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The Rapture: Before or After Tribulation?
Posted by Les Puryear in Uncategorized
I have stated in the past that I am a Historic Premillenialist. Basically that means that I hold a post-tribulation view of the second coming of Christ. A Premillenialist is one who believes that Jesus will return prior to the 1000 years (millenium) of His reign on the earth. There are basically two kinds of Premillenialist: Dispensational Premillenialist and Historic Premillenialist.
The Dispensational Premillenialist (also known as “Pre-Trib”) believes that the second coming of Christ occurs in two phases. Phase 1 is when Christ comes back to rapture (catch up) His church before the Great Tribulation (1 Thess. 4:16-17). Phase 2 is when Christ returns to earth with His church after the Great Tribulation. In this view, Christians will not go through the Tribulation. This view is very popular among evangelical Christians today and is the theological framework of the “Left Behind” series of books by noted Pre-tribber, Tim LaHaye.
The Historic Premillenialist (also known as “Post-Trib”) believes that the second coming of Christ is not in phases and happens all at once. Christ comes back only once which is after the Great Tribulation. As Christ is coming, those who are alive will be raptured (caught up) to meet Him in the air and join all of the saints in coming down with Jesus. In this view, Christians will go through the Great Tribulation. This view is not as popular as the Pre-Trib view but is held by many reformed theologians, foremost of whom is Dr. John Piper.
I have a hermeneutic principle which I repeat a lot to my church: “Read what the Bible says, not what you want it to say.” Pursuant to this line of thought, I would like to take a look at the passage which most Pre-tribbers refer to when speaking of a pre-tribulation rapture; 1 Thess. 4:16-17.
The passage reads as follows: “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”
Where does this verse say that after believers are “caught up” with Christ in the air that Christ then does a U-turn and takes all believers back to heaven? I cannot find that in this passage. As a matter of fact, the only place in this passage where a destination is indicated is in the word “descend”. “For the Lord Himself will descend for heaven…” The word “descend” means to “come down.” There is no indication in this passage that anything else is happening except that Christ is coming down from heaven. If He is coming down from heaven, what might His destination be? The only logical conclusion I can reach is that He is coming down from heaven to earth. There is no indication anywhere in this passage of a partial descending or a U-turn returning Christ and His believers back to heaven.
It seems to me that those who wish to force this passage to say something it clearly does not say have the burden of proof here.
I hold to the Historic Premillenialist (Post-Trib) position because I find it to be biblical. I can find no biblical evidence for the Dispensational Premillenialist position. I have tried very hard to find any biblical reference for the Pre-Trib position, but have not found one verse of scripture to clearly and directly support the Pre-Trib view.
Is there clear cut biblical evidence for the Pre-Trib view? If you have biblical evidence for the Pre-trib view, I would like to read your biblical defense of such a view.
One added comment from me and I’ll let you have the floor. I understand that I have presented very complex theological positions in a rather simplistic way. So don’t chastise me for not presenting the entirety of either Premillenial position. I only wish to address the “before or after Tribulation” rapture question.
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Brother Les,
Do not have time to respond, but I want to. I feel like a mosquito at a nudist colony. It is a pleasure to be here, but I just do not know where to begin. :^)
I will be back.
Blessings,
Tim
I’ve long said that it’s possible to defend virtually ANY of the primary end times beliefs if you pick the right verses.
I’m honestly not quite sure of what I believe about either of these. I’ve been taught everything from Pre-millenial to Amillenial, and I’ve never been satisfied with the explanation of any of them.
Just from a “logic” side of the fence, it seems that the PostTrib belief would make it possible to predict the coming of Christ, almost to the day, once we find the midpoint of the Tribulation, because of the specific events that are mentioned as being at the midpoint. If this is true, wouldn’t that cause a little problem with the fact that Jesus said “no man knows the time” of His return? (I’m not arguing for or against at this point; this is just one problem that I see with this particular approach).
I am currently a post-tribber too.
I use to be a post-tribber, but after reading the Bible and thinking about these issues, it just didn’t seem to add up to me. Plus a lot of the arguments that pre-tribbers use against post-tribbers are arguments that could defeat their own position too.
There are a lot of amillennialist coming back these days… I have a few friends who have been swayed in that direction.
God’s Glory,
Lew
The Pursuit Online Store
Bernard,
To me it makes more sense to be a post-trib because of that very point. Granted we won’t know when the “rapture” would occur if it was a pre-trib rapture. I think it would be easier to know when Jesus will return (permanently) if there wasn’t a huge event like millions of Christians being raptured seven years beforehand.
But it is probably going to be pretty difficult to know the exact time by looking at events leading up to it. Plus, the Jews totally botched Jesus’ first coming
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God’s Glory,
Lew
Lew – Good point. By the way, you may need to clarify your first response – I think one of your “posts” was meant to be a “pre”, and I’m not 100% sure of which one, but I think I know
Brother Les,
Tell me how you see Matthew 24:15. Is that literal or figurative? Also, in the Revelation, where is the church mentioned after Revelation 3:22?
Just a few questions to get us started. :^)
Blessings,
Tim
Tim,
Thanks for the getting the scripture started.
Matt. 24:15 – I believe it’s literal. Many believe this was fulfilled in the intertestmental period when Antiochus Epiphanes IV took over Jerusalem and sacrificed a pig on the temple altar. Others believe it was fulfilled in or about 70 AD when the Romans crushed the Jews in the Jewish War, desecrated the temple, and then destroyed the temple. Dispensationalists believe this is a futurist verse of some “yet to come” occasion when the so-called Antichrist will desecrate the rebuilt temple. As for me, I hold to the second of these views.
Rev. 3:22 – Sigh. I’ve heard this question so many times that it is hard to take it seriously. The absence of a word, “ekklesia,” does not indicate the absence of the church. This is similar to those who argue that Jesus was okay with homosexuality and abortion because He never mentioned it.
The church is everywhere in the text beyond Rev. 3:22. What is the church? Believers in Jesus Christ. Does Revelation tell of people coming to Christ after Rev. 3:22? Absolutely. Are those believers the “body of Christ”? Yes, they are. Are they the church? Of course they are.
BTW, if you want to ask about the removal of the Holy Spirit, let me ask you how does anyone come to Christ without the Holy Spirit? The answers is they can’t. The Holy Spirit guides them into all truth.
Also, what do you do with 2 Thess. 2:1-4, which is the closest thing to a chronological passage of the coming of Christ in the Bible? Verse 1 puts the order as “the coming of Christ” first and then “our gathering together to Him.” Also, if the church is raptured, then how can verses 3-4 be true?
God promises to keep us from His wrath and he will do that by protecting His people, those whom He seals. However, Christians will die as the wrath of Satan is poured out. As a matter of fact, they’re dying right now for Christ. Why would you think we’re any more less likely to die for Christ than the thousands of martyrs that have already perished for His name?
Read what the Bible says, not what you want it to say.
Les
Bernard,
I think you’re assuming that I agree with those who place the tribulation as a 7 1/2 time period. I don’t believe I said that I hold to such a belief.
Les
Les – I’m not assuming that you agree with anyone. My response was directed to the question of “pre” vs. “post” and was intended to offer one question for consideration.
Not everyone in the world has their entire doctrinal system locked in stone. Some of us are still studying and learning.
Brother Les,
Romans 8:1 tells us that we are no longer condemned to the Wrath of God. What you are saying is that Satan has ultimate control. God releases Satan but this is God’s wrath begin poured out through Satan. The last 3 1/2 years are God’s wrath being poured out straight from him. So, how can those who call Jesus Lord be exposed to the condemning wrath that we have been told we were exempt from in Romans?
You are right. Stay with the Scripture, all of the Scripture. :^)
Blessings,
Tim
Les I would still have to go to 2Thess 2 and talk about that.
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: we ask you, brothers,
2 not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For [that day]will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.
4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God.
5 Don’t you remember that when I was still with you I told you about this?
6 And you know what currently restrains [him], so that he will be revealed in his time.
7 For the • mystery of lawlessness is already at work; but the one now restraining will do so until he is out of the way,
8 and then the lawless one will be revealed. The Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of His mouth and will bring him to nothing with the brightness of His coming.
if they are pre-mill pre trib Christians and “that the Day of the Lord has come.”
You could see why they would be troubled;
they had missed the rapture and were in the tribulation.
If they are post trib christians and “the Day of the Lord has come.” what are they concerned about? That the day of the Lord came and it didn’t?
If they are amill or post mill.. and the day of the Lord has come and they have missed it… well you see the argument.
The only way of understanding this is to say they were premill pretrib christians (that that is the intent of what Paul had taught them at Thessalonica, and that was the theological context in which the second coming was to be understood, and 1 Thess 4 and 5 were to be understood.
This then makes sense of the various terms associated with “the Day of the Lord”.. that the Day of the Lord is longer than one day is evident from Zechariah 14 (that is that it includes the rapture, tribulation and revelation of the Lord in Glory.
OK bro try and shoot me down
Steve
Brother Tim,
I absolutely agree with you about Rom. 8:1. However, I disagree with you about the outpouring of Satan’s wrath being the same as God’s wrath.
You’re correct in that Satan can only do what God allows. However, it is grossly incorrect to say that the doings of Satan is outpouring of God’s wrath. An argument like that says that everything that Satan does to Christians is the outpouring of God’s wrath. I thought we were immune to God’s wrath. Brother you’re speaking in circles.
In Revelation, there are two distinct outpourings of wrath: Satan’s wrath unleashed through Antichrist on the church (martyrs, i.e., Christian’s will die), and God’s outpouring of His wrath on the followers of Antichrist. God’s wrath does not harm the church because the church is sealed by the Holy Spirit. God knows His own and His wrath will passover His own just as it did in Egypt.
Steve,
Yours is a novel interpretation of the text. Your argument is flawed in that the only possibility you see is a pre-mill, pre-trib view and there is nothing in the text to presume a premill-pre-trib view.
You presuppose that 1 Thess. 4 and 5 teaches a premill, pretrib theological context when nothing could be further from the truth. Can you show me just one verse in 1 Thess. 4 and 5 that directly teaches a premill, pretrib position? Just one.
I’m sorry friend, but it’s not there unless you impose your presupposition onto the text.
Les
Steve,
You’re going have to show me premill pretrib in Zech. 14. I don’t see it.
Also, Verse 7 says “It shall be one day.” How do you get multiple days out of that?
Les
I honestly realize this adds nothing of any significance, but I don’t get a chance to say it very often:
I’ve always heard “Pray for pre; prepare for post”.
Honestly, though, I’m one of those liberals (yikes!) who says the Bible isn’t clear enough to know, so we’re just gonna’ have to wait and see. What I believe about it won’t change the reality of what God has ordained.
Rick,
You’re right in that there is much mystery in the second coming of Christ, especially where timing is concerned. No one can know the time when Christ returns. However, I believe that Dispensational Premillenalism sets up a false hope for many believers.
The danger I see in the Premill, pretrib position is 1) it is not biblical, 2) it gives false hope that believers won’t be persecuted, 3) when persecution does come and these people are still on the earth, they will fall away from the faith (2 Thess. 2:3).
I cannot in all good conscience tell the people whom God has placed under my care that they won’t be persecuted, that they won’t be killed, that they won’t be in harm’s way because of their faith. Thousands of Christians are going through tribulation today in China, Indonesia, The Middle East, Philippines, etc. Try preaching an “escapist” theology to them and see how long they listen to you.
No, my brother, I can do nothing less than to make my people aware that our day of persecution is coming and for them to be ready for it. I do not want them to be surprised when the time comes when they are arrested for standing up for Christ. I want their faith to be strong and sturdy in the face of opposition. Not begging God to take them out of harm’s way, but asking for the grace to persevere and overcome it.
That’s why I think this discussion is so very important.
Les
Les,
I am an “amillennialist” (meaning I believe the mellennium occurs between Christ’s first advent and his second coming). I have great sympathies with the historical premillenial position, and there are times when I opt for that view. Your article and comments here are outstanding. I enjoyed reading them. Thanks for posting.
I am a historical premil guy as well. I thought I was virtually alone in SB life until I read Dr. John Newport’s ‘The Lion and the Lamb’. This is an excellent commentary on Revelation from the Historic premil view.
I have argued with others on the wrath of God thing before; the idea that there must be a rapture because otherwise God’s wrath would be poured out on believers as well. My response to those who don’t believe that God can seal and protect His own is that I will not build my theology on what I think God can’t do.
Oh, and just to add- the verse that says the dead in Christ will rise first- my dad always taught me that that proves the Lutherans are going first.
Bernard,
You’re right, I meant to say that I use to be a “pre-tribber.”
Thanks!
God’s Glory,
Lew
Earl,
I would like to hear some of the amillenialist view. I have read a few authors who hold that position, but I have a difficult time understanding their logic. Perhaps you can explain it more clearly.
Strider,
Thanks for the heads up on Newport’s book. I haven’t read that one. A couple of others are books from Robert Gundry as well as one from George Eldon Ladd.
Les
mmmmm well I think you have taken a very superficial view of the passages mentioned to attempt to shoot the argument down so easily.
Zech 14 the day of the Lord includes from the day of the Lord’s setting His feet on the Mt. of Olives to the feast of Booths..16 Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of • Hosts, and to celebrate the Festival of Booths.
19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Booths.
20 On that day, [the words]HOLY TO THE LORD will be on the bells of the horses. The pots in the house of the Lord will be like the sprinkling basins before the altar.
21 Every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the Lord of Hosts. Everyone who sacrifices will come and take some of the pots to cook in. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of Hosts.
that is longer than one day…
ok… the other section?
Why are post trib believers in Thesslaonica
“not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come.”
I do not see how post trib believers would be upset about anything if the day of the Lord had already come…
they would have been raptured.. wouldn’t they?
Steve
Steve,
Sorry if you think I was superficial. I looked at the text you mentioned in Zechariah and don’t see what you see. No premill pretrib there unless you can show me specifically.
In regard to 2 Thess 2, I know of no reputable biblical scholar who holds your position on the “day of the Lord.”
Les
Hi Les,
I’ll be glad to give you a thumbnail sketch. I go into boring detail in my blog during December 1-25 as I walk through Revelation, but I don’t recommend anyone read it unless they have *real* sleep problems.
First, I understand having difficulty in following the logic of it. There are a couple of paradigm shifts that are debatable. They make sense to me, but the mileage will vary.
Several major premises to the amillennial view:
. The 1000 years in Revelation 20 is also a recapitulation of history from Christ’s ascension to Christ’s second coming. In my community (conservative Presbyterians), this is where the historical premillennium folk part their ways from us amillennium guys.
(1) The numbers in the book of Revelation have symbolic import, just as the description of Christ, the four living creatures, etc. So 1,260 days, 42 months, or 3.5 years refer to the tribulation period for the church that lasts from Christ’s first advent until his second coming (or to the intense period of tribulation described as 3.5 days for the 2-witnesses in Revelation just prior to Christ’s second coming).
(2) The beginning of the tribulation in Revelation is seen by the persecution of the woman (Romans 12) by the dragon. Christ is born at this time and taken up to heaven, and the woman, who represents Israel, Mary, and the Church, is persecuted and protected in the wilderness for 1,260 days.
(3) The seals, trumpets, bowls, along with other visions, retell the same period of history from Christ’s ascension to either the just prior or to Christ’s second coming. Amill people have their own jargon for this retelling, “recapitulation”. Think of a timeline, where different transparent overlays are placed over the timeline (like human body overlays in an encyclopeadia, the digestive system overlay, the nervous system overlay, etc.). Each cycle presents a different view for the same period of time, with Revelation 12+ presenting the deep spiritual conflict.
(4) Here is where us amil guys start waving our hands frantically
That’s it in a nutshell. I think I put some people to sleep with this explanation. Sorry. But I’ll be glad to entertain some questions, or not, whatever you think is good. I’m not here to win converts to my view, merely explain it if it suits the purpose of the blog and those who run it.
Thanks.
Steve,
I felt I owed you a more complete explanation of my view of 2 Thess. 2:1-2 and so here it is. The following is an excerpt from a theologian whom I respect and speaks my position much more clearly than I could.
“What was the exact nature of the error which was troubling the Thessalonians? Taking the translation, ‘the day of the Lord has come’ (2:2), we may follow either one of two lines of thought in looking at this passage from a pretribulational standpoint.”
“First, the Thessalonians, unaware of a pretribulational rapture, were led to believe that they had entered the tribulation, which they thought was part of the day of the Lord. To say this, however, is to invalidate the case for pretribulationalism in both 1 and 2 Thessalonians. For if the Thessalonians themselves did not gather pretribulationalism from 1 Thessalonians, it is at least doubtful that we who lack their advantage of having enjoyed Paul’s oral ministry should find that doctrine taught there with any clarity. And in 2 Thessalonians Paul barely reminds them of what he had more fully taught while he was still with them (see 2:5). If his detailed teaching at that time had not made them cognizant of a pretribulational rapture, this skelatal review of that oral instruction could hardly have sufficed to inform and correct them—or us.”
“Second, [the other view would be that] the Thessalonians thought that a pretribulational rapture had already occurred and that they had been left behind in the tribulation, which (as in the preceding view) they believed to be part of the day of the Lord. John Walvoord writes, ‘Paul is answering this question in effect, ‘No, you are not going to enter that period. The Lord will come for you first.” Paul omits making an outright statement of the most important point in such an interpretation of the passage—viz., a pretribulational advent and rapture. Yet according to pretribulationalism, this was the very matter about which the Thessalonians were confused. Paul could not have taken for granted their understanding a pretribulational rapture from the former epistle, for then they would not have fallen into error in the first place. Correction of the error would have required a categorical statement to the effect that the rapture will take place before the tribulation. Such a statement nowhere appears.” “The Church and the Tribulation,” by Robert Gundry (pp 118-119).
I could list other references from other works, however my comment is already too long. If you wish to further examine this point of view you can look at “The Blessed Hope,” by George Eldon Ladd, pp 92-93; “Has Christ’s Return Two Stages?” by Norman F. Douty, pp 78-79; “The Rapture: A Question of Timing,” by William R. Kimball, pp 156-158.
There are many more resources but I will stop with these.
Regards,
Les
Earl,
Thanks for elaborating on your position. I think I understand it better now.
Les
Thanks Les,
but
1. I think the error that the Thessalonians may have been disturbed by is of a partial rapture teaching (some got in, some missed out on the pre trib rapture).
2. But ok, taking on board that you do not hold that that is the error of the Thessalonians, then what is the error that unsettled them? What had they missed?
Steve
Steve,
Here’s my answer to your question about the Thessalonians in Chapter 2, verse 1 as to what was the error that unsettled them. You submit that they were premill pretribbers and thought they had missed the rapture. Once again I’ll turn to scholarly sources for an answer:
What then was the exact nature of the false teaching which had agitated the Thessalonians? First, they erroneously thought that the day of the Lord will include the tribulation. Paul both implies and answers this error with his statement that two conspicuous events representative of the tribulation must precede the day of the Lord. Second, the Thessalonians erroneously thought they had entered the tribulation. Paul both implies and answers this error with the same statement concerning the two tribulational events which obviously had not taken place. Third, the Thessalonians erroneously concluded that Christ’s coming lay in the immediate future, with resultant cessation of work, fanatical excitement, and disorder. Paul both implies and answers this error with this statement that the day of the Lord is neither immediate nor imminent because of the precedence of tribulational events. A similar corrective appears in Paul’s exhortation to return to orderly living. Thus, it was not sorrow over a missed rapture which agitated the Thessalonians, but wild anticipations of an immediate return of Christ” The Church and the Tribulation,” by Robert Gundry (pp 121).
The Thessalonians were agitated by the thought that Christ was just about to descend from heaven. They were in a frame of mind similar to that of Christ’s disciples when, on His last journey to Jerusalem, He neared that city. “They thought,” said Luke, “that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.” Has Christ’s Return Two Stages?,” by Norman F. Douty (pp 83).
[In Thessalonians 2:1-2] the Thessalonian Christians, as it appears, had become troubled about eschatology, probably from an overly apprehensive response to Paul’s former admonition that they should “wait for God’s Son from heaven” (1 Thess. 1:10). Some had quit work (2 Thess. 3:10), and they thought that “the day of the lord” must be upon them. Paul, however, assures them that this could not be, because a falling away, the coming of the man of sin (the Antichrist), and certain other events would have to occur first (2 Thess. 2:3ff).
The natural interpretation of verses 1 and 2 is that the parousia of Christ and the accompanying rapture, or gathering together to Him, are to occur at the day of the Lord, but that the Antichrist and the other aspects of the tribulation will have to come first. The hope of the church, in other words, is post-tribulational.”
The Imminent Appearing of Christ,” by J. Barton Payne (pp 59-60).
I hope this clarifys my position and specifically answers your question.
Merry Christmas!
Les
Thanks Les, but the scholars you quote are no more scholarly than those scholars that propose a pretrib rapture, or those that propose an amillenial or post millenial position.
Bye the way, I am not sure if you noticed, but Gundry proposes the same expostion of 2 thess 1 for a post trib rapture that I would propose for a pretrib rapture… no stronger and no weaker..
As I said, in the pre trib rapture view those that were distressed thought they were already in the tribulation (having missed the rapture) in the post trib view the disturbed folks thought they were in the tribulation and that the pre trib view was wrong. The answer to both positions is what Gundry said.
The only strength of the post trib view is that the rapture hasn’t been mentioned (an argument from silence).
I guess then from a post trib viewpoint, that the rapture can’t happen until after the Antichrist seats himself in the temple of God. So that would place the rapture at between 1 to 7 years after this event?
So, the Lord Jesus said Matt 24:36 “Now concerning that day and hour no one knows—neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son—except the Father only. 37 As the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. 38 For in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah boarded the ark. 39 They didn’t know until the flood came and swept them all away.
Yet in the post trib view, was He wrong, for if He had been post trib, He’d surely have not said no one knows the day or the hour; rather, He’d have said “you can figure out the date of the rapture from the events of the tribulation period”
I see the strength of the post trib view being the argument from silence in 2 Thess 2.
I see the weakness of the post trib view being the negation of the any moment view of the rapture of the church, something that the biblical writers seem intent on maintaining: Titus 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. 14 He gave Himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to cleanse for Himself a special people, eager to do good works.
Paul waited for the Blessed Hope, not the Terrible Tribulation.
1 John 2:28So now, little children, remain in Him, so that when He appears we may have boldness and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 3:2 Dear friends, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him as He is.
John awaits transformation, not tribulation.
Rev 3:10 Because you have kept My command to endure,I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is going to come over the whole world to test those who live on the earth.
The Lord told the Philadelphian church they would escape the hour of testing..
Towns “One cannot read the New Testament and conclude the writers believed in other than an imminent return of Christ. Christ can return at any moment. Christians are exhorted to keep watching for His return (1 Thes. 5:1-8; 2 Pet. 3:8-10) and wait for it (1 Cor. 1:7; 1 Thes. 1:9,10; Tit. 2:13).”
http://www.tyndale.edu/dirn/articles/post-trib.html
Anyhow, Les, while the arguments both ways can be tendencious (appealing to our fleshly love of debate and the pride which desires to prove the other party wrong), I think personally, there is enough evidence in scripture for me to advocate and teach the pretrib rapture view.
However , I would be not so arrogant as to conclude that there are not other ways that may seem as right as the pre trib view to others. It is an area where we allow our diversity to not affect our fellowship. I will be delighted to not go through the tribulation, but if that is not to be, then that is not to be.
The case I would make for a pre trib or post trib rapture view as opposed to a post mmill or an amill view, is that we are more likely to preach about the Blessed Hope, than the amill guys do (or don’t). And I think that is a New Testament priority. Very evidently faith, hope and love are New Tesatment values that need to be vigorously maintained in every church (1 Thess 1:3 We recall, in the presence of our God and Father, your work of faith, labor of love, and endurance of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ)
Which churches are instilling Hope into their congregations? Bible churches! Premill churches most of which are pre trib rapture.
Have a great Christmas Day Les,
Steve
Steve,
Perhaps I misunderstand your inference, but you seem to imply that unless one teaches premill pretrib, then one is not teaching hope. Nothing could be further from the truth. The blessed hope is not escaping the tribulation. The scripture you quote never mentions that is the blessed hope. No, the blessed hope is the return of Christ. Christ is our true hope, not some escapist fable.
BTW, when you refer to timing, when did I say that the tribulation was 1 to 7 years? I don’t believe I have ever stated that. So dont jump to conclusions about one being able to predict the time of Christ’s return based on the revealing of the Antichrist.
Les
Les – I find your last statement interesting. Very few people that I have heard teach on this – if any – teach anything besides a literal 7 year tribulation, and many teach it as though it is exactly 2,556.75 days, at least in their manner of presenting.
I’ve never quite come to grips with the idea of spending exactly 7 years at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, all the while (according to some) witnessing the terrible events on earth, and then coming back to earth to reign. I’m not disputing it or arguing for it, I’m simply saying that IF that’s what God really has planned, it’s not one of the more “logical” things I see in Scripture. (Whether it’s logical or not means nothing to God, I’m just saying it doesn’t quite make sense to ME.)
Do you believe that the Tribulation period will DEFINITELY be something besides a literal 7 year period, or do you simply acknowledge the possibility that it MIGHT be something different?
Thanks
well Les, I was more going by experience and surveys on the issue of hope, than theology.
I recently conducted a survey of reformed pastors of the amount of times they preach about the second coming.
Of 30 pastors, very few taught about the second coming ever! One moderator of the presbyterian church of Australia said that in 46 years he ahd NEVER preached on the second coming. When I asked him why, he said that he had been taught the three views at theological college, and was uncomfortable about being wrong about the second coming in his teaching, so has NEVER taught or preached on that subject.
He acknowledged that he ahd deprived his congegations of hope.
My dear brother retires sometime this year at 68 years of age, still never having preached on the second coming.
Interestingly, of the group of 30 pastors, 2 were premill and taught/preached on the second coming about 5 – 10 times per year.
1 was postmillenial and taught/preached in the second coming 5 times per year on average (although he sometimes got premill guys in to do it for him).
and the others were amill.. usually touching on the second coming one sermon per year on average.
In the main, amill (here) is the view you have when you don’t have a view, or its the view you have because “reformed folk have that view”.
OK, having said all that, my purpose in stating it was that, whatever view we take on the second coming, it is the glorious hope! And unless we preach it, we deprive our congegations of hope.
Les, as a Post trib, would you please state how long you feel the tribulation period is.
The post trib view takes into account a tribulation period (“post-trib”). To not posit one merely says you are historic premill.
Steve
I am historic premil not dispensational, not reformed, holding to a 3 1/2 yr trib. I will not jam this box with my article on Daniel 9, the Reconciliation View, but I suggest you read it. Steve
Woops, I forgot to give the location of my Daniel 9 article, http://www.expressright.com/day.aspx
The rapture if you want to call it that(I prefer the word ressurection), can’t happen for at least another 27 years. May I suggest you check out the website http://www.prophecycodebook.com
In his book Prophecy Code, Jeff manty decodes the rapture using (Daniel’s week – 2520) from the prophecy of the seventy ‘sevens.’
He says the secret to understanding the return of Christ is to know that this number 2520 is a number of years as well as days. As proof he connects this number to the years of Israel’s reestablishment or the years 1897, 1948, and 1967 to the years 587, 536, and 517.
Manty uses this prophecies commencement as the key to unlocking the rapture. May I suggest you get a copy of his book you’ll love it…
hey guys… i just spent a bout a hour typing stuff on the rapture of church then i clicked submit and didnt go through and got erased lol.. so im goin to start over so im tired now but i try to mention a few things that may help…
i do beleive the church will be raptured before the tribulation starts… the church and the 144,000 jews isnt the same.
God says to us the true church that we was not appointed to wrath.
he says us the true church (phildelphia church) the ones who confessed,repented and accepted that Jesus fully paid for their sins by what he did on the cross.. not by works because salvation is a gift…. cant earner only accepted. and the ones who keep theirselves pure and holy and are always ready for him .
Jesus says he has opened a door for this church only that no man can shut..
Jesus says in isaiah 26 that for us to come into his chambers and hide FOR A LITTLE WHILE UNTIL GODS WRATH HAS PASSED i beleive he is talkin to the church here and this is the rapture of the church
i think you can see the pattern of the rapture of the church in noahs and lots day…. the ark representing Jesus raise his few chosen ones ABOVE GODS WRATH
God told Lot that he COULD NOT DO ANYTHING THERE UNTIL HE ARRIVE HERE
the rapture is also called the blessed hope and the GREAT ESCAPE
Jesus says that the church will be in the marriage of the Lamb which is during the 7 year tribulation in heaven…. then will be the the marriage supper which i think is after Jesus sets foot on the earth after tribulation…. Jesus says BLESSED ARE THOSE WHO ARE INVITED TO THE SUPPER OF THE LAMB ….. i think those invited is everybody that got saved during the tribulation for they are INVITED…. the bride( church) is actually in the marriage so she doesnt have to be invited she is the one getting married to Christ
the bible says the bride will make herself ready during the tribulation by by putting on fine linen clean and white for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints…. Jesus says at his second coming his will bring those with him that wear fine linen the righteousness of the saints….
right now Jesus is off preparing the home for his bride and when The Father sees that its ready and its time then he will tell Jesus to call on his bride until then not Jesus or the angels or us know the day or the hour for which he will call on his bride … once he calls on his bride and takes them home then the antichrist will show his face and sign the peace treaty which starts the 7 year tribulation which God gives the exact amount of days… so its possible for a man to count down from there..
I believe when John seen the vision in revelation John represents the church the church stands in heaven at that time and thats what the church sees from then on
Jesus says we are not appointed to wrath and that he will keep us from that hour .. Jesus paid a great price for his church and he will take care of them…
Jesus says that the gates of hell cannot prevail against the church.. then he says the antichrist will prevail against the elect and consume them…. the elect are all those that turn to God in tribulation.. many will lose their lives for chosen Christ
those in tribulation are saved by enduring to the end preaching the gospel and keeping thier faith
the church isnt the first to get raptured…. enoch and elijah were raptured…. the church will be raptured…. the 2 witnesses….
the rapture of the church will be silent and fast in a twinkling of an eye… Jesus will meet them in the air and only they will see him… the second coming will be loud and all will see him even the unjust….
the rapture of the church will be Jesus coming down to meet the church in the air…. the second coming angels and the saints will come with Jesus and he will actually set foot on earth at the mount of olives.
the first resurrection isnt a one time deal either…. the first resurrection is when at anytime a believer is resurrected to life ….Jesus was the first fruits ….. the second resurrection is only of the non-believers who are resurrected to recieve judgment then cast into lake of fire
matthew ch 27 vs 54 says that there were some graves that opened and they were resurrected after his resurrection
God is God he has power over everything he makes the rules and can do what he wants… if you are on his side he so anything with you at anytime he doesnt have tto answer to anybody your decision to follow him and his power and love for you can make anything happen at anytime
the main thing is to accept him as your Lord and Savior obey him … always watch for him and u will be account worthy to escape the wrath and be raptured…. whether the rapture is before tribulation or after if you arent ready you not goin to heaven….. Gods love gives those who arent completly living for him and wasnt ready a second chance. if you study these things and wasnt quite ready i promise the fear of what u will see during tribulation will cause to to turn to Gods believe and follow the truth because those who dont God will send a dillusion on those and they will remain lost because they chose not to follow the truth… YOU DO NOT WANT TO ECEPT THE MARK OF THE BEAST there is no turnging back…. accept Christ now and do his will and you wont be a part of any of this you will be in heaven and with the Lord forever ….to see God take his true church to heaven and out of wrath shows you how much he loves and cares for those who truly turn to him and love him he will bless you with great rewards …yes we dont deserve but by his love its a gift all you have to do is accept and your are takin care of
there is so much more on this but i already took up alot of space.. please comment please i enjoy studying , helping others learn the word of God.. we can both learn together
sorry for misspelling when i said God told lot HE cant do anything THERE until WE arrive here i think thats a pattern of God saying he cant do anything to the wicked until we his church arrive in heaven… which is when the hinderer is takin out of the way…… he can be talkin about the Holy Spirit but remember once you receive the Holy Spirit he will not leave u.. if he leaves then u leave with him……..also keep in mind the Holy Spirit is the third body of the God-head so he is also God and is everywhere at all times so God could be speaking of him and the church or he can be just speakin of the church…. the church is the body of Christ and way may be big and strong enough to keep the antichrist from showin his face…. but remember he is already here and working im sure yall can see this already in the world he is preparing for it now and and true believe can see this
ok guys i just found a bible verse that proves the rapture of the church..i have never read or heard of it before so i just learned about it….if you will turn to….. 1 corthians ch 15. vs. 22-23
please give your opinion on it ..you may see it different then i do.. but it says in adam we all must die but in Christ we will be made alive IN HIS OWN TURN. CHRIST, THE FIRST FRUITS, THEN WHEN HE COMES THOSE WHO BELONG TO HIM …..first fruits is the church if im not mistaking please give your opinion thanks
The biggest problem I have with the Post Trib rapture is this. According to the judgements listed in Revelation that are to come, these will be terrible times of strife and hardship unlike the world has ever known. To me it is rather obvious that we aren’t in these judgements as of yet. If the tribulation hasn’t started yet, then according to post trib theology Christ couldn’t return for at least 7 years. The bible speaks clearly of the imminent return of the Lord. The ideas of imminent return and post trib return are opposite to each other.
Mikey – If you follow that logic, you’ve still got a problem, because “the rapture” is not “the return of Christ” in the pre-millenialist position. If it is, then He’s coming back twice, and that’s where I run into a big problem.
(Just saw this discussion on the web. I would love reactions. Sarah)
PRETRIB RAPTURE – HIDDEN FACTS !
How can the “rapture” be “imminent”? Acts 3:21 says that Jesus “must” stay in heaven (He is now there with the Father) “until the times of restitution of all things” which includes, says Scofield, “the restoration of the theocracy under David’s Son” which obviously can’t begin before or during Antichrist’s reign. Since Jesus must personally participate in the rapture, and since He can’t even leave heaven before the tribulation ends, the rapture therefore cannot take place before the end of the trib! Paul explains the “times and the seasons” (I Thess. 5:1) of the catching up (I Thess. 4:17) as the “day of the Lord” (5:2) (which FOLLOWS the posttrib sun/moon darkening – Matt. 24:29; Acts 2:20) WHEN “sudden destruction” (5:3) of the wicked occurs! (If the wicked are destroyed before or during the trib, who would be left alive to serve the Antichrist?) Paul also ties the change-into-immortality “rapture” (I Cor. 15:52) to the posttrib end of “death” (15:54)! (Will death be ended before or during the trib?) If anyone wonders how long pretrib rapturism has been taught, he or she can Google “Pretrib Rapture Diehards.” Many are unaware that before 1830 all Christians had always viewed I Thess. 4’s “catching up” as an integral part of the final second coming to earth. In 1830 it was stretched forward and turned into a separate coming of Christ. To further strengthen their novel view, which the mass of evangelical scholars rejected throughout the 1800s, pretrib teachers in the early 1900s began to stretch forward the “day of the Lord” (what Darby and Scofield never dared to do) and hook it up with their already-stretched-forward “rapture.” Many leading evangelical scholars still weren’t convinced of pretrib, so pretrib teachers then began teaching that the “falling away” of II Thess. 2:3 is really a pretrib rapture (the same as saying that the “rapture” in 2:3 must happen before the “rapture” ["gathering"] in 2:1 can happen – the height of desperation!). Other Google articles throwing light on long-covered-up facts about the 178-year-old pretrib rapture view include “Famous Rapture Watchers,” “X-Raying Margaret,” “Revisers of Pretrib Rapture History,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “Wily Jeffrey,” “The Rapture Index (Mad Theology),” “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism,” “Scholars Weigh My Research,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Pretrib Rapture Desperados” and “Deceiving and Being Deceived” – all by the author of the bestselling book “The Rapture Plot” which is available at Armageddon Books online. Just my two cents’ worth. Todd
Sarah,
This is indeed a very interesting discussion. My view is in following with the 7th trumpet post-millennial view which is post-trib and pre-wrath.
Your comments are very interesting. I am wondering though if the rapture event is merely our being taken away into the heavens. This would remove a “second return”. Our predisposed assumption that “in the air” means somewhere in the stratosphere doesn’t make much sense. To meet in Him in the air doesn’t demand that he has to leave the throne. In Rev 14 Jesus is on the throne and his angels do the gathering.
This would account for our availability for the wedding feast as the wrath of God is taking it’s toll on Satan and his short lived reign on the earth. So, as you say, Jesus never leaves his throne till his final return. After the wedding feast the church returns with Jesus to setup his kingdom for the next 1000 years.
I’m just sayin’…. ?;O)
OK,
I’m a victim of my own ignorance… After reviewing Rev 14, it actually says Jesus is in the clouds but why can’t this still be metaphorical for Jesus being in the heavens?.. The angel he calls forth actually leaves the temple where we know Jesus is.
Last things… In Acts chapter 7 when Stephen is being stoned, “55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
So to look up and see Jesus in the sky does not demand that He must leave the right hand of God (The throne).
1 Thess. 4:16-17.
The passage reads as follows: “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”
According to Strongs the greek for descend in 1 Thess could be taken figuratively.
katabainō (2597) – kat-ab-ah’ee-no – καταβαίνω – From G2596 and the base of G939; to descend (literally or figuratively): – come (get go step) down descend fall (down).
The “U” turn at the rapture is not Jesus returning to heaven with the saints, but, the church returning immediately to the earth. There are many significant differences between the rapture and the return.
If the church immediately returns to the earth with glorified bodies, and the Lord destroys all unbelievers on earth, then who populates the earth during the millennium?
Well Mike, let’s look at this.
And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the Abomination of Desolation is set up, there shall be 1,290 days. (Dan. 12:11)
and
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months…. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (Rev 13:5,7)
So there will be 1,290 days from the time the Antichrist sets himself up in the temple and ends the daily sacrifices and when Jesus returns… He will only have 1,260 days where he can persecute the saints… So Jesus must take the Saints away at this time. There is a 30 day gap before the time Jesus returns to make war against the Antichrist and when he takes away the saints.
42 months is 1,260 days… 1,290 from Dan 12 minus 1,260 from Rev 13 results in 30 days
This leaves us with a gap of 30 days. I can see a couple of things that will happen during these 30 days.
1.We will be getting our resurrected bodies 1 Cor. 15:35-58
2.We will receive rewards Rev 22:12
3.There will be a wedding feast Rev 19:7
4.We will be preparing for war Rev 19:14
When Jesus returns to war with Satan all mankind is not destroyed. Only those who have taken the mark will be cast into the Pit with Satan. We will return with Jesus and under his leadership will the survivors rebuild civilization. It will take about 1000 years to accomplish this task. Scripture says that even while Jesus is ruling on the earth there will be those who still will not accept him as their Lord.
Hope this helps.
Bob ?;O)
Brad,
1 Corinthians 15:22-23 (New International Version)
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
Jesus is the firstfruits… This scripture actually says those who belong to him will follow next. It only mentions one coming.
Mikey,
How many times in scripture have praying people suffered? Did God take Job? How about Daniel? … nope he had to wait it out with the lions. Shadrach Meshach and Abednego? Nope, in the fire they went. Jesus? How about the early Christians? Why did He not rapture them to prevent them from being impaled, burned alive and fed to tigers? I know the list is longer but God’s inaction does not mean that he isn’t presently doing away with suffering forever. In fact He is, through his son Jesus. We who are in Him share in His suffering and will also share in His glory when He returns for us. Rom 8:17, 2 Chor 1:7; 1 Pet 5:1
What do I know? I’m merely a man. So pray for the pre-trib and prepare for the post. If it is pre, are we truly ready? I don’t wish to be divisive.
Bob ?;O)
I use to love these discussions, but after a while I got bored with the whole thing. I use to be a dispensational premil. but then I read the Bible and realized that I couldn’t really support what I was believing, and soon became a historical premil.
I believe the church will go through the tribulation. Those that like to quote Rom. 8:1 you don’t understand part of what is going on in the tribulation. Yes God’s wrath will be poured out but not on his own. Rev. 13 tells us that the beast will make war against the saints and will overcome them. That is a scary piece scripture. The wrath we will endure will be Satan’s as he seeks to wipe the church (a.k.a. saints) off the face of the planet.
This discussion is a lot less stressful than the Predestination\freewill debate. Lol
Obob
Obob,
Yes the church will suffer under the hands of the Antichrist but only because he can’t get his hands on the Jews. There is one hope… The letters to the seven churches are there to tell us what God expects of the church in the end days… There is an open door of protection outlined to the church of Philidelphia. We are also told to run for hills when the Antichrist declares himself as God in the temple… It is directly after this that he wages war against the saints. We know there will be some of us who will be martyred but there will be some who find God’s protection as well… Who else will be praying for God’s justice and mercy?
I much rather discuss this with brothers than agnostics…
Bob ?;O)
A few random thoughts after reading some of these posts. First, when using the flood as a comparison(or type) think of Noah as a type of Israel. He was protected through the judgement. The world is a type of the world, and they died in the judgement. Think of Enoch as a type of the church, he was taken out way in advance, which also indicates imminency. Notice Enoch was one guy taken out. The church is one body. If two were taken out(Enoch and a friend) the type wouldn’t fit.
On Bob’s comment “run to the hills” Matt 24:16 says let those who are in Judaea flee, not California. The area where Petra is will be the only place not controlled by the anti Christ. That’s why if you’re not in Judaea there’s no place to run.
If anyone is having trouble with what they believe about being post or pre, do a study on Israelology and ecclesiology. This might clear some things up for you. The Jews are saints in the OT, so making war with the saints does not have to be the church. As you can see I don’t believe in replacement theology. Paul taught “blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.” Two groups.
I feel so lucky to be predestined… Bill
Forgot one other point. I realize it is easy to say the bible doesn’t specifically say the second coming is in two phases. But try telling an Orthodox Jew the Messiah will come twice in the first place. You won’t get far with it. The bible to my knowledge never mentions a second coming. It says he will come again, but it’s not specific. In the OT they had trouble seeing two comings, maybe we have trouble seeing two phases… Bill
Bill,
I agree with you on all counts. As far as being told to “run to the hills”, The church has historically taken Jesus’s statement that we were to be a witness to Jerusalem, Judea and the utmost parts of the earth as a reference to locality… Such as City, Country, the world…
You MIGHT be correct and Petra may be the hold-out as you suggest but it is not unreasonable that Jesus was using Judea as a point of reference of locality and this could apply to all believers in all places. It is just as plausible and I wouldn’t discount it.
The scripture is clear that the Antichrist will be at war with the saints and he will step up his activity once he sets himself up as god in the temple. This his whole point in having people take the mark… To identify those who aren’t his. It is reasonable to believe that most Christians will have to hide to survive.
Bob ?;O)
Bob, I have to admit I am a little torn between two opinions on the survivability of the tribulation, but I lean towards not. I confess I am a literalist in every case possible. Rev 13:15 says “… so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.” That sounds like everyone (except some of the Jews). That wouldn’t be much of a resurrection after the tribulation. I have heard a few end times teachers point out some OT passages that suggest that OT saints are not raised until after the Millennium. Sounded like a weird thought to me, but maybe that’s why Rev 19 doesn’t have any resurrection mentioned in it when the Lord returns in judgement.
Again, I wouldn’t completely count out survivability, but if you look at where technology is right now, and where it will be in 20 years(if the tribulation has not happened yet), I personally think the anti-Christ will be able to find anyone on Earth with the stroke of a key on his desk. Scary. Bill
Bill,
Even if we both agree to take things literally some of our preconceptions tend to lend us over to an interpretation… It’s inevitable.
Today’s terrorists have learned they can hide if they don’t use technology. This is how they are detected when they use cell phones, internet, ect… There is allot of places people can hide if they are willing to live old tech. They still can’t find that Bin Lauden guy (If he is still alive).
Then there’s that pesky letter to the Philadelphians… They are promised an open door of protection where they would be saved from the trials to come upon the earth… Granted there will be martyrs but there will be pockets of God’s mercy.
Rev 13:15 says “… so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.”
This is truly at the apex of the antichrist’s reign which will be ended by Jesus’s return just for the purpose of saving the saints. Satan will have 42 months to find and kill the elect.
Then there’s Matthew 24:22 “And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.” So Jesus will return JIT to prevent the very thing you suggest.
On any account, the thing to look forward to and prepare ourselves for is the Kingdom. We are promised shared leadership with Jesus… How can we not be there during the Millennium? One only has to read the letters to the seven churches to know this is the very thing He is promising us.
IMHO,
Bob ?;O)
Bob,
what I actually had in mind in not being able to escape the anti-christ was something similar to heat sensing technology that we have now. And, if the mark of the beast includes an implanted chip, which it probably will, it may be easy to tell who has it and who doesn’t. If they see a heat signal on a screen of some guy hiding in the bushes, they know he doesn’t have the mark, and he’s as good as dead. Might sound kind of Star Trek-ish, but it doesn’t sound far fetched to me.
You asked the question “how can we not be there for the millennium?” As a pre trib guy, I expect to be here for the millennium, wouldn’t want to miss it. I was under the impression the main difference between pre and post was when we go up, not when we come down. If that makes sense. Have you heard pre trib people saying they would not be here for the millennium, or is that a misunderstanding you had? Just curious… Bill
No worries Bill, I was responding to your comment about those you mentioned that said we wouldn’t be taken until after the Mellennium… But now that I think of it, I did misunderstand you… I keep forgetting about those amillenialists… They truly bug me.
OK, well you do have me mixed. I thought you were a Post-trib guy so you don’t believe you will be here during the tribulation. OK, no worries, we agree to disagree… I can’t speculate on the technology or how it would or could be used but I do see what the scriptures say and Jesus makes it clear that He would return before the saints could be wiped out. That settles it for me.
Pre or Post we need to be aware that the letters to the seven churches are meant to help us prepare for His return… It is also clear that Jesus expects us to be vigilant for his return… Speculating as to when He actually will return is fun but we miss the mark if we are not preparing as if it could be any moment.
Bob ?;O)
For those who deem themselves shockproof I would like to recommend that they read “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty” on the “Powered by Christ Ministries” website. Nigel
Jesus’ prayer in John 17 sheds interesting light on the Pre vs Post-Trib discussion…
15 “I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one…
20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; ”
Can you say, “Amen, Jesus”?
; )
-Tom Volker
Jesus’ prayer in John 17 sheds interesting light on the Pre vs Post-Trib discussion…
15 “I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one…”
20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; ”
Can you say, “Amen, Jesus”?
; )
-Tom
Tom, John 17:12 says “none of them is lost, except the son of perdition”. The context of John 17 looks like he is praying specifically for the 12 disciples.
Bill,
You totally missed verse 20… “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; ”
That would be all of us who came to Jesus by way of hearing the testimony of His disciples (i.e. the New Testament).
But more importantly, the precedent of the Lord leaving His people here to witness and minister to the lost even at great peril was established from the very beginning. We, the Church, are to “share in the suffering of Christ” (2 Corinthians 1:5; 1 Peter 4:12-19, etc.)
And the fact remains, our Lord Jesus clearly says WHEN He will return for His elect- “immediately after the tribulation of those days.” (Matt. 24:29-31).
Blessings!
-Tom
Tom, if I read this in plain chronological order, it looks as if he is talking about the 12. Then, in verse 20 I see the word “but”. He shifts his focus to others. In verse 15 it says “I do not ask You to take them out of the world”. Well, at some point , even if you are post trib, you believe the rapture will happen right? It sounds here like the people he is talking about will never be taken out. Of course, eventually they left the world through death.
I always hear from post trib folks that we pretirbbers think that God will leave the world with no witness in the tribulation. I don’t personally know any pretribbers who believe that. There are the 144,000, all the people that get saved through their ministry, Moses and Elijah, and the angel that flies through the heavens preaching the everlasting gospel. (Rev 14:6)
Thanks for getting me to read, and re-read John 17 though. But, stepping back and looking at this chapter, the theme is really unity, not eschatology in my opinion.
Bill
PS, as far as the church sharing in the suffering of Christ, Christians have always suffered and been killed. Millions were killed in the reformation. Christians are dying in India right now. But even John the apostle was not killed. I don’t think my relationship with Christ needs to be validated by being killed for it. Lots of Christians here in the US have lived and died, and never been beaten. I think their Christian experience is just as valid.
Bill
All of this is academic… The fact is that there is no CLEAR teaching of a pre-trib rapture of the church in the Bible… One has to read between the lines to come up with this doctrine which for any other issue of any significance would be considered wrong. The pre-trib doctrine violates hermetical principle. Simply put, unclear scriptures must give way to those that are clear. Paul is quite clear in his understanding that Jesus’ return would occur after the tribulation and after the 7th trumpet.
In claiming the pre-trib another hermeneutical principle must be violated. Doctrine can not hinge on one verse of scripture. If it is a doctrine of the church it is found consistently in scripture. Simply because “one is left in the field and another is taken away” is neither clear in it’s context nor is there any other scripture outside of this that can allude to a secret rapture. It is utter nonsense.
Sorry but this is a dogmatic issue that won’t go away by simply arguing. Those who believe it will defend it even in the light of the truth of scripture. Unfortunately, as Doctor William Bell used to always say, the doctrine has be murdered by “an angry gang of facts.”
Fortunately for us all, our salvation does not hinge on His return… Perhaps our hope does.
In love with Jesus,
Bob ?;O)
Hi Bill and Bob,
The joy of this exchange is we have instant fellowship even as we seem to disagree.
But if you think we are miles apart, check out the Amillenial discussion about the “sign of the coming of the Son of Man” found here [ http://www.puritanboard.com/f46/matthew-24-sign-christs-coming-38095/ ].
Blessings!
-Tom
I have to respond to the seventh trumpet idea, it’s just too juicy. I’ve heard this a lot. Paul called it the “last trump”. The phrase he used was something his readers in that day were used to. It was a military trumpet that was used to call a soldier home at the end of his duty. It is a good concept for the rapture as well. After the church is done fighting the good fight, we will hear the “last trump” calling us home. The seventh trumpet will not even be the last, because there are trumpets blown in the kingdom as well.
As far as “one will be taken” goes, some have used that to describe the rapture, but I don’t believe that. I believe that is a judgement at the second coming where the angels remove the wicked from the Earth so the only believers go into the Millennium. If you cross reference the parables of the tares, and the dragnet, it fits.
Another can of worms is imminency. It only makes sense for a pre trib rapture.
Too Juicy? If the Holy Spirit is the author of scripture (and He is) then the event is in complete harmony with Revelation at the seventh trumpet. The tares and the wheat on the other hand can only refer to the final judgment at the end of the millennium.
Regarding immanency… I doubt the verdict is as sure as you make it. The heart of Jesus telling us to be ready deals with the human nature to procrastinate. If we expect Jesus to return any moment then we will not be caught unaware when He returns… The thief, Satan, will not rob us of our inheritance. Jesus is not the thief in the night. Satan is. If we are caught unaware then we will suffer loss. The word imminent does not actually occur in scripture.
So, tit for tat… I doubt this can be settled in theses forums. One thing is for sure… He is returning and we need to be prepared for any eventuality, pre or post.
In love with Jesus,
Bob ?;O)
Bill,
You mentioned that the wheat and the tares referred to the believers being caught up and the wicked being removed. From my understanding the wicked (those with the mark) will be physically destroyed as Jesus marches across the planet with the saints. They will be destroyed by the army of Christ and the bowels of God’s wrath will be poured out on the earth utterly smashing the infrastructure of the Antichrist to pieces.
Those who aren’t killed by Christ’s army will be destroyed by 100lb hailstones. Ouch! This is the meaning of the reference to the blood rising bridle high and 200 miles. This picture gives us an understanding of the human casualties of Jesus war against the Antichrist. This whole process from Jesus returning in the sky to his taking hold of the throne in Zion will take 30 days.
The unaffiliated (Those without the mark and who have not received Christ) will rise from the rubble and the glorified saints will rule with Jesus over them for 1000 years.
Bob ?;O)