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Of Faith and Beer
Posted by Bowden McElroy in Uncategorized
Geoff’s post from the other day (‘Show Me’ the Money … A New Day in Church Planting Funding?) prompted several comments (82 at this writing). There were a few off topic statements and tangential thoughts, but for the most part I enjoyed reading all the comments. One commenter asked a question that I thought was excellent (intended to be rhetorical, perhaps, but excellent nonetheless).
let me ask all of you…why in the world would a church advertise this way? and, why should mo baptists, or sb’s, or any other church be asked to support something like this?
With the understanding that like another Oklahoman, “all I know is what I read in the papers”, I would like to take a stab at responding to those questions.
I have a strong desire to reach the college-age people (20-somethings) in my community. Many have never attended church. Even those that were church members/attenders no longer come. Each year I see students from our youth group graduate and begin a process that leads to non-involvement in church. They don’t want to come to the Sunday school class I teach at our traditional SBC church. It’s not that they have been and have rejected it (or me); rather they have never attended. They will begin their first year out of high school by sporadically attending the worship service and then eventually stop attending all together. A few will move to one of the large SBC churches (First Broken Arrow, First Tulsa, or Evergreen Baptist); a few more will begin attending a non-SBC church; but most will simply stop going to church.
Conventional thinking (yes… pun intended) has been to simply wait: they will return to church after marriage and children. But as many are waiting longer to marry and even longer to become parents, this seems to be an ineffective strategy. By the time they become parents they have been out of church for so long it no longer has a place in their lives. The end result is we are losing an entire generation.
I’m on a college campus twice each week as an adjunct instructor. I find my students to be bright, inquisitive people interested in spiritual issues. They just don’t have a place in their lives for “organized religion”. Teaching psychology allows me to bring up ethical and philosophical questions with spiritual overtones that these kids are eager to discuss. Many times I found myself wishing we could continue the discussion on Sunday morning at 9:00 a.m. So far, that hasn’t happened.
For years the question has been how to get them to church.
Now, the question is how to get the church to them.
I could see approaching a bar owner about reserving a room one night a week for the purpose of creating an event where “people of all worldviews and spiritual beliefs (have) their ideas and philosophies both challenged and encouraged in a safe, open forum by people who are like-minded or may think differently”.
Were I to do this, I would not try to convince Christians to come to the bar for bible study. I be trying to attract the students and 20-somethings I see twice each week: the ones who are searching for what the church has to offer but will not and have not responded to invitations to attend church. Call it pre-evangelism or being missional or just meeting them on their turf; if I can’t get them into my church, then I will show them I think their questions are excellent and I care as much about hearing their thoughts as I do telling them mine.
How would I advertise this approach? The same way I advertise my counseling practice: the internet.
At this point I would have to make a decision. Does my church’s web site exist to inform members and other Christians? Or, does it exist as a portal for non-believers to discover something about who we are? If it is the former, I might not put anything on the church’s site; I would be tempted to set up a separate site with its own url and link from one to the other. Why risk the misinterpretation that I am enticing believers to drink? But if the web site is designed to attract and inform non-Christians then I would advertise whatever cute and clever slogan I could come up with to let them know I wanted to meet them where they live.
So… why might a church advertise this way? Because it wants to get the word out to beer drinking young adults who need Christ but won’t go to church that we care about who they are.
Should a church (or association or a denomination) be asked to support something like this? Absolutely.
I don’t know if this was the manner in which the Journey approached their ministry. And I don’t know that I will be doing the same thing any time soon. But I will be doing something to reach young adults. And whatever that something turns out to be, it won’t be within the walls of Southwood Baptist Church. It might be in a bar, a coffee shop, on a basketball court, or in a meeting room on a college campus.
So many of my students and their friends are lost – in every sense of the word – and doing what I’ve always done (inviting them to church) just isn’t working any more.
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If I’m going to a pub to engage the culture than my first and foremost goal is to express the basic tenants of the Gospel. If I go for two hours and the end result is that I fought the entire time for a political candidate, pro-life message, etc, then I’m not sure that was time well spent. Of course, one may make the case that could eventually lead to a Gospel presentation and I agree. However, I cannot miss the opportunity when it is given. There might be a person in the crowd who is never going to come back again and they’ll walk away thinking that Christians simply fight for social justice.
So if I’m going to make a “Journey,” then in a winsome and effervescent manner, I will share that without Christ man must make his own case before the scales of God’s justice. Will I receive flak from the crowd—sure, I’d be surprised otherwise. Might I not be invited back? That certainly is possible. Will God be honored through the faithful declaration of His Word? An unequivocal yes! So for those of you who attend these sessions at the pub’s, don’t acquiesce to the culture, you’re to be counter-cultural, hit it straight on! People don’t want to see that you’re like them; they want to see that you’re like Him.
What a glorious day when let’s say a year from now, someone comes up before church and says: “I just have to let you know that I was sitting in the bar when you came last year. In fact, I hurled some verbal jabs your way and really thought that you were weak minded and naïve. And then I saw how you graciously handled the insults, how you wouldn’t back down from your beliefs, and then God gripped me as to say ‘Listen to my servant.’ Well, suffice it to say, He saved me and when I saw you I just had to say, bless you for being faithful to our Savior.”
John in the STL
Let me start by saying that I pastor a church in a small town with a college campus of 5000 students a block from our church. On a good Sunday we might see 10 students in our church and everyone of them come from a church background. We have tried reaching the student population with cook-outs, cookie give aways on campus, and other ways, without much success. When I heard what the Journey was doing I had thought about doing something along the same lines. When I pitched the idea to our older/traditional church I was shot down for many reasons. One of which was me being in a bar.
I think the sooner we drop all of the high and mighty attitudes that pervade in the “Christians” the better off we will be.
On the whole MCB/Acts 29 issue I think it had as much or more to do with power and control over these plants as it did with the issue of alcohol.
Great thoughts, Bowden. Great thoughts. My heart also breaks for those 19-25 year olds whose “freedom” allows them the choice to neglect God entirely, as well as those who have never really known anything about Him at all.
Just “having church every Sunday” and complaining about no one showing up isn’t “going to all the world”.
I want my “concern” to grow more feet and get on the lines with guys like you, who are already doing something about this.
John,
I’ve found the 20-somethings I talk with are more than willing to hear me express the basic tenets of the gospel. What they are not willing to do is be the victim of a drive-by witnessing. I don’t mean any disrespect; that’s their perception, not mine. So a two hour dialog about social justice, beauty, truth, or whatever doesn’t mean much to them unless they know: a) I’ll be there the next week and the week after that, and b) I’m willing to listen respectfully to their ideas.
Granted, most often they would like me to affirm the equality of their ideas (“my beliefs are just as valid and ‘right’ as your ideas”) and that is something I’m not willing to do. This generation will grant expertise and authority to some individuals, but we have to earn it through relationship first.
That’s different from when I was in college (30 years ago).
Do you think we have inadvertantly created our own version of the Amish “wild run” years? That we’ve decided this “wild run” is unavoidable, and it’s better to let them get it out of their system, then decide if they want back in?
When opportunity/time allows I try to develop relationships and hopefully a solid friendship will result regardless of the width of the path they ultimately follow. But I won’t neglect a “drive-by” opportunity as you call it because a seed that is watered today…
It’s not an either/or it’s a both/and.
Chris and Bernard,
At this point, all I have is a plan that will begin next semester. I haven’t actually done anything, yet. I do have the backing of the leadership of my church.
The first step is to move my college Sun Sch class from 9a to 12:30p and from the church building to the college campus. I’ve talked to the BCM about co-sponsoring a bible study: that way we can get a meeting room in the Student Union.
The BCM director thinks he has about a dozen students who regularly attend weekday events but don’t go to church anywhere that might attend something on the college campus. We have another dozen kids who sporadically attend worship services at Southwood but have never come to Sun Sch. I hoping to build a core group of 15 to 20 students next semester.
The second step is to plan some fun stuff occasionally and ministry opportunities on a regular basis (this is a generation that wants to do, not just talk).
If it stops there and is nothing more than a cooperative venture between BCM and our church, then that’s fine. But I’m hoping that in about a year and a half it will be the genesis for a church plant.
I’ll keep you posted through Impact!
I think it’s a Romans 14 issue. Who am I to judge or villainize those whose consciences would be offended by going into a bar to share the gospel? And, if the majority of the MBC (or SBC) believe that is wrong, then they should vote that way and they shouldn’t be required to fund a ministry that is against their conscience. I think that through these conversations the issue of reaching 19-25 year olds has been inexorably linked with trying to have church in a bar. It’s become a wierd lightening rod issue that cheapens the whole issue and sidetracks reaching all people with the gospel. It’s crisis ministry, and it’s focused on a group of people who have always dropped out of organized religion to a greater or lesser degree. I graduated 27 years ago, back when the myth was that we stayed in church when we went to college. We didn’t. 95% of us dropped out.
I said I wasn’t going to comment anymore on the issue because I don’t think it’s needed. The horse is dead and needs no more beating, yet here I am beating it. I think it’s wrong to expect Baptists who have always been against the evils of alcohol to fund an outreach in a bar. I think that the fight to support this one church who has done this is counterproductive and has created a link between church planting and immoral compromise in the minds of many in the SBC. I don’t think this argument is changing minds and may even be harming the efforts of many of us to reach all people with innovative and culture-piercing methods.
John,
If you’re talking about dropping a seed as relationships are being pursued, then I think we’re on the same page.
It’s the formulaic proclamation followed by an invitation to church without any intent at forming relationships that this generation is rejecting out of hand. I recognize that is a generalization and there will always be the occasional exception. I think it’s today’s college students who have made it an either/or proposition.
At least that’s the way it is in my community; maybe the students in your community will still respond to more traditional, tried and true methods of evangelism and outreach.
Cyle,
I have no desire to be an apologist for the Journey. I do want to take a stab at answering the question “how could anyone possibly think this is God honoring”. The above scenario is one way of saying let’s all slow down and see the intent might be to honor God. I suppose we could debate all day on whether or not it would be a creative/innovative way of reaching others or a misguided one.
I do agree that college students dropped out of church 30 years ago just as they do today. I think the difference is our generation was much more likely to come back after marriage and children; the 20-somethings of today are much less likely to come back.
Too many times, I think, we are soothing our own conscience by performing a “drive by witness” or “leaving a tract” with the attitude of “I told them the gospel; it’s out of my hands now.” In other words, since we’ve supposedly fulfilled the Great Commission by offering the Romans Road in some fashion, if the person chooses to die and go to hell, it’s their fault and we’re not to blame.
In a certain part of the big picture, that thought may be correct, but it surely doesn’t show concern for the individual. It shows selfish conscience, more than anything. I believe that Bowden’s point is that modern twentyishers see right through that. They don’t want to be viewed as a potential convert, they want to be treated like a human being. They may be interested in God, but portraying Christianity as a big “people hungry power conversion machine” with “here’s your chance; the deal is for today only; want it?; I’m moving on to the next guy if not” machine gun “my way or the highway” mentality isn’t going to convince many of these “kids” that they need Christ.
And the first part of making disciples is to help non-disciples understand that they need Christ. Period. Thus, if we don’t pursue methods which work, we are wasting our time and not fulfilling the Great Commission at all, regardless of how many tracts we hand out or how many people we inform of their ultimate destination within our two hour weekly witnessing outreach.
Or do we just want all the twenty year olds to go to hell?
Bowden,
Great post. Thank you, my friend.
It is clear that being “invitational” is not working with this generation. It will require us being “incarnational” and relational to reach these guys.
I think what needs to happen in situations like that with the MBC/Journey incident is that we need to be willing to dialogue and gain understanding of these new/old methods of reaching people. If conversation had occurred about what Journey was doing, why and how and then concerns were shared with them about how this might be viewed and misunderstood by Missouri Baptists, then they might have reached a better agreement and unity on a course of action. But because the Journey speaks the language of lost millenials and not the language of Baptist Builders (talking generation, not construction volunteers), and because the MBC is exactly the reverse, we have a rift and a controversy.
Perhaps it would not have made any difference, I don’t know. But I do know the Journey needs to do what God calls them to do to reach the lost, regardless of whether or not MBC feels they can in good conscience fund such efforts.
I will praying for you as you and your church boldly reach out in the “language” of the lost.
Cyle,
One question and then it will be a couple of hours before I can come back and read your response.
I truly want to be innovative and culture-piercing (great phrase!) and honor Romans 14. But there is a struggle within me.
I understand alcohol being a stumbling block: I don’t drink for that reason and I would not do what the Journey did for that reason (I think I would choose a coffe shop, instead).
My struggle is where does it end? What about those who view dress and appearance as a stumbling block? Or those who insist church must be done in a building with the word “Baptist” on the sign? Or those who say I have to use Lifeway material for it to be a legitimate bible study? Or those who insist on Sunday and Wednesday services?
I’m perfectly willing to say alcohol is a legitimate issue for some of my brothers and I don’t want to cause them problems. But I know some pastors and church leaders who will not stop until all look like clones of them. Surely that is not what Paul had in mind. Or is it?
These are not rhetorical questions for me; I genuinely struggle with how to implement Romans 14 in my life.
bowden,
i was the one who asked the question,”let me ask all of you…why in the world would a church advertise this way? and, why should mo baptists, or sb’s, or any other church be asked to support something like this?”
but i think you might have missed the jest of what i was saying. here’s the point i was trying to make. i dont think that a church…any church…should advertise with a grab a brew and let’s study the bible ad. that’s not good under any circumstances, and the pastor of the journey church apparently feels the same way because he took it down as soon as he found out. now, to advertise that you are going to meet in a bar for a bible study, and you’d like to invite young people to come….fine and dandy. go for it. but, to advertise, or promote, drinking alcohol in any way is foolish and immature and reckless.
bowden, i’d be all for an outreach bible study in a bar, or in a casino, or in a barn, or anywhere else that someone thinks that they can win people to Christ. and, i’m one of those spooky, fundie, establishment bloggers, too. i’m also for contemporary worship services, cowboy churches, etc. but, when someone starts saying that they have to get “lit” in order to reach a certain crowd….that’s not good nor godly. if you’re telling people to come to the bar and have a shot of jack daniels while we study about God….good gracious, no! or, if someone said that they had to be a crossdresser in order to reach crossdressers….i wouldnt be for that either. tim and robin and wes and geoff….cant yall just see me in a cute, little sundress and bonnet with high heels, as i reach out to the crossdressers of san francisco? lol.
or, what if a church advertised that we were gonna meet in a strip club for a bible study, so bring your dollars for the lap dances? would that be ok?
bowden, maybe i’m going to the extreme here…but, drinking in a church fellowship, or advertising drinking alcohol in a bar to reach someone is extreme to me, and apparently to a lot of other sb’s. in fact, it’s wrong.
now, if you want to ride a harley and wear your hair in a pony tail and wear black leather, and have bible studies down at the biker bar….more power to ya, bro. i would pray that you could win those bikers to the Lord. i’d even get cb scott to go with ya.
david
I’m curious as to how the “bars” regard this. Wouldn’t this whole thing be kind of self policing once the bar owners find out that the Bible study leader isn’t buying alcohol and is, in fact, teaching things which oppose the consumption of alcohol? Wouldn’t he be fully in his rights to ask the Bible study leader to cease and desist this activity, since it could be detrimental to his business? Unless, of course, the participants buy more alcohol while at the Bible study than they would otherwise…
Bars are private property. Non-customers can’t just barge in and say “we’re having a Bible study in this corner, y’all leave us alone.” There has to be SOME arrangement with the ownership. I’m curious how that works.
Bowden,
I, too, have to work hard with the application of Romans 14. I guess that I deal with it locally. I don’t expect the SBC or state convention to sponsor everything we do or that I do. My grandfather was a Baptist preacher and would probably be upset with my serving as a hospice chaplain one day a week. He saw chaplaincy as a step down from preaching. It’s just a title to me, and it has opened the doors on hundreds of homes for me to share the love and gospel of Jesus Christ.
Back to the “deal with it locally” thing. We are a SBC church. We have local leadership. We live in a rural community in the south. If God convinces our leaders that an outreach Bible study at the Continential Club is where we need to go, we’ll do it. We also won’t ask the Louisiana Baptist Convention to sponsor it. Sometimes we work with the SBC, sometimes with the LBC, sometimes with our association, and always within the confines of what God is doing in our church and saying through our leadership.
I’ve spent 10 years being as transparent as I can muster here. I have godly men around me who lead our church. We have frank, often confrontive conversations weekly. That helps me apply Romans 14.
Bowden, been on both sides of the bar on this issue. I agree with Cyle as far as expecting folks whose commitment to abstinence and alcohol-free living be pooh-poohed because of a few new folks with (in my opinion) little chance of reaching the lost in that environment.
What comes to my mind in this is the evangelists of several years back who risked their ministries and reputations to enter into this stream of folk down on Bourbon Street in New Orleans. They were dynamic, dedicated Christians whose step into the dark side allowed wiggle room for satan to penetrate their lives and destroy their ministries, witness and lives. What risk do we run in setting the example for others to enter the realms of bars to “witness, discuss and be there each week”? It’s far more than a beverage in hand to reckon with in those places.
I have a grandson who is nearly 17. I posed this scenario to him without one shred of how I viewed it. Just in conversation yesterday as we watched Last One Standing on the Discovery channel while babysitting his younger sisters. I said, what do you think about it? He thought for a while—never quick to answer without thinking—then said, “It would be putting me in a compromising situation, I’d think. I don’t think that’s a good thing.”
This young man goes to every event our church has without prompting. He is a pre-engineering student and has memorized over 40 scripture passages since July that he can recite without stopping. On top of that he understands what they mean. Yet, he sees the risk and danger of the situation in this environment.
He and is younger brother have been responsible for others their age (with whom they motocross race–a rough environment in itself) being saved and by simply (of all things) inviting them to church.
One would have to be a Daniel-committed Christian to enter into this type of ministry and survive himself while he seeks to draw others out.
Most folks I know have enough trouble walking the walk without compromising their witness in heavy traffic and Wal-Mart check-out lanes. But what do I know? selahV
Cyle – You bring up a good point. If a stand-alone church like yours did exactly what the Journey did, could the MBC have ousted them??? Is a church plant not autonomous until it stops receiving funds? This gets a little confusing to me.
Brother Bowden,
I certainly do not want to get into the same type of back and forth that I did in Brother Geoff’s post Show Me the Money. However, I do have a question to ask. Help me understand the difference in what is proposed by a church like The Journey, and a church purchasing a couple kegs of beer on a Saturday afternoon and inviting college students and other 20 somethings to the church campus for an afternoon of volleyball and Bible Study?
Blessings,
Tim
“For years the question has been how to get them to church.
Now, the question is how to get the church to them.”
I think this hits the nail on the head! Blessings to you!
Tim,
I can see the difference in those activities easily. But if you can’t, then I can’t explain it to you.
The question is, “Do you want them back or not?” If you are not willing to at least tolerate mission activity like Bowden is talking about, my conclusion is that your answer is, “NO.” If you think that “No” is not your answer, then what is your plan?
The Missouri action on all the Acts29 program churches strikes me as another of the “if I can’t control it, I’m not going to have anything to do with it” actions. Since they “terminated their relationship” with all the churches and not just The Journey, it is pretty clear that alcohol was not the only issue. Humorously, this probably assures the churches of spiritual success. There is nothing like a little persecution to motivate you.
Bennett Willis
Tim,
The difference between what I described above and a church purchasing a couple of kegs of beer is this: in my scenario I’m hosting a discussion/dialog event at a place where others have already decided to gather. I’m bringing the church to them whether in a restaurant, bar, or coffee house. I’m saying to them, I’m not afraid to get to know you on your turf.
Were I to buy the beer and invite them to church, then the message I’m giving is that a beer bash is acceptable behavior in my house.
It’s the difference between being a missionary who enters an alien culture while maintaining his own values and a church who says there is no difference between us and the world.
Addendum: It’s the difference between hosting a beer-fueled ball game and encouraging a few of my more mature college students (who like to play) to go join the local (secular) games where beer is available and encouraging them to begin building relationships. I wouldn’t do the first; I would do the latter in a heart beat.
Thank you all for the comments – let’s keep the discussion going!
David,
One point I am making is that advertising must be understood in context. If I’m trying to reach people who hang out in a neighborhood brewery (upscale restaurant with ferns and their own micro-brewery) then I might want to make it clear that they can bring their beverage of choice with them into the meeting. (Again, this is all hypothetical; I’m trying to make a case for engaging culture, not to be an apologist for any one church.) So I can understand the temptation to find a clever catch phrase that speaks to my target audience.
SelahV,
Were I to do something like this, your grandson would not be the person I was trying to reach. I would have a ministry team (or teams) to plan, direct, and hold each other accountable. This is an outreach to the lost, not the life of the church.
Cyle,
Thank you for the words of wisdom. I like the idea of community standards. What works in St. Louis or Atlanta or Nashville might not work in Tulsa, OK.
On a lighter note:
David,
I would pay good money to see you in “a cute, little sundress and bonnet with high heels”.
I’ll give $100 to your church’s missions fund if you’ll have someone take that picture and let us post it on SBC Impact!
Anyone else want in on this?
Bowden, I greatly admire your concern for the lost and your desire to do something about it. You’re definitely dealing with a cultural issue at this point, but also one that is addressed in many of our church covenants. I believe your type of ministry would have been of great help to me when I was in college, and may have helped spare me from much anguish and frustration connected with straying from God.
As much as I like your idea and plans, there have been several major questions raised that I believe are very legitimate which must be considered regarding our less mature brothers and sisters in Christ. These are the ones whose own relationships with Christ are less developed. But here is my question: How much of this ministry that you propose will be directed to the mind (which is needful), and how much of it will lead the people into spiritual worship (which is at least as needful)?
Richard,
I’m not sure I understand your question. Could you elaborate a little?
I agree Bowden. It’s simply going where they are and presenting the gospel. It’s what missionaries in other countries do and have done for years. I have had my best opportunities to present the gospel in that type of environment where most feel that we think they must change first in order to come to church or even talking to a Christian they are feeling judged and condemned. This takes that hindrance away.
Bowden, sorry brother, you misunderstood my point completely. my grandson was considering this from the perspective of reaching out to others. And that was how he viewed his presence as a Christian in the bar doing the outreach—not the other way around. Hence the added points I made regarding the added evils that lurk within the den of satan’s cauldron, namely–scantily clad women with pick-up on their minds, drunks who wouldn’t care who was having what discussion about whatever or Whomever, drugs, second-hand smoke inhalation, etc.
What you are proposing might be a way to reach into the den is still an example you might also be endorsing for others who are not as strong spiritually and as reinforced to ward off the temptations set before them should they think they could handle such a ministry, Bowden. selahV
Brother Bowden,
Help me understand transparency and acceptance. If I am going to be transparent then whatever environment that I enter outside of the church and desire to be accepted into, I should not be ashamed of that environment inside of the church. That is being transparent in acceptance. Thus, if I am afraid of purchasing a couple of kegs to enable an environment within the church walls, that I have no problem entering outside of the church walls, where is the transparency in building a relationship. Am I not telling the people in the bar that I will visit them on their turf and want them to accept me without my changing, but if they come to my turf they have to change? Where is the acceptance in that?
Blessings,
Tim
Brother Bowden,
I almost forgot. I will put up another $100 to see Brother David in that sun dress. :^)
Blessings,
Tim
Richard, hello and welcome to IMPACT. I’m not going to answer for Bowden, but I do have an idea how this could affect the mind? Anyone who has ever counseled any drunk or person who is chemically impaired knows that the mind is simply not working at full capacity and in fact, alcohol kills brain cells as well as drugs. So just how ya gonna talk sense or reason to someone in that condition is beyond me. Also, I think their intent is to get them talking in the bar so they can get them to come outside the bar so I can’t see how much spirituality could be addressed without at least pointing out to them their lost state and the sin for which Jesus died on the cross to attone. But then would bringing up that fact offend them?
Thanks for your question and observation. selahV
SelahV,
Thanks for the clarification. I think your point is well taken. And, that’s why I think – were I to do something like this – there would need to be a team of mature Christians being intentional about how to plan and execute the whole thing.
On a side note; the venue the Journey was using appears (I use that word cautiously for I only know what I’ve seen on the web) to be the kind of up-scale microbrewery that is becoming popular in our area. Much closer to any number of chain restaurants that also sell beer than what pops into my mind when someone says “bar” (bar, to me, connotes something out of a 50′s film noir with dim lighting, no menu, and thick with cigarette smoke). In Tulsa, it would be any one of about four popular restaurants that are locally owned and happen to serve their own home made beer.
That may not make any difference to some readers or it may help to place the discussion in a different context.
Tim,
Excellent question. That’s why I like this blog… causes me to think.
You wrote: “If I am going to be transparent then whatever environment that I enter outside of the church and desire to be accepted into…”
I don’t think reaching out to people is the same as desiring to be accepted as one of them. I want them to know I genuinely care about them as a human being and not just as a notch in my evangelism belt. I want them to know that I’m not judging them for simply being who they are (lost and in the world). I want to earn the right to be heard by them, not necessarily to be accepted as one of them.
It’s what I do with my students. I make every effort to understand what it means to be 19 or 20 years old: I try to use analogies and metaphors that make sense to them. I try to communicate to them that I understand and appreciate the values they hold dear, even if I don’t agree with them.
I don’t try to act like I’m a college student. I’m a 47-year-old man: I can meet them where they live but I don’t even try to be one of them.
The transparency in the above scenario is “I really enjoy playing volleyball”. The genuineness is we have a lot in common (volleyball, music, stress of final exams, etc).
ok, fellas….i’m looking for a sundress that will fit a 6’1″ 375 lb. man. yes, that’s right…i now weigh only 375 lbs. i have lost 21 lbs. in the past 7 weeks. does anyone know where i might purchase such a dress?
david
David,
Congrats on the 21 lbs; and during the holidays, too!
I’m sure any one of the big box department stores would have ‘em (Penney’s, Dillard, Macy’s, etc.). I would suggest shopping on line: don’t want you to have to do too much explaining to your church members!
Especially if the wife only weighs 120…
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Brother Bowden,
I understand completely that a 47 & 48 year old man, like you and me respectively, should act like 20 year old college students. I agree. At the same time, if I expect 20 year old college students to allow me to bring my Bible to a bar, why should they not expect me to allow them to bring their beer to a church where I have my Bible study? Also, if there is imbibing by the participants,not those leading, at the bar during the Bible study how will I know if the Word of God is being sown into good soil? If I am not concerned whether it is good or bad soil, am I not casting pearl before swine? One other thing. How can one tell if a person is too drunk, buzzed, or just plastered to understand and participate in the Bible study? If you are going to remove one from the Bible study because they have had too much to drink, are you not being judgmental and thus not accepting them as they are? And one other thing then I will stop asking questions. Have you ever tried to tell someone in a bar that they are too drunk to participated in something they desire to participate in? I can tell you from experience, dealing with drunks in a bar is not Sunday School work. :^) Of course, being a counselor, I am sure that you already know that.
Blessings,
Tim
My struggle is where does it end? What about those who view dress and appearance as a stumbling block?
Between John 7:24 and James 2:1-4, you could make a pretty good argument that making dress and appearance an issue is not biblical.
Or those who insist church must be done in a building with the word “Baptist” on the sign? Or those who say I have to use Lifeway material for it to be a legitimate bible study? Or those who insist on Sunday and Wednesday services?
Was Paul in the wrong when he upbraided Peter for no longer eating with the Gentiles when James’s men came(Gal 2:11-13)? Should he have instead applauded him for not putting a stumbling block in the way of James’s men?
Rom 14 doesn’t stand alone and unbalanced. There’s a biblical place for saying to a brother “No, you’re adding unbiblical requirements, and that is resulting in harm both inside and outside the church”.
Tim,
Again, all good questions.
I don’t have a formula for working out acceptable boundaries for a project I’ve never done (and may not ever do).
Some boundaries are clear, even in the world: drunken heckling of a speaker would not be tolerated in any venue, Christian or not.
My church does a picnic at a local public park a few times each summer. We always encourage anyone in the park to join in. We don’t send people away from our pavilion if they show up with a can of beer in their hand. At the same time, I don’t think anyone would think twice about telling the same person that our church building is an alcohol free zone.
I suspect those are boundaries most people would respect.
What I’m taking from your questions is not how to do a ministry project; what your questions are causing me to think through is how does one be in the world but not of it.
I may not have all the answers at this moment, but – for me – the messiness of figuring out the boundaries and protocols will not prevent me from taking the church out to where people are.
The alternative appears to me to be some kind of Christian separatism that I’m not prepared to embrace.
Brother Bowden,
I honestly am not trying to be a devil’s advocate. I am just trying to make a point concerning the stance that I have taken about not using a bar setting to instigate a Bible Study.
We are told that we should be open and transparent about who we are. We are told that we should be accepting in our desire to build relationship. I am certainly in agreement that openness, transparency, and acceptance is very much needed and something that has been missing. However, we all have a certain amount of separateness that is needed in order for the message to be real.
You said, when referencing bringing beer into church; “I suspect those are boundaries most people would respect.” There are churches that have socials and have beer kegs available for adults. Mark Driscoll, at Mars Hill, is reported to have had a champagne fountain from 11:30 thru midnight last year. The church is not a sacred place as a alcohol free zone.
My point is that if the line is not clearly established it becomes blurred. In all honesty if a church has a Bible study in a bar, where those attending (not the leaders) are imbibing in moderate drink, then the same church should not be an alcohol free zone at outreach fellowship events. To do so would be a dichotomous position concerning outreach. IMHO.
Blessings,
Tim
Wow! What a great conversation!
Let me add my $100 to the David Worley sundress fund. But, David, I think you may have to check Lane Bryant.
I guess the only thought I will add is this:
If we are willing to only go into “respectable” places, free from temptation and vice, then are we truly only interested in reaching out to “respectable” people? Are we really saying that we only want them once they’ve “grown up” and “cleaned up?”
That seems to be a direction opposite that of Jesus, who dined with the tax collectors and sinners, and seemed to literally attract the “undesirables” and sinners of his culture … right where they were…
Tim,
You said, “In all honesty if a church has a Bible study in a bar, where those attending (not the leaders) are imbibing in moderate drink, then the same church should not be an alcohol free zone at outreach fellowship events. To do so would be a dichotomous position concerning outreach.”
Brother, that line of reasoning does not make sense to me.
It would be the same as, for example, saying we should not visiting sick people in the hospital unless we’re willing to have sick people in hospital beds spending the night in our churches.
Or saying we should not do outreach in public parks, unless we’re willing to let people bring their dogs and their pooper-scoopers into our churches…
Etc… etc… etc…
If we follow such an exclusionary view of potential places for outreach and ministry, the list of potential places is going to be infinitesimally small.
Tim,
I’m willing to maintain the church building as an alcohol free zone of the basis of Romans 14: why go out of my way to alienate members of the church to which I belong. And it would alienate members of Southwood.
I would agree with Geoff that I’m not following your reasoning.
You wrote: “we all have a certain amount of separateness that is needed in order for the message to be real”. While I agree with that statement, you and I apparently disagree what that separateness should be and where any lines should be drawn.
One of my concerns is that if we allow those with the strictest line (and I don’t think that’s you: I’m sure there are some in the SBC who would not be happy with where you draw your lines) to rule the day. If that should happen, then a rigid and legalistic minority would be in the position of dictating to us all.
I think that’s why people like me (I want to engage the culture but would have chosen a coffee house instead of a restaurant/bar for a venue) seem to take up the Journey’s cause: there is some concern we draw the line here or no telling where it will be drawn for us.
Brother Geoff,
My reasoning is not out of line. I am told that the reason for outreach Bible study in bars is because that is the way to let those who attend know that we are transparent. We see them where they are and we understand that they are not going to come to our church because we are not being relevant. If that is the case, then we should open our fellowship halls to having kegs available for those that may come and desire to moderately partake of a beer or a glass of wine.
Now, I know that neither of us would condone such and act, but what I am trying to say is that such a Bible study blurs the lines. When the lines are blurred to this extent, what will stop someone from desiring to move to such a position as I have suggested?
Blessings,
Tim
I remember being shook to my roots when I read of the group of “tax collectors and sinners” (the undesirables and “unspiritual” of Jesus’ day), friends of Levi/Matthew who had gathered and were eating with Jesus and His disciples. The text states, “for there were many of them, and they were following Him” (Mark 2:15). Could it be that certain “followers” of Jesus will never fit into the religious establishment picture? Could it be that they are acceptable to him even though they may not be acceptable to God’s people? Could it be that Jesus may end out with an entire host of followers who love Him but have simply rejected our church culture?
Speaking as someone who lives in a thoroughly secular society, whose fastest growing “religion” according to our last three census readings is the “no religion” category — I’ve learned some things about about secular people. Secular people do not listen to “Christian” radio, watch “Christian” TV, read “Christian” books or magazines, or attend “Christian” meetings for someone to talk to them. Yet these are still people that “God is not willing for any of them to perish but for all to come to repentance” (2 Pet 3:9). At the same time, these secular people are more than willing to engage in stimulating conversations concerning eternal issues. Postmodernism opens up huge venues for discussing the transcendent and the supernatural. There is an intense spiritual hunger in this generation. I need to be immersed in God’s word, because I may never have a chance to open a Bible with them. I can still give them God’s word through conversation.
If hanging around with “sinners” makes someone sinful, then our Savior was doomed. He lived out His holiness in the midst of sinful depravity. What did He receive from the “religious” for His efforts? Criticism for “eating and drinking with tax collectors and sinners” (Mark 2:16) and being called “a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners” (Matt 11:19), among other things. It is necessary that the doctor hang out where the sick people are (Luke 5:31). Otherwise, such lost people may never be found.
If most of our evangelistic efforts are placed within our worship services and in our dedicated houses of God, then the fact remains that the vast majority of population will remain unevangelized. Somewhere along the line “all the world” must include the “sinful” places. So the question of this entire issue remains — How will you and your church engage a beer-drinking lost public who will probably never set foot inside your church building and is certainly not interested in hearing you preach?
Brother Bowden,
You seem to be making a leap that is not being said. You have suggested that I am part of the most legalistic of those in our convention. You also seem to make a leap that I am not into engaging the culture. Those things are far from the truth. Ask anyone that knows me and you will find that I do things that most traditional pastors do not do. I, like Brother David, see nothing wrong with engaging culture in various venues. However, it is the movements into bars for Bible study, that I believe has moved into a category 6 on the contextualization scale. We have moved from engaging culture to becoming the culture. I know this is a huge leap and I do not condone it. However, if we move to bars in St. Louis, what will be wrong with a church beginning a Bible study in a hemp bar in San Francisco? There is a certain legality to hemp in California and the Bible does not necessarily condemn moderate use of hemp. As I said, I know it is a leap, but at the rate society is moving it certainly will not be out of the realm of possibility.
Blessings,
Tim
Tim,
Speaking for myself (and not for Geoff), I was saying I didn’t follow your reasoning, not that what you had to say was out of line. Your follow up comment clarified for me (I think) where you were going.
Re: Transparency. For me, being transparent is simply being who I am without hidden agendas. My purpose for the hypothetical above (remember: I don’t know any more about The Journey than what I’ve read on the net) is to first establish a relationship with people where they are before attempting to engage them in the other ministries of the church. My agenda would be to: meet, get to know, enjoy a good discussion/debate/dialog, and someday invite you to other ministries of the church.
Re: Relevance. I have studiously avoided the use of the term relevance in this post and comment thread. I think the bible stands alone and doesn’t need me to provide anything to make it more relevant. But – and this is the main point of my post – I believe the 20-something generation of college students and young adults will not hear any part of the bible unless I first earn the right to proclaim its message by showing a genuine interest in them as people. And that means being willing to go to where they are.
I don’t see a slippery slope from an event in a restaurant/bar to keggers in the fellowship hall because I see them as two completely different events. The first is an attempt to earn the right to speak Truth to them (in order for them to be willing to listen) and the second is a worship experience designed for believers.
Tim,
I honestly did not make that leap. I thought I made that clear in my ‘there are others who wouldn’t be happy with where you draw the line’ remark.
Thank you for the opportunity to clarify my thoughts… I don’t think that of you, although I think it’s fair to say we don’t see exactly eye-to-eye on where the distinctiveness should be.
I apologize for not being more clear.
Brother Bowden,
After re-reading your last comment to me I need to apologize. I mis-read your statement about legalism.
I do, however, feel that you have suggested that as a traditional pastor, I am not into engaging the culture. If I missed that, then I need to apologize there too. :^)
Blessings,
Tim
Brother Bowden,
We were writing at the same time.
Blessings,
Tim
Brother Bowden,
I think we are speaking past each other a bit. You said; “The first is an attempt to earn the right to speak Truth to them (in order for them to be willing to listen) and the second is a worship experience designed for believers.” I am not advocating a worship experience, I am speaking about a Bible study/fellowship time at the church.
I do not know about you but I have beat on this horse enough. I certainly have enjoyed the congenial debate. I do pray that your upcoming outreach event will be fruitful. If I am ever in Oklahoma I will try to make it to one of them. (Of course, I will order my own drink.:^) )
Blessings,
Tim
Tim,
You didn’t completely misread me although it might be more accurate to say I’m kinda down on traditional congregations re: engaging culture.
If you read comment #7, you’ll see what I think is a pretty modest plan to take the church to where people are (no where near as radical as what the Journey has done) and while I have the support of the leadership of the church, there are many people who don’t get it and are content to simply blame “those young people” for not behaving like they did two generations ago.
So… yeah, not a lot of faith in traditional congregations to reach this generation of young adults.
BTW, I would include bible study and fellowship under the umbrella of worship.
Tim,
Blessings and good night.
For a guy who didn’t want to do any more back and forth, you asked some thought provoking questions. Thanks for the insights and thoughts.
hey, i got a question….being one that spent a lot of time with drinkers in the past….my experience is that if you start talking about the Lord and the bible in a bar, then how are you gonna avoid the question…”is it wrong to drink liquor?” and, if you dont avoid the question, then how long will the audience stay with you? and/or, how long will the bar owner allow you to stay in the place?
david
David,
All I can say is I looked at the Journey’s web site and followed the link to where their event is held. Judging from their website (Schlafly Bottleworks) we’re talking about an upscale restaurant and micro-brewery. That is, a restaurant with a full menu only they serve their own self-brewed beer and/or specialty beers instead of the more standard fare found in the big chain restaurants. Not much different from an Appleby’s or Olive Garden or Lone Star Steak House.
We have a few locally owned restaurant/micro-breweries in Tulsa and they’re very popular with the socially aware, latte drinking, upwardly-mobile crowd. I could order a salad and an organic hot tea and fit right in with the rest of the patrons. (As long as I keep ordering $11 salads and $3 teas, I don’t think I’ll have to worry about the management kicking me out.)
And since that’s the kind of people I would be trying to reach, that’s the kind of “bar” I would choose.
(And my answer – as you have probably guessed – is that it is always wrong to get drunk.)
David,
For those who believe that all alcohol consumption is evil, then that could be quite a dilemma. For those who feel that only drunkenness is condemned in the scripture, then it may not be such a dilemma. In my society people are quite tolerant of others’ beliefs, so I tell them that my personal stance is that I choose not to drink alcohol (non-drinkers are not uncommon in this society). So far that stance has never been a hindrance to the relationship. If I sought to make people teetotalers without first surrendering their lives to Jesus, then the whole issue might become a great hindrance to the relationship. I have found those in the establishment perfectly happy to serve me a Diet Coke as long as I was willing to pay for it.
Interesting this comes the day I picked up the local paper and read that Destin UMC is starting a bible study at Hooters.
Brother Bowden, my question has been answered sufficiently, and I thank you. Although you cannot please everyone, the main question you must answer is: “Is God pleased with what I am doing?”
a bible study at hooters….lol. oh boy! and, leave it to the methodists for that one.
david
No way I’d do that one. I could do the theology at the pub – I hate the taste of beer.
Might be out of the question for us SBC’ers, but two of the three biggest churches in our county are UMC – both are over 2500 in worship each week.
I know numbers aren’t the whole deal, but they are doing a lot of missions work, ministry as well.
I think there are places and people who could do outreaches that others’ couldn’t do. If I know my brother’s heart, and I know he’s accountable, I’m going to trust them to follow the will of God as they see it.
david wilson,
i used to be a methodist. i know that there are still a few…very few…good methodist churches and pastors out there, but overall the methodist church has left the bible. we left the methodist church after having two pastors who laughed at the miracles, argued with my mother over her belief that the virgin birth was important, and they never preached nor taught the bible. the final straw was when my mom and dad were teaching the 4 and 5 yr old ss class, and the literature said that Jesus failed and made mistakes like all little boys and girls, so dont feel bad when you fail and make mistakes.
we never went back. we went and joined the baptist where the bible was believed and preached and taught.
david
It amazes me how I can read in the Bible of how Jesus would go to the places that the society of that time thought of as dirty and unworthy and yet touched so many lives. I’ve yet find someone who can explain to me when, how and why the church decided to stop trying to reach those similar areas in their own communities. Why is going to a bar, the projects, a prison or simply “the other side of the train tracks” so unattractive to so many clean and polished Christians? This prim and proper attitude only reminds me of the Pharisees in Jesus’ days.
My understanding from the scriptures is that we are to go to those places and spread the Gospel without reservations. I mean, we send out money and people on missions to visit those places in other countries. Why are we so embarrassed to do the same works in our own communities? You would think that a church would want to be known for making an impact in their community first and the rest of the world second. Can anyone please give me a nonbiased, scripture-based answer?
In Christ,
Ivan
Dear Ivan,
11 years ago while laying in a hospital bed trying to die, the Lord basically impressed this point on my heart. I had no right to preach a sermon I was not willing to live but that He was willing to empower me to live my life doing what He talked about in Luke 4, IF I would stop looking at others and look at myself. I have found that there are many churches out there getting dirty, and many believers wading through the muck and mire of difficult places to rescue the perishing. If I had the room and the time I could give hundreds of names of men and women I know that have given up everything to follow Jesus in a way that I KNOW He would approve. Ivan, you may be doing the stuff and if you are then keep it up! If you are doing more talking than doing then please start using Luke 4 as a blueprint. Also, please remember that a bunch of us out here ARE doing the stuff that Jesus talked about. Hopefully we won’t all be designated as Pharisee’s. Blessings!
Ivan – The training for this mentality unconsciously begins in youth groups that use Psalm 1:1 as a way to keep youth from partying and hanging out with those that do. Once that “seed” is planted – and it’s a Scriptural seed – we conclude that we are better people if we do not go to the places that the sinners and scornful go. We are also – quite correctly – taught that our testimony is incredibly important, based on things like Proverbs 13:20 and Proverbs 22:1. Another common “perpetrator” is Ephesian 5:11 – “Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness.” Are these good Scriptural principles? You bet your doggies they are. Are we given license to ignore them? Not that I’m aware of. Do they mean that we can’t minister in bars and alleys? I don’t think so, but I think they are sound Scriptural warnings that we are not to ignore the principles of Christian living by putting ourselves in surroundings that make us appear to be compromising the Gospel.
One thing we should all remember – Jesus Christ was the perfect, sinless Son of God. None of us can make that claim. It’s easy to fool ourselves into thinking that our motive for putting ourselves in “tempting” surroundings is pure and holy, but if we really dive into the core, we’re not pure and holy, are we? We WILL be tempted. Satan will make sure of that.
It’s also, in the eyes of many Christians – again, justifiably so – rather hypocritical to tell our youth to stay away from drugs and alcohol if we don’t protect our own testimony from contamination by it.
Can I “go into a bar” and maintain a Christian testimony? Yes. In most cases, I’ll stick out like a sore thumb. Can I go into a brothel and maintain a Christian testimony? Well, now. Can I go into an adult toy store and maintain a Christian testimony? Hmmm. Can I purchase and operate an alochol based establishment, as a Christian, and encourage pastors and Christians to come there and witness to my customers and patrons? Hmmm. Ooooh, can I set up a website for the distribution of pornography, just making sure that the Romans Road is one of the pages, so that those who want to see illicit images can find the way to God? Oooh. There once was a XXX theater near my home. Just curious, would it have been okay for my dad to go there every Friday night, buy a ticket, and witness to whomever he happened to be near, all the while allowing inappropriate images to infiltrate his mind? Hmmmm. What about “gang ministry”? Can I join the Crips in order to try to lead them to Christ? What about Wicca? Can I attend coven meetings to try to influence them for Christ? Oh, and New Agers… I’m supposed to be salt and light, so would it be okay for me to “go undercover”, forsaking the appearance of Christianity, and work as a giggolo in order to be “on the level” of THOSE people who need Christ?
A lot of discussion here about “alcohol” is justified because Jesus went to the sinners. I understand, and I agree. But Ivan has asked for Scriptural reasons to “not get dirty.” I believe that there are MANY Scriptural reasons to “not get dirty”, and I think we are amiss if we justify “dirty” ministry methods SIMPLY because Jesus ate with the sinners of the time. My point is that “alcohol” isn’t the only “dirty” thing out there, and if we justify “dirty” just because we presuppose that Jesus did dirty ministry, we may be ignoring other parts of the Biblical directive.
“Dirty” ministry isn’t just about alcohol, folks. Trying hard to live a Christian life in the purity that we are called to doesn’t automatically make me – or anybody else – a Pharisee. That’s tantamount to calling a government Communist or Nazi just because they impose a speed limit.
“None of us can make that claim” should have included the words “about ourselves.”
That’s quite an army of straw men, bro.
What if we stop trying to label each other and start praying for each other? I guarantee you that I could do a theology in a pub venue because I have no desire for alcohol and do work very hard at letting the Spirit rule my thoughts and actions and not my own preferences.
Maybe others cannot. Fine. That doesn’t make them less of a follower of Jesus. Or me more.
I’m not really concerned with what the SBC thinks, or the Florida Baptist convention thinks. I don’t answer to them. If I’m led to do some ministry that I believe will reach into the darkness then that’s where I’ll go. I’ll stay prayed up, I’ll stay accountable, but I will go.
I think in the next few years we are going find that more and more people are going to be far less concerned with the approval of men.
David – Straw men???? You miss my point entirely. Entirely. Way freaking entirely.
I’m gonna cool down a little before I respond to this, because calling this a straw man argument is the epitome of insulting and it’s a little hard on my attitude right now. Sorry. I’m a little sick and tired of that response.
All right, gentlemen, a little less emotion and a little more grace, please.
“Cooleth thy jets and remembereth the goal of this, thy blog, to “spur toward love and good deeds.”
David – Okay, I’ll grant that some of these, as I presented them, are intentionally straw men in that they are easily answered as “no way.” My contention, however, is that our justification for saying “no way” to joining the Crips in order to win them to Christ is debateable. If it’s okay to do theology in a bar, why is joining the Crips for the same reason such an obvious “no brainer”? If it’s okay to patronize a bar for the purpose of spreading the gospel, why would it be wrong to OWN one for the same purpose? That’s not intended to be a straw man; it’s an intense question that I want to use to force us all to examine our goals. If we accept “being around alcoholics” as a valid ministry method, why should I – if I’m a strong Christian who is not tempted by witchcraft and am eternally secure in my salvation – not place myself in the company of witches in the hope of converting them? Is that a straw man or a valid question? Call it a straw man if you wish, but it’s a question that it’s only fair to ask. Why should a college kid submit to authority when his pastor snubs the SBC and insists that he has a right to do ministry in such and such a way?
What I’m trying very hard to say is that, while I’m a proponent of dirty ministry when it is really directed by God, we DO have a responsibility to maintain testimony in the eyes of both men and God. That’s not the same as “being concerned with the approval of men”. I’m more concerned about my testimony as viewed by UNSAVED men and women than I am by saved men and women.
My responsibility, as is yours, is to God. However, I maintain that God has called us to “avoid the appearance of evil” before men. My responsibility is not to the men, but I am accountable to God for how I portray His Son to those men.
I’m not calling dirty ministry sin. I’m simply saying that we can’t justify dirt simply by adding the word ministry to it.
We’re “taking on” alcohol right now. A big chunk of SBC has decided that alcohol is actually not Biblically prohibited. The resolve against it is breaking down, bit by bit. I agree it is not Biblically prohibited. I agree there is all kinds of Biblical reasoning and justification to minster among the users of alcohol. But we, as Christians, need to continually evaluate whether we are pursuing ministry methods in order to win souls or simply to be the coolest church on the block for a certain age.
I’m simply calling for accountability that is bigger than saying “God told me to do this.” I’m pretty doggone sure that such accountability – to man – IS Scriptural when done appropriately. I’m not saying that every man has the right to impose restrictions on another, but I’m saying that no one man should assume that he has the complete word from God regarding a certain type of ministry without having the input, oversight, and accountability requirements from several other Godly men.
Straw men? Possibly now, but in ten years, I just about guarantee you’ll see every one of those issues very much active in SB life.
PS – Sorry to be “ticked off” easily by your comment. These were intended to be something very different than straw men, and it rubbed me wrong to have them dismissed as such. Sorry. All is peaceful here
I’m sorry if you feel I was inaccurate in my categorization, but how far down the road (brothel, XXX theater, Crips, etc.)away from the main point do you get before it becomes not true and thus a straw man? I did not mean to insult at all, just question your logical assumptions and extrapolations. And if insult is the way it was received, then I most humbly apologize.
If we have so little trust in the Holy Spirit’s work with others then it really doesn’t matter what the ministry is – contemporary music, satellite churches, house churches, pub ministry – whatever. I’m fully prepared to be wrong in my concerns about other methods, and am trying to give my brothers and sisters my prayers rather than my barbs.
Lots of things I wouldn’t do, but that doesn’t mean they are inherently wrong – just different.
You’d have probably hated our yoga class.
I’ve got to head out on a five hour trip back to my hometown of Macon, GA so any reply will be much, much later if at all.
David – No insult taken, in the long run, and no apology necessary. As Geoff said, I just needed to cool my jets a little. Sorry for the hasty “attitude” response.
To be clear – I’m very much on the side of “taking ministry where it’s needed.” I fully know that different ministries have different “edginess” quotients, and I like that. I just think that we need to realize that the import often goes beyond just saying “I don’t have to obey the SBC” and realize that lives may be NEGATIVELY affected by our loss of “validity” in the minds of non-Christians as well. Many non-Christians associate alcohol with loose women, bar fights, and general drunkeness. When we cross that line, we give up some of our credibility in their eyes. Is that important? I think so, but I don’t mean to say that we should base our ministry on our credibility. It’s just that we can’t ignore it, and we often skirt that line.
Again, sorry to be so freaking easily offended.
I’m taking off (yes really this time) – but taking with me to Macon the recent book unChristian. Might want to take a look at the research and see where the attitudes in some of the culture war areas are headed.
My gut feeling is that the stigma attached to alcohol will be gone shortly except in some Christian subcultures. The book seems to back that up (so it must be right
)
But it goes on to point out other areas such as cohabitation, same sex relationships, file sharing/digital theft where the younger generations are essentially approving of clearly sinful behavior.
Deeply troubling to me – this unChristian book. I’m going to review it chapter by chapter starting next week from a small church context.
Grace!
David
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