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Theology, Psychology, and Prickly Personalities
Posted by Bowden McElroy in Uncategorized
I’m writing this at the end of a very, very long day. I have, for better or worse, developed a reputation for working well with a certain type of client. And that’s okay; it’s nice to have some recognition from my peers. I just wish my secretary wouldn’t schedule all of those clients on the same day. Below are a few random thoughts about theology, psychology, and prickly people. The comment section is open for thoughts – even random ones – on any of these three subjects.
I’ve been married 26 years and have been practicing marriage and family therapy for the past 24 years. Marriage is something I’ve thought a lot about. One thing I haven’t done is systematically put down on paper what I actually believe about marriage.
I’ve begun this process by reviewing some of my favorite authors: the research of Scott Stanley and John Gottman as well as the writings of Douglas Groothuis, Wayne Grudem, and John Piper.
Here’s what I’ve learned about myself so far: I’m enamored with neither the egalitarian view as expressed by Douglas and Rebecca Groothuis nor the complementarian view of Grudem and Piper. I have a few core beliefs about interpreting scripture; among these is the idea that when attempting to discern the efficacy of two different interpretations of scripture (where each is presented by writers with a high view of scripture) I apply a form of Occam’s Razor: the more I read “this is what the Bible says, but here is what it really means”, the more suspicious I am. I think that Piper, Grudem, and the Groothuis’ have too many “here’s what it really means” explanations. So I suspect when all is said and done I’ll present my views in a form that is sure to convince all I have no idea what I’m talking about.
I am also convinced the misapplication of the complementarian viewpoint is responsible for more marital problems than any other understanding of marriage.
I’ve worked with too many men who come into my office and want to know if I believe the husband is the head of the family. Often, the underlying question is “Will you tell my spouse they HAVE to stay married to me no matter what? ‘Cause I really want to continue being a complete jerk and I think a Christian counselor should support me in that.” Or, “I’m special. I shouldn’t have to face any consequences for my years of sinful behavior.” [I know that sounds harsh but I hear it on a regular basis (not those words, exactly; but the sentiment).]
Men misapply the complementarian point of view when they choose to ignore the first seventeen verses in Colossians chapter three (put off the old nature and put on the new nature) and jump straight to verse eighteen. They engage in all kinds of anger, rage, malice, and abusive language and then insist their wives submit to their every controlling whim. Confrontation is nearly impossible because they have God on their side.
This isn’t a theological issue, it’s a matter personality traits; more specifically, a personality disorder. Narcissistic personality disorder. A personality disorder is a pervasive and long standing way of viewing the world; more nurture than nature. Medications have no effect and conventional psychological wisdom (yes… I know many SBC Impact readers will consider “psychological wisdom” an oxymoron) says personality disorders are not amenable to treatment.
Narcissistic personality disorder was named after the Greek myth: Narcissus was so in love with himself he eventually drowned staring at his own reflection. Symptoms may include:
Grandiose sense of one’s own abilities or achievements
Fantasies about having exceptional power, attractiveness or success
Sense of belonging to an exclusive group of people who truly understand each other
Need for constant praise
Expectations of special treatment
Exploitation of other people
Lack of empathy for other people
Envy of other people or a belief that you are the subject of other people’s envy
Haughty or arrogant behaviors
People with narcissistic personality disorder have an exaggerated image of their own importance. They also have vulnerable self-esteems and often don’t like themselves. The end result is men with this personality disorder will seek attention that confirms their grandiosity. When others don’t validate their exaggerated self perception, they tend to lash out or withdraw. Since they are unique and gifted with special talents, failures are clearly someone else’s fault. Blame shifting isn’t a game occasionally played by these men, it is a way of life.
And now for something controversial (isn’t that what bloggers are supposed to write?): Pastors who try to open the Bible and reason with a narcissist are merely setting themselves up for frustration and failure. And, pastors who insist women live meekly and submissively with a narcissist are enabling a very twisted view of Scripture and must share in the responsibility for the lives that are shattered.
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Hmmmm …
*Grandiose sense of one’s own abilities or achievements
*Fantasies about having exceptional power, attractiveness or success
*Sense of belonging to an exclusive group of people who truly understand each other
*Need for constant praise
*Expectations of special treatment
*Exploitation of other people
*Envy of other people or a belief that you are the subject of other people’s envy
*Haughty or arrogant behaviors
Sounds hauntingly like some of the behavioral traits that I’ve run across in Baptist life … AND in the blogosphere …
Sorry, Bowden.
I didn’t mean to get off post. Just had to do it, though.
But what you say rings true in my ministry. I cannot even begin to tell you how many men I have encountered who could quote the “women submit to your husbands” part, but seemed to want to ignore their own personal command for completely selfless, sacrificial love.
And your final paragraph addressed toward pastors is absolutely on target. I know a woman who sought help from her pastor in the face of a self-centered (narcissistic?) husband. That pastor’s profound counseling advice? He told her, “You just need to read your Bible and pray more … and remember that your are married for life because God hates divorce.”
That, my fellow pastors, from my perspective, just does not “cut it.”
Good morning Bowden, My dad never went to church till he was in his 50′s. (it took the death of his first-born son–then finally God reached him, PTL) He was one of those men who would stand in the middle of the room and order his wife to get his tee-shirt and underwear so he could go take a bath. (literally happened every morning)
His distortion of complementarianism left me cold. Yet, I am one who agrees with complementarians today. I didn’t realize till I was saved and serving the Lord in ministry how narcissistic my poor daddy was.
I’m wondering about the list in your post. Do folks with narcissistic personality disorders exhibit all of those traits or do they exhibit some more than others, or do they have some that are less dominate than the others?
Also, would you say that a narcissist is beyond help–even when they become a Christian, or they can’t become a Christian because they are so narcissistic they can’t love Jesus more than their own selves? selahV
SelahV,
The narcissist exhibits all of the traits to some degree, some of the traits will stand out more than others.
I think someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder can be helped: it’s just slow and difficult. Certainly those who becomes Christians can be changed. Often, help comes when they are confronted with overwhelming evidence they are NOT special or uniquely gifted.
I would also add that there are a few women who can be married to a narcissist and be (reasonably) happy and healthy; but not if they give in to his complete selfishness and allow themselves to be walked over. In other words, it takes a strong woman to be contentedly married to a man like that.
Geoff,
The list DOES sound like a few bloggers I’ve read. It may be that blogging attracts the narcissist (“I’m so special… people will want to read my every word”) or, more likely, the lack of face-to-face relationships allows each of us to occasionally access the most selfish part of us (I like to think of that as getting in touch with my inner Nixon).
Bowden,
I think you painted with too broad a brush. You and I work with people in crisis. Could it be that your profession has colored your perception? The misapplication of Scripture by narcissistic or borderline husbands is not grounds to throw out Biblical doctrine. I’ve worked with just as many women who fit your criteria as men. My complimenterian doctrine teaches that a woman chooses to obey God by submitting to her husband, and a husband chooses to obey God by sacrificially serving his wife.
Pastors are the same. Caesar has no place in the pulpit. Scripture is clear that the church is to submit to and obey those who God has placed over them, “as” those men follow Christ. I can stand in the pulpit and teach that truth, or I can stand and demand obedience. The stupidity of demanding obedience to myself does not discredit the truth. It just discredits me.
At what level of narcissism does submission become irrelevant? Do we throw it out altogether? The limit to me is found in obedience to God. If, in following a person in authority over us, we must disobey God, then we must disobey man rather than God. However, even in that there is much room for self and “my rights” to wrongly become the determining factor.
I have opened the Bible and reasoned with narcissists (men and women), and will continue to do so. Many of them have changed. Some have found other counselors and pastors. I have also continued to refer to professional Christian counselors who hold with essentially my view of complimentarianism to help those who are beyond my abilities.
bowden,
i would have to agree with cyle on this one. just because some men misapply the scripture and try to abuse the scripture for thier own personal personality problems, does not negate the truth of the scripture concerning women and men. the complimentarian view is the scriptural view. there’s no other way to see it and really be true to scripture. i know that our modern day, women’s lib society doesnt like that, and many men bow down to the intellegencia of the day, but God’s Word is still God’s Word.
i’d say that the answer is for men to be taught to love thier wife as Christ loves the Church….sacrificially, lovingly, leading. and, for women to love thier husbands and be submissive to his leadership. any thing less than this smacks scripture in the face and says i dont want it to be that way.
thus, just because some men misapply the verses and try to justify thier bad behavior doesnt negate the truth.
david
Bowden,
I have discovered this to be true in the church I serve. I do not know, though, if it is a misapplication of complementarian doctrine, but rather just some kind of ingrained tradition that the wife is supposed to have a meal on the table and bring her husband his slippers as soon as he comes home from work, regardless of what she has done all day that day nor if she works as well.
It is probably just the area in which I live and minister because I can certainly see how this would be the case in more metropolitan areas. I am in rural VA after all.
I will say, and I won’t follow this rabbit unless you say it is OK, I think the misapplication of the complementarian view is responsible for a lot of problems in the church as well.
Cyle,
I am not following your comment. Are you saying that a wife should do whatever her husband tells her or else she is disobedient to God? Maybe I’m a little slow on the uptake this morning.
David and Cyle,
As I stated in the first paragraph, I have problems with both sides of the argument (egalitarian vs. complimentarian). I’m not throwing out the teachings of Grudem or Piper because of my experience with counseling clients.
I think biblical teachings on marriage are multi-faceted and I believe the ideas of headship and oneness intersect in a different way than either the Groothuis’ or Piper/Grudem present their cases.
David’s statement that “the complimentarian view is the scriptural view. there’s no other way to see it and really be true to scripture.” is one that I do not accept. I’m not saying I’m an egalitarian; I’m saying that it’s possible to have some reservations about the Danvers statement and still be “true to scripture”.
And, to repeat myself, it’s the misapplication of the complimentarian view that I have problems with.
David’s comment of “i’d say that the answer is for men to be taught to love thier wife as Christ loves the Church….sacrificially, lovingly, leading. and, for women to love thier husbands and be submissive to his leadership. any thing less than this smacks scripture in the face and says i dont want it to be that way.” is one that I completely agree with. The question is how best to do this.
Tony,
My thoughts really were random… chasing rabbits seems only too appropriate in this comment stream.
Brother Cyle,
Before I was saved I dated some of those women. We referred to them in NC redneckease as High Maintanence. Since I have been saved and gotten married I have met some of those men that Brother Bowden has described–we call them in NC reneckease as Rednecks.
:>)
Seriously, Brother Bowden, would you not say that men, because of the fall, they are geared to have some type of personality disorder? The fallen personality, if allowed to proceed without a disciplined environment, will move easily into narcissism. IOW, Willard Harley says the 5th top need of a man is admiration. If the need for admiration is not kept within a disciplined environment would it not easily progress to; Sense of belonging to an exclusive group of people who truly understand each other and need for constant praise?
Blessings,
Tim
Tim,
As Cyle pointed out, women can also be narcissistic. The research is clear that more men than women meet the criteria for this particular disorder.
I think we raise boys to be narcissistic men: praise them for everything (even those things that are not praiseworthy), excuse all of their sin and mistakes (it’s always the school’s fault or the coach’s fault, never the boy’s responsibility), and cater to their every whim.
This personality disorder is beyond selfishness; it’s a way of viewing the world with oneself at the very center of the universe. Certainly selfishness and pride are sins we are all susceptible to; I’m talking about something different.
All,
I just want to say I think Gary Smalley is a stinking sissy. His gobbledy-goop caused a many a good man to go through torment. When some couples would come to me and start telling me their horror stories about how they were not communicating and could not get in touch with their true feelings I knew they had bought one of Smalley’s goofy “how to feminize your husband and make him your best friend by helping him get in touch with his inner self and the girl within him” junk books.
I think his best seller was “How to turn your husband into a sissy by helping him to rid himself of the need for huntin’, fishin’, fightin, football, baseball, hockey, collecting guns and edged weapons which will make him your constant companion to go to the mall with on the weekends” junk book.
Every time I had one of those couples in my office who was reading Smalley’s “how to ruin a good marriage in a hurry” junk books I would tell the wife to get three of her female friends and go to the mall for three days in a row and buy something every day even if she already had one at home. I would tell the husband to go to the woods for three days, or a week depending on how bad Smalley’s junk books had messed him up, and kill something or several somethings and cook it over a campfire about half way and eat it.
I then instructed them to come back home pull the phone out of the wall, shoot the TV, throw the computer in the river, turn on the radio and pretty soon they would realize they really loved each other and they both would be glad the husband did not get in touch with his inner self or find the girl within him.
I bet I have saved 700-800 marriages with that method. And you know what really makes me mad. I did not charge those couples one dime and that stinking Gary Smalley got rich turning unlucky men into sissies before they heard of my sure-fire cure for a dull marriage.
All you really need to remember is that there is man stuff, woman stuff, and then there is man-woman stuff especially made for married people and you will always be happily married and you won’t need Gary Smalley and his junk books in your life.
Now, I don’t know what kind of view that is be it complementarian or egalitarian. I just know it works 100% of the time for people that love each other in the first place and will go a long way to heal what ails those that don’t know if they love one another.
cb
Forget about posting my comment, Bowden. I posted it myself.
cb
cb…
Our apologies for not getting your comment posted in a timely manner. For some reason our spam filter picked up on it and held it for moderation, and we didn’t notice it until this morning.
cb,
Does the word, “mall,” make your back and feet ache as much as it does mine?
I think I’m going to go out and practice my bow shooting this afternoon. This cold snap has brought on the early rut …
cb,
amen and halelujah! good stuff, bro.!
david
Bowden, You have no idea how right you are. You have hit the nail on the head with this post.
One could never submit enough to a narcissist. Remember what Ted Turner said about Jesus and Jane? That is a classic narcissism And trust me…if the woman is thought to love Jesus more…or pay attention to Jesus more…she is in real trouble. Oh, he may play along if he gets enough attention at church or to keep his ‘image’ but in private he will do all he can to sabotage that relationship.
You are right…the numbers bear it out…most narcissist are overwhelmingly men. And it usually begins by the age of 8-11.
I personally believe it is demonic. It is way beyond a personality ‘disorder’. It can take YEARS to realize one is on the narcissist’s roller coaster.
One more thing: Narcissists flock to the complimentarian view. Why? because that view is preached focusing on the WOMAN’s responsibilities and saying she sets the ‘tone’ in the marriage. A few lines about the men’s responsibilities usually are thrown in with not a lot of detail.
The irony does not escape me that these sermons are given by men. Trust me, I have listened to hundreds of comp sermons and read all the books. It is the same thing.
What does the narcissist say? Of course I would ‘die’ for you…knowing that will probably never need to happen. Case closed…He did his part and ‘said’ the right thing.
Now, ‘tone’ is a daily thing and subject to the narcissist’s opinion.
Keep that in mind when you comps are preaching…please.