christianity became a legally recognized religion almost 300 years later, the majority of great church leaders took self-imposed vows of poverty. This is historically documented! They took Jesus’ words to the rich young ruler in Luke 18:22 literally “sell all that you have, give it to the poor, and follow me.” Most church historians agree that these early church leaders for at least the first 200 years worked for a living and were self-supporting. A Christian leader could not tell a Roman census-taker that he was a full-time preacher of an “outlaw” religion.
Clement of Rome (c95), Justin Martyr (c150), Irenaeus (c150-200) and Tertullian (c150-220) all opposed tithing as a strictly Jewish tradition. The Didache (c150-200) condemns traveling apostles who stay longer than three days and ask for money. And travelers who decided to remain with them were required to learn a trade. These early opponents of tithing are not quoted by tithe-teachers.
Cyprian (200-258) tried unsuccessfully to impose tithing in Carthage, North Africa around A. D. 250. However at his conversion Cyprian gave away great personal wealth to the poor and lived under a vow of poverty. His idea of tithing included equal re-distribution to the poor. And –we must remember— his ideas of tithing were not adopted.
When tithe-teachers quote Ambrose, Chrysostom and Augustine as so-called “church fathers” they conveniently leave out the first 200 years of church history. Even after Christianity became legal in the fourth century many of the greatest spiritual leaders took vows of deep poverty and preferred to live unmarried lives in monasteries. If these tithe-teachers are quoted, then the church should also be told what kind of lives they usually led.
While disagreeing with their own theologians, most church historians write that tithing did not become an accepted doctrine in the church for over 700 years after the cross. According to the very best historians and encyclopedias, it took over 500 years before the local church Council of Macon in France, in the year 585, tried unsuccessfully to enforce tithing on its members. It was not until the year 777 that Charlemagne legally allowed the church to collect tithes. That, my friend, is the history of tithing found in the Encyclopedia Britannica, Encyclopedia Americana and the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia for everybody to read. These historical facts ought to prove something to somebody.
Hi Tony. I quoted Rob as to saying he doesn’t look at financial giving of church members because of fear. You are a little different, you say:
“I have no access to giving records, first simply because it ain’t none of my business, and secondly, it would harm my ministry to my folks.”
I would ask, why is it not your business as Pastor? I gave reasons why it would be good to know if the rich weren’t giving, and to know why the poor are giving. Aren’t you interested in their spiritual well being, which includes financial giving and support to the local church? I think you have an obligation to know, just as they have an obligation to know your salary and keep you in check.
You say it would harm your ministry. Why? Because of some weakness you have? If it is a personal problem, shouldn’t you work on that, rather than avoid it?
Tony says:
“I will ask only a simple question of this, where do you see a Scriptural precedent for the gov’t regulating anything the church does?”
Why would you expect Scripture to teach or give examples on how to run a democratic governemnt??? They did not experience those kind of governments in the Bible, Old or New Testament.
Tony said:
“I preach on giving–teach on giving–and I allow the Holy Spirit to convict and do His work.”
I think that can be a justification for laziness. It is like saying we teach the Word, but don’t disciple anyone, because we leave it up to the Holy Spirit. My seminary professor for the preaching class used to talk about lazy preachers who didn’t plan a sermon and said they would just go up there and speak as the Spirit leads them… winging it.
I’m not saying you are lazy, but “leaving something up to the Holy Spirit” can be a easy excuse out. Instead, can we do things in the power of the Holy Spirit?
It seems to me that Pastors who are afraid of looking at financial records for members are like men who are afraid to hug boys or girls… it is an over-reaction because of other abusers. Maybe that’s why we have rampant greed in churches, and giving is so low?
…Bernie
Bernie,
Of course I am interested in the spiritual well-being of the folks I serve. Again, it is out of genuine respect that I do not peruse giving records. Some things need to remain private in people’s lives. If they want to freely talk about giving and open those records to me, then I would be willing to talk them through any situation.
The job of a pastor is not to micro-manage everything the members of the congregation whom he serves does, and in my opinion, what you suggest is micro-management. The job of a pastor is to equip the saints for ministry. Giving is indeed part of ministry and I believe giving is best modeled by the pastor, not by straining over giving records. If the pastor gives, the people whom he serves will also give. It is a general principle but one that from experience I have discovered works. Moreover, there must be room for the Holy Spirit to do His work, whether you think I am being lazy or not.
I could again, put this shoe on the other foot. Many church members are not going to approve of the pastor looking into their giving records and will say the pastor is nosy and over-bearing. Some would say that a pastor having access to the giving records are quenching the work of the Holy Spirit. Some people may then give simply because they know the pastor has access to the giving records and somehow think the pastor would think less of them because they don’t give and then anticipate some sort of divine recourse–very akin to the prosperity teachings you loathe.
Further–if the pastor has access to giving records, shouldn’t logically, by extension then, every church member have access to every other church member’s giving records? We should hold one another accountable, right? I don’t think that job should just be the pastor’s sole responsibility because every member is indeed a minister. I have a hard time believing what you propose would become a reality in the majority of SB churches; maybe other denominations but not SB.
You said, Why would you expect Scripture to teach or give examples on how to run a democratic governemnt??? They did not experience those kind of governments in the Bible, Old or New Testament. With all due respect, this is a dodge.
The principle of government (whether democratic or not) runs throughout Scripture and I asked that to illustrate a broader point; I am very hesitant to say Senator Grassley’s investigation is a good thing. The principle of separation requires that the government stay out of the business of the church.
Granted, any fiscal abuse within any church should be stopped. But isn’t it the responsibility of those parishioners who give their money to the church to do so? And don’t they usually do so? It seems a bit of a reach for the U.S. Senate to be involved in the private faith lives of individual Americans and their places of worship. I have also read articles that say Grassley’s investigation is motivated by personal, religious, and theological bias. That is problematic in and of itself.
Tony, let me ask you a question. Let’s say a church member comes to you and says “How much money am I supposed to give to the church?” What would you say (please, in five sentences or less, no sermons). Suppose all you know about this person is that he is a recent graduate from college, just got an engineering job at a hitech company, and is single. What is your answer?
After you give your answer, I’ll give mine, then we can debate which is more Biblical. I think we’ll get different answers, based on our different understanding of the role of tithing in doctrine.
As far as the Bible and how it applies to democratic systems, I see no link what-so-ever. In Bible times, most political systems were of dictatorship (whether headed by a King, Pharoh, etc)… so the rule was to obey the government or die as a law-breaker. The only general rule I see is “Obey the government and the laws of the land” (unless they contradict religious practice, as in Acts 5:29).
…Bernie
Bernie,
The picture that you draw of a pastor … individually discipling every single parishioner, micromanaging their finances and giving, and monitoring everyone’s giving records … would be “run out on a rail” in Baptist life. No other way to say it.
If you cannot understand how knowing the giving patterns of a church member can affect a pastor’s attitude and ministry, then I can’t explain it to you. I probably know more about the giving of some of my church people than I should. I know of some who make significantly more money than me, indulge in all sorts of material pleasures, and give significantly less than my humble family … and I cannot help but carry around a bit of bitterness about it.
Weakness? I guess. Human? most definitely.
That’s why we have people, other than our pastors, in SB life who have responsibility in the area of finances.
A pastor’s job is to disciple and equip the saints, not keep the books. And, yes, I suppose I’ll join the ranks of the lazy and rely heavily upon the Holy Spirit.
I find it a little bit ironic that the same guy who says tithing is unBiblical says that the pastor should monitor the giving of his church members. That mentality just baffles me. What would the pastor monitor for? If there’s not standard, what would he possibly compare “my” giving to?
But, to echo Geoff, that’s NOT a duty that SB churches would even ALLOW pastors to do. How much I give is between me and God. If ANYONE insists that it is their right to know how much I give, he and I will probably not fellowship together for very long.
(That’s what Cyle and I lovingly disagreed on earlier in this thread.)
Bernie,
In five sentences or less, and since you don’t want a sermon (Is that meant as an insult?), not that I have been preaching to you anyway, I am not going to allow you to pigeonhole me with a question in which you think you already know how I am going to answer. Its not a dodge or a deflection but simply an awareness of an improper rhetorical cheat. My point has not been to convince you of a particular position but to explain to you the way typical SB pastors do things at the churches they serve.
Further, I have not shared my philosophy of giving in this thread anyway.
And you still do not see the point about the separation of church and state here nor do I think you want to try because it disagrees with your ideas. Geoff and Bernard are correct; and I must echo Bernard’s sentiment–just how much good does it do for the kingdom of God for the pastor to know how much the individual members give? I think you stand to greatly offend more people than disciple, plus it is a level of oversight I am not willing to undertake.
Hello Everyone! Been enjoying your most wonderful civil discussion on all things related to tithing! It has truly been refreshing to see the disagreements between so many men handled without egos invading the space. Seriously.
Bernie, you are a spunky little fella, aren’t you? I’ll answer the question you posed to Tony: “Tony, let me ask you a question. Let’s say a church member comes to you and says “How much money am I supposed to give to the church?” What would you say?”
I left off the part about the sermon, even though I laughed when I read it. You are just joshing aren’t you? when you are, it helps to type in a colin : then a parenthesis ) and when you put them together, you get
a smiley face. Neat, huh?
If a man, no matter who he was, how old he is, what he was dressed in or if he were married or single, I would say: Our church believes in tithing because: (it will take more than 5 sentences here). Jesus told a rich young ruler to go and sell all he had and give it to the poor, then he could inherit the kingdom of God. (I’d tell why but that would take a few more sentences.) And Jesus singled out a woman bringing all she had and putting it in the offering plate as giving more than the rich and the pharisees. I suggest you get by yourself, and ask the Lord what you think you ought to give Him for the price He paid for you on Calvary. When you have your answer, you’ll realize that no matter how much you give it will never be enough. But God will direct your heart to do what He wants you to do. When he does, it is best you obey Him. selahV
P.S. I know, I know. I went over 5 sentences. But then again, I’m not Tony and I’m a woman. Go figure.
Plus, you’re a lot prettier than I am.
Rob said:
“Government tends to overeach, maiming both the just and the unjust. “
Bernie said:
“Can you give an example from USA history? That sounds like an unreasonable fear to me… very unreasonable and left-field.”
I can give you two contemporary prime examples that are now in the American lexicon that describe the overeach of government that claimed innocent lives: Ruby Ridge and Waco. Remember those places? Unless you say that those innocent children inside that compound, or that teenage boy of Randy Weaver who was shot in the back were complicit in any way by the crimes of their elders. Are these examples our of “left field” or do you feel that government was justified in turning a weapons violation charge(in Weaver’s case, just merely sawing off a shotgun for a undercover snitch)(which could have been settled by just picking up the perps when they went to town) into a dynamic forced entry with automatic weapons and tanks which placed innocent women and children at risk (and killed a few in the process).
These are just some of the grevious examples of government overeach. Do you wish for any more?
I do not use “fear” as a prohibition to ministry. The only one I fear is God. I do find it interesting that while you would condemn with severity the teaching of a 10% benchmark, you would have pastors know who gives or not. The only place that I saw this work was in the “Smithton outpouring” (remember that?) where the Pastor knew who was giving and knew who was not – told everybody what their level of giving should be – actually took the checkbooks of members out and wrote out the checks based upon their paystubs – his “tithe” was at least 50% not 10%. The pressure got so bad, that the Smithton postmaster embezzeled federal money orders to pay her bills so that she could keep in good graces with the Pastor – as the result she is still in federal lockup.
Rob
I prefer the word “cheeky.” It sounds cuter
When I said “no sermon,” it wasn’t to a specific person, but just knowing that when you ask a question like I asked it could invoke a sermon-response from a Pastor. I wanted it to be brief, instead.
I think the government did the best they could. It was a siege situation. What was the alternative– just let them go because they refuse to surrender??? It is easy to second-guess what they should have done after it all goes bad… like saying you should have bought Google stock if you knew where it would be today. I don’t think you or I could have managed the job any better than the professionals who did it.
The reason you can’t understand me being against tithing yet knowing about members giving is because you are projecting your tithing doctrine into my behavior. I don’t believe in tithing.
I do believe that how church members support their local church is a Pastor’s business.
To purposely be ignorant of that, I think, is misguided. Of course, if one believes in tithing, and inspects church records, of course they’ll be run out of town. That’s because the problem of tithing becomes obvious. You can teach it, but you are afraid to follow-up on it because you don’t really believe it. Your actions betray your beliefs. I think you should really ponder that. Just my thoughts.
I believe that churches should have a recommended giving amount per person (in dollars, not percent), as an average minimum. Those who are poor would not be asked to pay as much, or maybe not asked to pay at all. Those who are rich would be asked to pay more than the average minimum. If there is a special project, there would be a special fund for it. If the money isn’t raised, don’t do the project. The basic minimum I referred to is calculated to support the pastor salary, mortgage, and all basic expenses. If I know a rich person isn’t giving his bare minimum share, I’d ask why. If they are giving much more, I’d thank them. If the poor are giving, I’d make sure it is because they really want to, and make sure they have no false guilt they are feeding. I would also continually remind them of other giving opportunities with parachurch organizations… such as http://www.gfa.org and http://www.compassion.com .
…Bernie
I am at a point, Bernie, in saying that as a Pastor I am accountable to God alone for my actions. After much prayer on these issues, I manage the flock that God has given me in the light I have been given – and will allow you to do the same with yours.
As to the other, and not wanting to hijack the thread in another direction, I will have to call you naive, misguided, and uneducated. Having dealt with the Criminal Justice system, there are ways, and there are not ways to accomplish the task. Dynamic entry these days is becoming as common as traffic warrants with in some cases tragic results – and it started in these cases you seem to be unaware about the details. Shoving under the rug the death of innocent children when other non-violent means of arresting the guilty were available is criminal – and in the case of the Weavers cost the taxpayers 3.5 million dollars. Postmortem in each of these cases showed the government and it’s officials basically doing overreach – in the case of the Weavers, the FBI changed the rules of engagement that was later to be found blantantly unconstitutional. The FBI Director Freeh said this in his testimony before Congress:
“Ruby Ridge has become synonymous with tragedy, given the deaths there of a decorated Deputy United States Marshal, a young boy, and the boy’s mother. It has also become synonymous with the exaggerated application of federal law enforcement. Both conclusions seem justified.
At Ruby Ridge, the FBI did not perform at the level which the American people expect or deserve from the FBI. Indeed, for the FBI, Ruby Ridge was a series of terribly flawed law enforcement operations with tragic consequences.
We know today that law enforcement overreacted at Ruby Ridge. FBI officials promulgated rules of engagement that were reasonably subject to interpretation that would permit a violation of FBI policy and the Constitution — rules that could have caused even worse consequences than actually occurred. Rules of engagement that I will never allow the FBI to use again.
There was a trail of serious operational mistakes that went from the mountains of Northern Idaho to FBI Headquarters and back out to a federal courtroom in Boise, Idaho. Today, there are allegations that a coverup occurred — allegations that, if proven, shake the very foundation of integrity upon which the FBI is built.”
I would suggest a little dedication to the facts and the evidence before you support the use of government in the lives of innocent people. Because you want to support government’s hand to intervene when it suits you does not give you the right to ignore governmental excess because it would disrupt your template.
“It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong” – Voltaire
Rob
Selah said:
“I would say: Our church believes in tithing because: (it will take more than 5 sentences here). Jesus told a rich young ruler to go and sell all he had and give it to the poor, then he could inherit the kingdom of God.”
Hi Selah-
To take just your first point…
I’m totally against the idea of “Christian tithing,” but I also love that passage about the rich man and Jesus for what it teaches. Since you are pro-tithe, and I am against “Christian tithing,” how is it we can both agree that the passage is a good one? I think it is because it has NOTHING to do with tithing. Jesus didn’t say to give 10%, but 100%. And He didn’t say to give it to Him or to the church 9as tithe teachers do today), but to the poor. It teaches many points about stewardship, of which we’d likely agree… but it teaches NOTHING of tithing. Comments?
(BTW, I only use all caps becuase I’m trying to highlight a word… it is not shouting.)
…Bernie
Selah said:
“I would say: Our church believes in tithing because: (it will take more than 5 sentences here). Jesus told a rich young ruler to go and sell all he had and give it to the poor, then he could inherit the kingdom of God.”
SelahV
Honestly the above statement makes no sense whatsover if you are trying to prove tithing.
As a Church History nut I can assure you that the statement by Jesus to the rich young ruler inspired, not tithing, but monasticism for many centuies.
Rob Ayers said;on Jan 9, 2008 at 6:30 pm
I am at a point, Bernie, in saying that as a Pastor I am accountable to God alone for my actions.
Rob
In the same vein of Church History, the earliest church was monitored by “presidents” who were the “administrators” and not necessarily the pastor-teachers. The gifts were spread among the laity and the administrator kept order in the church.
Your statement shows little understanding of the church as the body of Christ. The pastor’s gifts are not greater than the gifts of the rest of the body. All are equally essential. I say this as one who was a pastor for many years.
Russ
Bernie: You are so cheeky!
You said, “I’m totally against the idea of “Christian tithing,” but I also love that passage about the rich man and Jesus for what it teaches. Since you are pro-tithe, and I am against “Christian tithing,” how is it we can both agree that the passage is a good one? I think it is because it has NOTHING to do with tithing.”
You are correct. It is teaching exactly what you say it teaches. 100% to the poor. I never said it taught tithing my dear brother. It’s part of my answer to the imaginary hypothetical man who comes to me and asks how much he should give to the church. That was your question, Bernie. don’t you remember?
As to the part about our church believing in tithing, I put it in parenthesis that it would take more than 5 sentences to explain that. If you and Dr. Kelly can take over 50 comments and explain why not to tithe, why can’t I take over 5 sentences on why to tithe?
The other parts of my answer to the hypothetical man were germane to your question. selahV
Dr. Kelly, Let me confess to something. I am not educated. I haven’t studied all the stuff you’ve studied. I haven’t read your book, nor meditated upon all the links you’ve so graciously given us to prove your points. But with the answer I gave to the question posed, I do not need to know all those things.
You told me: “Honestly the above statement makes no sense whatsover if you are trying to prove tithing.”
You are completely correct sir, but I never said I was trying to prove tithing. You and others on this thread have been batting that ball around for nearly 200 comments now. I was simply answering Bernie’s hypothetical question to Tony on what I’d tell a person if he came to me and asked what he should give the church.
Unfortunately, all you and my dear brother, Bernie want to deal with is how to dissect my answer to make it sound ignorant and without an intelligent response. And that is fine with me. Really. I am not trying to convince you of anything. And I readily admit my ignorance and lack of education. I only graduated from high school and I did that with night-courses after I’d dropped out of school to get married at age 17. I’m not intimidated by the fact that I’m not up to snuff with the many learned folks who frequent this blog.
And I am not trying to disprove what you are saying. I am simply answering the question as posed by Bernie.
Now. If you want to tell me I’m wrong for saying that the fella ought to go talk with the Lord and consider what he ought to give to the body of believers who are called to go and teach and disciple and baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, based on the Holy sacrifice Jesus made for him to enter heaven forever, then we would probably not have a clear answer anyway. Because the hypothetical man would have to surrender all and then he’d have to obey what the Lord told him to do. Not me. Not the church. Not you. But God Himself.
By the way, I may not have been dialoging here, but I’ve been reading all your comments. So I know you do not agree with tithing. I know you see it as unbiblical. And I know you know where the Bible says tithes should go. And I know you know the facts that I am just beginning to learn. What you don’t know is what God has told me. And you probably wouldn’t agree with Him either. So, what else can I say? selahV
Dr. Kelly,
Really, I am done. In my answer to Bernie, I in no way intimated that my gifts were greater than the rest of the body – if you ever read my D.Min dissertation, you would know how ignorant and uninformed that statement is in relation to me. What this post has denigrated to is yourself and Bernie taking the greatest of liberties with the limited statements made by other posters in a casual environment. This board was never intended to be a place where theologians or philosophers discuss the nuances of their treatises, but everyday believers discussing the ins and outs of their ministries with the tribulations and trials that go on in them. If we have to sit here and defend casual conversation with a couple of legalists who go nit and pick over every syllable, then it is not worth it. It is time for this thread to die. Write me an email if you want to for further enlightenment. I don’t promise to respond for very long.
Rob
Oh, come on, y’all, surely we can get SelahV up to 200 comments… Wouldn’t that be a record?
Seriously, nobody is gonna “win”. We’re just a bunch of Christians discussing. There’s no Theology Pulitzer Prize at stake here, and we need to leave it before we see some folks become full fledged enemies.
In Christ,
Bernard
Rob, I understand how you feel. And would encourage you by saying what one man or two says about you and your comments or education, do not a “truth” make.
I’d say that we’ve learned alot from folks outside the SBC in this little post of mine. Truly didn’t think such a gnarled entangled group of worms were inside the can Geoff predicted it to be. Honestly.
Whether this thread should die is entirely in the hands of Geoff and I’d bow to his management even if I disagreed with it. What would probably be better dead and buried is the snippets and snipes taken at any blogger on this thread. We are all God’s children, seeking to serve Him as best we understand His written Word, still small Voice and His Holy Spirit’s guidance.
Blessings and peace be within these lines. selahV
Bernard, you silly goose!
are you counting? that’s funny. The comments could have been far above the 200 mark a long time ago had I been concerned about numbers. I could easily have answered each and every comment personally. So, records only need to be set when there is something worth saying.
I’ve gotta go write out my tithe check. The Social Security deposited my husband’s check yesterday. Blessings and happy trails. I’m on my way to Texas for lunch with another blogger whom I will not name at the moment. selahV
You speak the truth Selah – thank you for your patience. I have had eneough sniping for one day – and life is too short and fragile to deal with the weaknesses of humanity while I am dealing with my own. But then again, I merely do what I am called to do – so I give God the glory for all the things He has done, which includes giving me your friendship.
Shalom,
Rob
Hi Selah-
Sorry for going on about something that we both agree with. I made a case against your statement because some tithe teachers actually do think it relates to tithing.
OK, let me look at each part:
We both agree that has nothing to do with tithing.
OK, we both probably agree that also has nothing to do about tithing… giving 10%.
I agree, but what does that have to do with tithing?
Please do, if need be. I just don’t think anyone wants a sermon, so I tried to head that off. I prefer short discussions… to the point.
I thought that was all I was doing… sharing my opinion.
I think the same… we are just talking. People in the church need to know how to get along and discuss tough issues.
That is just plain rude. By the way, I have a BSEET degree and a Masters in Ministry, so I shouldn’t be too uneducated.
I think the Waco and Ruby Ridge thing is more complicated, and you are over-simplifying. You gave some quotes. Can you provide the sources for those, so I can check-out the context? As I said, it is easy to second-guess what everyone did after a tragedy. I don’t think the FBI is some stupid, war-mongering outfit looking to kill innocent people. Sure, they probably made some mistakes; don’t we all? Maybe we should be glad we don’t have to make those life/death situations. I think the FBI is filled with decent, god-fearing people… and they probably also grieved over the loss of life… maybe even more so.
When it comes to the topic of tithing, I think it is very important to answer the question “what should I tell someone who asks how much to give?” I once talked to a Pastor about tithing. I think he saw my points. Then that was his question. He was so stuck on percentages and the old way of thinking, he couldn’t understand how “stewardship” comes into play. Selah, I agree with you 100 percent… it is a beautiful thing to get people to pray to God for guidance, so they can come to their own conviction. That also helps them to develop a closer relationship with God.
…Bernie
I’m Number 200! I’m number 200! 200 … as in, a good, old-fashioned, Jesus-loving tithe on 2,000!
Yaaayyyyy! Victory is ours! We have reached our goal! Now we are on our way to bigger and greater things! What next? Can we outgive God? Maybe, who knows… 400???? Moving Forward in 2008!!! Wheeeeee!! Play “Awesome God, worship leader, and let’s ROCK THE HOUSE!!!”
Sorry. Silliness disclaimer necessary.
Bernard
You all ought to be proud of yourselves.
(1)YOU are the ones who have done the vast overwhelming majority of name-calling.
(2) You do not know how to discuss God’s Word without name calling.
(3) These 200 posts have porduced almost ZERO rebuttals of anything I have said.
(4) Your main defense is to criticize and mock and brag about giving your tithe today.
(5)As a Southern Baptist for most of my life I am, ashamed of most of you.
(6) In the seven years since my book has come out I have been invovled in hundreds of discussions and YOURS is the absolute worse!!!
(7) Bernie was called naive and uneducated. He did not reply. Well, Bernie has a high-tech college education plus a Master’s degree from Luther Rice Seminary. Bernie produces high-tech products so sophisticalted that less than one in a million can hold a cnadle to him. Yet nobody else has come to his defense. Why? He does not agree with you so he is fair game.
(8) If you ever want to really study God’s Word then come on over to Tithing-Study Yahoo Group. We have alredy reached #2471 and you think reaching #200 is wonderful.
(9) I hate to say this but you will have to meet us again either at the judgment seat of Christ or in heaven. And I will not let you run forever from the false doctrine you discovered after centuries of opposing it. Sooner or later your leaders and your pastors are going to have to account to God at least for the way you treat those who want to enter sincere dialog.
(10) As for me, I am gone from this ridiculouis blog. Go back and read all that I have said and see how very little of it you tried to refute from God’s Word. Shame on you. You are in good company thouigh. Your leaders will not discuss it either.
A Bearan Who is Leaving to Wipe the Mud Off His Face
Russell Earl Kelly
Uh, okay. God bless you, sir, as you walk on in your Christian life. Uh, I hope you find receptive people somewhere. It’s obvious that you don’t enjoy discourse with those who disagree with you. Um, yes, have a great day.
I could say lots more but I know you’re not reading anyway, so, uh, thank you for your time and input. Good day.
Whee.
Bernie,
Let me remind you of our conversation about this topic:
Rob said:
“Government tends to overreach, maiming both the just and the unjust. “
Bernie said:
“Can you give an example from USA history? That sounds like an unreasonable fear to me… very unreasonable and left-field.”
I gave you two examples, and then you want to nit pick over them. It is irrelevant if mistakes were made, it is irrelevant if human beings are prone to those mistakes, and it is irrelevant if there are god-fearing FBI agents who are now twitching terribly about what went down. The point was made – government has made some awful, overreaching decisions that have cost innocents their livelihoods, freedoms, and their very lives. Point made. No one, not even the government, gets to weigh their good deeds and bad deeds hoping that the one will outweigh the other. With God it is a zero sum game. That is not too simplistic a statement – and for everybody who says that things are “too complex” I can usually point to people who do not wish to deal with the substantive issues such as innocent children being killed by the hands of government agents. There is nothing complex about their deaths, and there is nothing complex about how they got that way. What is complex is something that does not benefit your argument. When multiple bureaucratic agencies are involved, there are turf wars, multiple jurisdictions, and multiple demands. You may placate one agency, only to find out that you are now enslaved to another. They do not communicate except to holler when they are in trouble – and often times exaggerate their claims to speed a response. Witness the U.S. Marshall’s office (Randy Weaver case) claiming to the FBI that they had just fought an army of Neo-Nazi skinheads with a cache of weapons with whom they had a firefight of over 1000 rounds that killed a Deputy Marshal when all they had was a firefight of 19 rounds (12 shot by the Marshal) which cost a 14 year old and his dog their lives (the boy was shot in the back by the Marshal who himself was shot by the boy’s friend in self-defense – this determined by an Idaho jury) whose family of five and a friend lived in a dilapidated shack in the Idaho hill country. And it all happened because Weaver sawed off a shotgun for a government snitch. We usually do not give the death penalty for sawing off shotguns, do we?
Director Freeh’s testimony before the U.S. Senate concerning Ruby Ridge occurred on October 19, 1995 can be found at http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1995_hr/s951019f.htm or in the Congressional Archives.
Bernie, these stories illustrate the heavy handiness of government. You may not like this – and that is okay. That is why the benefit of government intervention must be weighed with the consequences of that intervention. Governments are made up of humans, who have biases and presuppositions and are lead by fears. How overreaching was it to send 500,000 Japanese Americans to internment camps during World War II? How far will Senator Grassley go with his bias? Will he merely stop with the hucksters? Or will he press on and demand from any religious group their information and put them in the sights of government intervention because he believes that any gift to religious causes is irrational? The saying of Bonhoeffer should be remembered as applicable – that the hand of government once activated will not stop with only those who are “not us”. As Lord Acton said, “absolute power corrupts absolutely.” Both his quote and Voltaire’s can be found in any introductory course text book of Philosophy. Look it up – it might be educational.
With respect, I am not the one who started off this conversation by saying that those who looked at the issue of tithing “and saw the light” would have more “common sense” and all others were more than likely “uneducated.” That was you. If you can’t take it, then don’t deal it. And for the record Russ I merely said in this one instance Ruby Ridge that Bernie lacked knowledge and education – not in all things. And for the record – nothing can come of putting up our pedigrees in a comparison of “who is more educated”. I made a mistake one time of placing my entire bona fides on a bulletin board to use as rebuttal. I immediately was convicted – this discussion has nothing to do with educational fidelity, but everything to do with Biblical fidelity. Suffice it to say Bernie if I were to do so, then I would probably beat you – albeit I have taught undergrads, graduate students and doctoral students in both public institutions as well as seminaries. Now I am a full time Pastor who teaches in community college on the side. I don’t even put up my entire educational journey on the church website – just the seminary degrees for the very reason I do not desire to “lord” it over anybody – because my education has taught me that I know nothing. That indeed I am stupid, miserable and poor before my Lord who knows it all.
I repent of my name calling with sack cloth and ashes. Dr. Kelly, in the Love of Christ you were not looking for a rebuttal, but merely affirmation which it seems you are sorely seeking but have not recieved- something I sense from your last message that causes you a lot of pain and rejection. My brother, I am sorry that I have caused you further pain – but I am not the reason for it. I did listen to you, but in the end did not agree you totally. God bless you in all of your endeavors for the Kingdom (that is if you are still listening – I hope you are).
Rob
Dr. Kelly,
Uh … what?
I’m the most even-keeled, mild-mannered chap that you will ever meet, but I’m a bit miffed.
No one has done any name-calling.
And perhaps no one has rebutted anything you have said (which is a lot, by the way) because they figure, “What’s the use?”
I cannot help but think that you must not venture into the blog world very often. If you think this conversation has been harsh or rude, then you definitely don’t get out much.
This isn’t a debating forum, nor is it a place to do a dissertation defense. It’s not a Bible knowledge “proving ground.” It’s a blog, pure and simple. Obviously, most of us have not studied the historical aspects of this topic with the same depth that you have. But, thank God, I don’t need a doctorate to hold a belief or conviction.
Even if I were inclined to agree with you, I would hesitate to verbalize such because of the way that (I feel) you have talked over and down to us less educated folk in the conversation. None of us like to be lectured.
And the 200 thing is just silliness … just for fun. It hasn’t happened before in our four short months of existence. Give me a huge break, please.
And you said, “I hate to say this but you will have to meet us again either at the judgment seat of Christ or in heaven. And I will not let you run forever from the false doctrine you discovered after centuries of opposing it.” Interesting. I can’t tell what, exactly, you’re saying there … but somehow I doubt that the Savior will be disciplining us for encouraging Christian folk to be faithful and sacrificial in their giving. And I sincerely doubt that Jesus will need your help to hold us accountable for our doctrine.
From my view you seem to be sort of a one-issue type of fellow. I urge you to take up some other issues and join in other conversations. Broaden your horizons. If not here, then elsewhere…
From my end, I harbor no bitterness or ill will. But I’m sorry that you do. But I sincerely do not think you, or others, have been mistreated here.
As for our blog, we sort of like it. Pardon us if we do not share your opinion.
Anyhow … hasn’t enough been said on this thread? Kill it … pleeze!!!
My assessment of Russ Kelly’s response in #202:
1. He may have gained some “knowledge,” but he certainly hasn’t grown much in humility and a desire to love those who disagree with him (1 Cor 8:1). His statement, “If you ever want to really study [split infinitive] God’s Word then come on over to the Tithing-Study Yahoo Group,” demonstrates sheer arrogance. The condescension found in statements such as, “As a Southern Baptist for most of my life I am [sic], ashamed of most of you,” “In the seven years since my book has come out I have been invovled [sic] in hundreds of discussions and YOURS is the absolute worse [sic]!!!,” and “this ridiculouis [sic] blog” is noteworthy.
2. He believes that he has God’s final answer on the issue and probably won’t have to learn anything when he faces Christ’s judgment seat or enters heaven. Could it be that even if he is correct in his biblical interpretation and practice regarding tithing, that he may have overlooked “the weightier provisions” of God’s teaching (cf. Matt 23:23-24)?
Humility is an essential element in studying Bible doctrine. Humility must clear the way for love to operate. Why? Robertson McQuilkin reminds us that revelation is only partial(Prov 25:2; Deut 29:29; John 16:22). We are also finite, and even if revelation were full we could not fully comprehend it (Isa 55:9). As such, every judgment we make is out of perspective because we are nearsighted, limited drastically in time, space, knowledge, experience, and mental ability (Understanding and Applying the Bible, 188-89). A. W. Tozer stated, “As long as we know that our view of truth is partial we can preserve that humbleness of mind appropriate to the circumstances; but let us once get the notion that our view is total and we become intellectually intolerant. Let us become convinced that ours is the only sensible view and our ability to learn dies instantly. . . A greater degree of unity [among Christians] might be realized if we all approached the truth with deeper humility. No one knows everything, not saint nor scholar nor reformer nor theologian.” We are also fallen – sin has skewed our understanding of the God’s revelation, so we are subject to error.
3. Somehow he believes that tithing is one of those huge issues that must be settled in order for people to be right with God. He seems to have built such a ministry on his belief on the issue, even when neither Jesus nor the NT writers chose to do so. Sound hermeneutics and biblical theology keeps doctrines in their proper biblical perspective. Jack MacGorman stated, “It is a trait of immaturity to magnify the minimal and to minimize the ‘magnimal.’” To me, his battle against tithing is way beyond its proper biblical perspective.
4. If his argument was so blatantly true and clear cut, then it seems that the Holy Spirit would convict us and bring us all to the same opinion (John 16:13). The vital and most essential teachings of scripture are stated numerous times in different passages and in various sorts of ways. The average and “uneducated” lay reader could not help but discern these teachings – even from a cursory reading of scripture. As it stands here, devout students of God’s word and people seeking to live a God-pleasing life see things differently. In such cases God is more interested in how we treat each other (unity) than coming to unanimity on every theological issue (Rom 14-15). On some issues it is more important to be loving than to be right. Most of the scholars Russ cites in his defense are themselves refusing to fight this battle in the way Russ has chosen.
5. He is not the only one who has refused to rebut certain arguments (cf. mine in #82 on the biblical evidence of the eternal validity of all of the OT laws when interpreted through the life and ministry of Christ). This challenge questions virtually his entire hermeneutic of wanting to dispense with God’s teaching in the OT on stewardship. ALL scripture remains inspired and profitable, for it demonstrates God’s holy and righteous character. How can we dispense with any of it? That is my “rebuttal” to his arguments.
6. If he is sensing “name calling” and “mud slinging” here on the blog without recognizing his own, then he has his feelings on his sleeve (1 Cor 13:5) and needs to learn to heal himself (Luke 4:23). I find the atmosphere here to be most cordial and discussions carried out in a most friendly manner. For some reason, on this issue, the air got pretty stuffy when certain person(s) entered the room.
Dr. Kelly: I’ve come to realize in my walk with the Lord that all knowledge we have today will be babbling when we come before the Lord of Hosts. Our faith, hope and love will be meet the tests of fire. Since today, all we are or have ever gained or accomplished is nothing apart from what the Lord bestows upon us, how much less it will appear when we see our Lord and Savior face to face. What I do with what I know must be done with humility, love, kindness, faith, gentleness, tolerance, goodness, patience, and joy.
With the greatest amount of respect I can offer you, Dr. Kelly. Your numbered comment above exhibited not one grape-seed of any of those fruit.
I am greatly sorry that you feel so belittled and harassed for your contribution to the Christian community on the subject of tithing. I am also sorry that our little celebration (over reaching what we contributors consider a milestone in our little insignificant blog) has produced such disdain and belittlement from you. I found it ironic that for what our dear Bernard and Geoff took license to rejoice over, you took opportunity to throw mud-pies with the obvious intent to humiliate and boast. Somehow, I cannot wrap my fair-and-balanced mind around that reaction from you. I can assure you my brothers’ rejoicing over 200 was pure elation and amazement. Whereas your boast of your own 2,000-plus comments falls short of any words I can muster.
Dr. Kelly, I am sincerely sorry that leaders in the SBC have so ignored your life’s work to the point you feel mud oozes from your face. I’m equally sorry that our alleged mistreatment or less than royal reception to your very astute knowledge on the subject of tithing has provoked such ire and disdain toward commenters on this blog and added further mud-pies in your face. I’m certain that it was not done with malice.
We’re just a group of bloggers who want to chat about stuff and see what the other bloggers think. But we, too, have some pretty heavy hitters in the ranks of educated, knowledgeable minds. I’m sorry they did not live up to your expectations of rebuttal to your position. Given your analysis of them, I suppose it was best that they didn’t offer more than they’ve already offered on your positions. I am not one of them as I told you before. I’m just a little old grandma who enjoys writing for the Lord. And for some reason our faithful leader, Geoff, found me worthy of casting my pearls on this collaborative site. I am honored to do so. Even though I find myself on another side of some of my brothers’ posts at times.
Gentlemen, and ladies. Thank you so much for your participation and restrained tolerance in the face of unkind words you may have received. Know that I stand behind Geoff in his assessment of our little baby blog of 4 months. I am amazed at the amount of folks who come here to read and dialog. I only wish more would grab a cup of java, glass of sweet tea, or bottle of reverse-osmosis water and share a bit of their thoughts with us as they read the banter we produce as the Lord allows.
For those who tithe, do so. For those who don’t and see no need or factual reason to tithe, go and reason with the Lord and give as you have prospered as you and your Lord sees fit. selahV
Geoff, after I get this posted, feel free to close down the comments. It’s taking way too long to load the post now anyway.
To All: May God’s grace be sufficient to meet your needs and abound. selahV
Rob- I have a question for you about the Waco tragedy. What percentage of fault do you assign to the government, and which to the religious leaders that were under siege? 50-50? 90-10? Please keep in mind that if David Koresh would have obeyed the law, as Scripture commands, then the whole tragedy would have been averted. The same for Ruby Ridge. Their resistance was the catalyst for the tragedy.
..Bernie
You know what Bernie – you are just muddying up the waters here. I would be happy to entertain a private e-mail on this. Let’s not hijack the thread away from the topic. My email is pastorob@cbbaptist.org
Rob
Hi Rob-
I prefer public e