The Potty-Mouth Pastor
I grew up in an auto body shop. My dad made his living working on cars, a craft he had honed at his father’s side, and I desired to do the same. However, dad would not let me, wanting me to “do better than he did.” He did allow me to do odd jobs around the shop and a natural love for cars emerged. I have a shade-tree mechanic’s knowledge and a love for the muscle car generation, characteristic of the late sixties and early seventies. I can tell the difference between a ’67 and a ’69 Mustang Fastback from a mile away. That education I attribute to my old man.
There was a different education that I can attribute more so to the environment than my old man, though he nonetheless was a contributor. A body shop does not lend itself to hanging out with the most savory of men. The language tended to get pretty foul, like a group of young men in basic training developing the camaraderie that young men do. My dad was skilled in the art of profanity. Like a master craftsman, he could weave a tapestry of obscenity that to my knowledge, still hangs in the troposphere above Spartanburg, SC.
By the time I was in sixth grade, I could swear with the best of them. Even at the tender age of twelve, I could make a sailor blush. My ability to swear was unrivaled. I say all that to say this: I know profanity when I hear it. I also know this: profanity has no place soiling the lips of a born-again Christian; especially pastors. One of the first things to go when I became a Christian was my long hair. The second thing was to scour the mouth clean. The hair was easy; one snip of the scissors and my pony tail lay at my feet like some viper having uncoiled itself from my neck.
The mouth was considerably more difficult. I discovered that I could not express myself without the use of profanity. It was easy to dispense with the use of the multi-syllabic type. It was clear that those words were horrible and potentially unbiblical expression. However, those one-syllable, easily utterable ones were a bane. Even when I discovered God’s call to go into the ministry, I would find myself upon becoming annoyed that the use of a choice word here or there placated my sore and bruised ego.
Having begun seminary and a new job, a young lady, unsaved and non-religious to the core, was training me. I had bungled a particular task that had some serious consequences and realizing my mistake, it happened. (No, it wasn’t the queen mother of dirty words, but horrible nonetheless.) I dropped one. Out loud. Embarrassment. Humiliation. Profound grief. Sorrow. “I thought you were training to be a pastor.”
Any credibility as a Christian witness I had amassed with this young lady was trashed in one moment of unbridled, fleshly, self-satisfaction. My heart broken, ego wounded (which it needed to be), and spirit crushed, I slinked home that evening like the dirty dog I was. It had never really settled on me how important the use of words is. Of late it has been said that profanity is becoming more and more vogue among younger ministers of the Gospel. This trend is fascinating to me. Must we use words that are by and large unacceptable, words that cause a generally wholesome movie to leap from a G rating to PG-13 with only the addition of a few syllables? Can we not express ourselves intelligently enough without resorting to some crude obscenity to make a point?
I was shocked—SHOCKED—when in a pastors’ meeting and the swear words of the monosyllabic type were flying as regularly as the name of the Savior whom we worship. As I was departing the meeting with one of my brother pastors, he remarked simply and unequivocally, “Man, we need to be able to get together once in a while and say ______ when we need to.” In my estimation we are caught in a trap between two lies.
- We can entertain the sin and pretend that it will not consume us from within.
- We can hold the sin at bay and determine that we will never deal with it.
There are far too many Christians, not just pastors, making excuses for the sins they justify in their own lives. So we need to dumb down the Christian message, chuck in a choice profane element to dress up the point, and justify it in the name of “meeting the sinners where they are”? Come up with clever renderings of Scripture to cover the shame of resorting to that heartless and senseless vocabulary, but in the end the shame is only multiplied.
Neither option is acceptable. Both belie the nature of the heart within. Flip-flopping between the two extremes, we are dropping all of our hard rock albums off at Goodwill because they are evil and the next moment we are buying them back off of eBay because to the pure, all things are pure. Hal Lane, writing in a recent ERLC column, said:
Christians are called upon to live differently and to act differently than the world of unbelievers. I do not need to speak profanity to win a cursing unbeliever anymore than I need to drink alcohol to win an alcoholic. The words of Scripture have all the potency and power we need to reach the heart of the lost.
The world and the devil hurl many obstacles in the paths of unwary Christians. However, the reason we cannot reach the goal line of the Great Commission is because we are tripping over our own players. As those who have been entrusted to carry the bread of life to a world that is begging for food, why, oh why would we attempt to deliver it to them in dirty containers?
You are so right! I realize as well that not only do curse words from a Christian stick out like a sore thumb, but any kind of trash talk: gossip, jokes, etc. Our speech, our actions, our attitudes–they are under a microscope. People really do love to see us slip up, don’t they?
Hey Tony,
Interesting article, our testimonies are somewhat similar. Except my mother taught me to swear like a sailor… and my hair was shaved when I was saved. But I did stop swearing almost immediately after being saved.
That said, my hair is now long (in fact it is in an ‘almost’ pony tail right now). And I do not think it is wrong to swear. I definitely would be cautious to call it “sin” especially when that cannot be supported with scripture. The problem really lies at our presuppositions. That was the problem with your lost friend. At the time, had you been confident with the scripture, you could have used that moment to share Christ with her… to help her understand that her “impression” of the Christian culture had been skewed by legalists.
From a philosophical point of view, shoot and sh*t (I do that for your benefit), mean the exact same thing. It is all in the intent. If I stub my toe and say “DARN IT!” is there really a different intent than saying “D*MN IT!” No not really… it just how how we have trained ourselves to cuss without cussing.
I suppose to take your position to its logical extreme, we should never exclaim anything when something negative happens.
Now with all that said, I do not think I am one of those people who needs to “come up with clever renderings of Scripture to cover the shame of resorting to that heartless and senseless vocabulary.” Rather I need to read those scriptures in context, with grace, and then I see that I should always use edifying words in conversation, etc. Including the almost-swears (like, shoot, darn, heck). We also find that these scriptures have no application to casual swearing, such as when you stub your toe or accidentally cut your arm off.
By the way, I agree with Hal Lane, we do not need to do these things to disciple the lost. We don’t need to wear ties every Sunday morning or only listen to “Christian” music either. That doesn’t mean doing those things is wrong or sin.
Just my two cents.
God’s Glory,
Lew
The Pursuit Online Store
When my grandfather was saved as a middle aged man, the first thing he was convicted to change was his profanity. HCSB translates Eph. 4:29 “No rotten talk should come from your mouth…” Pastors who use the “rotten talk” of our world are, at best, insensitive to our cultural context. No “freedom in Christ” reasoning justifies “rotten talk” spewing.
I’m reminded of Tevia in Fiddler On The Roof. Two men were arguing a point, and Tevia said to the first one, “He’s right.” Then when the second disagreed with the first, he said, “He’s right, too.”
Tony, I agree, especially with the quote from the ERLC, “I do not need to speak profanity to win a cursing unbeliever anymore than I need to drink alcohol to win an alcoholic.”
Lew, I agree, too with what I perceive as the heart of your comment. We can have long hair, wear floral shirts and sandals, and disciple the lost. If I could get away with it, I might still have my pony tail. I also agree that there is very little difference between the words like shoot and darn that we have “sanitized” and the words that we have classified as “cuss” words.
I think that Scripture does point out a few issues. First, Scripture clearly addresses foul and course speach. No, saying “shoot” isn’t taking the Lord’s name in vain. But, using many other words is clearly not acceptable if our goal is to reflect Christ. And, above impressing the culture, our goal should be glorifying the Lord by imitating His Son. Second, I don’t know anyone who has started following Christ who, at some point, hasn’t been impressed by Him to change the way they speak. Third, when evaluating what is foul and what is not, we have to evaluate the language and the culture in which it is spoken. I used to raise dogs, and the word for a female dog always sounded like a curse word to me, but in context it was not. Yet I cannot imagine “s_ _ _” being used in any context in which it is considered anything other than course language, which Scipture tells us to avoid.
What’s the goal? If it is to talk like I want, I’ll do it. If it is to glorify Christ, I’ll do that. If it is to disciple the lost, I don’t have to talk like I want. Do I? And, by talking like I want, do I increase the changes of disicpling the lost and glorifying God?
Lew,
I appreciate your comment and the thoughtfulness. Pushing my argument to the logical extreme may call for refusing to say anything when I accidentally chop my arm off, but to push yours to its extreme, should I then regularly use in conversation? Profane and coarse speech from the pulpit? Teach my children how to swear?
Perhaps my judgment as a newbie at seminary was skewed. Nevertheless, the young lady had been culturally conditioned to the way she expected a Christian to talk and particularly the way a pastor should talk. No, I do not think we should succumb to the ways of the world, but I must be sensitive to the context I am ministering in and if profanity offends, then I should stop it.
Missionaries spoke in the church I serve not too long ago. Part of the culture in which they ministered was that wives should have their noses pierced, similar to our wearing wedding bands. She found it horrid because she had been culturally conditioned that nose piercing represented a particular type of person.
However, desiring to become all things to all men that she might by all means save some, she had her nose pierced, even against what she perceived as better judgment. A pierced nose is not inherently sinful. Neither is swearing, but we have to understand and be sensitive to our culture to minister, to win the lost, and to glorify God.
If my goal and intent is to talk however I want, then something is inherently wrong with my heart, for then I have elevated my desires above that of the Lord, and He says that coarse jesting and filthy talk should be put away.
Lew,
You said, “I definitely would be cautious to call it “sin” especially when that cannot be supported with scripture.” I suggest you read James 3, my friend.
It sounds to me like you’re saying, “Since the Bible does not say, ‘Thou shalt not use profanity.’ then I must have the liberty to speak with profanity.”
Taken to its logical extreme, your argument would also give us liberty to watch pornography, or even download pornographic pictures of children … since neither are actually forbidden by Scripture.
Contrary to your claim, I believe there are ample Scriptures that remind us of the importance of holy words and right speech.
Just to name a few …
May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer. – Psalm 19:4
My mouth speaks what is true,for my lips detest wickedness. All the words of my mouth are just; none of them is crooked or perverse. – Proverbs 8:7-8
Wisdom will save you from the ways of wicked men,from men whose words are perverse … Proverbs 2:12
Words from a wise man’s mouth are gracious, but a fool is consumed by his own lips. – Ecclesiastes 10:12
Lew, the issue here is not liberty. This discussion is about holiness. It is about the value and integrity of our Christian witness. Even the lost woman that Tony talked about knew the value of holiness from the mouth of a man who would be God’s prophet and teacher. One would hope that people who are inhabited by the Holy Spirit would have a similar insight.
Can you not see the inconsistency of a person who would stand in front of Christ’s church and proclaim the Word of God one minute, then the next utter profane, frivolous, senseless words the next?
James, the brother of our Lord, said it all too well …
With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God’s likeness. Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? (James 3:9-11)
And then there is the issue of our witness. Paul reminded us:
So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved. (1 Corinthians 10:31-33)
Lew, this isn’t about you … it’s about the people who are watching you. I lovingly encourage you to re-think your position on this, my brother.
I had four thoughts as I read this post.
1) Some things are no brainers: I would not use “queen mother of dirty words” in the pulpit or anywhere else.
2) I am offended, not just by the spiritual implications, but by the lack of imagination involved in cussing. “You have how many years of higher education? And @#&%$**#$$ is the best you can come up with?”
3) I’m willing to cut new Christians a break. If they are from a part of our culture where certain words are part of the norm and they happen to let them fly during a testimony, I’m okay with that.
4) Regarding Cyle’s comment:”…when evaluating what is foul and what is not, we have to evaluate the language and the culture in which it is spoken.” How true. I can thing of some words and phrases that offended my grandmother that I do not consider (then or now) to be cussing. She on the other hand, used some words that I would NEVER use (particularly when describing race relations).
I’m detecting multiple, intentional references to “A Christmas Story.”
Anybody have any Lifebuoy? ;)
Lew,
Having read your blog somewhat, I believe the issues that you bring to fore are a little more deep than just mere curse words. Suffice it to say (without fully going into an interchange on this subject, and respecting Tony on his post) that I believe that your perspective of Scripture is defective. Does the rendering of James, or the Psalms, or Paul’s epistles, the gospels, or even Proverbs which discuss the subject (or even the word of Jesus, “for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks”) or more have any sort of a priori importance, or are these writings subject to an a posteriori construct since it is questionable that what is penned in the Bible is subject to question and fallibility? If we are free then to use any language at our pleasure without penalty or loss of witness, what other subjects can Christians address without fear because of a fallible biblical witness? Adultery? Pornography? Murder? These questions may seem absurd, but you are the one who has brought them to fore. If you eliminate the edges as nonsense, then what does the “big stuff” have left to stand upon?
Rob
Geoff,
Hence the veiled link in the post. And since my dad worked auto body, we had plenty of Lava lying around. Now that stuff is nasty. I wonder if anyone ever died or became blind because of soap poisoning… :)
Tony, great article. I am not a highly educated individual, but I have always found it somewhat humorous how some highly educated people can think of no better words to use than those who dwell in the gutters of the streets.
As a matter of fact I have seen of uneducated people use better words than the educated.
When someone thinks they have offended me by their cursing, and say they are sorry. The reply sometimes is, “It is only a matter of a lack of intelligence”.
You would think that educated people could talk better than uneducated people.
Geoff,
ROTFL!
Rob
Tony: admirable and timely post. I was taught as a child every word under the sun. From my stepmother’s mouth flowed not milk and honey, but trash. I wasn’t a Christian–she sang gospel songs one minute and cussed a blue streak the next. Know how I knew it was wrong? My teachers didn’t use that language. I only heard my stepmother use it.
As I grew up the words were so embedded in my brain, it was easy to use them when I got out into the “world” of adults. When I became a Christian, words took on new meaning for me in every sense of the phrase. Culture should never determine our behavior or our language. It does, but it shouldn’t.
It truly bothers me when I cannot listen to the news without hearing the continual flow of cursing. It bothers me that every time the news commentators denounce something as sinful–or pure trash–as in the new Hardee’s buns commercial, they feel compelled to have the trash they are denouncing running in my face. But that is the world. And the world and its ways are desensitizing the opinions of the righteous.
Thank you, Tony. This is very needed in today’s say anything and do anything you feel like doing mindset.
We are, as Christians, to be in the world, but not of it.
Gentlemen, you have spoken “apples of gold” here today to Lew. Blessings to all. selahV
Rob, this is for you, man. Enjoy! :)
Geoff: how funny! and now that you mention it, I wonder why my stepmother washed my mouth out with soap. wonder what I said. I remember the soap…eeeyuk, but can’t remember what I said. Must have been a real cleansing, huh? selahV
Yummy – the fact is I used to like that movie until TNT started showing it 24 hours straight beginning Christmas Eve.
Rob
Hey everyone, I guess I opened up a can of worms, huh? It is probably best for me to respond from the top:
doug munton
As I said in my very brief testimony. One of the first things that was changed for me after being saved was how I used my language. However, I think you may be taking Eph. 4:28 out of context a little. “Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.” – Clearly talking about using words that build up other believers and non-believers. Darn is just as damaging as d*mn when you stub your toe – or not damaging at all.
Cyle
I appreciate your humility in this discussion. I have never seen Fiddler On The Roof but have wanted to, for quite some time. I have heard very good things about it. I would like to comment on a few of your listed items:
1. I agree, scripture does address speach, but in the context of edifying one-another – not in the context of dropping a bowling ball on your foot.
2. I agree 100%, even I was impressed by him to change the way I speak.
3. I agree with this too. I have heard the testimony of a man from over the pond who visited a group in Geogria. Apparently where he is from it is perfectly acceptable to say d*mn – not so much here.
Tony Sisk
Your point is actually a small failure in logic. My position is actually neutral, not that we should do something. While yours is we “should” (or… should not) do something. The extreme of neutrality is not anything but neutrality.
I also agree when you said, “If my goal and intent is to talk however I want, then something is inherently wrong with my heart, for then I have elevated my desires above that of the Lord.”
But I have to separate this, “and He says that coarse jesting and filthy talk should be put away.” First, what is “coarse jesting” and “filthy talk” – How have your pressuppositions defined those terms? What does the context of those verses reveal to us?
Geoff Baggett
I read and re-read James 3 and couldn’t find where it says that swearing is a sin. I did see that it would be a sin to use words that destroyed or brought down our brothers and sisters. Which can be done with or without cussing… and cussing does not necesitate destroying a brother and/or sister.
You said, “It sounds to me like you’re saying, “Since the Bible does not say, ‘Thou shalt not use profanity.’ then I must have the liberty to speak with profanity.””
I’m sorry if that was the impression I gave. As a communicator, sometimes we all need to be a little better at presenting our arguments, I am not beyond this rule. As, James 3, clearly reveals to us, we should not use words that are not edifying, any word (including curse words).
You mention pornography, I think scripture does appeal to this. Paul told us that all things are lawful for us but not all things are profitable. So, yes, we do have the liberty but that doesn’t mean we should.
Psalm 19:4 – Does d*mn, sh*t, cr*p, H*ll, offended God?
Proberbs 2:12,8:7-8 – Are d*mn, sh*t, cr*p, H*ll, crooked and perverse words?
Ecclesiastes 10:12 – Agreed – wise words are gracious.
Perhaps it isn’t our vocabulary that offends God, but what we actually “say” when we speak.
I think the lost woman that Tony talked about at most knew the value of tradition… if she knew the value of holiness, she probably would not have been lost. After all, the value is Faith, not works.
You asked, “Can you not see the inconsistency of a person…”
Yes I can, if they are truly “frivolous” and “senseless”… but I would say the same about a person who “frivolously” and “senselessly” said darn, shoot, heck, etc.
I agree with what James and Paul wrote.
I know it’s not about me, that’s why I posted. I want others to see that they do not have to feel condemned all the time. I barely, if ever, cuss.
Rob Ayers
Thanks for taking the time to visit my blog and reading some of my posts! I really do appreciate it, in all seriousness. I will let you wrestle with some of the questions you posed to me, but I will say, again that I agree with Paul. All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. So yes, we are “free” to us any langauge at anytime… but it is not always profitable. And do not worry, if we do make a mistake the “penalty” was alread paid for us by him.
By the way, I do not think your questions are absurd, they are right one track. I think the “big stuff” has the Holy Spirit’s guidance to stand on. Afterall, Christ is our foundation.
Thanks everyone for responding to my pitiful comment. I hope that I have not offended you by my position. I fully believe that words are just that, words. And that we need to be Christians who rely more on God than on laws. When we are doing this, we will know when to use and not use certain words. We will have a humble spirit, and we will see true change.
I will not respond to any further comments on this particular post. I hope that I have made my position more clear. If I haven’t than forgive me.
God’s Glory,
Lew
The Pursuit Online Store
Hey Lew,
Sometimes you need to open up the worms in order to catch some fish. Discussion and civil exchange of ideas over the issues that effect us is what this is all about.
Cyle
After reading the post and most of the comments its obviously what we’re talking about here is Holiness. It doesn’t come natural. Done of God’s attributes never come naturally. They are given to us by the grace of God. Growing in grace (holiness) is a that core of our walk. There are missteps, with are mouth on a regular basis, praise Him for forgiveness. Just as we ask Him for that forgiveness to restore fellowship; we must ask those who hear our fallen tongues for forgiveness to restore our witness. Control of our mouths begins with our desire for being like Christ. No desire, no holiness, no control of our mouth, our drinking, our web searching, …
Gentlemen,
Apparently none of you have the same set of great photos of Jesus that I do. The only reason He didn’t wear a pony tail is that rubber bands hadn’t been invented yet.
Lew,
I appreciate your cordiality in this discussion. Regardless of whether or not you respond, I will post a response for the benefit of our other readers.
You accuse me of a failure in logic…unfortunately that is not the case. You say you are neutral yet you pushed the argument to the extreme to benefit your position. You cannot afford me the same benefit? This is a dodge, Lew. The case IS between “should” and “should not”.
You said, First, what is “coarse jesting” and “filthy talk” – How have your pressuppositions [sic] defined those terms? What does the context of those verses reveal to us? Indeed, what does context reveal? Obviously that Paul is not neutral concerning language. Paul is talking about exercising supernatural virtues as a regenerated individual, in the power of the Holy Spirit, and putting away natural vices, language included. Yes, it does matter how we say what we say, but also what we say.
Do you seriously think there was no such things as coarse jesting and filthy talk during Paul’s time and that it really meant something different then than what it means now, brother? This is fascinating.
I wholeheartedly agree that the penalty for our sins has been paid by the sacrificial death of our Savior on the cross. But your position sounds deleteriously like license, and barely one step away from antinomianism.
Grace, that both of us may understand the truth of God’s Word. God bless Lew.
Great post – thanks for the reminder.
Wow Tony, great post and now I have to go see Mr. Webster so that I might not be deleteriously illiterate! With verbage like that I should think we could all come up with more accurate expletives – offensive or not!
Lew,
I do not desire to sound blithe, or unappreciative of your cordiality. I also do not desire to sound arrogant when I say that the questions I proffered I have already settled. Not that I have ceased to struggle with them still, but the struggle is less intense than it is with you.
The Word of the LORD for those who will listen:
Aleph
“Blessed are those whose way is blameless,
who walk in the law of the Lord!
2 Blessed are those who keep his testimonies,
who seek him with their whole heart,
3 who also do no wrong,
but walk in his ways!
4 You have commanded your precepts
to be kept diligently.
5 Oh that my ways may be steadfast
in keeping your statutes!
6 Then I shall not be put to shame,
having my eyes fixed on all your commandments.
7 I will praise you with an upright heart,
when I learn your righteous rules. [2]
8 I will keep your statutes;
do not utterly forsake me!” Psalm 119:1-8 ESV
The LAW of the LORD here is what is encouraged for the believer to embrace for them to live HOLY lives, not lives of license. Listen to what is listed under Biet:
“9 How can a young man keep his way pure?
By guarding it according to your word.
10 With my whole heart I seek you;
let me not wander from your commandments!
11 I have stored up your word in my heart,
that I might not sin against you.
12 Blessed are you, O Lord;
teach me your statutes!
13 With my lips I declare
all the rules [3] of your mouth.
14 In the way of your testimonies I delight
as much as in all riches.
15 I will meditate on your precepts
and fix my eyes on your ways.
16 I will delight in your statutes;
I will not forget your word.”
The key verse is 13: “With my lips I declare all the rules of your mouth” How can we declare Him by uttering rough and course language?
Rob
Jerry,
You are bad.
Rob
I knew a mechanic who had a sign up over his workbench. It read this way:
Profanity is the attempt of a feeble mind trying to express itself forcefully.
I’ll never forget that sign.
I am late to this, but I have always thought it hypocritical to find it necessary to control your speech around your grandmother and your children, but let it all out when you are around the boys (or other pastors?!!) or when you hit your thumb with a hammer. Self-control is a fruit of the Spirit.
I want tell a short story. I have a friend, an ordained pastor, that joined a “progressive” church in the last few years that holds the same view as Lew. I had never heard cursing from his mouth in the years I had known him before this. Once, because of haste, I left an anonymous message on his wife’s blog that was a totally innocent statement that he somehow thought was offensive. He responded on his wife’s blog and proceeded to cuss me out and call me all sorts of hateful things (like “conservative fundamentalist”:-)). He would be horrified if he ever found out that he was saying those things to me. Why would it be alright for him to say it to an anonymous person and not to me if he really thought there was nothing wrong with it?
I think that if we are seeking to please God over man, which includes ourselves, we will have one set of standards no matter who we are talking to.
Liz
Luke,
I have seen that particular sign before. My dad, even though he worked on cars as well, did not have that sign; it was something just a bit different. Thanks for dropping in.
Liz,
Better late than never! Thank you for joining the discussion. Your story is certainly apt for it mirrors the problem with our pastors’ group getting together and feeling like we can “let it all hang out” because we are all “mature Christians” here and “we understand” one another. Out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.
My grandmother used to say if you squeeze a lemon and something besides lemon juice comes out, then it isn’t a lemon. When a Christian is put under pressure is when God proves who we really are. Those are the revealing moments of our walk that oftentimes uncovers those subtle sins overlooked. That was my case–it was not until I became so annoyed with myself for having bungled that particular task on that job and having let an expletive fly, that I discovered profanity was a problem.
It is hypocritical to think that we would ever get comfortable with sin, no matter who we are near. If I use filthy talk around my wife but yet not around the elderly ladies in the congregation I serve, am I Christlike or just noble, being sensitive to the feelings of those ladies? Thanks, Liz, for dropping in and commenting. God bless for a great weekend and Lord’s Day tomorrow.
Tony-
I am just catching up on some blogs and this one really made me think.
How do we reconcile the profane (and I think this extends to much more than just the words we speak) with the sacred? Or should we? If so, why?
When Paul advised a young pastor, he made a point of telling him to clean up (purge) himself of that which was dishonorable (profane). That included everything from youthful lusts to foolish talk, because the goal of Timothy’s ministry was to be an honorable vessal, set apart and useful for His Master’s use. Paul didn’t tell Timothy to wear a suit and tie…He did tell him to be a suitable vessel.
“And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.” (2 Tim. 2:24-26)
Those are the qualities Christ Himself showed. He may have lived with crude fishermen and have eaten with publicans and sinners, but the only ones offended by His speech were those trying to justify their own sin. Would parents have brought their children to Him if they thought they might have to censor what He said?
Would we say the things we do if we thought Jesus would have to cover someone’s ears?
Something to think about.
Kat
Kat,
I think I am understanding the heart of your comment, meaning that it really matters not so much who we are on the outside. What matters, like 1 Samuel 16:7 says, what is on the inside. To mix the sacred and the profane reveals a level of worldliness in our hearts we are unwilling to let go of. It pollutes, corrupts, and defiles. As James says, out of the same spring cannot flow both fresh and bitter water.
You said, the only ones offended by His speech were those trying to justify their own sin. Amen, Kat. Amen.
Thank you, Tony, for condensing my steam on that one. Perfect distillation.
Kat
Is it possible that this whole mix up is due to equivocation or at least a variation in definitions? I am on board with Lew on this issue and have read through these comments and find none of the arguments presented to be compelling. Why? Do I have a low view of Scripture? No. Am I one of those Progressive Liberals? No (at least I don’t think). The reason is that I agree with every Scripture quoted and completely agree that course, hateful, filthy, and so on language is wrong. What these arguments fail to explain is why certain words are put within this canon. Why is Sh*t crass or filthy but poop is not? They mean the same thing. Then I read that the culture defines it, but then I read further and find out that the culture finds this language to be acceptable and the Christians should be different from the culture. So who says these words fit the criteria of any of the references made to Scripture? What’s the difference in your kid saying that he has to “sh*t” or that he has to “poop”? Nothing, these words mean exactly the same thing, but somehow one has an inherent filthiness while the other does not. If you can make a Biblical case for why this should be then I am on board with you. Until then all I see is equivocation.
-Dan
Dan,
I really don’t think there’s any mix-up or a suggestion of using language of a “lesser evil.” Everyone understands Lew’s point that the heart of the one speaking is infinitely more important than the words spoken.
But that still does not excuse a vile vocabulary, especially on the part of a minister who, whether we like it or not, IS ALWAYS held to a higher standard. That’s simply the way things are.
It seemed to me that Tony was simply saying that a foul mouth has no place in the life of a pastor. Considering our ample biblical exhortations for purity in heart and speech, as well as warnings against causing others to “stumble,” I quite agree with him.
It’s not an issue of relativity, or which words are more or less wholesome than others. Its an issue of holiness and witness.
Let’s put it this way … a pastor shouldn’t use words in his “verbal life” (hey … there’s a new concept to go along with our “thought life” :) ) that he wouldn’t use in front of a pulpit committee. If said pastor insists on the “freedom” to curse, then best of luck finding a church that will follow …
Dan,
As I told Lew on his blog – I agree with you (and him) that in terms of these “sound alike” words there is no difference – they mean the same thing, so therefore we should avoid them just as much as the other. Just because people are hypocritical in using them does not contradict the clear meaning of Scripture – it just makes most of us hypocritical and disobedient.
Lew’s exception to using profanity (it seems) is in certain circumstances like someone who stubs a toe in the dark, who being surprise yelps out a response. This language is not directed at anyone (as the argument goes) so therefore it is not unwholesome – it is merely cathartic. My response:
1) No amount of cursing gets any “pain out” – yelling and screaming nonsense is just as cathartic, and;
2) Obedience to God’s Word is really not sensed or experienced in the best of times, but in the trials we face. What better way to honor God with the Holy Spirit’s gift of “self control” than refraining from screaming obscenities than when one stubs a toe?
Rob
Maybe I was unclear. I must have been since my point has clearly been missed. I am not talking about lesser evil words or any of that. equivication is happening on a vital level of your argument. Do I think we should avoid coarse jesting or filthy speech and everything else the Bible tells us to avoid? Absolutely! Do I think you can do any of those things with the right heart? Of course not. I don’t think you can blatently disobey the Bible and be in the right. So where do we disagree? You have assumed that sh*t, f*ck, d*mn, *ss and so on fit in this category. Can you give me any reason why? Is it the sounds? Well that would be silly to say. Is it the definitions? that would also be silly since there are several synonyms to all these words that are fine by your standards to use, and if you were to say it was the definition we could never refer to butts, sex, poop, or anything else that we have a “cuss” word for. Maybe you will say the culture says these words are bad? Well just above some folks said that the culture accepts them but we have to be different than the culture. So what gives? Did Christians decide they were bad? If so we are back to square one: Why these words? Its ridiculous. Its tradition. Its trying to validate our own opinions with scripture. Give me a Biblical reason why THESE words are bad and I’ll be on board otherwise you’ve got nothing.
No, Dan, it is neither ridiculous nor tradition. And no one is trying, as far as I can tell, to validate their own ideas with Scripture.
I submit to you that this issue is entirely about good taste, holiness, witness, and conscience. You know … the entire “above reproach” emphasis that you most definitely find in Scripture. I refer you to the several verses that I quoted above as a great place to start.
If you’re looking for a biblical prohibition of specific foul words in the English language, you won’t find one (or any English words for that matter … which makes this entire line of argument a bit ridiculous). These words are “bad” because of their context, emphasis, and meaning. Indeed, even those who use them with regularity do so because they are, indeed, “bad.”
There’s Christian liberty and then there’s sin … the fruit of spiritual maturity, often times, is knowing the difference.
And when you boil it all down, to be sure, no church is going to be hot on the trail of a “potty-mouth pastor.”
Since its not the Bible that we get this list of “bad” words from because trying to defend that these words are bad from the Bible, per your own words, is a bit ridiculous, I don’t really care much about arguing over personal opinion of what words are bad and what words are good. I think I will personally stick to saying things that encourage my Christian family and avoid being coarse, filthy and all that other destructive stuff. That is why I will now opt out of this discussion. I see no point in continuing an argument of traditional culturally defined “bad” words. I don’t much care about them and now its really just about defending my own pride which is not really an act of love.
Dan,
I just chimed in on this discussion but I may be able to help clarify. First, I don’t see this dialogue as an “argument.” I think all involved are trying to gain clarity on the issue rather than debate two distinct views. All agree on what scripture says on the issue, and agree with complying with what scripture says. So the only real issue is, “are some words inherently filthy or coarse?”
To some, culture will dictate that list. In other words, if it can get a film a PG rating instead of a G, don’t use it. To others, the church or Christian peers will dictate the list. If it would offend a pastor search committee or group of elders, don’t use it. To others, personal conscience and the Holy Spirit dictate the list. But the truth is that scripture does not dictate the list and so the list is different for everyone. I must admit I am a prude and would not even say the word “poop” while preaching. In fact, I cannot think of a sermon in which I would even need to make reference to that act, but if I did, I would probably use a more academic word rather than a slang word to imply that I do not take the subject lightly or casually talk about things that may offend.
And that probably is the real issue. Are we treating subjects and words in a way as to be careful not to lead others astray or offend sensibilities of a varied congregation? Or are we using words for shock value, seeking to offend, titillate or entertain? As I seek to rightly handle the word of truth, I feel I must choose words and illustrations carefully, that I might help our congregation to be godly in their speech, to be respectful of others, and to be glorifying to God in both words and heart.
Ultimately this is an issue of respect – for God, for the preaching of the gospel and the office of pastor or preacher, for ourselves and for our listeners or readers.
And while on the subject of respect, I appreciate your tenacity in reconciling biblical passages with our own feelings about right and wrong and not mistaking propriety for godliness.
Blessings to you all.
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