Mitt Romney & SBC Supporters: Pragmatism Over Biblical Principles
Brothers and sisters, I am befuddled by the people who adamantly oppose participating in ventures with those who profess to be Christian (BWA, NBC) but who will support and even endorse joining forces with a member of a cult (Mitt Romney, Mormon). What I think we have is Christians who have fallen for the idol of morality instead of living out biblical principles for the purpose of exalting Christ.
Can a person be moral and not be a Christian? Of course. Christians have no patent on morality. True Christianity produces the by-product of morality but that is not to say that all who hold to Christian morals are Christians.
I think most Christians would agree that our purpose while we’re here on earth is to glorify God. Everything that God does is for His glory. God reminds us in Romans 3:23 that “all have sinned.” How have we all sinned? By falling “short of the glory of God.” Therefore, anything that is done for any reason other than to glorify God is sin. Good works done for the sake of morality and not to glorify God is sin. Morality in and of itself is nothing. Unless morality is embraced in a manner which exalts Christ, then it is empty and useless (John 15:5).
One reader commented that Romney would be “going to live by the Mormon doctrine of holiness.” Is that reader truly speaking of holiness or morality? The word “holy” means something or someone set apart for the purpose of glorifying God. If a Mormon does not honor, trust, and worship the God of the Bible, how can any of his “holiness” be construed as glorying to God? It can’t. If the Jesus of the Bible is rejected for a Jesus of one’s own creation, then that person worships an idol and is not worshiping the living God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Therefore, all of that person’s righteousness is “filthy rags” to God (Isa. 64:6). That person’s version of “holiness” is then no holiness at all in the biblical sense.
Brothers and sisters, let me challenge you to take a step back and ask yourselves, “Am I more interested in promoting morality or Christ?” Morality outside of the context of Jesus Christ is a subtle idol. Some say they will not work with a non-Christian in evangelism but they will work with a non-Christian to promote moral principles. Can you not see that morality for the sake of morality is not Christian morality? Don’t sacrifice your exaltation of Christ for the sake of human morality. Don’t resort to pragmatism in the name of morality at the expense of one person turning to a cult rather than to Christ.
IMHO, voting for Mitt Romney would be the same as voting for a Muslim candidate if he or she embraced the same moral values as you. Muslims are against abortion and homosexuality. Muslims are for moral living and conservative values. Why not vote for a Muslim?
It is my hope that Christians do not get blinded by a white, good-looking man with his white, good-looking moral family who uses the words “Jesus,” “God,” and “conservative values,” and is under a veil of spiritual deception just as dark as any other non-Christian religion.
I appeal to my fellow Christians not to let your desire for morality supersede your desire for glorifying Jesus.
Les,
Great article. When I first said that I would never vote for Mitt Romney because he was a member of a cult, many Christians I said this to were dismayed. After all, he was a moral man who espoused the same principles as “us.” However, the longer things have gone along in this campaign, the more people have agreed with my stance. It is impossible for Romney to be open about the practices of his faith and remain a faithful Mormon. I know this may sound crass, but I don’t want a president who one day wants to be a God (a.k.a., a good Mormon). I want a president who one day wants to see the only true God, and lives to serve Him. It is also not just about Romney and Mormonism. I would not vote for a Muslim because of Sharia law, nor for a Roman Catholic who wanted to extend the reign of the Papal See. Nor would I vote for a Baptist who wanted to make all Americans Baptist.
Amen Les.
les,
who’d you vote for? hillary “it takes a village” clinton, or a mormon? it very well could come down to that. in that case i might be tempted to vote for a mormon.
david
Les,
I guess I’m struggling with the intersection that you are drawing between casting a political vote and making some sort of faith expression. According to your rationale, would not a vote for anyone who is not a fervent, faithful, soul-winning disciple of Jesus Christ a vote that would “sacrifice the exultation of Christ?”
Somehow I don’t think the choice is going to be so “black and white” when it is time for the general election. Worley asks a valid question. If, next November, Mitt Romney is the Republican candidate (fiscal conservative, social conservative, pro-life) and Hillary Clinton is the Democratic candidate (liberal in every sense, pro-abortion, modern socialist), what must a Christian voter do? One can, of course, vote for a third party candidate. But such a vote is, by default, a de-facto vote for Clinton.
Thus, the conviction that would deny one’s vote for a conservative Mormon would elect Hillary.
Our faith must guide our principles and decisions. But sadly, in this fallen world in which we live, we do not always have the convenience of choosing between holy and evil. Indeed, many times we must make a choice between the “lesser of two evils.”
Next November may, very well, be one of those times.
David and Geoff,
So are you saying that if the Republican candidate that had the same values as you was a Muslim, you would vote for him? How about a Buddhist candidate? Wiccan? Hindu? Scientologist? Where would you draw the line?
In November 2008, if it comes down to Hilary and Romney, which I sincerely doubt but stranger things have happened, I will write in a candidate for the first time in my voting experience. You may call that a wasted vote or a vote for Hilary, however, I disagree. Everyone who exercises his or her right to vote casts a vote that is meaningful because of the very action of voting itself. If this is untrue, then the freedom we so adamantly proclaim is meaningless and empty.
I believe all of this can be avoided if the so-called “Religious Right” will get behind someone like Mike Huckabee. If the Christian voting block is so powerful, then why should we have to compromise in regards to our candidate? Is it possible that the Christian voting block is not as powerful as we would like to believe?
It seems we’re more interested in “what works” than in “what’s biblical.” That, my good friends, is known as pragmatism. Elevate it over biblical principles if you will; that is your personal choice and you shall be accountable for your actions just as I am. However, I choose not to do anything, including casting my vote, which might help to validate any cult, much less one which presents a false Christ and views biblical Christians as apostate. If that’s not of the devil, then I don’t know what is.
Les
Les,
How would a vote for Romney validate a cult? Has George W. Bush’s presidency been a source of growth for Methodism?
I simply do not see this as “black and white” as you seem to. I do not know of any biblical instruction regarding casting votes for political office. Indeed, the entire notion of electing one’s leaders was, most likely, a fantasy in biblical times.
We are not guaranteed (by any means) a Christ-centered government. Yet we are still instructed to honor and submit to authority. In a New Testament context, that authority was Roman … fierce, bloody, and Godless. Yet Christians were expected to submit in order to provide a Christian witness.
I think this is one of those times when it becomes difficult to see the political “forest” (overall government direction, policy, supreme court nominees, etc…) for the “trees” (the religious heritage of the candidates).
So I guess that in a political discussion I am, indeed, a bit of a pragmatist. I will prayerfully cast my vote to the most electable candidate that best represents my political views … even if our religious views may differ. (Ross Perot demonstrated the power of the “non-vote” for George H.W. Bush … a-la Bill Clinton.)
I will live out my witness in my church and community and through my missions. My vote on election day is not for an individual’s religion. It is a vote for their policy (or, unfortunately, against someone else’s policy).
Geoff
As a Christian, shouldn’t you take into consideration whether a vote for Mitt Romney serves both your interests and the “common good.” After all, we do live in a very pluralistic society.
If candidate A supports your policy goals 100% but only 50% with candidate B, why not vote for candidate A?
We’re electing a man or woman to enact policy not a theologian.
You’ve constructed a political creed, a litmus test. That litmus test might suit you fine but now it seems that you’d like to impose that creed on others. As you know, I believe creeds are dangerous as they fetter the conscience. Also, appealing to white Americans fears of Muslims in a post-911 world is somewhat cheap. How is voting for Mitt ROmney any different than voting for a conservative Jew like Joe the Independent Democrat? Both are not Christians – although Romney does profess a belief in Jesus Christ.
Based on your creed, what past great Presidents could you have voted for? Not Jefferson nor Washington who with their deistic tendencies were far from being orthodox. John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Fillmore and Taft all rejected the Trinity. Honest Abe was an odd dude. Though later baptized a Presbyterian, ole Ike swore in on a WatchTower printed Bible (Jehovah’s Witnesses) for his second Presidential inauguration. Madison and Monroe were very unorthodox Episcopalians who some consider to be deists. I guess it’s a good thing you’re living in a different era, huh? :-)
I, like Les am having a hard time understanding this reasoning. If Mitt Romney or Hilary ran, I would either not vote at all or do as Les has said and write in a third candidate. We are to submit to authority as long as it does not go against God’s word. Even Daniel did not submit to Belshazzar.
Geoff said: “I will live out my witness in my church and community and through my missions. My vote on election day is not for an individual’s religion. It is a vote for their policy (or, unfortunately, against someone else’s policy).”
This may be a high price to pay for a policy. My theology is my life. Why not Mike Huckabee. If Satan himself came and offered good policies I would not vote for him. Mitt Romney’s religion will govern his politics. That is how Mormon’s live. Should we not be even more so?
Debbie,
So you assume that Romney would require you to submit to laws that violate God’s Word? Nam one elected official who has not already done that.
Actually, Daniel submitted faithfully to his king until the laws required him to personally violate his faith. Then he sought a way to “creatively” submit.
Anyhow … Mike Huckabee would be a fine choice, IF he can make it out of the primaries and into the general election. (And if “ifs” and “buts” were candy and nuts, what a wonderful Christmas it would be … :) ) But at this point, I don’t see that happening.
The dilemma that you need to be looking at is the general election, in which one of two candidates WILL win. Not the primaries, with a smörgåsbord of candidates.
You said, “If Mitt Romney or Hilary ran, I would either not vote at all or do as Les has said and write in a third candidate.” I guess I just cannot fathom that line of reasoning … where one could participate in allowing someone to gain the presidency when that person has the full intent of wreaking havoc on our social, fiscal, and healthcare systems … and usher in an era of unrestricted socialism upon the United States. And all based upon the notion, “Well, I just can’t bring myself to vote for a Mormon … they have bad theology …”
Such reasoning makes no sense to me. The futures of my children and my grandchildren-to-be are just too important to me.
In the general election, if it is a choice between Mitt Romney and Hillary Clinton, it is a “no brainer” choice for me.
No one has answered my question about where do we draw the line. I’ll ask it again. Would you vote for a Muslim candidate? How about a Buddhist candidate? Wiccan? Hindu? Scientologist? Where would you draw the line?
BTW, good discussion, folks. Thanks for disagreeing agreeably. :)
Les
I would not vote for a Muslim candidate. I have lived in a Muslim country and have seen what that does for the people.
I would not vote for a Buddhist candidate. I have lived in a Buddhist country and have seen what that does for the people.
I would not vote for a Mormon candidate. Anyone who would believe such an unbelievable deception is not worthy to lead my country.
I would not vote for a Wiccan candidate. We are still a nation “under God” and their own personal beliefs would create a conflict of interest in running our country.
I would not vote for a Hindu candidate. I have seen the havoc that Hinduism can bring on a people.
I would not vote for a Scientologist for the same reason as the mormon above.
Pragmatically, I would draw the line just before the atheist.
Yes, to me, the candidate’s religion is EXTREMELY important but I also have to look at character and history. After all, Clinton is/was SBC, but look at what he did. You can’t base the vote on religion alone.
God have mercy on us all.
As a Mormon reading these comments, it’s obvious that NONE of you know what you’re talking about concerning my religion. And you never will unless you ask a member of my church with an open mind. That will not happen because you do not want to know. I used to have a good opinion of Baptists as fellow Christians. I hope they’re not all like you.
Brenda (is that a name or a place?)
Welcome to sbc IMPACT! But you speak in generous generalities. We need details.
Would you care to elaborate and enlighten us concerning your religion, since we don’t seem to know what we’re talking about?
Geoff, Talk to an active member of the LDS church face to face. I won’t get through to you online. I only write this because I hope someone out there is open to reason. We have been misrepresented over and over and I’m just getting fed up. If you can’t find an active Mormon, go to lds.org. That’s if you REALLY want elaboration and enlightenment.
But, Brenda … let’s talk about it here. I will listen.
Regretfully, I have to say that (based upon the commands of Scripture not to add to its text or take away from it) the true Gospel of Jesus Christ (not another one…) has been misrepresented to you over and over.
Tell me, seriously, how do you think Romney’s beliefs would affect his role as president?
Geoff, You do not give me or any member of my faith any credit for having intelligence. We are not brain-washed. We are encouraged to study for ourselves. I teach a Bible study class. I know the scriptures that you refer to. Parts of the Bible were written after those scriptures were written and by your logic, those parts of the Bible should be excluded.
Yes, I think Romney’s beliefs would affect his role as president. Those beliefs that teach him integrity, honesty, morality, and accountability, because personal behavior along with staying close to the Holy Spirit and seeking God’s will, is very important to us. Will he try to enact legislation to barr alcohol and tabacco, enforce religious observance of Sundays, and require all to let LDS missionaries in their doors? Of course not. I don’t know him personally. But I do know the calliber of a man who has held the positions in our church that he has, and this tells me a lot. He has lived by a very high personal standard. Hopefully he will continue to live that way. The leadership of our church does not involve itself in politics. Instead we are encouraged to prayerfully study the issues and vote.
I have happily voted for protestant and/or evangelical Christians many times. They don’t have religious beliefs exactly as mine, but I look for their integrity and common values. I have always appreciated the values of fellow Christians and thought feelings were mutual. This campaign has exposed me to a very sad realization.
Brenda,
I am so glad you entered into the discussion. Have you seen the video I mentioned entitled, “The Mormon Puzzle”? If not, I will gladly send you a copy and ask for your feedback regarding any inaccuracies you see regarding the faith of LDS.
Perhaps another scenario might be that I could post my understanding of the basic beliefs of the LDS church and have you respond. Would you be agreeable to doing that?
Regards,
Les
Brenda,
I know that we can find some agreement in your second paragraph.
And this campaign has (and will continue to) have many sad revelations … as most campaigns often do.
As far as our theologies go, I think we will have to agree to remain in disagreement. I must confess that I have studied the theology and history of the LDS movement in considerable detail. There are many extra-biblical issues with which I will never be able to agree. Nevertheless, I value your opinions and am grateful that you have felt the freedom to express yourself here.
It is always good to have a dialog with someone who is different from ourselves … even with someone with whom we have considerable disagreement. At least we can understand one another a bit better.
Geoff, I appreciate your civility. I am not trying to convert anyone. To be able to disagree while remaining agreeable is all we ask. We have been ridiculed, mocked, bashed, and just plain lied about. It gets hard to take, especially when we simply are trying to be good people. Believe me, our leaders teach us to respect others; we hear it all the time. We are never taught anything negative about another religion. Just walk into one of our bookstores. You won’t find anti-Baptist, anti-Lutheran, etc. Then we hear what is being taught about us from the pulpits of other churches and it’s hurtful. And then we’re told we’re not Christians . . . Thanks for your friendly response.
Les, I encourage you also to go to lds.org or to talk to a member of the LDS church in person.
Brenda,
I have posted a comparison of Mormon beliefs and historic Christian beliefs on my blog at http://lesliepuryear.blogspot.com. I have also invited any LDS folks who wish to refute any misunderstanding I have of Mormon doctrine to do so.
You’re welcome to point out any errors in my understanding of Mormon beliefs.
Les
Richard Land says that Mormonism is the fourth Abrahamic religion along with Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Paul, Being LDS, I am still mulling over Richard Land’s statement. We are Christian, that is non-negotiable. This is because, the dictionary defines it as “1. of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings. 2. of, pertaining to, or adhering to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ,” Etc. As long as the word Christian is derived from the name Christ, we will claim it. Christ is the center, the very breath of our religion.
Protestant Christians claim that the Jesus we worship is not the same as theirs and that we don’t worship the Jesus in the Bible. We get it, but we don’t agree. The Jesus we worship is the one who walked on water, was baptized by John, healed the sick, died on the cross and was resurrected.
The Old Testament regards Abraham as the founder of the covenant race, which is the House of Israel. Members of the LDS religion claim to be a part of that house, along with many others. So as far as being an Abrahamic religion? Yes. But we are Christian.
Brenda,
Was your Jesus born out of actual sexual intercourse between Mary and Elohim?
Is your Jesus now living on a planet near the star Kolob?
It is my understanding that this is what LDS followers believe. Is that not so?
I have NEVER had an LDS follower answer that question for me, online or in person.
I am honestly not trying to be antagonistic, but sincerely want an answer. No one seems willing to give me one.
Please don’t refer me to lds.org, for I looked, but didn’t find the answer there. Please don’t answer my question with one of your own.
brenda,
i have also heard a mormon elder say that Jesus and Lucifer(Satan) were brothers in heaven. is that what mormons believe?
also, i would like to ask you if mormons believe in the Trinity…God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit making up the one, true, God?
thanks for your answers,
david
Rick, All we know about Mary becoming pregnant is in the Bible, and there we read that Mary was a virgin. We know nothing more than that. I’ve read some crazy things online that say we believe as you stated in your question, but it is absolutely not true.
I honestly don’t know where Jesus lives. Yes, I’ve heard of Kolob. Please give lds.org another try: 1. Open the site; 2. find “Gospel Library” (near the top) with your cursor, then move your cursor to the right and click on “Scriptures”, 3. click on “Pearl of Great Price”; 4. click on “The Book of Abraham”; 5. click on Chapter 3; 6. read verses 3-9. If you read this, you will know all that we know about it.
David, We believe we were all brothers and sisters in heaven. Please refer to lds.org as above, except instead of clicking on “The Book of Abraham”, click on “The Book of Moses”, click on chapter 4 and read verses 1-4. This will tell you how Satan became the devil.
Thank you for sincere questions. I am happy to respond as best I can.
David, I forgot to answer your last question. We believe that the Godhead consists of 3 separate beings, who are one in purpose. Being one is explained in John 17:21-22, where Christ is praying to God the Father, asking that his people “may be one, even as we are one.”
Les, I was finally able to open your site. I didn’t find any problems with what you’ve written, except the part that says we believe that only Mormons will be exalted. That wording puts an exclusive slant on it. Yes we believe we have the one true path to the highest degree of heaven, yet every person born to this earth is a child of God and is loved by Him. He does not love me more than He loves you. I believe God appreciates the good that exists in all religions, we just believe that we have something to add to yours. We don’t see other religions as evil; there is truth in them all and the world is a better place because of the good people of all faiths. We send out missionaries because we believe we have something of great value and with that comes a responsibility to share it. We never mean to offend anyone.
In your comparisons I found very little conflict between the traditional Christian doctrine and LDS doctrine. The latter just seemed to give more details.
brenda,
there are many big, major, critical conflicts between true christianity and mormonism.
one, to deny the trinity of God is to either believe in more than one God, or else you believe that Jesus is not God. to believe in two God’s…the Father and Jesus….goes against the clear teaching of the bible that there is one, true God. and, to believe that Jesus is not God is to deny the clear teachings of the bible concerning the person of Jesus. do you see that this is a major, critical error in mormon doctrine?
secondly, to say that we were all brothers and sisters in heaven at some time in the past is not what the bible teaches at all. that teaching also denies the diety of Jesus. in fact, it puts the devil on the same level as the Lord Jesus. in fact, it puts us on the same level as Jesus. are you saying that you are a god? that i am a god?
david
Brenda,
I am astounded that you see no major differences between Mormonism and historic Christianity.
Christians do not believe they will become God. Christians do not believe they will be married in heaven.
Mormons believe they will become God.
Mormons believe that Jesus was a man who became a God.
Mormons believe they will be given their own universe and, with the spouse they had on earth, will procreate to produce “spirit babies” for the bodies of the humans in “their universe.”
How is this remotely akin to historic Christianity?
Les
Also, Mormons believe they can be baptized as a proxy for dead people. Christians believe that once you die, your eternal destination is determined.
There is no similarity between the two belief systems.
Les
One final point and then I’ll stop for now. Here’s the “bottom-line” difference between Mormons and Christians.
Mormons believe that Jesus was a man who became God. That is a man-centered view.
Christians believe that Jesus is God who was incarnated as man. That is a God-centered view.
I pray that Christ will pull back the veil from your heart to see the truth.
Les
Les & David, When I said I didn’t see much conflict, I was referring to what you (Les) had on your site. I went back and reread your entries on traditional Christianity and saw a few differences. They were:
1. God is a spirit, without a body. I can understand this. But to us you are describing the Holy Ghost/Spirit, who to us is a different being from God, but still part of the Godhead.
2. The Trinity. The Bible can be confusing, but there are many references to God the Father, and Jesus being separate. ie. Jesus’ prayers to God, Jesus as a boy speaking of doing His father’s business, Jesus’ baptism, the martyrdom of Stephen when he saw Jesus on the right hand of God, Jesus speaking to God when He was on the cross.
3. The Bible is the only source of true scripture. We believe in the Bible, absolutely, just that it’s not unreasonable to believe that God can inspire additional scripture to be written. It doesn’t diminish the sacredness of the Bible. In all my years of Biblical study, I’ve never come across a discrepancy between the Book of Mormon and the Bible, as long as the writings are read in context, understanding the history, etc.
There ARE many belief differences between you and me, but I was referring to your website only.
When I say we worship Christ, I should say we worship God through Christ. We don’t worship multiple gods. Christ is the way to God. We pray only to God (our Heavenly Father), and we pray in the name of Christ. Christ is our savior and redeemer, and we worship God through Him.
There is so much that I don’t understand yet, I’m like a 2nd grader trying to explain eternity. This much I do know. God tells me, through the Holy Spirit, that I am in the right place. It is reconfirmed to me over and over. I know that my life is immensely better than it would be without this gospel. I see the same in the lives of my children. My relationship with my Heavenly Father is my anchor. The things I can’t explain yet, I accept in trust and faith.
I respect traditional Christianity and can see how you interpret the Bible as you do. I also appreciate the respect you show for the beliefs that are sacred to us.
brenda,
do you not see though that either you believe in the trinity, thus believing Jesus to be God, Diety; or else you must be worshipping many gods. there is only one, true God according to the bible…correct? so, taking what the mormons believe, if the Father is a God, and Jesus is a God, then you are worshipping at least two gods there. if you believe that we become gods one day, then you are believing in many, many gods. and, that, brenda, is not according to the bible. right?
also, brenda, no other books have been given to us by the Lord. we have His Word, the bible, and we dont need more. any man could say that an angel gave him more books. there could be many, many reasons and motivations for some man to do this. one of the reasons being that he could get everyone to go along with his view of religion. to make sure that his way was looked upon as the right way. also, some out there claim these kind of things to get money out of people, and others may do it in order to gain sexual favors from women. didnt mormons first believe in polygamy? i beleive the founding fathers of mormonism had many, many wives…did they not?
david
David, I do understand why you believe in the trinity, etc. But I don’t think you are able to understand me. We could debate all day long, but that’s not why I originally entered this discussion. I never expected anyone to be converted to Mormonism here. Just that when we read online things like, “a vote for a Mormon is a vote for the devil”, it’s hurtful and insulting to us. Apparently you believe that we’re headed for damnation and this motivated your efforts to change my mind? Please understand that the LDS religion does not believe that about you. We believe that all good people are headed for heaven, exactly as you expect. What kind of God sends good people to hell?
Furthermore, spending time studying what one believes is a false religion, rather than studying what one believes is the truth, is an odd practice to me. We study the scriptures, faith, charity, repentance, the Atonement, etc. I really know very little about specific traditional Christian churches and their doctrines. They’re not even mentioned in our sermons and lessons. We seek to better learn the gospel and how to become more Christlike, rather than worrying about what is being taught next door.
Yes, one could come up with a book and try to pass it off as from God with all the obvious motivations. That is why no one is encouraged to join our church or to remain in it without prayerfully reading and studying the Book of Mormon. Then ask God. Let Him decide. Put it to the test. Don’t take my or anyone else’s word about it’s authenticiy. Just read it and ask God.
I’ve just spent the past 2 years studying the Bible. I noticed a pattern in the lives of the prophets of the Old Testament. They were called by God at a very young age, felt entirely inadequate to do the work, but they did it and then generally lived very difficult lives. Joseph Smith fits in this pattern. He didn’t gain anything worldly. He was driven, persecuted, watched his children suffer and die; he was finacially broke, and finally murdered. His life would have been much easier if he’d never had any connection to the Book of Mormon. If he just wanted sexual favors, there are much easier ways.
Thank you for this friendly dialogue.
PS. Les, Baptism for the dead: 1st Corinthians 15:29.
David, I do understand why you believe in the trinity, etc. But I don’t think you are able to understand me. We could debate all day long, but that’s not why I originally entered this discussion. I never expected anyone to be converted to Mormonism here. Just that when we read online things like, “a vote for a Mormon is a vote for the devil”, it’s hurtful and insulting to us. Apparently you believe that we’re headed for damnation and this motivated your efforts to change my mind? Please understand that the LDS religion does not believe that about you. We believe that all good people are headed for heaven, exactly as you expect. What kind of God sends good people to hell?
Furthermore, spending time studying what one believes is a false religion, rather than studying what one believes is the truth, is an odd practice to me. We study the scriptures, faith, charity, repentance, the Atonement, etc. I really know very little about specific traditional Christian churches and their doctrines. They’re not even mentioned in our sermons and lessons. We seek to better learn the gospel and how to become more Christlike, rather than worrying about what is being taught next door.
Yes, one could come up with a book and try to pass it off as from God with all the obvious motivations. That is why no one is encouraged to join our church or to remain in it without prayerfully reading and studying the Book of Mormon. Then ask God. Let Him decide. Put it to the test. Don’t take my or anyone else’s word about it’s authenticiy. Just read it and ask God.
I’ve just spent the past 2 years studying the Bible. I noticed a pattern in the lives of the prophets of the Old Testament. They were called by God at a very young age, felt entirely inadequate to do the work, but they did it and then generally lived very difficult lives. Joseph Smith fits in this pattern. He didn’t gain anything worldly. He was driven, persecuted, watched his children suffer and die; he was finacially broke, and finally murdered. His life would have been much easier if he’d never had any connection to the Book of Mormon. If he just wanted sexual favors, there are much easier ways.
PS. Les, Baptism for the dead: 1st Corinthians 15:29.
Do you think Mormons are going to hell?
Brenda,
I’m familiar with the obscure reference in scripture to the baptism of the dead. There is no evidence that it means what Mormons believe it means.
The Bible is clear that once we die, there is no additional means of salvation. That includes your “baptism of the dead.”
To answer your other question, yes, I believe that Mormons are headed to hell. That is why I so desperately want them to turn to the true Christ, not the Mormon Christ.
Les
Hey Brenda,
I just read some of your comments. Could I ask you a question? I’m a Southern Baptist pastor and I teach traditional Southern Baptist doctrine. According to Mormonism, am I headed for hell or heaven? Do I have a a chance in Mormon theology of reaching the Celestial Kingdom and becoming a God?
Les, The reference is obscure. But it does say that someone was doing baptisms for the dead then. It existed.
Your answer to my question explains a lot. It helps me understand why there is such an antagonistic attitude out there. Since the LDS church is growing so rapidly, you must feel we are a real threat. I have met and known countless LDS people throughout my life who are humble, generous, kind, gentle, and decent. I honestly can’t conceive of a loving God who would condemn them. And what about children; are they also doomed? It just goes beyond comprehension. I’m very sorry you feel this way. I don’t know what more to say.
Cyle, I don’t know where you’re headed, only God can decide that. Heaven is for all the good, honorable people of the earth, not just Mormons. I’ve noticed that non-LDS people seem to focus on the doctrine of becoming gods. We don’t. All I hope for is to return to my Heavenly Father some day and to be with my family, my husband and children, etc. forever. I don’t care about becoming a god. We really don’t dwell on it much, but other Christians, like you, seem overly occupied by it. Everyone will have the opportunity of reaching the Celestial Kingdom. Everyone.
Brenda,
I guess what I was trying to do was to draw a line between your religion and the Biblical faith delivered by Christ and the apostles. I was also trying to draw a line between Mormon and orthodox Christianity. If you really believed I was ok, then your missionaries would stop trying to get me and those like me to become Mormons. Becoming a god is a hertical part of your belief system, whether you think about it much or not. And, the whole concept you have of eternal marriage and eternal family is completely contradictory to the teachings of Jesus in the Bible. You cannot believe the Bible and the book of mormon, the pearl of great price, and the doctrines and covenants. You cannot believe in the inspired writings of men whose minds change. I mean, you can, but not unless you are deceived. That is what I and most orthodox Christians think that you are, deceived. You sincerely believe you are right, will not admit that you believe we are wrong, and so there we are. The nature of deception is that the one who is deceived does not know it. There is absolutely nothing scripturally, historically, or logically that would cause me to believe that the Mormon faith is true Christianity. I think you are deceived, and I think that Mitt Romney is deceived, too. I think you are members of a cult and I don’t want a member of a cult in the white house. I wish you could hear me as I write this, because I am not angry with you or hostile toward you. I care for you and every mormon, and hate to see so many people headed away from the one true God into an eternity separated from Him.
Brenda: How long have you been a Mormon? You do realize that they give this information based on how long your a Mormon? They decide when and how to give the information Les has posted. Only good Mormons go to the celestial place although Mormons do believe that all have eternal life.
Les, The reference is obscure. But it does say that someone was doing baptisms for the dead then. It existed.
Brenda, I challenge you to read the entire chapter. That would give this verse the proper meaning as the writers of scripture intended.
I would also ask you to look at the whole chapter of the verse you have given concerning
Folks,
Peter Lumpkins actually has a post today that ties directly to this discussion and may bring it back on course … though the off-course stuff is okay. ;)
Geoff,
I have already stated my reasons why evangelicals should not vote for Romney. Peter’s post is a rehash of the pragmatism that many evangelicals now find themselves embracing.
Brenda,
My view on Mormons is not meant to be antagonistic. My antagonism is directed toward the devil who is deceiving folks like you to worship a false god. Also, I do not have any fear about the spread of Mormonism from a church growth perspective, only from a perspective of spiritual deception.
My desire is for Mormons to turn away from a false God and turn to the true Jesus.
Thanks for the conversation.
Les
brenda,
i would encourage you to listen to what les is saying.
david
Cyle, We send out missionaries for the same reason that Paul went. It’s obedience to Matt. 28:19-20. We believe we have something to add to your doctrine. One example you brought up – eternal marriage, which you say the Bible contradicts, and I say the Bible supports.
I do believe you are wrong (I thought that was obvious) on some points and limited on others. But do Baptists agree on all points with Lutherans, Methodists, Quakers or the Church of the Living Waters (a Christian church in my town)?
I believe you are misled. Therefore, I would have to say the same about Pres. Reagon, Pres. Bush, and many other people I’ve voted for. I look for experience, character, integrity, and common values. It appears that you will not vote for a Mormon because you think that would somehow validate the Mormon religion. I think Mike Huckabee is a fine man and would probably vote for him if he received the nomination. I also greatly admire Sen. Lieberman and would possibly support him if he ran. I wouldn’t vote for Harry Reid, who is LDS, if he were running today, because I don’t agree with him on many issues. To not vote for Romney, inspite of all his qualities, just because he is LDS . . .
No, I don’t sense any anger from you. This discussion has really helped me understand some things better. Hopefully it’s helped you as well.
Les,
I still maintain that we are voting for a president, not a pastor or a new member of the church.
What you call pragmatism others (including me) consider to be more along the lines of political common sense.
But, hey, that’s cool. We still have 12 months to convince one another. ;) SHould be fun.
Debbie, Sorry, I don’t understand your first paragraph. Who are “they” and what information do you mean?
I reread the entire chapter of 1st Corinthians 15 as you suggested. Paul is explaining the truth of the resurrection and in verse 29 asks, “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?” It seems pretty clear to me, but I use the King James Bible; perhaps your wording is different?
Brenda,
Several problems arise with the traditional Mormon interpretation and use of this single verse of Scripture to form a doctrine for being baptized in the place of the dead.
1. This is a single verse written within the context of the reality of the resurrection.
2. Paul is making reference to a supposed practice that is otherwise unknown or unrecorded in church history.
3. The Mormon interpretation assumes that the actual act of salvation is, in some way, salvific … otherwise why would one desire to do genealogical research and be baptized for someone who died long ago? The practice is akin to the Roman Catholic false doctrine of “purgatory.”
4. Notice that Paul referred to the people practicing this as “they.” He did not say, “we.” Whatever this practice was, he did not identify himself with it. Indeed, the context of the passage seems to indicate that he may not have approved of it.
5. The Greek word translated as “for” can also mean “because of” or “on account of,’ as well as several other possibilities.
I refer you to this interesting article which explains the nuances of the interpretation of this interesting, difficult verse.
Hey ya’ll,
I’ve ministered to Mormons for years, attempting to break through the deception of their doctrine. Every bit of my training and experience says that you will never be able to convince someone who is deceived through confrontation or conversations like we are having here. Scripture is clear that those who teach false doctrine are to be removed from our midst. The only time someone steps out of a cult is when God begins to cause them to question. I think that the discussion is not pointless, but it will ultimately be unfruitful, and I honestly don’t want to give a person who believes false teachings the opportunity to defend and propogate those teachings. So, I recommend that we stop interacting with Brenda and hope and pray that she is personally encountered by the Lord and by people who can help her understand her deception. Just my opinion, but like they say, “That’s my story, and I’m sticking with it.”
Good point, Cyle. I tend to agree. But let’s leave it up to the individual commenters at this point. Some may want some more interaction. This is, from my perspective, a pretty unique opportunity to express a clear apologetic.
Geoff, Or maybe Paul simply stated that someone was baptizing for the dead and that helped explain the belief in resurrection.
Cyle, I agree, it is ultimately unfruitful. Like I said, I’m not trying to convert anyone. Most LDS people are good people and deserve the respect that we give others.
I won’t stay where I’m not wanted. Thank you all for conversing with me. I’ve learned a lot from you. Thanks especially to Geoff.
Cyle,
I understand your point about dealing with members of cults. I, too, have dealt with many of them through the years. However, I disagree with your suggestion to discontinue this discussion. I believe a great deal of seed in being sown. Many people are reading this thread and we do not know that we are not reaching someone in the cult that does have real questions.
As the author of this post, I would prefer to continue the conversation, not necessarily for the sake of Brenda, but for the education of anyone else who may be exposed to the deception of Mormonism in the future as well as lurkers who may be questioning their involvement in the LDS church.
Brenda,
I disagree that our conversation is unfruitful. I would like to continue if you will. You have mentioned several times that Mormons are “good people.” Does being “good” get you to heaven?
Les
hi all, I’ve been following this blog for a while and its been very interesting and educational. I’ve had a thought for a while and wish to add my two cents. I think that a lot of confusions about the lds church could be answered by returning to the basics. I believe there is a reason why every question about lds doctrine can’t be explained in the bible. and that is that the church wasn’t founded on the bible, but created by Jesus christ. And since the bible has been written we believe (yes I’m a mormon) that additional scripture has been written and that many prophets have been called of god to continue to teach and proclaim the gospel.
please don’t misunderstand me. I love the bible and value its teachings greatly. and i’m not trying to start a crazy new tangent on whether or not there are more scriptures or prophets, Just pointing out my beliefs.
I’m just trying to be sincere, But we really do believe that there is a prophet today and twelve apostles that guide christ’s church.
I know this church is true because I read the book of mormon and I prayed about it. I recieved an answer, I felt the holy ghost, and I know, that that book is true.
tyler,
there are no more apostles around today, nor were there anymore after the 12. God used thier teachings to lead and guide the church into truth. for someone like joseph smith to come along later and say that God has given him another prophetic writing is not only wrong, but critically dangerous. the devil uses such things to mislead people and cause them to go to hell.
tyler, i’m praying that the Lord would open your heart and mind to THE TRUTH, the Lord Jesus Christ….the Jesus of the bible, God’s Word.
david
right, and like I said, I wasn’t hoping to start a new debate, I also feel that trying to convince each other on this site would be fruitless. I know there are scriptures that explain that several apostles were chosen to replace judas and others which tells me that it was an on going organization. But we could go for hours on which scripture says what, and surely never convince the other who is right. I can only tell you what I’ve found to be true. I never met Joseph Smith; the only way anyone could ever know whether or not he was a prophet would be to follow the councel of matthew 7:20 “by their fruits ye shall know them.” The Book of Mormon is his fruit and keystone of our religion. If its not scripture but just the conjurings of Joseph, then the whole church is false. But if its true, then he was a prophet, there is additional scripture, and Christ has restored his church through said man and everyone should be a part of it.
I also feel the desire to repeat what others have said, that I hope everyone can understand I try to maintain a humble tone and I’m not trying to preach anything. But I’ve come to learn that it really does come down to that. like I said before, the holy ghost told me that the book is true, and that has been more than sufficient for me. I would extend the same invitation to all, to ask god in prayer if it is true. Its the only sure fire way of knowing.
Tyler,
The Bible tells me your beliefs are untrue. I’m certain you’re hearing from someone and feeling some emotions, however, the true test of the “spirits” is that what you sense and feel lines up with Holy Scripture (the Bible alone).
I have a question for you. Would you please explain the gospel as you understand it?
Thanks.
Les
Well, this reminds me of something I found on my mission in South America. It was a typical response to hear, that we should just read the bible and everything would make sense. Yet as I looked around me, every church that we ran into was fighting with another church about something (I think the topic changed almost daily), and though they all used the Bible it never seemed to be sufficient to settle their doubts. I believe the Book of Mormon and the idea of more prophets and apostles goes right along with the teachings of the Bible but nevertheless, the only method of really knowing the truth is an answer from god.
(james 1:5-6 is my favorite)
to answer your question, the best and simplest way for me to answer that question would be all the teachings and commandments given us from Jesus Christ.
Tyler,
If I am understanding you correctly, the good news of Jesus Christ is that we keep his teachings and commandments. Is that your view of the gospel?
Also, two other questions.
1. If the Book of Mormon is authentic, why is there no archaeological evidence to support one sentence in it? The Bible has many archeaological supports for it.
2. If, as you say, the “idea of more prophets and apostles goes right along with the teachings of the Bible,” how do you align that with Heb. 1:1-2?
Regards,
Les
hi, yeah that sounds good.
1. you know, I’m really not an expert by any means on archaeological evidence, I did however find a wonderful site that talks alot about the evidence that has been found:
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_BMEvidence.shtml#arch
I think that more and more evidence will be discovered in the future, but for me, the answer to my prayer is much more important than physical evidence.
2. Ok, I can see how you got what you got from that scripture. But I don’t think it contradicts our beliefs at all. Christ was no longer on earth but continued to teach the people by way of his apostles. We simply believe that he continues to do so in our day. (ephesians 2:19-20, 4:11-14)
I’m still trying to avoid a fruitless debate over countless scriptures. I’ve just done it so much in my life and nothing ever comes from it. But I would enjoy further discussion or clarification of our beliefs and what they mean to us.
Tyler,
Okay, now help me understand your beliefs better. You agreed with my assessment of your definition of the gospel being keeping the teachings and commandments of Christ.
I’m curious. How is that “good news”? Is it possible to “keep” God’s commandments without error? What happens when I fail to keep a commandment?
Regards,
Les
Tyler,
It appears by your lack of response that this thread may have run its course. On the chance that you and Brenda may still be reading, let me tell you what the Bible says is the gospel (“good news”) of Jesus Christ.
1. All of us have sinned and have rebelled against God (Rom. 3:10, 23).
2. Our sin has separated us from God (Isa. 59:2).
3. The penalty for our sin is death and eternity in hell(Rom. 6:23; )
4. We cannot do anything to escape the punishment for our sin, which is death and hell (Eph. 2:8-9)
5. God loves you and does not want you to perish (John 3:16).
6. God sent His son, Jesus, to substitute Himself for you and take the punishment for your sin (Rom. 5:8; 1 Pet. 3:18).
7. Jesus was raised from the dead to show that He is God and He has conquered death, therefore when He says your sins are forgiven, you can believe Him (Rom. 4:25).
8. God has done everything necessary to save you from hell and reconcile you with Him (1 Pet. 3:18).
9. The good news is that you can be forgiven for all of your sin: past, present, and future, by trusting in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior (John 1:12; Rom. 10:9).
10. Further good news is that once you receive Jesus as Lord and Savior, you can rest in His assurance that He will cause you to endure until the end and when you physically die, you will be with Him forever (John 10:27-29).
This is the good news of authentic Christianity. Jesus brings us back to God the Father and we are with Him forever.
There is no other way to be saved for heaven and from hell (John 14:6). You cannot do enough good works or keep enough commandments to be “good enough” to deserve to be admitted into heaven (Eph. 2:8-9). Jesus is the only way.
One last thing. The Bible says that if anyone, even an angel, tells you a different gospel than the one I have just written to you, the Bible says “let him be accursed (Gal. 1:8-9).
It is my prayer that you will turn away from the works-based religion of Mormonism and receive the free gift of God (Jesus) and be eternally saved.
Thanks for the discussion.
Les
Les,
To dismiss another view as just a ‘rehash of pragmatism’ is not only convenient but a bit curious when you offer no reasons why.
With that, I am…
Peter
Hi Les, I have to respond. Again you don’t understand us.
We don’t work our way to heaven. We agree with your 10 points, but also include our personal responsibility, which is taught in the Bible, (‘Be ye therefore perfect . . .’). Jesus Christ is the only way. Without His grace, we are finished, nothing. He is our redeemer, because He redeemed us from our own sins. But personal responsibility in our behaviour and actions is also important, because it manifests our acceptance, faith and commitment to Christ. Repentance is vital when we have sinned. But without Christ, it is all for nothing. To us, receiving Christ means faith in Him, repentance, baptism, and obedience to His word. Obedience does involve works, but again, we don’t earn our way into heaven. That is erroneous doctrine that sets us up to fail.
Our gospel is the one taught in the Bible, not a different one spoken of by Paul to the Galatians.
Brenda,
Thank you for your response. Can you join another church, such as a baptist church, and still be in good fellowship with the LDS church?
Les
Peter,
As usual, we disagree. How about some sensitivity to the conversation at hand?
Les
Dear Les,
If you cannot and/or do not wish to converse about your caricature of the position I posted, I think that’s perfectly acceptable.
But to suggest that somehow the simple statement offered you as a conversation starter lacks ‘sensitivity to the conversation at hand’ is disingenuous at best, Les.
With that, I am…
Peter
Les,
sorry, I’ve been out and about. I think your explanation is excellent. But I do agree with Brenda that we do have personal responsibility. Of course we don’t have to be perfect to enter heaven. But we have to obey the commandments as best we can, or else why would we have them? I think James explains it very well. (james 1:22, 2:17-20). And about your other question, absolutely. I have many friends where I attend and if one of them were to choose another religion I would be very sad, but it would never affect our friendship.
thanks
whoops, sorry, I was using brenda’s computer and accidently left her name in the box. (she showed me the blog)
Les, What is your interpretation of being in good fellowship? Joining another church, would result in excommunication, which means one’s name is removed from LDS membership. We don’t practice shunning.
Brenda,
1. Why would joining another church result in excommunication from the LDS church?
2. How would that affect your salvation?
Les
Les, Your questions puzzle me.
1. Obviously, if you join one church, you must wish to not be a member of another. Please don’t try to lead me into a trap.
2. Every person who has ever lived will have the opportunity to hear and accept, or reject, the true gospel, whether in this life or the next. Christ’s atonement saved everyone, in that all will be resurrected. As to who will go to heaven? Christ will be the judge and I choose to leave that up to Him.
Throughout this entire conversation, I have defended and explained. Now I have a question for you. How can you possibly believe in a God who would send good and honorable people to hell? People who sincerely believe they are following His will? You don’t know me, yet you say I am going to hell. Also, what kind of God condemns people who have never heard of Christ nor had the chance to accept Him?
I fervently believe that the gospel of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true. I don’t believe other Christians are evil, believe me that just isn’t taught. The Bible is true, but it’s confusing. You know it’s confusing because of all the many religions that interpret it differently. The Book of Mormon simply fills in the gaps. It’s God’s way of clarifying and eliminating the confusion.
I know that comforting feeling of peace and assurance that comes from God through the Holy Ghost. He has answered my prayers and continues to do so. Satan brings doubt, emptiness, darkness. I know the difference.
I did some more looking on the lds.org website and found a picture of the cover of the Book of Mormon. Underneath the title are these words, “Another Testament of Jesus Christ”. To me, that is interesting.
Then, I found the King James Version of the Bible on the lds.org website and found these verses in Galatians:
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any bother gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
This was the apostle Paul speaking to the beleivers in Galatia.
Wouldn’t Joseph Smith and his encounter with Moroni fall into this category?
I’m not trying to antagonize; just understand.
Rick, Paul was aware of the coming of the great apostacy that was foretold in 2nd Thessalonians 2:2-3. There have been countless false doctrines preached throughout history. How does one know what to believe? Study the scriptures and ask God. This is exactly what Joseph Smith did at the age of 14. He read James 1:5-6, followed that counsel, and received an answer. We are all given the same promise. There need be no confusion.
Again, the gospel of the LDS church is the doctrine that Christ and his apostles taught in the Bible. It fits, it’s logical. Parts of the original writings of the prophets of old have been lost over the centuries and we know we don’t have all of Paul’s letters. The Bible has been passed down through many hands. The Lord knew this would happen so He prepared another text that would be kept untouched till He saw fit to bring it forth.
Is it offensive to you that Christ would minister to his people in America as He did in Jerusalem? They had no other hope of receiving the gospel. The Book of Mormon tells of His visit and records His teachings. He set up His church here just as He did there. Maybe Christ visited other civilizations also and the records are yet to come forth.
First of all, I appreciate your honesty. It brings me great insight into the mindset of LDS followers.
To specificially answer your question, it is not offensive to me that Christ would minister to his people in America. It is offensive to me that a myth is perpetuated as truth. (Since you were honest, I thought I’d be, too)
I don’t hate Mormons. I don’t hate Budhists. I don’t hate Muslims. I don’t hate atheists. In fact, I don’t hate anyone. What I do hate, however, is deception. I hate false prophets parading around as if from God. Not everyone who claims to be from God is from God; there are a lot of liars out there.
I watched Charlie Brown and the Great Pumpkin (or whatever it is called) the other night with my kids. Linus believed with all his heart that the Great Pumpkin would come and bring presents to all the good boys and girls. He endured ridicule. He endured persecution (of a manner). He endured the cold of night and missed out on the candy because he spent the night in the pumpkin patch. He even got a follower to believe with him. He was SINCERE in his faith. The only problem: he was sincerely wrong.
I’ve read the Book of Mormon, cover to cover. I did it asking God to reveal truth to me. The truth that God revealed to me was that the Book of Mormon was not true. That is my testimony. I felt no burning in my bossom as I was told I would. I felt no undeniable urge to believe it. I know Mormons are sincere. I know they ache to know the truth. I know they are faithful. I simply believe that Joseph Smith was deceived by the angel. The angel claimed to be from God, but presented a different gospel. The Bible says not to even believe an angel who brings a different gospel. And I found that in the LDS approved King James Bible, right off your own website.
I think that as sincere as Mormons are, they are sincerely wrong.
Again, I have to ask, would Joseph Smith’s encounter with the angel fall into the same category as warned? Since Moroni gave a supplemental gospel, wouldn’t the whole encounter and whatever he had to say then be suspect?
Respectfully,
Rick
Rick, And there we are at a stand still. How many people of the world think ALL religion is the ‘Great Pumpkin’? That we’re ALL kidding ourselves.
Your question isn’t being avoided. First of all, Joseph’s first vision didn’t involve an angel at all. He was visited by God the Father, and Jesus Christ. Moroni came later. Suppose Moroni did bring false doctrine? Moroni directed Joseph to the plates from which came the Book of Mormon. It always comes down to that book. If it’s true, then Joseph was telling the truth. If it’s false, then Joseph was a fraud.
You say you put it to the test by reading it and praying sincerely about it. I can only go by my own experience and the experiences of countless people I’ve heard throughout my life that it is true. I’ve seen lives changed from bad to good and from good to better because of that book.
I’ve never felt a burning in my bossom either. The Spirit of God can be felt in different ways. Sometimes answers don’t come immediately (don’t we wish they would!) but little by little over time.
Here’s a question for you: If the Book of Mormon is a fraud, then how did it come to be? Where did it come from? Who wrote it? It seems like, for over 180 years, the whole world has been actively trying to discredit the Book of Mormon. Yet here it is still.
You know, honestly, when different people on this “blog” direct me to Bible verses (verses which can be taken different ways) to support their views, I always find those very verses surrounded by others that support mine. It’s like you’re focusing on a single tree and ignoring the forest. The Book of Mormon fits with the Bible like that missing puzzle piece, that when you pop it in, suddenly the whole picture is clear.
I too, appreciate your honestly and have never felt hate from anyone here.
Brenda,
No trap intended. Christians have no problem with someone moving from one denomination to another. No one is excommunicated because we do not believe that “church” saves: Jesus saves. My concern is that the LDS church believes they are the “one, true church.” To believe that you must belong to a particular church is a classic hallmark of a cult.
Now I will address your questions to me.
You said, “How can you possibly believe in a God who would send good and honorable people to hell? People who sincerely believe they are following His will? You don’t know me, yet you say I am going to hell. Also, what kind of God condemns people who have never heard of Christ nor had the chance to accept Him?”
1. God does not send “good and honorable” people to hell because there are no good and honorable people. The bible clearly teaches that we have all rebelled against God. We are all sinners under the sentence of death and deservedly so. What is amazing is not that God sends people to hell. What is amazing is that God, in His grace and mercy, chooses to save anyone through the blood of Christ.
2. The old saying, “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” is applicable here. Sincerity has nothing to do with salvation. Muslims are just as sincere in their faith as you are. So are Hindus, Buddhists, and other world religions. But Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” (John 14:6). As for you, your own words communicate that you do not believe in the Christ of the Bible. You may be sincere, but I am concerned that you are sincerely wrong.
I believe in both heaven and hell because Jesus taught both very clearly.
As for those who have never heard, Romans chapter one says that all people have been exposed to God’s revelation and they are “without excuse.”
Les
Les, Wow. I am dumbfounded. Is this really Baptist doctrine? Who is this God whom you describe? I have never heard of anything so hopeless and bleak. Your gospel isn’t good news, it’s more like a threat, a curse, because it allows only a small percentage of humanity a chance.
I get an entirely different message from the Bible. The gospel I know is one of hope and of God’s love for me, you, and all mankind. It’s one of infinite justice and fairness, that does not condemn people for what they’ve never been taught. Romans 1 speaks of those who have been taught the truth and then reject it.
My God wants happiness for all His children, just as we, as parents, want it for our children. He sent His beloved son, Jesus Christ, to take upon Himself our sins, so that we can return to Him. This also involves faith, repentance, obedience to His commandments, and ultimately His grace. There will be a way for all people to hear the true gospel, but not all will be able to hear it in this life. We will be judged by what’s in our hearts.
My God allows families to be together forever, to enjoy the same bonds that we have here on earth.
When I compare my Christianity with what I’ve read here, I’ll take mine.
Brenda,
You have no idea how much I appreciate your honesty and your effort to accurately answer the questions posed to you. In my years of interacting with Mormons, I’ve never had any answers to my questions so eloquently articulated. Thank you.
You are correct; I suppose we are at a stand still. You believe it is true; I do not. And trust me, that doesn’t make me “mad” at you. After all, I don’t even know you. Certainly a dialogue in a comments section of a blog entry will convince neither of us to change our minds or change our position.
Now, you have asked for my opinion about the Book of Mormon. You asked me how it came to be, where it came from, who wrote it. My sincere, honest opinion is this which answers all three questions: it came from the imagination of Joseph Smith. You are right when you say that it all comes down to that book. It comes down to the credibility of the book and its origin, and the one who brought it to light. If, indeed, there were gold tablets, then there would be evidence of them. If, indeed, there were ancient cultures and peoples that Jesus ministered to in the Americas, there would be credible, independent archeolgoical evidence. In my opinion, Joseph Smith lied. The apostles continue the lie. Mormon missionaries carry this lie around the world to a world that is already lost and dying.
Brenda, you say the Book of Mormon fills in the gaps. I say it just doesn’t make any sense at all. You say it fits like a puzzle piece; I say it is a piece that belongs to a whole separate puzzle. I believe that the warning in Galatians applies directly to Joseph Smith and his visions. I believe that he was not a prophet of God. I believe that the Book of Mormon is not true. I believe the teachings of LDS is based on a deception and they continue to perpetuate that deception to this day.
You have brought up some incredible insights into LDS beliefs in your last post to Les. Since it was addressed to him, I’ll let him answer you.
Thanks ~ and know that I am praying for you and Mormons around the world!
Brenda,
The fact you do not see any hope in the true gospel of Jesus Christ speaks volumes about the level of deception in the LDS church. Christianity is all about hope. I have detailed that hope in my response about the biblical gospel.
I will continue to pray for you and the entire LDS church that you will turn to the true Jesus of the Bible.
Thanks for the conversation.
Les
Rick, It’s a common assumption that Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon. I am enclosing a portion of an article written by Hugh B. Brown: (Sorry, it’s a little long.)
******
“I believe the Prophet Joseph Smith was a prophet because he did many superhuman things. One was translating the Book of Mormon. Some people will not agree, but I submit to you that the Prophet Joseph Smith in translating the Book of Mormon did a superhuman work. I ask you … to undertake to write a story on the ancient inhabitants of America. Write as he did without any source of material. Include in your story 54 chapters dealing with wars, 21 historical chapters, 55 chapters on visions and prophecies, and, remember, when you begin to write on visions and prophecies you must have your record agree meticulously with the Bible. You write 71 chapters on doctrine and exhortation, and, here too, you must check every statement with the scriptures or you will be proven to be a fraud. You must write 21 chapters on the ministry of Christ, and everything you claim He said and did and every testimony you write in your book about Him must agree absolutely with the New Testament.
“I ask you, would you like to undertake such a task? I would suggest to you too that you must employ figures of speech, similes, metaphors, narrations, exposition, description, oratory, epic, lyric, logic, and parables. Undertake that, will you? I ask you to remember that the man that translated the Book of Mormon was a young man who hadn’t had the opportunity of schooling that you have had, and yet he dictated that book in just over two months and made very few, if any, corrections. For over 100 years, some of the best students and scholars of the world have been trying to prove from the Bible that the Book of Mormon is false, but not one of them has been able to prove that anything he wrote was not in strict harmony with the scriptures.”
******
Joseph Smith had only a 4th grade education. He came from a poor family of farmers, living in small rural towns in the early 1800′s. He had no resources to draw from to write the Book of Mormon, other than the family bible. It’s simply impossible that he wrote it.
Where are the gold plates today? They were handed back to the angel Moroni, but not before they were seen and held by 11 other men who signed their names as witnesses.
Archeological evidence? Tyler mentioned a good website in his post dated 11/2, 7:32 p.m. But if the Book of Mormon was supported by indesputable physical evidence, would it really change your mind?
Thank you for your kind words and prayers.
Les, Traditional Christianity as you describe it, gives hope to those few people who were fortunate to find it in their lifetime. But not to the millions who were not so fortunate and are counted as “sinners under the sentence of death”. Indeed Christ is the only way, but some will not have the opportunity to accept or reject Him in this life. Some will have their chance in the next life; hence the need for baptism for the dead. This is hope for all.
Les
Your argument against Mormons is the same argument the Pharisees used against Christ–he must be from the devil because he didn’t see things their way. And Jesus’ response said, if you won’t believe me, then believe in the works I do.” By your own admission the Mormons do good works, and yet you will not even take Jesus’ counsel on that. Your line of their good works isn’t the same as our good works because we are right! Instead you will demonize a whole group of people just as extremists do today and feel God expects you to use your religion to hate and persecute others. At least Mormon doctrine allows people the freedom of religion which so many men and women of our nation fought and died for–in your America, people are only free if they believe what you believe, and to me that is definitely NOT the message Christ intended.
Just to throw out this fact about Mormons when they get in a position of power..
The last time a Mormon was head of US immigration, it was almost impossible for Christians to get visas to come work in the US for Christian organizations and many workers who were at that time working for Christian organizations in the US had their visa’s revoked.
Mormons do use their power to create an agenda for their church..
Be warned
Ben
Hey, are you just throwing out “facts” just like in Roe vs. Wade where attorneys who wanted abortion rights simply invented or infated statistics to get what they wanted? You are a liar my friend and your hatred for Mormons won’t be justification for that! Oh and by the way, even if your accusation was true, what one Mormon does should not be a condemnation for every Mormon. Just because some “Christian” Preacher protests soldier’s funerals with signs about how God hates gays and is punishing the nation for them, doesn’t mean every Christian should be held accountable.
I am glad to see that someone sees Mormonism for what it is–a cult. For those who question whether that is a problem in politics, I would refer you to the book published October 2007 by Rocky Hulse, “When Salt Lake City Calls”. It can be ordered through Amazon, Xulon, or Mr. Hulse himself. His website is http://www.mormonoutreach.org/
It explains the beliefs of Mormonism, why there is a conflict in public trust, and the goals of political involvement by Mormons. Mitt Romney was not the first Mormon to run for president. I believe there have been 4, including Joseph Smith himself while he lived in Nauvoo, IL.
Leave your response!
Want your picture to show here? Get your own Gravatar!
Recent Posts
Most Commented
Hot Topics