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Sanctify Sunday Again
Posted by Cyle Clayton in Uncategorized
“I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,” (Revelation 1:10 ‘ NKJV)
Could it be that unregenerate America’ ambivalence toward and confusion about Christianity is related to the ambivalence of Christians toward foundational Christian practices like going to church on Sunday morning? When a non-Christians identifies a church, in virtually every instance he will identify a building. When a non-Christian wants to go to church, in virtually every instance he will think about doing so on Sunday morning. Yet, as Christians make attempts to reach non-Christians, there is an increasing movement away from church buildings and away from Sunday morning worship services. Like it or not, going to a church building on Sunday morning is the most easily recognizable act of Christianity in the American culture. Should we abandon it, or should we build upon it?
Greater theologians than I can argue the pros and cons and traditions of worshiping on the Lord’s Day. Many amateur theologs have argued that the command in Hebrews 10:25 to not forsake “the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some,” does not apply. I have yet to meet an unattached Christian making the kind of impact for the kingdom that those do who are attached to a local body of believers. I think it does apply to gathering together with a local body of believers, constituted in a New Testament fashion with Biblically qualified leaders and Biblically defined goals.
Sundays at the lake, on the ballfield, and in the deer blind are not what God had in mind for His chosen, peculiar people. Is it wrong to have a Saturday worship service? No, it’s not. It’s not forbidden, but is it really an effective way to make disciples? I didn’t write this to argue against Saturday, Friday, or any other day worship. I simply want to call attention to some facts.
First, beginning before the completion of the canon, worship on Sunday became a matter of course for the church. Second, for the past 2000 years, worship on Sunday has been the matter of course. It has transcended virtually every culture for the past 2,000 years. Third, Sunday morning worship is the most easily identifiable Christian icon in our culture.
Now for strict opinion (as if the rest of the article has not been). We ought to do everything we can to resist the devaluation of gathering together in a local church body to worship God on the Lord’s Day (Sunday). We ought to do that because it’s what we do. We ought to do that because it was one of the first things we did, and it is one of the last things we do that distinguish us from the culture. We ought to do that because it’s who we are. The resurrection defines us. We celebrate deer season, turkey season, football season, thanksgiving and Christmas seasons with ritualistic fervor. We should celebrate the resurrection every Sunday morning, on the same day of the week Jesus rose. We ought to sanctify Sunday again.
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Brother Cyle,
I 100% agree.
Blessings,
Tim
I’ll probably get in trouble with CB Scott here if I’m not careful…
I fully believe that Sunday is the day we should primarily worship. I believe that all Christians who CAN worship on Sunday should choose that day.
Our cultural direction makes it such that MANY dedicated, sincere Christians are unable to attend Sunday morning worship services. I think it’s very valid for churches that have the opportunity to witness to restaurant workers, law enforcement agents, emergency workers, medical personnel, and, for goodness sake, even RETAIL workers, to have full-blown, sincere, worship services and preaching at other times than just 11AM Sunday morning. A LOT of people work all night Saturday night. I think it’s great to offer church at 4PM on Sunday for folks like that.
I think we need an emphasis on worship services, period. Working to reestablish Sunday as a special day is very good, but it’s somewhat of a different issue, in my way of seeing things.
I rarely eat out on Sunday. Some call me a legalist, I’m sure, but I have a very good reason. Many of my fellow Christians complain about food-service people skipping church on Sunday because they “have to work”. I find it incredibly hypocritical to say things like that and then run to the nearest diner at 12:35 to consume food that was prepared by people who had to work instead of going to church. I wish those people could have come to church! Likewise Walmart, Kmart, etc. Is it fair for me to say “I don’t work on Sunday so that I can go to church and honor the Sabbath” then promptly show up at someone else’s workplace during that time? Now, in some cases, I violate my own rule. I usually have an excuse, but I always realize that I’m breaking my personal standard for “Sunday”. Does my “standard” make any difference in the culture around me? No, but if ALL Christians were to think that way, I suspect that fewer restaurants would need to be open on Sunday.
Notice that I didn’t say we should make a law that restaurants and stores be closed on Sunday. I see no reason to compel an unbeliever to abide by my rules. But I do think Christians could make a difference if we REALLY lived what we say we believe about this issue.
Just my thoughts,
Bernard
Cyle, “Should we abandon it, or should we build upon it?”
Sanctify and build upon it. Terrific post Especially like your summarizing paragraph of opinion!
Bernard: you need to write a post on this, brother! Good stuff! I can’t tell you how often I’ve felt guilty for eating out or shopping for some item and had the thoughts that you just gave here. Am I contributing to the possibility of just “one” person from hearing the Word and growing in their faith?
As a side note: many waiters and waitresses say they cringe on Sunday mornings when they are scheduled to work because that is the day they receive the most complaints and the least in tips for their services. And they attribute it to “those church people.” Sad testimony for we “ambassadors”. selahV
Hey Cyle,
Unlike Tim, I tend to disagree. I wouldn’t say I 100% disagree though. Mainly because I sense that there are some hidden presuppositions in your post that are not necessary.
My first reason is that not everyone agrees that Sunday is a special day. I think Paul makes this most clear in Romans 14: “One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.”
Secondly, your connection with “amateur theologs” who believe “that the command in Hebrews 10:25 to not forsake ‘the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some,’ does not apply” with “unattached christians” is potentially a false dilemma. For instance, I believe that Hebrews 10:25 does not only apply to meeting on Sunday mornings. I believe, in context, Paul describes what it means to “forsake the assembling” in the context. Those who forsake the assembling are those who meet and do not “encourage one another” or “consider one another” whether they are meeting on Sunday morning or not. So the act of “not meeting” on Sunday is not forsaking the assembling. But someone could meet every Sunday and forsake the assembling.
Third, you said, “Sundays at the lake, on the ballfield, and in the deer blind are not what God had in mind for His chosen, peculiar people.” That is a bit scary to me. Are you sure God did not have that in mind? What if I went to the ballfield on Sunday morning with all the sinners and was able to share the love of God with them? Start discipling them? etc. Jesus use to do things like that… hang out with sinners. By the way, which do you think is better. Hold a meeting on Sunday morning in hopes that some lost people come, or go to the lost people and serve them where they are?
Fourth, some may consider Sunday the “Lord’s Day,” but they need to remember, “This is the day which the LORD has made; Let us rejoice and be glad in it.”
Basically I think our attachment to Sunday mornings can be a little extreme. It is not wrong to meet on Sundays – but I do not think Jesus would want us bickering about it – or thinking less those followers who meet on other days instead.
God’s Glory,
Lew A
LEW, welcome to IMPACT!, you make some very valid arguments here with your scripture references and the points following. Appreciate your input. I would hope we wouldn’t be bickering about or EVER thinking less of those followers who meet on other days instead of Sunday.
My son-in-law meets in a tent sometimes on Sundays when he takes his son to motocross races. Nascar provides a worship time for their racers. Often we find our established churches offering church for those in areas where they may not be able to have church. So I sure do hope our prayers are a sweet fragrance to the Lord in the fields as well as the steepled-graced buildings throughout the world.
Perhaps I misunderstood my brother, Cyle, but knowing what little I know of him, I think he would rejoice with any heart that is lifted to the Lord on any day of the week in whatever assembly is offered. I didn’t see the “hidden presuppositions” and I do hope since you’ve exposed them, that Cyle will help us see his point in them or, at least, give his account of your perception of them.
Great thoughts. Worth dialoging. selahV
Hi Cyle. Thanks for the post. I’m hesitant to accept your grounding for such an argument.
You say:
“When a non-Christian wants to go to church, in virtually every instance he will think about doing so on Sunday morning. Yet, as Christians make attempts to reach non-Christians, there is an increasing movement away from church buildings and away from Sunday morning worship services.”
My concern is that this appears to support a faulty understanding of the church’s relationship to unbelievers. Are we really supposed to wait for them to come to the Sunday morning meetings? Where does Scripture support inviting non-believers to weekly meetings on Sunday morning?
I actually think this point defeats your argument. It is, in fact, biblical and extremely healthy for Christian’s to move away from church buildings and away from Sunday morning worship services if your goal is to reach the lost.
If you’re going to argue for Sunday morning worship, I don’t think I’d support it with reaching the lost.
I am certainly all for Sunday worship. Sunday morning is our most important gathering in my church … though we do meet in homes on Sunday evenings, and in various places throughout the week (“unofficial” meetings).
But …
Clye, you said, “Like it or not, going to a church building on Sunday morning is the most easily recognizable act of Christianity in the American culture.”
But that makes me ask the question, “What is the ‘American’ culture? Frankly, I don’t think we know what that looks like anymore. If anything, the U.S. has become so unchurched that, in many places, Sunday is no longer associated with church … people don’t even really know what church “is,” or what it’s for.
Fifteen years ago, when I lived in the Memphis area, Sunday morning was already a primary time slot for children’s athletic leagues. And that was in the deep south … fifteen years ago.
I quite agree that your premise rings true in most of our small-town, southern community environments. We can still hear the ringing of church bells most days. There IS a church on every corner. Most of the people still have a connection to one church or another, whether they actually attend or not. But that is not the case (I don’t believe) on a continental basis. In fact, I think it’s far from it.
In my own small, southern town I have members who cannot attend church on Sunday because of work schedules. I carry a burden of guilt that we are not ministering to their needs. I think our “culture” (whatever it is now) has changed dramatically. We, as the church, must adapt with it … lest we end up in the same place of cultural irrelevance as the church in other western cultures (i.e. most of Europe).
Anyhow … those are my thoughts. On a side note – one of my favorite ways to sanctify Sunday as a day of rest in my home is to take a long, luxurious nap with my wife and my new dog, Max. There’s nothing quite like it!
I am not a sabbatarian. However, I am a supporter of the notion that “one day in seven for rest” is not a suggestion, but a duty of God’s peculiar people as a sign, a witness, and a difference between ourselves and the world. The 4th command from the Decalogue makes it fairly plain as to God’s moral imperative “Honor the sabbath day and keep it Holy.” This command was not only to the Jews, but even falls back to us – the first instance of ‘the day of rest’ is not from Exodus, but from Genesis as one of God’s creative acts. The early Christians set aside the first day of the week to commemorate the resurrection, rather than keeping the Jewish sabbath that commemorated the passover.
Our great-grandfathers had a different perspective of Sunday than obviously we do. We read in Laura Ingalls Wilder “Little House on the Prairie” one such story of how those Christians in early America viewed observance of Sunday as a day of rest and worship. If you have church minutes older than 100 years, you might see some instances where church discipline was used to encourage compliance of the day of worship to those who decided that planting or harvesting were more important than observance of the day.
Of course today we have folks who miss church on Sunday because of family re-unions, birthday parties, hunting trips, and the like. Our young people are not encouraged in keeping faith with Jesus and his church in the pulpit or at home, and are often forced by the spirit of the age to seek employment which will cause them to work on Sunday.
Before 1949, most NFL games were held on Saturday, in deference to believers and the spirit of that day which even though was not Christian, certainly complemented those things which were taught in church. No more. Shucks, if a church has a Sunday night service on Super Bowl night, there will be those in Sunday School who will invite others to a “Super Bowl” party at their home in defiance of Sunday night services. What you have there is of course the faithful few gathering together to worship the King of Kings while the world (including a lot of Christians it seems) worshiping a false god, all the while eating corn chips and buffalo wings.
It has been a while since I posted last. I will not do so often, but wanted to weigh in on this needy post.
Rob
In Rom. 14, Paul wrote, “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one sould be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord…For none of us lives to himself alone, and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord.”
I agree with the Sabbath principle that one day of the week should be set aside for rest and contemplation on the Lord. My Sabbath (rest) is certainly not Sunday; I have chosen Friday. Sunday is an extremely busy day for me so I do not consider it my day of rest.
I choose to worship on Sunday because of the points Cyle made about the New Testament church worshipping on “the Lord’s Day.” Sunday is a day of commemoration of the resurrection of Christ and thus, has been the traditional day of worship for Christians.
However, we are living in a post-Christian culture. More people do not attend worship services than do in the USA. I want to reach the unchurched and lost. If I have to do that by doing something somewhat non-traditional, such as offering a Friday night service, or planting house churches, then that is what I will do.
If I had my druthers, we’d all go back to the 1950s when the “blue law” was in effect, however, that’s not going to happen. Therefore, we work among the culture of our times and seek to bring to salvation as many as we can.
Les
Bernard:
I like your thoughts. I have often wondered (felt guilty?) about adding to the Sunday retail establishment. I also have several guys in my church that work at the local power plant; I’m not sure I can help them much!
All:
I wonder if our emphasis is in the wrong place. Is the emphasis a Sunday morning church building gathering (don’t get me started on the church building thing) or is it a gathering together of believers to worship. I think the problem that we face is the individualistic entertainment of busyness that our entire culture seems to be engulfed in. This is a real problem in the NW. We don’t have a church going culture.
Maybe, more folks would come on Sundays if what we offer them is more compelling than the alternatives. (We all know that it is!) I’m not talking about pragmatic entertainment. They can get that at the deer stand, lake or ball field.
Now, so my comment doesn’t get to long…what is it that we offer Joe Unbeliever, Carl Carnal, or Naomi Nominal that is more compelling than the alternatives? I’m not being stupid, let’s really think this through.
Keith Price
Brother Cyle,
My baggage I brought to agreement with you 100% may have sent this stream in a different direction. :>) However, I do want to help your readers to reflect on a statement that you have said.
You said: “Like it or not, going to a church building on Sunday morning is the most easily recognizable act of Christianity in the American culture.” It seems that many are missing the sentences before that one. “When a non-Christians identifies a church, in virtually every instance he will identify a building. When a non-Christian wants to go to church, in virtually every instance he will think about doing so on Sunday morning.”
With that in mind, it seems that you are asking us to examine our practice. I would have to agree, once again 100%, that if we examine the practice and ask what is ingrained we will come to that conclusion. It is sunday AM that many lost people will decide to attend Church, and it is to the church that people flock in times of crisis.
Blessings,
Tim
Keith – It appears you are coming from a viewpoint that says “It’s good for unbelievers to come to church”. There are those who say that the church should not try to be, indeed should try to NOT be, compelling to unbelievers because to do so is to violate Scripture. They would maintain that our purpose is to present the Gospel in it’s harshest, rawest, least consumer-friendly form and avoid all methods of generating “compelling interest”. In other words, we shouldn’t try to compete with the alternatives that the world offers.
I personally feel we have a responsibility to draw unbelievers in, and I am personally a “bit” seeker-friendly in that I believe that the church has a responsibility to become culturally relevant.
Having services at different times and different days is a modern “approach” to dealing with cultural relevance regarding the fact that Sunday morning is “inconvenient” for many. Even impossible. As you mention, though, the main cultural problem we have is that we do NOT have a church-going culture.
In order to promote a “church-going culture”, where does the Bible encourage us to “go” with our “way of doing church”? Are we “being like the world” if we move our services to convenient times and days? Should we stand firm on “we’re the church, when you’re ready to do it our way, let us know!” Can we be “more compelling” without compromise? Can we discuss hell without being accused of fear-mongering? Can we NOT discuss hell in some contexts without being accused of watering down the gospel?
On top of that, how much of this is pure evidence of us taking too much on ourselves and not trusting in the Holy Spirit to guide us and convict unbelievers?
Just trying to think this through with you
Tim … you only said three words. How could that change the direction? I think you’re overestimating the wright of those bags.
I think this discussion is excellent and absolutely on target.
You said, “It is Sunday AM that many lost people will decide to attend Church…” I guess things must be different in my environment. I don’t discern that we have all that many lost folk pondering the church attendance question/issue each Sunday.
I think much of this conversation boils down to, “What is the purpose of worship services?” Is it for outreach to the unbeliever or the edification of the saints? I think, biblically, it’s primary purpose is the latter. Lost people who “wander through the doors” are a bit of a “bonus” in my view. I think the church needs to cease placing all of its outreach “apples” in the Sunday morning basket. We need to actually BE the church the other six days of the week and then fill the churches with the lost who have been won through daily ministry.
Anyhow … a bit of a tangent, I know. But I think the spot where we are missing one another’s points is this very idea of the premise itself. It may even be a matter of “worldview,” in general.
Great discussion, though. I’m looking forward to checking in throughout the day.
Thanks for the discussion. I’d like to challenge anyone to ask a lost person how to find a church, and see what that person says. If I were a betting man, I’d wager large sums of money that they would point to a building. I’d then challenge anyone to ask a lost person when people go to church. Again, I’d wager that the vast majority would say, Sunday morning. Ok, that’s on the “reaching the lost” side.
On the other side, let me add this. I don’t think that reaching the lost is the primary goal of the church or of observing the Lord’s Day. I think worship, rest, and making disciples is. I think that the loss of the sanctity of Sunday morning has more to harm the church than to reach the lost. I think that we sometimes should not give in to the culture, but should stand out from it.
Let me use the travel ball culture as an example. How many people actually play travel ball every weekend for the glory of God and to reach the lost? How many play travel ball every weekend because they would rather play ball than be part of what their local church is doing?
P.S.
When I was a kid, the pastors fought the repeal of the Blue Laws that kept stores closed on Sunday. Finally Christians gave up the fight, laws were changed, and our culture changed. Christians changed right along with it. Rather than refusing to work on Sunday, they started working on Sunday. That was 35 years ago. In those 35 years, has the church in America grown or shrunk? I realize that’s extremely anecdotal, but it is, perhaps, telling.
Brother Geoff,
I do not want to come across that my words carry weight like a EF Hutton. (You have to be old enough to remember the commercials to get the point):>)
Let me just say that the point Brother Cyle makes is a valid one. When will a lost person attend church? If he is lost and feels a need, which we all know is the drawing of the Holy Spirit, to attend a worship service, will he prepare for a Friday evening or Sunday morning? I agree that lost people are not clamoring at the doors to get in at the church I pastor on Sunday morning. However, I do hear many testimonies from those that have services on Saturday evening telling us that it was like a Best Buys on Black Friday at 5am either.
I think that there is something to understanding that people, looking for a church, are not going to look first at the local middle school and they are not going to plan on Wednesday evening that come Saturday night, I am going to church.
Blessings,
Tim
What’s “travel ball?”
Bernard:
I believe we are on the same page. Your statement “more compelling without compromise” is really good. (I’ll try and remember to give you credit for it when I use it!) So what does this look like?
Geoff:
“We need to actually BE the church the other six days of the week and then fill the churches with the lost who have been won through daily ministry.”
Amen. Maybe I would change the word “churches” to “buildings.”
Travel ball is club sports. They travel and play in tournaments, mostly on Sundays.
Cyle:
They play “travel ball” because it is more compelling than what their local church is doing. Or maybe it could be that in their current state of their relationship with God, “travel ball” is more compelling.
Keith,
I like the fact that you said it could be that their current relationship state with God makes travel ball more compelling than church.
It used to be that when people didn’t go to church, we said they were sinners. It seems that we are much more likely now to say that their sin is legitimized by church’s that are imperfect, thus uncompelling.
My Dad spent 44 years of his adult life at the lake on Sunday, or on the hunt, at work, or in the bed. When he repented and was born again, he spent the rest of his life wanting desperately to go to church and to be the church everywhere he went (even though he was the first to point out his own church’s problems). He had Pulmonary Fibrosis that kept him from church much of his last two years of life. He was raised by a Baptist preacher, had been a funeral director for 45 years, and had seen all the worst that the local church and professing Christians had to offer. I never once heard him blame the church for his failure to follow Christ all those years.
Cyle:
Great story. If you haven’t already, it sounds like the basis for a good post!
Cyle – “We said they were sinners.”
Wow. The days of Appalachian church in the 50s and 60s.
But were we really addressing why they weren’t in church?
Churches were imperfect then, too.
I believe the point is being missed here altogether. While the “day of rest” has been given by the gracious hand of God to all humanity, it has been left in the hands of believers to practice the moral imperative of the 4th commandment as an example for the world to notice. “Why do those Christians insist on not working or playing ball on Sunday morning?” “Because in their lives devotion to Christ and His church is more important to them than all of those other things.” – i.e. the connection between the 1,2, and 3rd Commandment to the 4th.
Yes, the “church” is not a building, it is a people – redeemed, called out, forgiven, and changed for good works. We meet in one location (and post the times of meeting) so that all will know that while we are gathered in that place we will preach, teach, encourage, lift up and praise God and each other – and if anyone is searching for answers, then we are there to provide answers, and certainly point to the One who has all of the answers for their lives as He by His grace has provided them and continues to provide to us.
The problem of today of course is that a lot of modern Christians have desired to retreat and withdrawal from those things our fathers and grandfathers understood as true because it is viewed as “culturally irrelevant”. Did the Christian folk 75 years ago truly have it wrong? Did they really live in a “different” culture from the one we live in today? Did they misintepret the same scripture we read and obey in their stance toward the Lord’s Day? Did not they struggle with those they were reaching who saw them as kooky and backward for doing the things they did?
There are some who believe that it is culturally inappropriate to call believers from a world of faithlessness into a world of faithfulness. That God truly has no power to bring His faithful follower into a job that will take care of their needs without working on all of Sunday (save for those whose job is to minister on Sunday). That He has not graciously provided six other days to do with as we want, then to honor Him with the seventh. That children, if not allowed to play in sports, will be abjectly uncivilized unless parents give in to going on games on Sunday morning. I am sorry, but most of these are just plain lies, provided from hell itself. And yet how many pastors and teachers gloss over the 4th Commandment as irrelevant and immaterial for today? We might as well start telling some folks that adultery is okay between consenting adults(7th), and murder is appropriate in most circumstances (6th).
A few years back I was setting in a restaurant for Sunday lunch. I recognized the waitress as one of my youth of whom I had not seen for several weeks. As she was serving my family, I told her that we missed her, and why she had been absent?(duh!) She looked around the room and as I looked with her I noticed many people in Sunday attire – obviously church people. She looked back and said “I have been serving you.” This broke my heart. My pride and unwillingness to submit to God’s purpose had now enslaved one of my youth into a priority of dining service instead of Christ service. I determined from that point on that having crock potted roast beef at home for Sunday dinner was by far and away superior than being a hypocrite, and placing one of my young lambs in servitude outside of our family gathering serving meals rather than receiving nurturing spiritual food for her soul so that she could “walk and not faint”.
Rob
As I understand it, a good part of the “seeker-service” model (a la Willow Creek, Saddleback, et al) is predicated on the assumption that when lost people go to church they go on Sunday morning. For a good part of history in the USA (and some other places), up until quite recently, that has indeed been the case. You have been able to assume there are enough people out there who are open to going to church at least once on a Sunday morning. And then, if they come, and they like it, there is a good chance they will come back. And, if they come back enough, they will be exposed to enough of the Gospel, that eventually it will break through to their heart.
On the surface, this is, for the most part, a good theory. My experience in Western Europe, though, has been that that line of thinking pretty much falls flat on its face. People may go to mass on Sunday. Very few even do that. But people do not walk into a Protestant church on Sunday morning just because they are feeling nostalgic, or because someone invites them to come along. It is a major social barrier to cross the door into a typical Protestant/Evangelical worship service. It would be about the same as one of us going to a Mormon service next Sunday, just out of curiosity, or spiritual hunger. It’s just not likely to happen.
Yeah, yeah, that’s Europe, and this is America. But, I see that American culture is becoming more and more like European culture very fast.
My point is, if we are going to continue to reach the unreached and unchurched in America, we cannot put all of our eggs, or even the main eggs, in the basket of Sunday morning worship.
I do believe in Sunday morning worship, because it is a good habit, that provides a healthy routine, in the positive sense of the word, and has been the tradition of Christians down through history. I think the fact that Jesus rose on Sunday, and there is precedent in the NT church for meeting on Sunday, is also worthy to be taken into account. If we didn’t have a set worship time and pattern, we would too easily drift into laziness, and neglect, in our “one another” lifestyle as the local expression of Christ’s Body.
But, if we are really serious about reaching unchurched people in America today, we need to have a lot of other “lines in the water” beyond just Sunday morning worship.
I find myself with a multitude of responses to this post and the resulting thread. I think for the moment I’ll confine myself to one, and try to get the others into a post on my own blog.
I wonder if we’ll still at times succumbing to the search for cookie-cutter ‘universal, reproducible methods’ (that was brought up in the House Church thread). There are indeed some who will end up looking for a church meeting and will expect to find it Sunday morning. There are also some who will never darken the door of a church as a first step and will need to be reached in other ways. The church overall has to be prepared to reach both.
And the balance isn’t always necessarily found within one local church. There may be times where one local church is going to be geared to provide a more culturally ‘traditional’ approach and another is going to be geared to reach those who won’t be reached by the traditional approach. I suspect that the Enemy snickers when the two end up sniping at each other or regarding each other as competitors rather than cooperating. There are times to extend “the right hand of fellowship, that we might go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcision” (Gal 2:9b) (although in our case it’s more like “that we might go to one group of Gentiles and they might go to another”).
Bernard,
I’m not sure I get the Appalchian church comment. Why is the church alwasy wrong and those who leave it always right? Why is that the assumption, rather than the exception? Is the church always that wrong?
Lew wrote that forsaking the assembly has more to do with failing to stir one another up to love and good works. Every commentary I have, from left to right, says it means the public gatherings of the church for worship. For 1800 years, that has primarily been a Sunday morning thing.
David,
I agree with you that we need many more lines in ther water. I also, of course, agree with you that Sunday morning worship is good.
P.S. again: I’m not really trying to build a theological argument that Sunday morning is the only time. I am trying to build the argument that giving up the sanctity of Sunday morning worship is foolish and has had long-term effects on the health of the local church, and thus the health of its evangelistic efficacy.
Oloryn,
Only relative recent history have you seen the mass emphasis of unbelievers coming into the family gathering to see what is inside – even though that has been happening since the beginning of Christendom. The gathering of believers on the Lord’s Day has been mainly just that – a gathering of believers – to be equipped, encouraged, to worship and to praise – and then go out one-on-one or in pairs to reach the lost. We have lost the paradigm where the ministers of the church are the people of God that now has transformed itself into an ecclesiastical forfeiture in which only ordained holy men speak the gospel while everyone else listens. Paul went to various places in his ministry – along the road, in public theatres, – he even rented a hall to present the gospel to those who would come in and listen to him. Yet on the Lord’s Day, he went into the homes, or the gathering by the riverside with fellow believers to worship and praise God – I am certain bringing those whom he had led to Christ with him.
So no, this has nothing to do with methodology in reaching the the lost with the gospel. “There is nothing new under the sun” in any case, as most of the methods used or will be used have been used at some time in the past. This question is centered upon the believer himself in terms of our personal duty – how do we deal with God’s directives? And are they themselves culturally irrelevant? The last time I looked the 10 Commandments were universal and not a “cookie cutter approach.”
Rob
Could it be that we are coming to somewhat of a consensus on this? Anybody dare to dissent?
Cyle – Sorry for the confusion, I know the comment was out of context and unclear.
My heritage is HUGELY deep in Appalachian mountain church. My grandfather pastored MANY mountain churches in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. I have MANY very dear friends who are still VERY Appalachian in their church preference and involvement. I would never insult that heritage. I’m delighted to be who I am, even though none of those churches were Southern Baptist (Papaw was a Free Will Baptist and I’m not ashamed of that either
)
You mentioned “we called them sinners” and I was immediately taken to a mountain church near Burnsville, NC where no musical instruments were allowed in the church and the “sinners” sat on the back row or else stayed home and sat on the porch. During a “revival meeting”, perhaps the visiting evangelist (probably a guy from the next county or something) would spend time visiting the “known sinners” in the community and try to convince them to “come down to the church tonight” in the hope that they would finally give in and be saved.
“Sinners” was basically a label for anyone who wouldn’t come to church. Perhaps those “sinners” felt that they couldn’t live up to the standard that the church required, or perhaps a preacher stepped on their toes one time too many, or perhaps they simply didn’t like Cousin Joe. Perhaps those issues came out when the pastor or evangelist tried to encourage them to “get right with God”, but my impression was that they were regarded by the church as just being “sinners” who were going to hell if they didn’t get back in church.
These people respected the Sabbath tremendously, but they had services on Saturday night and Sunday morning, so that they could go to bed early on Sunday night and get up with the crack of dawn to farm their tobacco. Culture.
Appalachian church culture. It’s precious to me. I love those people. They are my dear friends. I’ll worship with them at the drop of a hat, even though they don’t approve of people believing in eternal security, and I’m proud to know ‘em. They believe in footwashing and that baptisms can only happen in a river or creek. They don’t have televisions, and they don’t even listen to country music, let alone rock. Chris Tomlin or Lincoln Brewster are of the devil, in their opinion. I still love them, and I’m not out to change them.
But it’s their culture. Most of their particularisms are not specifically addressed in the Bible, and many Southern Baptists scoff at these kinds of things. But these things are important to them.
My mention of “Appalachian” church was simply an effort to connect what you were saying about “calling them sinners” to my points about culture today being different. Hopefully you can see that this Appalachian church culture doesn’t fit in with nearly all SBC churches in even medium sized towns. To try to impose THAT culture would be a disaster for a lot of churches, I know. Yet, we somehow want to dodge the issue of culture and the importance of relevance. We so stubbornly want to preserve what WE know as “good” church culture (SBC church status quo) but easily criticize the Appalachian Free Will Baptists for being out of date.
As to my remark about “were we really addressing why they weren’t in church?” I was addressing the fact that it was easy to say “He’s an old sinner” rather than saying “the church didn’t take good care of him. We didn’t love him through his hard times and encourage him to get the sin out of his life. We criticized him for smoking and drinking rather than helping him see God’s bigger purpose.”
No, the church is NOT always wrong. Usually, in principle, it’s right. Usually, the pastor is NOT to blame when someone jumps up and leaves a church. But we all play a part in the final outcome. I’m not trying to rip apart individual occurrences, I’m simply talking about, as a whole, culture is moving and it’s very difficult to keep abreast of that while being doctrinally orthodox and doing “what a church is supposed to do.”
I love the church, Cyle. I hope I don’t sound otherwise. I do think, as some others have also mentioned, that different churches have different callings and different spots in our culture. I’m not chasing culture, but I don’t want to be so blind as to say that it doesn’t have any impact or any place in our lives.
Love ya in Christ, bro.
Bernard
David:
I won’t offer dissent, but maybe we can stir the pot with this…what does “it” look like? Let’s not think “cookie cutter,” let’s think processes or generalities that are scriptural…compelling without compromise.
Keith,
So far, I find myself saying Amen to just about what everyone is saying here. The last comment by Bernard, for instance, was excellent, in my opinion.
Let’s keep it rollin’, even if someone wants to disagree with someone else too.
David:
Just a thought…If we can amen these differing perpectives is it just possible that the eye, ear, and hand of the body realize that they are all working toward the same goal?
Rob: I think I was responding more to some of the comments than to the initial post. The issue of Sunday morning as outreach was brought up and I was responding to it (yes, I’m probably one of those annoying people who contribute to thread drift).
We have lost the paradigm where the ministers of the church are the people of God that now has transformed itself into an ecclesiastical forfeiture in which only ordained holy men speak the gospel while everyone else listens.
You’ll get violent agreement from me on this (this was one of the other things I felt myself wanting to comment on).
Rob, I’ve been away all afternoon and most of the evening. Visiting my granddaughters. We had a date nite in Texas. I have to say, my brother, that if your words here are any indication of how you preach, I’d be one of those members on Sunday Morning who’d be up at the crack of dawn and ready and eager to have my bucket filled.
In the final analysis of things, it is not what we think, the world thinks, or how relevant the church is or isn’t. It matters what God thinks and He’s the One who dreamed up those Commandments and His only begotten Son left the glory of Heaven to fulfill the law in those commandments, and then died for us to receive Him to obey those commandments. What the rest of the world does, is their decision…as for me? I’ll see ya in church Sunday.
And that is NOT to say that folks can’t have church another day…but God set it up His way. Until someone gets clearance from Him to change it, well…..selahV
Brother Cyle,
It appears that you are not off base with your “theory” that lost people look to God on Sunday AM. The following link is to a story in the 11/29/07 Baptist Press. TIME is reporting an new phenomenon, Atheist are having “Atheist Sunday School” on Sunday AM. Go Figure! :>)
http://www.bpnews.net/BPFirstPerson.asp?ID=26941
Blessings,
Tim
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